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Lee-Sensei

What should Walder Frey have done?

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44 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

) Orys was an alleged bastard. This was never confirmed. He was also the Hand of the King. The Baratheons get a pass, because they’re essentially the Durrandons as Olenna Tyrell mentions.

You Starks were kings once, the Arryns and the Lannisters as well, and even the Baratheons through the female line, but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire.

It doesn’t hurt that they were also the ruling family during AGoT. So in addition to being blood descendants of the Durrandons, the Baratheons rule from Storms End, they look like Durrandons (tall, muscular, strong jawed, black haired and blue eyed), they have the Durrandons words, Durrandons titles and they even tend to have their characteristics (bullheaded and mercurial). They’re basically just a continuation of House Durrandon.

1)Yet Olenna explicitly has to mention that through 'female line'....... Although being basically Durrandons as you pointed out ....... This is a highly patriarchal society....... Sometimes too toxic...... And the Baratheon bros themselves never cared about their family pedegree unless they had to talk about it...........

 

49 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

) They did have Forrest Frey. He was a famous and powerful knight during the advance with Dragons that was gallant, chivalrous and loyal. This was the picture that they used in the world book. He wasn’t weasel faced at all.

Just one historic example.......

 

50 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

There’s also Black Walder and Bastard Walder, who are highly respected for their martial prowess by Brynden and Jaime.

I have to go back to the books for this......

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2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. She didn’t feel that they’d deserved it

Reread what I said. I made no claim one way or the other, I was just pointing out that  Cat said it was a bad idea because of where they were, and not because it was a shitty thing to do.

If you think Cat gave another reason and I overlooked it I'm happy to read it. It's a large series and its easy to miss things. Quote away.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

and felt that Robb should have kept his oTh to marry a Frey girl. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on the rest. I think that breaking guest rights was a major mistake and that it’s going to get a lot of Frey’s killed.

I think it is now looking like a major mistake because magic has re-entered the world, two ancillary Starks seem to have returned from the dead (Cat and Jon), Arya is a super powered assassin and Bran a tree god.

There is knowledge that the Freys did not have, so now it looks to have possible dire consequences. Take away magic, then I think the Freys could had rid it out and recovered their reputation, in part at least, within a few generations.

Walder's descendants could have pushed the blame onto him, rather than the House.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Orm said:

Yes...... And I never disagreed with this in the first place........ Rather I advocate for it.......

Dude, you asked for my opinion. I gave it to you, so there is no need to be condescending.

If you are not looking for someone's opinion, only looking for validation on your own, then say that. Don't waste other people's time by asking them to lay out their thoughts on a subject if you didn't care in the first place.

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I would say you have to earn respect instead of expecting to be respected...... Which  Walder Frey quite doesn't get....... 

How so? How has the ancient Walder not earned respect? Has he been a poor Lord? Has his House suffered in his reign?

The problem is not that Walder has not earned respect, he clearly has, the problem is that Walder, due to how powerful he is, see's the Overlords like Tully, Lannister, Stark and Arryn as his peers and they do not, given they are  a rank ahead of him.

It does not matter how powerful or influential he becomes, he'll never make that rank and those Houses will always be older and have more prestige than the relativly new Freys.

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3 hands of the king..... The most out any house......

What is with the elipsis? If you have a point to make, then make it. Don't beat around the bush and expect people to know what you are inferring.

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Royal marriages? You mean the 2?

I'd say three. Rogar Baratheon married Dowager Queen Alyssa Velaryon and became Regent as a result. 

But you seem unimpressed. The Targs had been marrying each other or their cousins the Velaryons for most of their dynasty.

How many royal marriages would impress you? How many Houses do you think have a better number of royal marriages?

Genuine question, I want to get a feel for your thoughts on the question.

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Oddly enough thats what I intended to convey on my first post on this thread...... Just on a fantasy basis......

Cool. More ellipsis. How enigmatic...

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So you do agree to what I said.....

No, I gave a larger take because I thought you were asking something in good faith.

The primary reason they are not respected by some Houses is because of the age of the Houses. This is covered pretty comprehensibly in the books.

There are other reasons, which I listed, but primarily it is their age.

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The Freys are sneered at because they are Businessmen/entrepreneurs..........

One of the reasons, not the primary one.

