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What should Walder Frey have done?


Lee-Sensei

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1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

No. They were concerned about the dornish influence in KL, just like Renly was concerned about the lannister's influence over Robert.

Renly's life was threatened..... Where as Daeron had treated his bastard siblings quite well........

 

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

Also, Stannis can't prove anything either. It's only hair colour, which is a very poor proof.

Let's not get into that argument...... But you and I both know it's not invalid.......

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Just saying, let's say if Freys were tall,strong, good looking fighter's who could reck you when you cross them......

Some of them can. Hosteen, Black Walder, Walder Rivers are all notable warriors.

Where are you getting the idea that they Freys are not strong or tall?

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Would you take the chance to look down on them for family pedegree or insert-any pedegree?

How many Houses look down on them? Can you quote all these Houses that do so?

Why have they so many great marriage alliances if they were so looked down?

When Walder speaks of the lack of respect, he is talking about the likes of Hoster, Tywin, Stannis and Jon Arryn. Men who are a rank higher than him.

"No, it was Lord Stannis," Walder Frey said irritably. "Do you think I can't tell Lord Stannis from Lord Tywin? They're both bungholes who think they're too noble to shit, but never mind about that, I know the difference.

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Lord Walder snorted with disdain. "Lord Tywin the proud and splendid, Warden of the West, Hand of the King, oh, what a great man that one is, him and his gold this and gold that and lions here and lions there. I'll wager you, he eats too many beans, he breaks wind just like me, but you'll never hear him admit it, oh, no. What's he got to be so puffed up about anyway? Only two sons, and one of them's a twisted little monster. I'll match him son for son, and I'll still have nineteen and a half left when all of his are dead!" He cackled. "If Lord Tywin wants my help, he can bloody well ask for it."

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"Well, you can't!" Lord Walder announced crisply. "Not unless I allow it, and why should I? The Tullys and the Starks have never been friends of mine." He pushed himself back in his chair and crossed his arms, smirking, waiting for her answer.

 

Walder is looked down upon by the Houses above him, the ones he sees as his peers.

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I meant Orys as the house founder......

Martial ability: Defeating Argilac...

Chivalry: Treatment of Argella...

Honor: Seems pretty honourable till the day he lost his hand..... Still mentioned to be bitter and crabby after that instead of dishonourable......

eh? How does that change my point? Have you read Fire & Blood?

No one claimed the Baratheons were without honour, but multiple of their members were pretty dishonourable.

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And I don't recall any house who have been constant do-gooders throughout their history in ASOIAF.....

Again, moving the goalposts. The Baratheons in Fire & Blood seem notably dishonourable. Have you read it? Just so I know what level of information I am dealing with in this conversation.

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Okay...... I didn't think of that this way initially due to toxic patriarchy of westeros.... But I guess its fair......

The people of this realm are obsessed with lineage. It is more than fair. We have multiple Reach Houses who proudly come from branches of Gardener women.

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Answer the question..... Would he have made king if didn't win the war on his own merits?

Not without his blood. No.

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The rebels prompted to make Robert king due to his blood ties to the previous monarch to maintain a sense of continuity........ Not the other way around..... Or else Viserys would have been crowned.....

Or the realm would have dissolved into the seven kingdoms again.

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And also a butcher's Son wouldn't just be a butcher's Son if he could lead armies to victory..........

Exactly. Robert was leading armies because of his birth. He was a great Lord with ties to the Targaryen dynasty.

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I brought the Baratheons...... Cause they are a house younger then Freys but at the top of the ruling class in AGOT.....  And nobody seems to sneer at that...... The loyalist are just bitter about it...... 

The Freys are not Overlords. It is a really poor comparison, especially because the Baratheons, on the female side, go back thousands of years. They inherited their home, sigil, words all from the Durrandons. They are a Durrandon cadet branch. They and the Freys are not in the same situation.

The Barathons still get prestige from the Durrandons.

The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed … to the horror of the Sea Snake. “Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.

Most people in Westeros recognize them as an ancient House.

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So tell me, Would people still rally behind Daemon if he wasn't a martial prodeege 

Possibly. They seemed to have despised Dareon's Dornish connections, and Aegon seemed to have called Daemon his true heir. And on the other hand, Daemon was not just a martial prodigy but charismatic and popular. These characteristics also gained him support.

But your argument seems to be saying that the Freys are not respected in the field. Where is your evidence for that?

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I get the impression that you think martial prowess is not a quality which is earned through hard work........ 

eh?

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Since it pays really well in the continent of westeros.......

Yes. It is one of the reasons why the Freys have probably advanced so much in their history.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No he did not. Edmyn Tully did, he was smart enough to be proactive in his support of the Targs, which helped them become Overlords of the Riverlands. He was also Hand for a couple of years. Kermit does not come close.

Yeah, he did, by literal word of god.

 

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House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins. The Mallisters of Seagard had a prouder lineage, the Mootons of Maidenpool were far wealthier, and Harrenhal, even cursed and blasted and in ruins, remained a more formidable castle than Riverrun, and ten times the size besides. The undistinguished history of House Tully had only been exacerbated by the character of its last two lords…but now the gods had brought a younger generation of Tullys to the fore, a pair of proud young men determined to prove themselves, Lord Kermit as a ruler and Ser Oscar as a warrior.

 

 

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Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King’s Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons.

His successors ruled as best they could after him, but Riverrun was never again as prominent as during those years. Loyal to House Targaryen through all the Blackfyre Rebellions, House Tully finally soured on the dragon kings during the madness of King Aerys II Targaryen, and Lord Hoster Tully joined Robert Baratheon and his rebels and helped bind together the alliance that brought Robert to the Iron Throne by granting the hands of his daughters to Lord Jon Arryn of the Eyrie and Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

 

Kermit was also Lord Paramount and became the unquestioned ruler of the Riverlands for starters, which is something that none of of his ancestors, including Edmyn, could boast of.

 

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There were, to be sure, other lords and famous knights amongst the host that Corlys Velaryon confronted outside the Gate of the Gods that day in 131 AC, all of them older and some of them wiser than Bloody Ben Blackwood and the brothers Tully, yet somehow the three youths had emerged from the Muddy Mess as the undoubted leaders. Bound by battle, the three had become so inseparable that their men began referring to them collectively as “the Lads.”

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is at least two Tully's who have been more significant than Kermit. While it is true that in the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons, with many realms beaten, Kermit Tully and the Riverlands were as powerful as they had ever been, or would do so, this was pretty shortlived.

Yes, that ended with Kermit's death.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

My understanding of that quote is that Kermit, in the aftermath of the Dance, the leader of an army at the gates of the Kings Landing, was in a positon of power and influence that no other Riverland Lord had been in.

But it was shortlived and he was bullied by Cregan, who arrived shortly after.

The quote does not talk only about the Dance, it talks about Kermit's entire life and that how none of his successors could ever match his achievements.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

My understanding of that quote is that Kermit, in the aftermath of the Dance, the leader of an army at the gates of the Kings Landing, was in a positon of power and influence that no other Riverland Lord had been in.

But it was shortlived and he was bullied by Cregan, who arrived shortly after.

That it's true.  Regardless, the leaders of the rest of the Realms were either some of the most powerful lords in the pre Targ Era (Greyjoys), were kings and princes until Aegon came (Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, Martells), or had supplanted the old dynasties and gotten their lands and power (Tyrells and Baratheons).

The Tullys are the most screwed with the deal.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, the Mootons as well. But that does not really strengthen the Riverlands.

