Did Jon Arryn even believe the twincest story?

[frenin]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, we don't know that Robert was called, we know he came. He is the king, he comes and goes as he pleases. And the phrase

We know that a Robert was called and Robert came,

 

Quote

Pycelle wrinkled his brow. “In the last stage of his fever, the Hand called out the name Robert several times, but whether he was asking for his son or for the king I could not say. Lady Lysa would not permit the boy to enter the sickroom, for fear that he too might be taken ill. The king did come,

 

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pycelle uses does imply interaction. You don't 'talk and joke of times long past' with a person who is completely unresponsive.

You don't need to be completely unresponsive.  Pycelle doesn't imply interaction, but Robert simply going on and on trying to provoke a positive response from Jon Arryn.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lysa was with her husband the entire time. She poisoned him, yet she doesn't seem to have received intel from her husband on the twincest. Nor did any other servants or retainers of Jon's - Colemon, Hugh his squire, other servants or guardsmen, nobody. That isn't the behavior of a guy who believed this stuff and thought the king should know the truth.

Lysa was with her husband the entire time...  And her husband was sick and feverish the entire time, which means again that the man was not sound enough.

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Tears kill comparatively slowly, and Jon would only be at the mercy of Pycelle after Colemon was sent away - who would only have been consulted at a point where Jon had really strong pain. But then - Pycelle never did anything to stop Jon from talking. He ensured he would die by not trying to get the Tears out of his system, but there is no confirmation he hastened his death or deliberately messed with his mind by oderdosing him on the poppy before Robert came.

He didn't need to, Jon Arryn was weak and feverish, we don't even know if the man was conscious the entire time,we know little and what we know does not imply clarity.

 

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This doesn't mean this is impossible, mind you, but the question is broader than that since we don't even know whether 'the seed is strong' has anything to do with Robert or the book or not. If not, then Jon Arryn never tried to tell Robert or Lysa or whoever else was with Jon when he died anything about the twincest.

The "seed is strong" is Jon Arryn trying to communicate something his condition is preventing him from specify, because of the delirium and all that. The seed is strong can only be a reference to Robert and the book mind you, even Ned is able to undestand that.

[King17]

Robert was joking and talking of times long past whether or not jon arryn was lucid enough to understand any of it was never actually stated.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I think the evidence given in the books leans toward Jon Arryn knowing (at least highly suspecting) Robert's children were not his own. But it is definitely possible that he not know (or suspect) and that he was paranoid that he may not be the father of his own son.

George is good at writing misdirection; i.e. misleading the characters as well as the reader. But until we know otherwise, I choose to believe that Jon Arryn at least highly suspected Cersei's children were not Robert's. The incest doesn't really matter.

[corbon]

On 8/1/2020 at 1:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

But if Robert sat with Jon for hours and was conscious enough that Robert could talk and joke of times long past with him (and Robert wouldn't have done that with an unconscious corpse to be, he neither had the character nor to patience to talk to a vegetable) then why the hell didn't Jon talk to Robert about his suspicions?

Wouldn't he? (we aren't talking 'unconscious corpse' here, just a beloved father figure who is not lucid).

I think he would. I think within Robert's character he could have had all the time and patience in the world for the things or people he loved, especially if they weren't crossing him at the time.
He's an irresponsible high school sports star who never grew up, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love and care for some people just as much as any other person does.

On 8/1/2020 at 1:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

Is that a plot hole? Did Martin describe here something he didn't want to imply - that Jon was conscious enough to talk during this time?

No, its just a foolish assumption that doesn't fit the facts, followed by questioning the facts rather than re-assessing the assumption.

 

On 8/1/2020 at 8:28 PM, Damon_Tor said:

There's a theory that Jon Arryn didn't know about the twincest at all. His research into "strong seed" as relates to hair color is a indeed study of dominant genes. Strong Seed=Dominant Gene. But of course we in the modern world know that he was wrong, don't we? Were his understanding of the genetics of hair color correct, he would have discovered that it is entirely possible that Robert Baratheon carries a recessive blonde gene: his recessive blond gene plus his wife's two blonde genes, yields a blonde child 50% of the time. That he had three blond children is a 1/8 chance, nothing mysterious about that at all.

His research wouldn't lead him to that conclusion. The empirical data available shows that it is not 'entirely possible' for Robert Baratheon to have blonde children. It may be (likely is, given the weight of evidence available) that GRRM's genetics do not work exactly as ours do.

On 8/1/2020 at 8:28 PM, Damon_Tor said:

So why was he researching the genetics of hair color at all then? Well, again, if he did correctly assess the relationship between genes and hair color, he may have come to the conclusion that his blonde hair and his wife's red hair could not possibly have resulted in his son's dark hair.

 

His son's hair isn't dark, just 'brown' (which has many shades from light to dark). Which matches his son's grandfather's in description. So actually, he and his wife have a good chance of producing his son's hair colour between them.