Though they are not actually sneered at by most. The marriage alliances of House Frey under Walder seem to show a healthy respect for them.

However Hoster Tully has never liked Walder, and vice versa, because he is much younger and not as powerful as his vassal. On top of that Walder has never liked the close relations Walder has had with the lords of the Westerlands. The Tully's, being close to the borders, have not had a great history with that region so it is understandable why he'd not be happy about his most powerful Lord having multiple marriage alliances with that region.

"Some men take their oaths more seriously than others, Robb. And Lord Walder was always friendlier with Casterly Rock than my father would have liked."

So there has always been open hostility between Walder and Hoster and that has trickled down to his children, and notably to the reader as our impressions of the Freys come from the Tullys, who dislike them, and the Lannisters, who think they are better than everybody.

 

Or as Robb points out

Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."
Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."
 
To most of the nobles of Westeros the dirt poor Westerlings will be more prestigious simply because of their greater lineage.
 
It has nothing to do with martial ability, like you are trying to suggest.

 

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Whereas as Baratheons are respected because of their martial prowess and success......

No. The Baratheons are currently Kings, before that they were Lords and through the female line they ruled the Stormlands for thousands of years.

It is not due to their prowess or success (they were given the Stormlands after all) but their lineage and them being one of the closer families to the Targarens.

Robert was not made King because of his prowess, but because of his blood.

 

If you have any more questions, please ask.

Edited by Bernie Mac

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On 7/30/2020 at 10:38 AM, Patchface. said:

Barred the gates and not let Robb pass and stay neutral

I like this move but there is a problem with it.  Suppose the Starks win.  The Tullys would do to the Freys what they did to the Goodbrooks.  It's not enough to take a neutral stand.  Walder has to actually fight for the Lannisters and make sure the Tullys are destroyed.  They have to side with the throne and also make sure the Tullys lose everything.  

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Reread what I said. I made no claim one way or the other, I was just pointing out that  Cat said it was a bad idea because of where they were, and not because it was a shitty thing to do.

If you think Cat gave another reason and I overlooked it I'm happy to read it. It's a large series and its easy to miss things. Quote away.

I think it is now looking like a major mistake because magic has re-entered the world, two ancillary Starks seem to have returned from the dead (Cat and Jon), Arya is a super powered assassin and Bran a tree god.

There is knowledge that the Freys did not have, so now it looks to have possible dire consequences. Take away magic, then I think the Freys could had rid it out and recovered their reputation, in part at least, within a few generations.

Walder's descendants could have pushed the blame onto him, rather than the House.

1) I know what you said. I disagree. I don’t think that she meant that he would be wrong to attack, just because of where they were. She recognizes that Robb had insulted them and Robb agreed. It’s from the very same quote.

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . . "

2) Walder was a nonagenarian. He didn’t kill or capture all of those people by himself. At the very least, most people would think that the adult male Frey’s were largely involved. It’s not a bad idea just because magic is returning. It’s a bad idea, because they’ve been tainted by their treachery.

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2 hours ago, Orm said:

1)Yet Olenna explicitly has to mention that through 'female line'....... Although being basically Durrandons as you pointed out ....... This is a highly patriarchal society....... Sometimes too toxic...... And the Baratheon bros themselves never cared about their family pedegree unless they had to talk about it...........

Just one historic example.......

I have to go back to the books for this......

1) It doesn’t really matter. Their prestige comes from being Durrandon Kings.

2) We don’t know a lot about past a Frey’s. If George writes some more histories or Dunk and Egg books, we may hear about more of them.

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16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

If they had Lords with the capability of exploiting it. But as GRRM points out, they are usually ruled by muppets.

Kermit Tully led the Tullys to their highest power and Martin only talks about the two last Tully lords being some sort of a failure.

 

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House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins. The Mallisters of Seagard had a prouder lineage, the Mootons of Maidenpool were far wealthier, and Harrenhal, even cursed and blasted and in ruins, remained a more formidable castle than Riverrun, and ten times the size besides. The undistinguished history of House Tully had only been exacerbated by the character of its last two lords…but now the gods had brought a younger generation of Tullys to the fore, a pair of proud young men determined to prove themselves, Lord Kermit as a ruler and Ser Oscar as a warrior.