The fact that the Riverlands is ravaged now, isn't really good for them, but in this joint, the Freys benefited the most, the same goes for the Tullys in the 15 years that had passed, they would have enlarged their own domains and given Hoster's participation and ties with both the crown and Winterfell and the Eyrie... as well as Walder's lack of, his position would have been unchallenged for more than  a decade.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Jon Arryn and Ned were both made Hands, his brothers given positions on the Small Council, the Lannisters a Queen, the Starks as well. 

Hoster  seems to have benefited the least of the rebels. In fact the appointment of Littlefinger to the Small Council seems like a slap in the fact to him.

Until Ned was made Hand, he benefited in nothing, that some 15 years.

Hoster's grand daughter was going to be Queen, that's a nice reward.

And to be sure, we know next to nothing for more than a decade of Robert's reign,  who was the Master of Coin before Petyr?? who was the Master of Laws before Renly?? They could have very well given to Hoster's men, even then, his grandchildren ruling over Winterfell, Riverrun and the Eyrie does seem like a nice reward. Not every political gift is given in Small Council positions. Lands, keeps,  honors, rights over hunt and fish etc, they are all ways to show gratitude and they are all fine rewards.

 

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yeah, he did, by literal word of god.

Yeah, I was aware of that quote, I even reference it.

In the aftermath of the Dance the Tullys, due to having one of the few armies left in the realm were at the height of their powers. It does not appear to have lasted long.

Do you think Kermit or Edmyn did more for their House? In terms of rise?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Kermit was also Lord Paramount and became the unquestioned ruler of the Riverlands for starters, which is something that none of of his ancestors, including Edmyn, could boast of.

 His predecessors were not the unquestioned rulers of the Riverlands?

Where is that said?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, that ended with Kermit's death.  

Did it? Where it that said?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

The quote does not talk only about the Dance, it talks about Kermit's entire life and that how none of his successors could ever match his achievements.

Possible. We have no idea how long the rest of his life is. He may well drop dead in the opening chapter of Fire and Blood II.

I'm happy to revisit this conversation when that drops, but until then its pure speculation that Kermit went on to bigger and better things or even maintained his influence he had in the aftermath of Dance.

He's barely mentioned in the last four chapters of Fire and Blood I. Can I ask what you considered his great achievements in the Fire and Blood?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

That it's true.  Regardless, the leaders of the rest of the Realms were either some of the most powerful lords in the pre Targ Era (Greyjoys), were kings and princes until Aegon came (Lannisters, Arryns, Starks, Martells), or had supplanted the old dynasties and gotten their lands and power (Tyrells and Baratheons).

Yep. The lads achievements were impressive.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

The fact that the Riverlands is ravaged now, isn't really good for them, but in this joint, the Freys benefited the most, the same goes for the Tullys in the 15 years that had passed, they would have enlarged their own domains

There is not really a lot to show this is true. If anything Hoster seems to have lost his ambition after the death of his wife and the loss of his daughters to other realms.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

and given Hoster's participation and ties with both the crown and Winterfell and the Eyrie... as well as Walder's lack of, his position would have been unchallenged for more than  a decade.

Yes, unchallenged. But I don't seem much evidence of expansion.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Until Ned was made Hand, he benefited in nothing, that some 15 years.

But still has beneifitted more than Hoster. My point was clear.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hoster's grand daughter was going to be Queen, that's a nice reward.

Yes. A bigger reward for the Starks though, right?

My point is that the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters and Baratheons all benefited more than the Tully's did from Robert being crowned.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

And to be sure, we know next to nothing for more than a decade of Robert's reign,  who was the Master of Coin before Petyr?? who was the Master of Laws before Renly??

Good question. Pretty sure it was neither Hoster or Edmure.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

They could have very well given to Hoster's men,

They could have done. And if it is revealed that they were in a later edition of the book I will gladly revisit this conversation with you and reaccess my view.

But up until then I have to go on what has been said. From all the information we have right now, it looks like the Tullys came out shorthanded on this.

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

even then, his grandchildren ruling over Winterfell, Riverrun and the Eyrie does seem like a nice reward.

Sure. Do you think that changes my point at all?

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Not every political gift is given in Small Council positions. Lands, keeps,  honors, rights over hunt and fish etc, they are all ways to show gratitude and they are all fine rewards.

Yeah, I never claimed they were. Again, I can only go on what the books have said.

 

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On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, I was aware of that quote, I even reference it.

In the aftermath of the Dance the Tullys, due to having one of the few armies left in the realm were at the height of their powers. It does not appear to have lasted long.

It appears to have last all of Kermit's life. Since it says that his offspring didn't do as good as him.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Do you think Kermit or Edmyn did more for their House? In terms of rise?

In terms of rise, Edmyn Tully, in terms of power Kermit.

Edmyn made the Tullys Lord Paramounts of the Trident, but even then,  even duing his two years as Hand, he was still a newcomer to power and his power over his riverlords was still weak.

Kermit received that legacy and united the Riverlands behind him and made the Tullys a power to be reckoned with... inhis own lifetime only.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

His predecessors were not the unquestioned rulers of the Riverlands?

Where is that said?

Nominally only.

 

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Then as now, the riverlords were a fractious, quarrelsome lot. Kermit Tully, Lord of Riverrun, was their liege lord, and nominally commander of their host…but it must be remembered that his lordship was but nineteen years of age, and “green as summer grass,” as the northmen might say. His brother Oscar, who had slain three men during the Muddy Mess and been knighted on the battlefield afterward, was still greener, and cursed with the sort of prickly pride so common in second sons. House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins. The Mallisters of Seagard had a prouder lineage, the Mootons of Maidenpool were far wealthier, and Harrenhal, even cursed and blasted and in ruins, remained a more formidable castle than Riverrun, and ten times the size besides. The undistinguished history of House Tully had only been exacerbated by the character of its last two lords…but now the gods had brought a younger generation of Tullys to the fore, a pair of proud young men determined to prove themselves, Lord Kermit as a ruler and Ser Oscar as a warrior.

 

I imagine the Tully's situation being similar as the Capetian dynasty was until Philip Augustus became King, they were nominally in charge but their their vassals, more often than not far more powerful than them, were always doing their own thing and their interests and loyalties had little in common with their liege. 

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Did it? Where it that said?

 

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Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King’s Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons. 

His successors ruled as best they could after him, but Riverrun was never again as prominent as during those years.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Possible. We have no idea how long the rest of his life is. He may well drop dead in the opening chapter of Fire and Blood II.

I'm happy to revisit this conversation when that drops, but until then its pure speculation that Kermit went on to bigger and better things or even maintained his influence he had in the aftermath of Dance.

He's barely mentioned in the last four chapters of Fire and Blood I. Can I ask what you considered his great achievements in the Fire and Blood?

We don't know what he did or how he did it, we do know however that whatever he did was enough for Yandel to say that he was the greatest of all the Tully lords.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

There is not really a lot to show this is true. If anything Hoster seems to have lost his ambition after the death of his wife and the loss of his daughters to other realms.

He forced Jon Arryn to marry his soiled daughter even after Ned was bethrothed to his eldest daughter as a price for his support. He sure seems repentant in his final days but there is nothing to say that the man didn't enjoy his victory until he fell sick.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, unchallenged. But I don't seem much evidence of expansion.

We know that some if not all  loyalists in the Riverlands lost land in favor of those who supported Robert's quest from the get go,  we don't know who benefited the most, but it stands to reason that Hoster took the lion share.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Possible. We have no idea how long the rest of his life is. He may well drop dead in the opening chapter of Fire and Blood II.

I'm happy to revisit this conversation when that drops, but until then its pure speculation that Kermit went on to bigger and better things or even maintained his influence he had in the aftermath of Dance.

He's barely mentioned in the last four chapters of Fire and Blood I. Can I ask what you considered his great achievements in the Fire and Blood?

