Dorne was the only kingdom that could have withstood the Targaryens

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So what made Dorne able to resist the Targaryens. While there were many factors I think the following are the crucial one:

- No defensible power base. Imagine if Sunspear was the size and strength of Casterly Rock or Winterfell. No way in hell Mariah could have appeared out of the blue to take it. Keep a garrison of a couple of hundred and the local insurgents are screwed

- No major cities. If a Kingdom had any large cities, they would be horrifyingly vulnerable to dragon terror attacks. And unless a populace is determine to extinguish itself, what this means is that if there are any large cities that control the economy of a Kingdom and that cannot be evacuated, then the defense of said Kingdoms against dragons drops dramatically.

- But the most important one is the ability to feed itself. Dragons can destroy all agricultural output, especially 3 that are monstrously large. So the only other way for the population to feed itself is by importing food. What this means for a start is that the Westerlands, Iron Isles and probably the Reach are all off the table due to the geography and them being very far away from anyone that could sell them food. For the same reason the North falls too as well it's unique problem of being so big that there is no way to transport the food inland. Another thing that is important is that the Kingdom must have a decent economy so that it can buy the food. So of the ones we still have the Stormlands is off the table too (that and the fact that Storm's End is ridiculously easy to hold). And lastly it shouldn't be able to get blockaded in it's entirety. So that rules out the Riverlands too as blockading the Gullet and the gulf between Cracklaw point and the Vale is super easy (naval challenges are a non issue when dragons exist)

So this leaves only the Vale as a contender, and while some resistance in the mountains could very well go on forever, given that taking and holding the Eyrie, the Bloody Gate and Gulltown should be quite easy (the Eyrie and Bloody Gate by garrisoning the, and Gulltown by saying keep faith or else) organized all out insurrection would not be maintainable for the long stretch, and would quickly either fade out or retreat into the mountains. So what do you think? Could any kingdom besides Dorne have fended off the Targs?

[Targknight]

Daeron I Targaryen conquered Dorne. The dornish couldn’t military beat him,so they used a dirty tactic of peace negotiations to kill him.

[The Hoare]

Any kingdom that heavily invested on scorpions. That's how the dornish killed dragons, no?

[Targknight]

14 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Any kingdom that heavily invested on scorpions. That's how the dornish killed dragons, no?

Not all Dragons, it won’t work on Balerion.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

1 hour ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Daeron I Targaryen conquered Dorne. The dornish couldn’t military beat him,so they used a dirty tactic of peace negotiations to kill him.

I'm not talking short terms occupation. Daeron was already losing at that point via guerrilla warfare. I'm talking here about the fact that had any other kingdom but Dorne tried pulling Fabian guerrilla strategies, it would have failed.

[Targknight]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm not talking short terms occupation. Daeron was already losing at that point via guerrilla warfare. I'm talking here about the fact that had any other kingdom but Dorne tried pulling Fabian guerrilla strategies, it would have failed.

Daeron wasn’t losing. 

[Eltharion21]

Targaryens could have taken the Dorne at their pinnacle of power before the Dance, though they turned on themselves maybe through influence of outside factor as many noted foreign dignitaries during perceived New Valyria forming in Westeros and discord between two factions.

Seems like Martin was mostly inspired with Vietnam when describing guerrilla tactics, though important factor for that conflict or Afghanistan were supports of other major powers, China or US funding Taliban insurrection.

Most important factor like recently  with Isis which was on the roll until their opponents started targeting their finances, destroying fuel convoys.

To me it points that Cicero's saying is still very much on the point: The sinews of war, unlimited money.

 

[Targknight]

6 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Targaryens could have taken the Dorne at their pinnacle of power before the Dance, though they turned on themselves maybe through influence of outside factor as many noted foreign dignitaries during perceived New Valyria forming in Westeros and discord between two factions.

Seems like Martin was mostly inspired with Vietnam when describing guerrilla tactics, though important factor for that conflict or Afghanistan were supports of other major powers, China or US funding Taliban insurrection.

Most important factor like recently  with Isis which was on the roll until their opponents started targeting their finances, destroying fuel convoys.

To me it points that Cicero's saying is still very much on the point: The sinews of war, unlimited money.

 

Right you are sir.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

8 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

To me it points that Cicero's saying is still very much on the point: The sinews of war, unlimited money.

Yeah that part never really made sense either, like how did the Dornish with no crops and presumably limited production have the money to feed their population for almost a decade. Nevermind how they ever managed to recover

[Lord Lannister]

Leaving aside the feasibility of how Dorne was able to resist the dragons, the same conditions that enabled them to do so would seem to apply to the North. Few major population concentrations dispersed over a wide area with a people with the ability to live off the land at need. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The Dornish fought differently.  The men hid while the old and the weak stayed behind. That is contrary to what most people would have done. Dorne was willing to sacrifice it's most vulnerable so the men could live to continue fighting.  

The Targaryens were not willing to lay waste to Dorne.  They could have burned down every castle and stronghold.  But they chose not to.  Rhaenys was the weak link in the family. The Targaryens could have cleansed the land if they had wanted to.  It was a matter of will and who was willing to accept the heavier loses.  

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens were not willing to lay waste to Dorne.  They could have burned down every castle and stronghold

And they did.

 

8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

But they chose not to. 

Huh??