 

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Lord Kermit brought the Tullys to the height of their power. Vital and bold, he fought tirelessly for Queen Rhaenyra, and her son, Prince Aegon, later King Aegon III. Lord Kermit was the chief commander of the host that descended on King’s Landing in the last days of the war, and he personally slew Lord Borros Baratheon in the final battle of the Dance of the Dragons.
His successors ruled as best they could after him, but Riverrun was never again as prominent as during those years. Loyal to House Targaryen through all the Blackfyre Rebellions, House Tully finally soured on the dragon kings during the madness of King Aerys II Targaryen, and Lord Hoster Tully joined Robert Baratheon and his rebels and helped bind together the alliance that brought Robert to the Iron Throne by granting the hands of his daughters to Lord Jon Arryn of the Eyrie and Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

 

Given that Hoster joined a succesful rebellion against the Targs and marry his daughters to Winterfell and the Eyrie and still he didn't leave the same mark as Kermit did, we can guess that Kermit set the bar pretty high and than the lords that followed weren't necessarily incompetents.

 

 

16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hoster betraying Aerys, who favored Houses such as the Mootons and Darrys, suggests he did not do a lot to grow his power and influence under the Targs and under Robert he seems to have benefited the least, no Small council position for him or his loyalists.

I'll say the least benefited are Ned's men. There were a lot of lands in the Riverlands Robert could've divided to keep happy the rebel Riverlords, I very much doubt that the Darrys were the only ones who lost lands.

And during the Blackfyre rebellion, the Brackens would've taken a hit in favor of more loyal lords.

 

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7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

I like this move but there is a problem with it.  Suppose the Starks win.  The Tullys would do to the Freys what they did to the Goodbrooks.  It's not enough to take a neutral stand.  Walder has to actually fight for the Lannisters and make sure the Tullys are destroyed.  They have to side with the throne and also make sure the Tullys lose everything.  

Ah the Goodbrooks.  They have more good reasons to participate in the red wedding.  Darry and Goodbrooks are families who did it right.  Aegon should get rid of all the Tullys and give their lands to the Goodbrooks.  Lymond Goodbrook.  Dany should seek a Darry kin and give them back their lands after wiping the Lannisters off from the face of the land.  Even a distant kin would do.  The Targaryens should reward these families.  Walder will have to remain a lord beneath the new Lord Paramount Lymond Goodbrook. 

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

is not due to their prowess or success (they were given the Stormlands after all) but their lineage and them being one of the closer families to the Targarens

Except Orys won the Storm-lands through martial conquest on the orders of Aegon....... Then established his house on the bones, blood and assimilation of the previous ruling house.........

Through Martial ability , Chivalry and Honor........things westerosi put on a pedestal.....

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. The Baratheons are currently Kings, before that they were Lords and through the female line they ruled the Stormlands for thousands of years.

Yet, explicitly mentioned as the youngest of the great houses.......

 

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert was not made King because of his prowess, but because of his blood.

As if Robert was ever making king if he hadn't won every battle he was at, and smashed Rhaegar on the trident......

It was conquest through rebellion...... But either Robert became king by conquest or right of blood is another  topic for discussion entirely.......

 

Anyways my point was that martial prowess is in fact a major factor on the prestige of a house...... At least by the westerosi....... The Freys, to my knowledge come up short to the other houses in their entirety........

We have an entire house which exists in the first place as a rival royal house to Targaryens, the Blackfyres....... Who many lords supported....

Simply because how cool Daemon Blackfyre looked and fought in comparison to Daeron the Good.....

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39 minutes ago, R2D said:

Walder Frey should have killed Robb by making it look like an accident or something.

Because of the Purple Wedding, his house is a pariah.

That would have been ideal for Walder but Tywin may not agree.  I guess an ambush to kill Robb and Catelyn on the way to the twins would have been the best time.  Edmure is still a problem though.  He would know who sent the ambush. 

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9 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

That would have been ideal for Walder but Tywin may not agree.  I guess an ambush to kill Robb and Catelyn on the way to the twins would have been the best time.  Edmure is still a problem though.  He would know who sent the ambush. 

They don't have to kill Catelyn though. Just Robb is enough. 

They were planning to take her hostage but then she pulled that shit with Jinglebell.

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18 hours ago, Orm said:

We have an entire house which exists in the first place as a rival royal house to Targaryens, the Blackfyres....... Who many lords supported....