True, but he didn't benefit in nothing for more than 15 years and his own men never saw a reward. At least we know that there were lands in the Riverlands to give.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. A bigger reward for the Starks though, right?

My point is that the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters and Baratheons all benefited more than the Tully's did from Robert being crowned.

Depends of how you look it.

The Lannisters ofc, because they got a huge prize out of nothing, ditto with the Baratheons since they became royals, i  cannot say about the Arryns or the Starks, if you are merely talking about political appointments, then sure. But there is other benefits than that, Hoster got Winterfell and the Eyrie, plus whatever lands and honors and rights he cared to ask for in the Riverlands, and he, at least for a while, became unchallenged in his own domains. That seems as good as a reward as Jon's or Ned's.

And Sansa my be just an asset for theTullys as much as for the Starks.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

They could have done. And if it is revealed that they were in a later edition of the book I will gladly revisit this conversation with you and reaccess my view.

Fair enough.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:29 PM, Bernie Mac said:

They could have done. And if it is revealed that they were in a later edition of the book I will gladly revisit this conversation with you and reaccess my view.

As i said, it depends of the point of view, whether all you consider as reward is political appointments or not.

I certainly don't think that.

I think that in medieval setting, as in other setting.  Political can only be seen as a reward for two reasons, either one has a natural liking for ruling and the highest the better or one seek to increase their own sphere of influence with that and pretend to use that position to get more lands and honors and money for him and his partisans... And more positions to repeat the cycle. But Hoster Tully already had the latter without troubling himself of his family without having to mananage Robert's realm, I say that only Tywin got a sweeter deal than him, but Tywin us usually very lucky anyway.

 

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On 8/2/2020 at 3:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

eh? How does that change my point

Doesn't change your point. But it doesn't change my point either which you misunderstood.....

It doesn't change what his ancestors did afterwards...... But the precedent set by him is a solid one to scrutinize by other "great" houses without dissing their own .....

 

On 8/2/2020 at 3:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Have you read Fire & Blood?

I digress l've read somewhat the first volume Sons of the Dragon.....

 

On 8/2/2020 at 3:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Again, moving the goalposts. The Baratheons in Fire & Blood seem notably dishonourable. Have you read it? Just so I know what level of information I am dealing with in this conversation.

I do know that Rogar Baratheon tried to do away Jahearys as king when he married his sister Alyssane....Upfront . I also know that Rogar's brother Borris declared war on him and joined the dornish..... Upfront...... I wouldn't call Rogar dishonourable cause I myself object to the marriage..... And Borris is bitter he can't get SE... So he declares war on his kin openly... not too dishonourable.... But not a honourable motive/intent either.....

Are there any prominent Baratheons besides them? And do their deeds match that of the depravity of Maegor?

On 8/2/2020 at 3:33 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Exactly. Robert was leading armies because of his birth. He was a great Lord with ties to the Targaryen dynasty.

Ahh..... If let's say a butcher's Son is capable of leading armies to victory as Robert is/was capable of...... Then I don't think he would simply remain a butcher's Son for long...... Get it?

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On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

It appears to have last all of Kermit's life. Since it says that his offspring didn't do as good as him.

That does not mean anything.

If Bill Clinton does nothing for the rest of his life he will still have reached the height of influence for his family powers and influence.  He does not have to die as President for that to happen, him being President two decades ago is still the height of his families power.

So no, of course none of his descendants did as good as him, he was one of the major players in the short aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

In terms of rise, Edmyn Tully, in terms of power Kermit.

No, in terms of power it was Edmyn. He was the Hand of the King, co-ruler of the land. At best Kermit equalled that.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

Edmyn made the Tullys Lord Paramounts of the Trident, but even then,  even duing his two years as Hand, he was still a newcomer to power and his power over his riverlords was still weak.

Was Kermit's that much difference?

The difference between Kermit and Edmyn, from the information I can gather, is that Kermit rules a Riverlands that, in the aftermath of the Dance, is one of the powers of Westeros.

His regions victories over the Lannisters and the Stormlands is something that no other Riverlands ruler has really seen.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

Kermit received that legacy and united the Riverlands behind him and made the Tullys a power to be reckoned with... inhis own lifetime only.

More so due to the circumstances of the other regions

  • The North suffers huge under the current Winter, widespread famine
  • The Westerlands lost a huge amount of their forces, Johanna, as formidable as she was, was more defender than attacker in terms of political influence
  • The Iron Islands was about to suffer pretty hard from the Westerlands, with the help from the Reach, striking back
  • The Baratheons were pretty much disgraced. Borrus killed fighting against Kermit, his oldest daughter Cassandra put on trial and made to marry beneath her station, Maris joining the Silent Sisters, Floris would die young and the Stormlands left to the baby Olyvar, under the regency of his mother
  • The Vale was in civil war after Jeyne's death, with no clear consensus on which Arryn branch should rule. The Crown had to intervene
  • Lyonel Tyrell another infant too young to be a significant influence

 

Kermit's rise was an indictment of just how poor of a state Westeros was in.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

 

Nominally only.

Has that really changed?

GRRM: The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

I imagine the Tully's situation being similar as the Capetian dynasty was until Philip Augustus became King, they were nominally in charge but their their vassals, more often than not far more powerful than them, were always doing their own thing and their interests and loyalties had little in common with their liege. 

But that is still true in the aftermath of the Dance.

House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins.

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

We don't know what he did or how he did it, we do know however that whatever he did was enough for Yandel to say that he was the greatest of all the Tully lords.

Did he? I know he said he brought the Tullys to the height of their power, but when does he say that was the Greatest of all lord Tully's?

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

He forced Jon Arryn to marry his soiled daughter

How did he force him? It was a mutually beneficial agreement.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

even after Ned was bethrothed to his eldest daughter as a price for his support.

A Stark was already betrothed to his daughter before the war.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

He sure seems repentant in his final days but there is nothing to say that the man didn't enjoy his victory until he fell sick.

Sure, and when that is later revealed I am happy to go back over this with you.

But right now we have no evidence to suggest that he did better or as good as the other. The evidence we do have suggests he did worse than them. Why is this so hard for you to accept?

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

 

We know that some if not all  loyalists in the Riverlands lost land in favor of those who supported Robert's quest from the get go,  we don't know who benefited the most, but it stands to reason that Hoster took the lion share.

Does it? It is not reflected in the books though is it. When Cat talks about her father's power there seems to be a pretty obvious question mark over it

All of them were bannermen to the Tullys, their swords sworn to the service of Riverrun. Catelyn wondered if that would be enough, if it came to war. Her father was the staunchest man who'd ever lived, and she had no doubt that he would call his banners … but would the banners come?

It does not sound like the Tully's have the type of power like the Starks or Lannisters do.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

True, but he didn't benefit in nothing for more than 15 years and his own men never saw a reward. At least we know that there were lands in the Riverlands to give.

True, Darry lost half its lands. But there is no indication that it was the Tullys who gained them. Hoster's brother left for the Vale, his only son not quite an adult. Which Tully was given these extra lands to have?

It may have been given to Hoster, but as already mentioned, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was his price

"Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Garlan was not a Lord when he was given lands, neither was Philip Foote. It may well be that certain warriors who pleased Robert were given those lands rather than Hoster. But without knowing it seems a pointless conversation.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

Depends of how you look it.

No, not from the information we have.

 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:23 PM, frenin said:

 

And Sansa my be just an asset for theTullys as much as for the Starks.

No, not just as much. She is more an asset for Stark. This should be clear to pretty much everyone.