 

Quote

The next two years were the years of the Dragon’s Wroth. Every castle in Dorne was burned thrice over, as Balerion and Vhagar returned time and time again. The sands around the Hellholt were fused into glass in places, so hot was Balerion’s fiery breath

 

Quote

The two years that followed were later called the years of the Dragon’s Wroth. Grief-stricken at the death of their beloved sister, King Aegon and Queen Visenya set ablaze every castle, keep, and holdfast in Dorne at least once … save for Sunspear and the shadow city. Why this is so remains a matter of conjecture. In Dorne, it was said the Targaryens feared that Princess Meria had some cunning means of slaying dragons, something she had purchased from Lys. Likelier, however, is Archmaester Timotty’s suggestion in his Conjectures that the Targaryens hoped to turn the rest of the Dornish, who suffered so much destruction, against the Martells, who were spared. If this is true, it may explain the letters dispatched from the marches to the Dornish houses, urging them to surrender and claiming that the Martells had betrayed them by buying their safety from the Targaryens at the expense of the rest of Dorne.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

  Rhaenys was the weak link in the family.

Because she died?? How Aegon is different then??

Visenya saved his life a couple of times.

 

13 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens could have cleansed the land if they had wanted to.  It was a matter of will and who was willing to accept the heavier loses.  

So you didn't really read about the Dornish wars...

[nyser1]

Umm try waging war with the North and possibly the Vale and seeing if it is not reminiscent of the invasions of Dorne. The geography & vastness of the North  with its Winters + stubborn as a goat inhabitants are going to provide the same argument as Dorne.

 

[James West]

46 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Umm try waging war with the North and possibly the Vale and seeing if it is not reminiscent of the invasions of Dorne. The geography & vastness of the North  with its Winters + stubborn as a goat inhabitants are going to provide the same argument as Dorne.

 

And yet Torrhen surrendered.  It may take time and a lot of effort but it can be done.  Inflict enough suffering on the north, for a long enough period, and the houses will start to defect to the Targaryens until only the Starks and a few really loyal families remains to resist.  Then it's time to fry some Starks. 

[nyser1]

Just now, James West said:

And yet Torrhen surrendered.  It may take time and a lot of effort but it can be done.  Inflict enough suffering on the north, for a long enough period, and the houses will start to defect to the Targaryens until only the Starks and a few really loyal families remains to resist.  Then it's time to fry some Starks. 

He did, but it is the other side of the same coin. I imagine quite realistically the story could have been made with the reverse.

 

Simlarities

• Social customs differ greatly
• Different ethnic proportions'
• Harsh Climate, Rough Terrain
• Low Population Density
• Stubborn and can be fierce fighters
• Frontier (One versus Pirates & the Wall, the Pirates and Raids overland).

 

Differences

• Dornish follow the Seven, Northerners predominantly follow the Old Gods
• Martell motto of never surrender, Starks to prepare and survive for Winter.
• One chose to resist, one chose not to.

[James West]

Just now, nyser1 said:

He did, but it is the other side of the same coin. I imagine quite realistically the story could have been made with the reverse.

 

Simlarities

• Social customs differ greatly
• Different ethnic proportions'
• Harsh Climate, Rough Terrain
• Low Population Density
• Stubborn and can be fierce fighters
• Frontier (One versus Pirates & the Wall, the Pirates and Raids overland).

 

Differences

• Dornish follow the Seven, Northerners predominantly follow the Old Gods
• Martell motto of never surrender, Starks to prepare and survive for Winter.
• One chose to resist, one chose not to.

Dorne would also give up after enough suffering has been inflicted on them.  The lords might be willing to battle until death.  I doubt the people under them would have the same attitude.  

[frenin]

31 minutes ago, James West said:

Dorne would also give up after enough suffering has been inflicted on them.  The lords might be willing to battle until death.  I doubt the people under them would have the same attitude.  

They did.

 

Quote

Dorne was a blighted, burning ruin by this time, and still the Dornish hid and fought from the shadows, refusing to surrender. Even the smallfolk refused to yield, and the toll in lives was uncountable. 

 

Quote

Yet by 159 AC the hinterlands were pacified, and the Young Dragon was free to return in triumph to King’s Landing, leaving Lord Tyrell in Dorne to keep the peace. As assurance for Dorne’s future loyalty and good behavior, fourteen highborn hostages were carried back with him to King’s Landing, the sons and daughters of almost all the great houses of Dorne. This tactic proved less effective than Daeron might have hoped, however. Whilst the hostages helped ensure the continued loyalty of their own blood, the king had not anticipated the tenacity of Dorne’s smallfolk, over whom he had no hold. Ten thousand men, it is said, died in the battle for Dorne; forty thousand more died over the course of the following three years, as common Dornishmen fought on stubbornly against the king’s men.
 

 

It's obvious that the people had the same attitude, you can't withstand that kind of devastation without total unity. One single crack and Aegon would've taken Dorne.

[Universal Sword Donor]

48 minutes ago, James West said:

And yet Torrhen surrendered.  It may take time and a lot of effort but it can be done.  Inflict enough suffering on the north, for a long enough period, and the houses will start to defect to the Targaryens until only the Starks and a few really loyal families remains to resist.  Then it's time to fry some Starks. 

Torrhen surrendered because he saw what the field of fire had done to an army twice as large. Now he had to fight overmanned, underpowered and against 3 dragons. 

Dorne saw what Torrhen had done and did the opposite. If Torrhen had done the same, then he likely would have gotten away with it for a while too. The North is far larger than Dorne. Either the Targs stop or the North because an abandoned wasteland after the next winter anyway.

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, frenin said:

So you didn't really read about the Dornish wars...

I think she might mean how Aegon ended the first Dornish war on his watch? There was something in the letter that made him give up.

 

[frenin]

6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think she might mean how Aegon ended the first Dornish war on his watch? There was something in the letter that made him give up.

 

How that ties with her comments about the Targs not destroying Dorne tho...