Simply because how cool Daemon Blackfyre looked and fought in comparison to Daeron the Good.....

That's not true at all. Some lords/knights like the Osgreys might have followed Daemon for that, but it was a minor reason at best. Some lords thought that the Blackfyre(the sword) was a sign that Aegon IV wanted him as his successor, some thought that the dornish had too much influence on court(I think this was the main reason), while others thought that Daeron was not the King's son at all.

Saying that, I doubt martial prowess is the reason the freys are disliked. We have no reason to believe that the Freys have been historically worse warriors than any other house.

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3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

That's not true at all. Some lords/knights like the Osgreys might have followed Daemon for that, but it was a minor reason at best.

A reason non the less...... Enough reason for lords to go to war for that....

 

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Some lords thought that the Blackfyre(the sword) was a sign that Aegon IV wanted him as his successor, so

Blackfyre(the sword) is the martial symbol of the Targaryen kings..... Daemon had it and was exceptional with it......

 

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

some thought that the dornish had too much influence on court(I think this was the main reason), wh

Racism to justify war.......

 

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

while others thought that Daeron was not the King's son at all.

Plain dissing of the opposition for the  legitimacy of your cause......

It is unlikely that Daeron wasn't Aegon's son...... Even if not, no one can prove dick since the alleged parents are the king's siblings..... Unlike Stannis's case.....

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Saying that, I doubt martial prowess is the reason the freys are disliked

Martial prowess, Chivalry and Honor.......

 

3 hours ago, The Hoare said:

We have no reason to believe that the Freys have been historically worse warriors than any other house.

Given the history we have, they seem very mediocre and doesn't hold a candle compared to the Baratheons.....

Edited by Orm
Punctuation

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52 minutes ago, Orm said:

A reason non the less...... Enough reason for lords to go to war for that....

You'll find worthless lordlinds that will follow anyone for any reason. doesn't mean that looking good on a horse was the reason Daemon convinced half of the realm to fight for him.

53 minutes ago, Orm said:

Racism to justify war.......

No. They were concerned about the dornish influence in KL, just like Renly was concerned about the lannister's influence over Robert.

55 minutes ago, Orm said:

Plain dissing of the opposition for the  legitimacy of your cause......

It is unlikely that Daeron wasn't Aegon's son...... Even if not, no one can prove dick since the alleged parents are the king's siblings..... Unlike Stannis's case.....

Quite obviously, but that's what all rebels do. Even Robert's rebels used his Targaryen blood as a excuse for the war.

Also, Stannis can't prove anything either. It's only hair colour, which is a very poor proof.

57 minutes ago, Orm said:

Given the history we have, they seem very mediocre and doesn't hold a candle compared to the Baratheons.....

You can't really compare them. The baratheons are a great house with strong connections to the Targaryens, which involved marriages between the two as well.

However, if you compare the Freys with the Boltons or the Dondarrions they're not much different.

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On 7/31/2020 at 10:44 PM, Lee-Sensei said:

1) I know what you said. I disagree.

That is fair enough, I'm not even saying you are wrong. I am just pointing out that Cat, according to the text, was against the Greatjon's idea due to geography, nothing else.

There may be other reaons she did not mention, but that is the primary one.

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2) Walder was a nonagenarian.

 

He was the Lord, sadly people of all Houses do what Lords command them to do.

It is possible that over time this could have been changed from a Frey crime, to a Walder Frey crime. Is your argument that such a scenario is 100% not possible?

That future Frey generations could never rehabilitate their reputation to some of their neighbouring lords?

 

22 hours ago, Orm said:

Except Orys won the Storm-lands through martial conquest on the orders of Aegon.......

Dude, the constant ellipsis is obnoxious. You might be making good points, but all a lot of people are going to see it as passive aggressive trolling or that you are not clear on your own thoughts and want someone else to fill them in for you.

And yes, through Aegon. Orys commanded the Kings army.

Though I am not sure your point here? The Baratheons are overlords of the Stormlands, the Freys vassals of the Riverlands.

If you think the Freys are looked down upon because of their lack of martial ability, then you should be comparing them with other Riverland Houses to make your point.

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Then established his house on the bones, blood and assimilation of the previous ruling house.........

Yup.

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Through Martial ability , Chivalry and Honor........