Is Margaery as much as asset for House Hightower as she is Tyrell? When Robert became King did that benefit Estermont as much as it benefited House Baratheon? Was Cat marrying  the Lord of the North as much a benefit for House Whent as it was House Tully?

 

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Doesn't change your point. But it doesn't change my point either which you misunderstood.....

By all means clarify. Your points are not clear.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

It doesn't change what his ancestors did afterwards...... But the precedent set by him is a solid one to scrutinize by other "great" houses without dissing their own .....

Dude, you are talking in circles. Can you please clarify your position and why the only House you are comparing House Frey to is House Baratheon?

What other Houses have a similar military record to the Lords of the Storm?

1 hour ago, Orm said:

 

I digress l've read somewhat the first volume Sons of the Dragon.....

Please read it. It's a great book and will help you engage in conversation on here.

It seems weird that you are speaking with such certainty and authority on the history of House Baratheon when you've not bothered to read Fire and Blood.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

 

I do know that Rogar Baratheon tried to do away Jahearys as king when he married his sister Alyssane....Upfront . I also know that Rogar's brother Borris declared war on him and joined the dornish..... Upfront...... I wouldn't call Rogar dishonourable cause I myself object to the marriage..... And Borris is bitter he can't get SE... So he declares war on his kin openly... not too dishonourable.... But not a honourable motive/intent either.....

Are there any prominent Baratheons besides them?

Yes. The Baratheons during the Dance and the aftermath of the Dance were not honourable, they were just as treasonous as Rogar and his brothers.

Nor was the first Hand when it came to treating Prisoners or how he wanted to treat the Princess of Dorne.

House Baratheon is pretty great, but a bastion of honour they are not.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

 

 

And do their deeds match that of the depravity of Maegor?

You are making the same bad argument again.

1) Saying the Freys are not respected in Westeros because they don't match up to the martial ability of the Baratheons is a bad argument. Hundreds of Houses, the majority of them, don't hold up to this standard.

2) Saying someone can only be dishonourable if their deeds match Maegor is just dumb.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

Ahh..... If let's say a butcher's Son is capable of leading armies to victory as Robert is/was capable of...... Then I don't think he would simply remain a butcher's Son for long...... Get it?

eh? A bastards' son would never be given the opportunity. That is the point! It is all about blood in this world. A butcher's son with Robert's capabilities would be at best a man at arms or freerider serving a knight of a lord who was in service to Robert.

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On 8/2/2020 at 2:08 AM, Orm said:

Just saying, let's say if Freys were tall,strong, good looking fighter's who could reck you when you cross them...... Would you take the chance to look down on them for family pedegree or insert-any pedegree?

 

I meant Orys as the house founder......

Martial ability: Defeating Argilac...

Chivalry: Treatment of Argella...

Honor: Seems pretty honourable till the day he lost his hand..... Still mentioned to be bitter and crabby after that instead of dishonourable......

And I don't recall any house who have been constant do-gooders throughout their history in ASOIAF.....

Okay...... I didn't think of that this way initially due to toxic patriarchy of westeros.... But I guess its fair......

 

Answer the question..... Would he have made king if didn't win the war on his own merits?

 

The rebels prompted to make Robert king due to his blood ties to the previous monarch to maintain a sense of continuity........ Not the other way around..... Or else Viserys would have been crowned.....

And also a butcher's Son wouldn't just be a butcher's Son if he could lead armies to victory..........

I brought the Baratheons...... Cause they are a house younger then Freys but at the top of the ruling class in AGOT.....  And nobody seems to sneer at that...... The loyalist are just bitter about it...... 

 

 

Okay.... I accept I may have been short sighted when making my case on a side by side comparison.....

 

So tell me, Would people still rally behind Daemon if he wasn't a martial prodeege 

And looked "Half a God"

 

I get the impression that you think martial prowess is not a quality which is earned through hard work........ 

Since it pays really well in the continent of westeros.......

1) Forrest Frey was a powerful knight in his time and the art from the World of Ice and Fire book, depicts him as being handsome.

2) The Baratheons are Durrandons. They go back thousands of years. They have royal blood.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Can you please clarify your position and why the only House you are comparing House Frey to is House Baratheon

The age and foundation....... And how it affects one and not the other......

Although I already told you I may have been short sighted when making a side by side case.......

The idea came as a thought to me because we know of cases how these two houses dealt with broken bethrothals/oaths.......

IE: Red wedding and Lyonels Rebellion....

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

House Baratheon is pretty great, but a bastion of honour they are not.

Never claimed them to be or any house in particular..... Maybe but the Arryns....

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

) Saying someone can only be dishonourable if their deeds match Maegor is just dumb.

No... I said it just to gauge the degree of depravity.....

It's only house Targaryen exclusive it seems.....

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. The Baratheons during the Dance and the aftermath of the Dance were not honourable, they were just as treasonous as Rogar and his brothers

So you are pro-blacks?

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1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

The Baratheons are Durrandons. They go back thousands of years. They have royal blood.

They are officially not Durrandons......

You can say Baratheons are Heirs to the Durrandons..... Since House Durrandon can only be resurrected through house Baratheon.....

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Just now, Orm said:

They are officially not Durrandons......

You can say Baratheons are Heirs to the Durrandons..... Since House Durrandon can only be resurrected through house Baratheon.....

I believe in-universe they're accepted as being a continuation of House Durrandon, I wouldn't argue that they're the same house but people in the books seem to accept that they are. 

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That does not mean anything.

If Bill Clinton does nothing for the rest of his life he will still have reached the height of influence for his family powers and influence.  He does not have to die as President for that to happen, him being President two decades ago is still the height of his families power.

So no, of course none of his descendants did as good as him, he was one of the major players in the short aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons.

Hoster Tully was one of the major players of the Robellion and he stayed as one of the most powerful lords in the Realm for 15 years... And he still didn't do as good  as Kermit.

You seem determined to let go your belief that Kermit was just prominent for 15 minutes, yet the text keeps disagreeing with you.

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, in terms of power it was Edmyn. He was the Hand of the King, co-ruler of the land. At best Kermit equalled that.

He wasn't co ruler of the land, Aegon and Visenya ran the show,  there is nothing we can say the man just did, he simly was there.

And again, the text still disagrees with you.  The Tullys under Edmyn weren't as powerful as the Tullys under Kermit.

Both Glydan and Yandel know that Edmyn Tully was Hand of the King, yet they still put him with the "undistinguished history of House Tully", yet both of them single out Kermit.

 

 

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Was Kermit's that much difference?

The difference between Kermit and Edmyn, from the information I can gather, is that Kermit rules a Riverlands that, in the aftermath of the Dance, is one of the powers of Westeros.

His regions victories over the Lannisters and the Stormlands is something that no other Riverlands ruler has really seen.

 

There is a hundred years of difference between them, give or take. The Tullys would've been more settled even if still weaker than their own bannermen.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

More so due to the circumstances of the other regions

  • The North suffers huge under the current Winter, widespread famine
  • The Westerlands lost a huge amount of their forces, Johanna, as formidable as she was, was more defender than attacker in terms of political influence
  • The Iron Islands was about to suffer pretty hard from the Westerlands, with the help from the Reach, striking back
  • The Baratheons were pretty much disgraced. Borrus killed fighting against Kermit, his oldest daughter Cassandra put on trial and made to marry beneath her station, Maris joining the Silent Sisters, Floris would die young and the Stormlands left to the baby Olyvar, under the regency of his mother
  • The Vale was in civil war after Jeyne's death, with no clear consensus on which Arryn branch should rule. The Crown had to intervene
  • Lyonel Tyrell another infant too young to be a significant influence

 

Kermit's rise was an indictment of just how poor of a state Westeros was in.