On 8/1/2020 at 8:28 PM, Damon_Tor said:

Who killed Jon Arryn? His wife. Whose plot was it? Her lover's. And it was Littlefinger who steered Eddard toward the Twincest. Why? Just because Chaos is a Ladder? Or because the alternative was that Eddard would learn that it was Littlefinger and Lyssa killed Jon Arryn to hide their affair? It explains Jon's odd behavior with Sweetrobin as well: he knows he's a bastard.

Sweetrobbin's hair matches his Tully Grandfather's (also 'brown'), not Littlefinger's ('dark'). 

[S. D]

Of course he believed it. Why would he cry out "The seed is strong" on his deathbed if he didn't?

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Wouldn't he? (we aren't talking 'unconscious corpse' here, just a beloved father figure who is not lucid).

I think he would. I think within Robert's character he could have had all the time and patience in the world for the things or people he loved, especially if they weren't crossing him at the time.
He's an irresponsible high school sports star who never grew up, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love and care for some people just as much as any other person does.

I don't think there is any evidence for this, actually. Robert abandoned all the women he ever loved - including Lyanna, considering he didn't search for her, apparently - as well as his children, even the one, Mya, he seems to have loved more than her mother. He certainly is capable of love ... but not of patience. Robert isn't the kind of man who jokes for a hours with a delirious person/vegetable.

But even one can successfully bring oneself to buy that Robert talked and joked with an unresponsive old man for hours - the issue isn't just that Jon didn't say anything then, but that he made no attempt to inform the king when he was still more lucid. Robert himself is capable of dictating his last will to Ned on his deathbed - Jon could have done something similar. He was a very old man already, and the Tears kill slowly. It strikes one as pretty unlikely that he did not expect he might day any day even while he was feeling healthy. And when he was getting more and more pain why didn't he send for the king so he could talk to him while his mind was still lucid? Unless we assume Pycelle forced down the milk of the poppy down his throat against his will - which he never did with any patient we know of - he should have had ample time to talk to Robert before things got really worse.

And it is not that Jon had been told about the twincest story just the other day. He and Stannis had visited Gendry days, possibly weeks prior to his death. Even Cersei had realized that something was going on there, that he was investigating her and Jaime - which she couldn't have if that had only started around the time of his death considering she wasn't even in KL at the time.

Yet Jon apparently told nobody in all that time about his suspicions, left no papers addressed to Robert, to the point that the king wasn't informed. If he actually believed this stuff then he completely failed Robert there - which is what triggered the question I asked here. I'm not saying he didn't believe it possible or that he didn't believe it might be the case - just that we don't know that he was convinced enough that it was the truth to actually summon the courage to tell Robert about it.

Jon Arryn would actually look less of a fool if he, like Ned, had certain reservations about telling Robert the truth when it was still possible.

Him not buying the story is one possibility - with Ned it was sparing Robert more grief. But it could also have been fear of a civil war which kept him silent. If he knew he was dying then he may have feared what Robert might do without him, Jon, being there to guide him.

7 hours ago, S. D said:

Of course he believed it. Why would he cry out "The seed is strong" on his deathbed if he didn't?

Because the man was demented then. It is certainly possible that his last words were a reference to the book he was reading - or not. But if they were, then this doesn't mean he believed in the twincest - it could just mean his mind was stuck on the book and was going through the Baratheon matches he (supposedly) had read about.

[S. D]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because the man was demented then. It is certainly possible that his last words were a reference to the book he was reading - or not. But if they were, then this doesn't mean he believed in the twincest - it could just mean his mind was stuck on the book and was going through the Baratheon matches he (supposedly) had read about.

Good grief.

He was trying to tell people about the incest - that's just obvious.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But even one can successfully bring oneself to buy that Robert talked and joked with an unresponsive old man for hours - the issue isn't just that Jon didn't say anything then, but that he made no attempt to inform the king when he was still more lucid.

When was he more lucid?? The Tears eat you stomach, that is far worse than your typical stomach flu.

We are not given a moment when the man was lucid, you're the one assuming that moment existed to cast a doubt on his knowledge about the twincest.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert himself is capable of dictating his last will to Ned on his deathbed - Jon could have done something similar. He was a very old man already, and the Tears kill slowly. It strikes one as pretty unlikely that he did not expect he might day any day even while he was feeling healthy.

They weren't dying of the same thing, Robert being able to dictate his will is completely irrelevant.

He expected to die someday, he didn't expect to die then.

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And when he was getting more and more pain why didn't he send for the king so he could talk to him while his mind was still lucid? Unless we assume Pycelle forced down the milk of the poppy down his throat against his will - which he never did with any patient we know of - he should have had ample time to talk to Robert before things got really worse.

He was getting purged then, it's the thing about not knowing what you have, you may not know that you're dying until you are.