Well not quite. Have you read Fire and Blood? Some of the Baratheons have been some of the least honourable individuals in the that book.

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things westerosi put on a pedestal.....

True. But again, why is your only comparison these two Houses?

If your argument was that the age of the Freys is not the primary reason they are looked down upon, you'd not need to resort to having them compared to a House that is a rank higher than them.

The Baratheons, thanks to Aegon putting them in charge, are going to lead the armies of the Stormlands. Thanks to the multiple Hands they have had, or high ranking members in the government of their cousins the Targs, they are going to have more responsibility in war.

The Baratheons having more martial success in their history is down to their position, not down to them as a House organically exceeding at it.

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Yet, explicitly mentioned as the youngest of the great houses.......

With ties to the Durrandons. The Freys have no great lineage like that, the Baratheons do.

 

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As if Robert was ever making king if he hadn't won every battle he was at, and smashed Rhaegar on the trident......

We are specifically told why he was made King, he had the best blood claim.

Robert sat down again. "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."
"You had the better claim, Your Grace."
 
Robert's the cousin of Aerys, he would not be King if he was a butcher's son and he led those same armies to victory.
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It was conquest through rebellion...... But either Robert became king by conquest or right of blood is another  topic for discussion entirely.......

No, it seems appropriate for this. You brought up the Baratheons, you can't take them off the table because you don't like the evidence.

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Anyways my point was that martial prowess is in fact a major factor on the prestige of a house......

True.

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At least by the westerosi....... The Freys, to my knowledge come up short to the other houses in their entirety........

Which other Houses? You have used the Baratheons, the Overlords of the Stormlands, with multiple Hands in their history, as evidence that the Freys come up short.

Do you not see how this is a flawed argument you are making?

Why not compare them to other Riverland Houses? The Freys, since their conception, have been a presence in most wars.

Name the characters who have called into question the idea that the Freys come up short to most of the other Houses in the realm when it comes to martial ability?

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We have an entire house which exists in the first place as a rival royal house to Targaryens, the Blackfyres....... Who many lords supported....

Yup.

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Simply because how cool Daemon Blackfyre looked and fought in comparison to Daeron the Good.....

No, this is just a poor understanding of the cause of the Blackfyre rebellion. A surface level reading of it. Dareon's close connections to the Dornish, through both his wife, brother-in-law and his court, pissed off the Reach and Stormlands lords, traditional enemies of the Dornish. This gave Daemon the support he needed to challenge his brother.

It also helped that Daeron was accused of being  a bastard by his own father and that his father bequeathed his ancestral sword to Daemon, rather than Daeron. Or that Daemon had the superior lineage given that some argued that his mother should have been Queen.

 

 

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On 7/31/2020 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

Kermit Tully led the Tullys to their highest power and Martin only talks about the two last Tully lords being some sort of a failure.

No he did not. Edmyn Tully did, he was smart enough to be proactive in his support of the Targs, which helped them become Overlords of the Riverlands. He was also Hand for a couple of years. Kermit does not come close.

Prentys was one of the first major lords to turn against Maegor, helping change the tide for the Jaeharys faction. He also spent some time as Master of Law, and though Jaehaerys did not like him and dispensed of his rule, he was one of the Lords under consideration to become Hand when Daemon Velaryon died.

There is at least two Tully's who have been more significant than Kermit. While it is true that in the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons, with many realms beaten, Kermit Tully and the Riverlands were as powerful as they had ever been, or would do so, this was pretty shortlived.

On 7/31/2020 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

Given that Hoster joined a succesful rebellion against the Targs and marry his daughters to Winterfell and the Eyrie and still he didn't leave the same mark as Kermit did,

My understanding of that quote is that Kermit, in the aftermath of the Dance, the leader of an army at the gates of the Kings Landing, was in a positon of power and influence that no other Riverland Lord had been in.

But it was shortlived and he was bullied by Cregan, who arrived shortly after.

When reading the few years of Fire and Blood that take place after the Dance it does not seem that Kermit was particularly a large influence

Then they could continue north to Winterfell, perhaps even visit the Wall, before turning south again, down the kingsroad to the Neck. Sabitha Frey would host them at the Twins, they would call upon Lord Benjicot at Raventree Hall, and of course if they visited the Blackwoods they must needs spend the same amount of time with the Brackens. A few nights at Riverrun, and they would cross over the hills into the west, to visit Lady Johanna at Casterly Rock.