 

I don't know about that, the Stormlands and the Baratheons are the only ones that were very powerful and prominent before the Dance and suffered pretty hard after the war.

 

- The North was never as powerful and prominent as the Riverlands, until Lord Rickard, the Stark policy was to ignore the South and mind their own business. Famine or not famine, that wouldn't have changed nothing.

- The Ironborn ignored the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Seven Kingdoms ignored them.

- The Riverlands lost even more forces than the Westerlands,  whose loses were pretty light compared to what the Riverlands suffered, even then, the Tullys traditionally overshadowed the Lannisters in prominence.

- The civil war in the Vale lasted less than two years.

- I'm pretty sure Lyonel Tyrell had regents.

 

The state of the Riverlands were as bad as any other kingdom after the war, the Riverlands were the lands that suffered the most for supporting a side, yet Kermit still rose to prominence. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Has that really changed?

GRRM: The riverlands are rich and fertile and populous, but suffer from divided leadership and a lack of natural boundaries.

In the long run?? Not much, during his reign, I'd say it did.

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But that is still true in the aftermath of the Dance.

House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins.

In the aftermath of the Dance Kermit's reign had just begun and even then we can still see that he was going to be different.

 

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The undistinguished history of House Tully had only been exacerbated by the character of its last two lords…but now the gods had brought a younger generation of Tullys to the fore, a pair of proud young men determined to prove themselves, Lord Kermit as a ruler and Ser Oscar as a warrior.

 

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There were, to be sure, other lords and famous knights amongst the host that Corlys Velaryon confronted outside the Gate of the Gods that day in 131 AC, all of them older and some of them wiser than Bloody Ben Blackwood and the brothers Tully, yet somehow the three youths had emerged from the Muddy Mess as the undoubted leaders. Bound by battle, the three had become so inseparable that their men began referring to them collectively as “the Lads.”

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did he? I know he said he brought the Tullys to the height of their power, but when does he say that was the Greatest of all lord Tully's?

You're arguing semantics,  in Westeros power is directed tied to greatness, so when someone says that. Your reign was the apex of your family's power and that none of your descendents matched you. You were greater than those who came before you and those who came after you.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How did he force him? It was a mutually beneficial agreement.

I doubt that marrying a soiled girl benefited Jon Arryn in much and usually, Ned marrying Cat should have been enough to seal Hoster's participation. Yet Hoster rose his price and forced Jon Arryn to meet him there.

 

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Catelyn rose, threw on a robe, and descended the steps to the darkened solar to stand over her father. A sense of helpless dread filled her. "Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."
Small wonder her sister's marriage had been so loveless. The Arryns were proud, and prickly of their honor. Lord Jon might wed Lysa to bind the Tullys to the cause of the rebellion, and in hopes of a son, but it would have been hard for him to love a woman who came to his bed soiled and unwilling. He would have been kind, no doubt; dutiful, yes; but Lysa needed warmth.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

A Stark was already betrothed to his daughter before the war.

And that Stark happened to die and his death sparked a war. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure, and when that is later revealed I am happy to go back over this with you.

But right now we have no evidence to suggest that he did better or as good as the other. The evidence we do have suggests he did worse than them. Why is this so hard for you to accept?

Because we have no such evidence and your entire point is based on him political appointments.

 

 

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does it? It is not reflected in the books though is it. When Cat talks about her father's power there seems to be a pretty obvious question mark over it

All of them were bannermen to the Tullys, their swords sworn to the service of Riverrun. Catelyn wondered if that would be enough, if it came to war. Her father was the staunchest man who'd ever lived, and she had no doubt that he would call his banners … but would the banners come?

It does not sound like the Tully's have the type of power like the Starks or Lannisters do.

Since we're not told how were the Tully lands before the war and how were after nor were're ever told what happened to the lands that were taken there except that were given  to Robert's partisans, i'll say it's not a wild guess.

 

And when have i said that the Tully's have the type of power like the Starks or Lannisters do?? Mind you, that the type of power is also dependant of the Lord, Robb suffered dessunion while Ned didn't,  Tytos's rule was an anarchy while Tywin's was an iron grip.

IIRC all the banners bar the Freys did came, and one of Walder's reasons to ignore the call is that Hoster is sick and dying.

 

Quote

For a moment her anger flared. "If you were strong enough to climb your own battlements, Lord Frey, you would see that my son has twenty thousand men outside your walls."
"They'll be twenty thousand fresh corpses when Lord Tywin gets here," the old man shot back. "Don't you try and frighten me, my lady. Your husband's in some traitor's cell under the Red Keep, your father's sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister's got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours? I'll match you son for son, and I'll still have eighteen when yours are all dead."

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

True, Darry lost half its lands. But there is no indication that it was the Tullys who gained them. Hoster's brother left for the Vale, his only son not quite an adult. Which Tully was given these extra lands to have?

It may have been given to Hoster, but as already mentioned, Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn was his price

"Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

Garlan was not a Lord when he was given lands, neither was Philip Foote. It may well be that certain warriors who pleased Robert were given those lands rather than Hoster. But without knowing it seems a pointless conversation.

There is no indication that no one got them, Hoster could have gotten the lands, so could have his son, age had little to do with that,

Lysa was his price for joining the war, yet that doesn't mean he could not have asked for more and Robert would certainly please Hoster before those warriors who pleased him.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, not from the information we have.

Yes, from the information we have yes. 

As i said, not all the rewards are political in nature.  

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, not just as much. She is more an asset for Stark. This should be clear to pretty much everyone.

Is Margaery as much as asset for House Hightower as she is Tyrell? When Robert became King did that benefit Estermont as much as it benefited House Baratheon? Was Cat marrying  the Lord of the North as much a benefit for House Whent as it was House Tully?

She is an asset to whomever she is closer and whomever she likes best, it's entirely up for the Tullys to play that card.

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1 hour ago, Tikhunt said:

I believe in-universe they're accepted as being a continuation of House Durrandon, I wouldn't argue that they're the same house but people in the books seem to accept that they are. 

And blood is what matters.

"Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."
Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."
"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure."
 
By any sensible metric House Frey, with their greater military, wealth and lands are the better House. Yet the nobility are overly concerned with lineage and blood and that is why the Westerlings, even with merchant blood, will always seem to be more prestigious than the Freys.
 
And for Walder Frey to find out that his army and daughter/granddaughter was good enough for Robb Stark the heir of the Lordship of Winterfell but not good enough for Robb the King of the North must have been infuriating. Every victory Robb had in the War of the Five Kings was with Frey's assistance, yet when it came to it Robb felt that he was too good for them (from Walder's perspective).
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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And blood is what matters.

"Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."
Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."
"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure."
 
By any sensible metric House Frey, with their greater military, wealth and lands are the better House. Yet the nobility are overly concerned with lineage and blood and that is why the Westerlings, even with merchant blood, will always seem to be more prestigious than the Freys.
 
And for Walder Frey to find out that his army and daughter/granddaughter was good enough for Robb Stark the heir of the Lordship of Winterfell but not good enough for Robb the King of the North must have been infuriating. Every victory Robb had in the War of the Five Kings was with Frey's assistance, yet when it came to it Robb felt that he was too good for them (from Walder's perspective).

:agree:

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On 8/3/2020 at 6:28 PM, frenin said:

Hoster Tully was one of the major players of the Robellion

Major? Just about. Of the rebel Lords he was the least important.

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and he stayed as one of the most powerful lords in the Realm for 15 years...

Where is that claimed? There is nothing in the books to back this up.

He may have been, but we simply don't know. I'm here to talk about what we do know and in the last 15 years it is debatable if Hoster was one of the 10 or even 20 most powerful/influential Lords in the realm.

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And he still didn't do as good  as Kermit.

He still did not raise as high as Kermit.

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You seem determined to let go your belief that Kermit was just prominent for 15 minutes, yet the text keeps disagreeing with you.

Keeps? Quote all these times as it seems you are being hugely hyperbolic.

As far as we know he was only really prominent in the immediate aftermath of the Dance. He had a say in who the next monarch was, if the war would continue and his lords were used to police some parts of the Kingdom, such as the Vale civil war.

But this far we have no idea if Kermit has a significant future. But given the lack of people named Kermit (or some other variation of his name) I have my doubts about just how influential he was.

As it stands we both don't know about his future. I've said this to you in my last three posts. You seem determined to say thay we do.

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He wasn't co ruler of the land, Aegon and Visenya ran the show,  there is nothing we can say the man just did, he simly was there.

He was the Hand. The Hand is the co-ruler. You seem pretty desperate to downplay his role. Name all the things Kemit did in his life. Since that is the standard you have set, quote away.

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And again, the text still disagrees with you.  The Tullys under Edmyn weren't as powerful as the Tullys under Kermit.

The Tullys under Edmyn started off far lower on the totem poll than they did under Kermit. Does this really need explaining to you again?

Edmyn did more for his House than Kemit has done thus far in Fire and Blood.

Now that might change, but it seems hard to see how he can do that given Edmyn took them from Lords to Overlords.

Quote

Both Glydan and Yandel know that Edmyn Tully was Hand of the King, yet they still put him with the "undistinguished history of House Tully", yet both of them single out Kermit.

Yes. He killed the Lord of the Stormlands, defeated the last 'Green' army and had a say in how the new government was formed.

Have I missed anything out? By all means tell me everything kermit did? If your answer is you don't know then why insist on arguing about it

On 8/3/2020 at 6:28 PM, frenin said:

There is a hundred years of difference between them, give or take. The Tullys would've been more settled even if still weaker than their own bannermen.

Any evidence for this or is this all speculation on your part?

Dude, I am more than happy to have this conversation when we have more information but so far you are just adamant that your head cannon is right and can't possibly be wrong.

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I don't know about that, the Stormlands and the Baratheons are the only ones that were very powerful and prominent before the Dance and suffered pretty hard after the war.

No. the entire realm suffered. I don't know how you can argue agains that.

Quote

 

- The North was never as powerful and prominent as the Riverlands, until Lord Rickard, the Stark policy was to ignore the South and mind their own business. Famine or not famine, that wouldn't have changed nothing.

The North was never as powerful and prominent as the Riverlands? Citation. Some evidence to back this up.

Though you are missing the point. The Starks during the big famine after the Dance are going to be significantly weaker than they normally are.

Quote

- The Ironborn ignored the Seven Kingdoms as much as the Seven Kingdoms ignored them.

Again, missing the point. They, according to Fire and Blood, suffered hugely. Dalton and his heirs being murdered, thousands dying after the Lannisters and the Reach banded together to fight them, taking their stocks that led to thousands more starving.

Iron Islands was hugely weak in the aftermath of the Dance

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- The Riverlands lost even more forces than the Westerlands,

Citation?

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  whose loses were pretty light compared to what the Riverlands suffered, even then,

Citation?

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the Tullys traditionally overshadowed the Lannisters in prominence.

No, that does not seem right. The Riverlands might have had more influence with the Crown, but that does not make them more prominent.

Quote

- The civil war in the Vale lasted less than two years.

Yes. And they lost power and given there was a civil war to decide the new ruler the ruling Arryns will have ruled a split Vale.

Quote

- I'm pretty sure Lyonel Tyrell had regents.

He did, but he was a child and his regents clearly did not want to be involved in the greater political machinations of the land.

More importantly the Reach had divided leadership. They Tyrells had a Lord who was in an unpopular relationship with his dead father's wife, the Peakes were soon to be disgraced.

 

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The state of the Riverlands were as bad as any other kingdom after the war,

But the strength was not. They were one of the two last standing armies.

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the Riverlands were the lands that suffered the most for supporting a side, yet Kermit still rose to prominence. 

I don't know if that is true, the Reach lost an entire town, as did the Crownlands. Lannisport was sacked and the Westerlands attacked.

The North was not hit by the war, but was hit really hard by the winter, the Stormlands army was defeated by the Lads and the Baratheons led by a child, two of his four sisters disgraced with plots for power.

The Iron Islands suffered both from war and famine, the ruling Greyjoys of that time murdered, gelded and overthrown.

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In the long run?? Not much, during his reign, I'd say it did.

We don't know what happened in his long run though. The aftermath of the Dance may well be his peak.

Not sure why that is so hard for you to admit.

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In the aftermath of the Dance Kermit's reign had just begun and even then we can still see that he was going to be different.

Sure. I am happy to admit that he could go onto better things, take his House to even greater heights. I am happy to come back to this conversation when Fire and Blood II comes out and issue Mea Culpas.

Can you do the same? Admit that you don't know if Kermit will do anything of significance later in life? If he will even live long after the events of Fire and Blood I

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You're arguing semantics, 

No I am not. You made a claim which was untrue. Don't try to walk it back and claim it is a semantics issue. You claimed that Yandel called him the Greatest of all Tully lords and when asked to back this claim up are crying semantics.

 

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in Westeros power is directed tied to greatness, so when someone says that. Your reign was the apex of your family's power and that none of your descendents matched you. You were greater than those who came before you and those who came after you.

Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King's Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons.

 

It seems to be specifically talking about the Dance, were they were one of the major players.

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I doubt that marrying a soiled girl benefited Jon Arryn in much and usually,

We know it did. Cat explains why it did.

You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

It benefited Jon greatly.

Quote

 

Ned marrying Cat should have been enough to seal Hoster's participation.

According to Cat it was not. Do you have a better source than Cat Tully?

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Yet Hoster rose his price and forced Jon Arryn to meet him there.

Rose? Can you clarify and provide evidence for this new price?

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And that Stark happened to die and his death sparked a war. 

And due to the customs of the land, his younger brother was honour bound to make the deal.

 

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Because we have no such evidence and your entire point is based on him political appointments.

eh?

What would you base it on. What evidence do you have? I've given mine, if you have superior evidence from the books then I am happy to hear it. Please quote away. Don't bear around the bush for another 10 posts, supply the evidence in your next post please.

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Since we're not told how were the Tully lands before the war and how were after nor were're ever told what happened to the lands that were taken there except that were given  to Robert's partisans, i'll say it's not a wild guess.

It is a guess though, can you not at least admit that?

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And when have i said that the Tully's have the type of power like the Starks or Lannisters do??

No one claimed you did. I was making a statement which is related to the conversation, I'm glad you agree with it.

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Mind you, that the type of power is also dependant of the Lord, Robb suffered dessunion while Ned didn't,  Tytos's rule was an anarchy while Tywin's was an iron grip.

True.

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IIRC all the banners bar the Freys did came, and one of Walder's reasons to ignore the call is that Hoster is sick and dying.

 

Well no, this is very different as the Lannisters were attacking the Riverlands, sans the Frey lands. They really did not have much choice, the Lannisters kind of forced their hand. Genuine blunder by Tywin as under different circumstances some of those Houses may have been royalists.

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There is no indication that no one got them, Hoster could have gotten the lands, so could have his son, age had little to do with that,

Well we know Edmure did not get them. He's an heir, he is not a lord in his own right like Garlan was after he was awarded lands in the aftermath of the Battle of Blackwater.

Again, happy to revisit this conversation when more information is given, but right now it seems pretty clear that the Tullys did not get as mucgh as the other Rebel Houses.