It could even be argued that the Freys, under Lady Vypren and the Blackwoods, had overshadowed him or at least been at a similar level to him in terms of influence. Kermit is in charge of the Riverlands at its height of power, but it still seems to be pretty equal in terms of the standing he has and his Lords do.

Though in fairness, Kermit's story is not over. And Fire and Blood II can change how I perceive him.

On 7/31/2020 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

 

we can guess that Kermit set the bar pretty high and than the lords that followed weren't necessarily incompetents.

They don't have to be incompetent, they just don't seem to have stood out that much. That their own vassals often were more significant than them, a situation that does not seem to have been the case in other realms of Westeros.

On 7/31/2020 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

I'll say the least benefited are Ned's men. There were a lot of lands in the Riverlands Robert could've divided to keep happy the rebel Riverlords, I very much doubt that the Darrys were the only ones who lost lands.

No, the Mootons as well. But that does not really strengthen the Riverlands.

Jon Arryn and Ned were both made Hands, his brothers given positions on the Small Council, the Lannisters a Queen, the Starks as well. 

Hoster  seems to have benefited the least of the rebels. In fact the appointment of Littlefinger to the Small Council seems like a slap in the fact to him.

On 7/31/2020 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

And during the Blackfyre rebellion, the Brackens would've taken a hit in favor of more loyal lords.

 

True. But come the present series they are still roughly as powerful as the Blackwoods.

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

 

 

Given the history we have, they seem very mediocre and doesn't hold a candle compared to the Baratheons.....

? This is a poor straw man argument.

Name all the vassal Houses who look as good as the Baratheons in terms of military accomplishments?

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31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

you think the Freys are looked down upon because of their lack of martial ability, then you should be comparing them with other Riverland Houses to make your point.

Just saying, let's say if Freys were tall,strong, good looking fighter's who could reck you when you cross them...... Would you take the chance to look down on them for family pedegree or insert-any pedegree?

 

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well not quite. Have you read Fire and Blood? Some of the Baratheons have been some of the least honourable individuals in the that book.

I meant Orys as the house founder......

Martial ability: Defeating Argilac...

Chivalry: Treatment of Argella...

Honor: Seems pretty honourable till the day he lost his hand..... Still mentioned to be bitter and crabby after that instead of dishonourable......

And I don't recall any house who have been constant do-gooders throughout their history in ASOIAF.....

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

With ties to the Durrandons. The Freys have no great lineage like that, the Baratheons do.

Okay...... I didn't think of that this way initially due to toxic patriarchy of westeros.... But I guess its fair......

 

46 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We are specifically told why he was made King, he had the best blood claim.

Answer the question..... Would he have made king if didn't win the war on his own merits?

 

47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert's the cousin of Aerys, he would not be King if he was a butcher's son and he led those same armies to victory.

The rebels prompted to make Robert king due to his blood ties to the previous monarch to maintain a sense of continuity........ Not the other way around..... Or else Viserys would have been crowned.....

And also a butcher's Son wouldn't just be a butcher's Son if he could lead armies to victory..........

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it seems appropriate for this. You brought up the Baratheons, you can't take them off the table because you don't like the evidence

I brought the Baratheons...... Cause they are a house younger then Freys but at the top of the ruling class in AGOT.....  And nobody seems to sneer at that...... The loyalist are just bitter about it...... 

33 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Do you not see how this is a flawed argument you are making

Okay.... I accept I may have been short sighted when making my case on a side by side comparison.....

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

, this is just a poor understanding of the cause of the Blackfyre rebellion. A surface level reading of it. Dareon's close connections to the Dornish, through both his wife, brother-in-law and his court, pissed off the Reach and Stormlands lords, traditional enemies of the Dornish. This gave Daemon the support he needed to challenge his brother.

It also helped that Daeron was accused of being  a bastard by his own father and that his father bequeathed his ancestral sword to Daemon, rather than Daeron. Or that Daemon had the superior lineage given that some argued that his mother should have been Queen.

So tell me, Would people still rally behind Daemon if he wasn't a martial prodeege 

And looked "Half a God"

 

I get the impression that you think martial prowess is not a quality which is earned through hard work........ 

Since it pays really well in the continent of westeros.......

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