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Lysa was his price for joining the war, yet that doesn't mean he could not have asked for more

Sure, but right now all we are told is that the price was Jon Arryn. Anything else is pointless speculation designed to prolong a pointless argument.

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and Robert would certainly please Hoster before those warriors who pleased him.

Would he? We have no idea Robert's relationship with either Hoster or those warriors.  More speculation built on nothing from the text.

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Yes, from the information we have yes. 

Not at all. Please feel free to quote it.

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As i said, not all the rewards are political in nature.  

True. Not sure I've argued differently. We are both in agreement on this.

 

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She is an asset to whomever she is closer and whomever she likes best, it's entirely up for the Tullys to play that card.

No, you are being ridiculous now. Sansa Stark, raised at Winterfell, with Stark siblings is a greater asset to House Stark than she is House Tully. It is ridiculous to argue otherwise. I sincerely believe you are now just arguing for the sake of arguing as some of your points I genuinely think you don't believe.

 

  • How much time has Sanse spent at Riverrun?
  • How many times has she met Lord Tully and his heir Edmure?
  • Who does she prefer, Ned and Robb or Hoster and Edmure?
  • In a theoretical falling out between Edmure and Ned whose side do you think Queen Sansa would take?
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On 8/4/2020 at 8:28 AM, S. D said:

Walder Frey could have just called his army back and refused to support Robb.

Why'd he kill him.

Because in Walder's eyes Robb had fucked him over. Robb agreed a price, for that price

  • Walder rebelled against the Crown, making enemies of the King and Tywin
  • Gave him more men than any of his Northern lords. Every victory Robb had was with Freys by his side
  • Sacrificed a decent portion of his men in the war, especially in the Battle of the Green Fork, a planned loss by Robb to distract Tywin so Robb could capture Riverrun
  • Lost his heir, the man he had been grooming for 50 years
  • Had a grandson killed who was prisoner at Robb
  • Gave Robb two hostages, which the text implies Roose was using against Walder

 

On top of that

  • Stung his pride. The Freys are a powerful House who are looked upon as upstarts. Robb not only reneged on his deal, he did so for a House with a fraction of the Frey's power but better blood. Basically reminding Walder that the older Houses of Westeros would never respect the Freys
  • Walder was ancient; letting Robb go would mean he'd likely never see Robb defeated, which Walder was owed for Robb's betrayal
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On 8/3/2020 at 11:31 AM, Bernie Mac said:

And blood is what matters.

"Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."
Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."
"All of which will only salt Lord Walder's wounds. It has always rankled him that older houses look down on the Freys as upstarts. This insult is not the first he's borne, to hear him tell it. Jon Arryn was disinclined to foster his grandsons, and my father refused the offer of one of his daughters for Edmure."
 
By any sensible metric House Frey, with their greater military, wealth and lands are the better House. Yet the nobility are overly concerned with lineage and blood and that is why the Westerlings, even with merchant blood, will always seem to be more prestigious than the Freys.
 
And for Walder Frey to find out that his army and daughter/granddaughter was good enough for Robb Stark the heir of the Lordship of Winterfell but not good enough for Robb the King of the North must have been infuriating. Every victory Robb had in the War of the Five Kings was with Frey's assistance, yet when it came to it Robb felt that he was too good for them (from Walder's perspective).

Wilders a treacherous old man, but a lot of people don’t seem to understand this. Either that. Or they willfully ignore the nuance. Ser Stevron died for a lie. He was in his 60’s and he never got to be the Lord of the Crossing.

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Major? Just about. Of the rebel Lords he was the least important.

He was the fourth most important actually and her armies contributed to bring down the Targs, just as Kermit.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is that claimed? There is nothing in the books to back this up.

He may have been, but we simply don't know. I'm here to talk about what we do know and in the last 15 years it is debatable if Hoster was one of the 10 or even 20 most powerful/influential Lords in the realm.

What, that he wasn't one of the most powerful lords of the Realm??

He was part of the victorious side of the civil war and his daughters married the Eyrie and Winterfell, that makes him one of the most powerful lords.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is that claimed? There is nothing in the books to back this up.

He may have been, but we simply don't know. I'm here to talk about what we do know and in the last 15 years it is debatable if Hoster was one of the 10 or even 20 most powerful/influential Lords in the realm.

He did, both were in the victory side of the civil war, both their armies were crutial for their side victory, yet neither of them was given a political appointment afterwards.

It does sound similar to me.

 

4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Keeps? Quote all these times as it seems you are being hugely hyperbolic.

As far as we know he was only really prominent in the immediate aftermath of the Dance. He had a say in who the next monarch was, if the war would continue and his lords were used to police some parts of the Kingdom, such as the Vale civil war.

But this far we have no idea if Kermit has a significant future. But given the lack of people named Kermit (or some other variation of his name) I have my doubts about just how influential he was.

As it stands we both don't know about his future. I've said this to you in my last three posts. You seem determined to say thay we do.

Yes keeps. 

 

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The undistinguished history of House Tully had only been exacerbated by the character of its last two lords…but now the gods had brought a younger generation of Tullys to the fore, a pair of proud young men determined to prove themselves, Lord Kermit as a ruler and Ser Oscar as a warrior.

 

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Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King’s Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons.

His successors ruled as best they could after him, but Riverrun was never again as prominent as during those years. Loyal to House Targaryen through all the Blackfyre Rebellions, House Tully finally soured on the dragon kings during the madness of King Aerys II Targaryen, and Lord Hoster Tully joined Robert Baratheon and his rebels and helped bind together the alliance that brought Robert to the Iron Throne by granting the hands of his daughters to Lord Jon Arryn of the Eyrie and Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

 

The text is clear,  both Oscar and Kermit are going to distinguish themselves and take the Tullys to new heights and that during Kermit's rule the Tullys were very prominent for Kermit's life.

What it doesn't say, no matter how you try to spin spin it, is that Kermit was only prominent during the inmediate aftermath of the Dance. Years didn't pass for the inmediate aftermath of the Dance.

I've told you three times, we don't need to know what he did, we do know that whatever he did was worthu of the praise. The moment to doubt about those words is when we're given his entire record and it doesn't match the praise, not before.

When we're told that the Baratheons suffered greatly for their decisions in the Dance, we don't know what Aegon and his heirs did to them, yet we can tell they didn't have a nice time, I don't know why should we have a different bar here.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He was the Hand. The Hand is the co-ruler. You seem pretty desperate to downplay his role. Name all the things Kemit did in his life. Since that is the standard you have set, quote away.

The Hand isn't a co ruler, he's a co ruler or ruler in the best case scenario,  worst case scenario he's simply an advisor. Ned was Hand for months under Robert and he only rules once and it's when Robert leaves for the hunt.  

I don't need to be desperate to downplay his role, the world book already does that. Kermit is singled out by both Yandel and Glydan, Edmyn isn't. 

Let's use your standards then, can you tell how Edmyn rule the Realm?? Because  there is no data of that except that he wore the badge, 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Tullys under Edmyn started off far lower on the totem poll than they did under Kermit. Does this really need explaining to you again?

Edmyn did more for his House than Kemit has done thus far in Fire and Blood.

Now that might change, but it seems hard to see how he can do that given Edmyn took them from Lords to Overlords.

The Tullys under Edmyn were actually the most powerful house of the Riverlands at the time,  

I have already explained to you, Kermit was not only prominent and influence but he largely controlled his own vassals, which is a feat no other Tully before or after would accomplish.

I've already told you, in terms of rise, it was Edmyn, in terms of power it was Kermit.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. He killed the Lord of the Stormlands, defeated the last 'Green' army and had a say in how the new government was formed.

Have I missed anything out? By all means tell me everything kermit did? If your answer is you don't know then why insist on arguing about it

Yes, that his prominence lasted for years. So, it wasn't reduced just to that,  now you have a point when you say that we don't know what else he did, but since we're literally told that he did for years, I don't know why you insist on arguing about it.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Any evidence for this or is this all speculation on your part?

Dude, I am more than happy to have this conversation when we have more information but so far you are just adamant that your head cannon is right and can't possibly be wrong.

About what exactly??

About that the Tullys would be more settled in the position after a hundred years of being Lord Paramounts of the Trident?? No, that's just logical thinking.

About the Tullys being weaker than the their bannermen?? We're outright told that.

Or about it being a hundred years between Kermit's rule or Edmyn's rule?? You're right is headcanon.

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. the entire realm suffered. I don't know how you can argue agains that.

You haven't understood my words. The Baratheons were the only ones who fell pretty hard after the Dance. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The North was never as powerful and prominent as the Riverlands? Citation. Some evidence to back this up.

Though you are missing the point. The Starks during the big famine after the Dance are going to be significantly weaker than they normally are.

 

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In the years to come, men of House Tully would play a role in many of the chief events of the early Targaryen kings. When King Aenys I guested at Riverrun and Harren the Red slew Gargon the Guest, it was to the Tullys and their bannermen that His Grace turned to try to wrest Harrenhal away from the outlaw king. In later years, the Tullys—together with the Harroways, who at that time ruled Harrenhal—fielded part of the army that surrounded and defeated Prince Aegon and his dragon, Quicksilver, in his war against his uncle, Maegor the Cruel. But it was not long before Riverrun, too, began to chafe beneath King Maegor’s heel. As his enemies rose around him, the Tullys rallied to the banners of Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, brother of the slain Prince Aegon, in the final year of his cruel uncle’s reign.Through the years that followed, the Tullys continued to leave their mark on history.

 

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In the decades that followed, the North saw the Starks dealing with the rebellion of Skagos, a renewed onslaught of reaving by the ironborn under Dagon Greyjoy, and a wildling invasion led by Raymun Redbeard, the King-Beyond-the-Wall in 226 AC. In each of these, Starks died. Yet the house continued with its fortunes mostly unchanged—likely because of the firm resolve of most Lords of Winterfell not to become embroiled in the intrigues of the southron court. When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King’s crimes.

 

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Once Loren the Last gave up his crown, the Lannisters were reduced to lords. Though their vast wealth remained untouched, they did not have close ties to House Targaryen (unlike the Baratheons) and unlike the Tullys they were too proud to at once scrabble for a place of prominence beneath the Iron Throne.

 

The fact that the Starks kept the North aloof of most of the southern affairs while the Tullys in particular and the riverlords in general, tried to get the Targaryens favour means that their prominence and power of decision, would've been greater than the North's.

And the Riverlands were the main theater of the Dance, besides Vhagar being let loose on the lands.

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Again, missing the point. They, according to Fire and Blood, suffered hugely. Dalton and his heirs being murdered, thousands dying after the Lannisters and the Reach banded together to fight them, taking their stocks that led to thousands more starving.

Iron Islands was hugely weak in the aftermath of the Dance

The Riverlands also suffered a lot, how it that factors to the political sphere when the Ironborn, both forcefully and willingly aren't part of that??

 

 

5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Citation?

Citation to disprove it??

The Riverlords  levies fought against each other, against the Westernmen forces and against the Hightowers twice and then against the Stormlanders. That without saying that Aemond torched a good part of the Riverlands in revenge of the Westernmen being wiped out.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, that does not seem right. The Riverlands might have had more influence with the Crown, but that does not make them more prominent.

Fair enough.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. And they lost power and given there was a civil war to decide the new ruler the ruling Arryns will have ruled a split Vale.

And wouldn't the Riverlands have lost power after the Dance??

The new ruler of the ruler received oaths of fealty of the principal pretenders and was backed by the crown, i don't know if he would have to rule over a split Vale.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He did, but he was a child and his regents clearly did not want to be involved in the greater political machinations of the land.

More importantly the Reach had divided leadership. They Tyrells had a Lord who was in an unpopular relationship with his dead father's wife, the Peakes were soon to be disgraced.

No, his regents didn't want to be involved in a civil war, they were fine with supporting the Greens until they noticed that there were several powerful blacks in the Reach and they decided to stay out if it.  After King's Landing fell for thesecond time, they had no qualms about threatening Lord Hightower's brother.

How that implies divided leadership?? And where is said that the Peakes were going to be disgraced??

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

But the strength was not. They were one of the two last standing armies.

The strenght was, given that the Riverlands had suffered a lot, the quality of their strenght is also to be doubted.

Regardless, the Vale, the Westerlands, the North, the Velaryons and the Reach, all had armies or considerable resources to gather and army quickly.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't know if that is true, the Reach lost an entire town, as did the Crownlands. Lannisport was sacked and the Westerlands attacked.

The North was not hit by the war, but was hit really hard by the winter, the Stormlands army was defeated by the Lads and the Baratheons led by a child, two of his four sisters disgraced with plots for power.

The Iron Islands suffered both from war and famine, the ruling Greyjoys of that time murdered, gelded and overthrown.

The Riverlands saw the heaviest fighting of the war, the Riverlords fought against all the Greens and Vhagar torched a good part of the land.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't know what happened in his long run though. The aftermath of the Dance may well be his peak.

Not sure why that is so hard for you to admit.

Because we're told otherwise.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. I am happy to admit that he could go onto better things, take his House to even greater heights. I am happy to come back to this conversation when Fire and Blood II comes out and issue Mea Culpas.

Can you do the same? Admit that you don't know if Kermit will do anything of significance later in life? If he will even live long after the events of Fire and Blood I

Sure, when we get new info that contradicts, I'll gladly tell you that you were right and I was being stubborn.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No I am not. You made a claim which was untrue. Don't try to walk it back and claim it is a semantics issue. You claimed that Yandel called him the Greatest of all Tully lords and when asked to back this claim up are crying semantics.

It's the very same, but fair enough.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King's Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons.

 

It seems to be specifically talking about the Dance, were they were one of the major players.

Dountful.

 

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His successors ruled as best they could after him, but Riverrun was never again as prominent as during those years.

 

And the Tullys were also one of the major players during the Robellion.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We know it did. Cat explains why it did.

You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

It benefited Jon greatly.

You're arguing your strawman here.

The main discussion was whether Hoster forced him to marry Lysa, that quote makes clear that yes, Hoster did force Jon to marry Lysa.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We know it did. Cat explains why it did.

You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

It benefited Jon greatly.

And why is that?? Because Hoster Tully elevated his price and force the rebels to meet their demands or go home.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

And due to the customs of the land, his younger brother was honour bound to make the deal.

Sure, and that deal should've sealed the alliance, yet Hoster forced a new price.

 

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh?

What would you base it on. What evidence do you have? I've given mine, if you have superior evidence from the books then I am happy to hear it. Please quote away. Don't bear around the bush for another 10 posts, supply the evidence in your next post please.

What evidence have you given?? You have only said that they weren't given political appointments.

I have already told you that her daughters married the lords of the Eyrie and Winterfell.

 

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh?

What would you base it on. What evidence do you have? I've given mine, if you have superior evidence from the books then I am happy to hear it. Please quote away. Don't bear around the bush for another 10 posts, supply the evidence in your next post please.

Those Houses could've gone to the Royalists in exchange of Tywin stopping harassing their lands. Nor we're told about any ties those houses had with the Lannisters for it to go otherwise.

 

The rest is more pointless duscussion.

 

 

 

 

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