And ofc, Pycelle isn't known for killing his patients and Pycelle was killing Jon Arryn to prevent him from doing what you're suggesting.

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is not that Jon had been told about the twincest story just the other day. He and Stannis had visited Gendry days, possibly weeks prior to his death. Even Cersei had realized that something was going on there, that he was investigating her and Jaime - which she couldn't have if that had only started around the time of his death considering she wasn't even in KL at the time.

We know that the man was gathering evidence before going to Robert...

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Him not buying the story is one possibility - with Ned it was sparing Robert more grief. But it could also have been fear of a civil war which kept him silent. If he knew he was dying then he may have feared what Robert might do without him, Jon, being there to guide him.

And yet he kept repeating the same and the same. And given that he knew that Stannis knew the truth, civil war was something that would have crossed to his mind as inevitable, and it's not like Tywin has a many chances anyway, he had exactly zero with Jon Arryn, because with him alive the lifesaver in form of "Lysa will not join the war" many embrace is gone. Regardless, we do know he meant to tell Robert.

 

Quote

“And what was Lord Arryn plotting?” “He knew,” Pycelle said. “About … about …” “I know what he knew about,” snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well. “He was sending his wife back to the Eyrie, and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone … he meant to act …” “So you poisoned him first.” “No.” Pycelle struggled feebly. Shagga growled and grabbed his head. The clansman’s hand was so big he could have crushed the maester’s skull like an eggshell had he squeezed. Tyrion tsked at him. “I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn’s own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died.”

  Just as Ned after him, he was sending his family away before acting.

 

The man knew about the twincest, every source affirms that, we know that the man died repeating a hint for the twincest, not the book. 

[Frey family reunion]

 

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

Just as Ned after him, he was sending his family away before acting.

And that may be the reason that he didn't voice his suspicions to Robert, his wife and child were still in King's Landing.  He wanted them gone and to safety before he said anything to Robert of the significance of accusing the Queen of infedelity and incest.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/31/2020 at 9:15 PM, James Steller said:

True. Jon probably thought Robert would dismiss his deathbed confession as fever talk. Robert has a history of ignoring or running away from hard truths.

I don’t see Robert running away at all from being told that his “children” are Bastards born of incest. Yes. Jon Arryn knew that Cersei’s kids weren’t his.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:37 PM, James Steller said:

I think you’re mistaken. Robert wasn’t suspicious of Joffrey’s parentage, he was in denial over what a shitty dad he is. Say what you will about Joffrey, his mother, and the incest, but Robert deserves some of the blame for how Joffrey turned out. Joffrey picked up a lot from Robert across the first book, you can see it in how he treats his future wife. Plus he was willing to send an assassin to kill Bran Stark just because his ableist dad was shooting his mouth off away from Ned.

Every single one of Roberts bastards turned out to be decent people. Edric spent time with Robert, because he lived at Storms End and came out decent. According to Stannis, he’s a lot like Robert was growing up. Joffrey being a dick is 100% on Cersei for producing him with her brother, spoiling him rotten and encouraging his bad tendencies.

[James Steller]

44 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Every single one of Roberts bastards turned out to be decent people. Edric spent time with Robert, because he lived at Storms End and came out decent. According to Stannis, he’s a lot like Robert was growing up. Joffrey being a dick is 100% on Cersei for producing him with her brother, spoiling him rotten and encouraging his bad tendencies.

Robert’s bastards spent minimal time with him. Robert couldn’t even be bothered to buy a gift once in a while for Edric. Frigging Varys was more of a father to Robert’s bastards than Robert was. And don’t forget that Robert was not nice to Cersei. He did not treat her with respect. And yes, Cersei is a monster too, but she and Robert brought out the worst in each other on a daily basis. The only one of their kids who seems to be a reasonably stable child is Myrcella, frankly.

[Lee-Sensei]

4 hours ago, James Steller said:

Robert’s bastards spent minimal time with him. Robert couldn’t even be bothered to buy a gift once in a while for Edric. Frigging Varys was more of a father to Robert’s bastards than Robert was. And don’t forget that Robert was not nice to Cersei. He did not treat her with respect. And yes, Cersei is a monster too, but she and Robert brought out the worst in each other on a daily basis. The only one of their kids who seems to be a reasonably stable child is Myrcella, frankly.

1) I said Edric. Not the bastards as a whole. Yes. Edric did get to spend a considerable amount of time with Robert, because he lived at Storms End. The castle was close by, his original home and he made frequent visits. Obviously Roberts influence didn’t make him a bad kid.

2) It’s always interesting to me to see people try and act like Robert and Cersei were equally bad. They weren’t. He’s not a monster and she is. There are many examples in the books that show Cersei to be a far worse person than Robert. Unlike him she shows no remorse and no empathy. When Cersei and Jaime try to kill Bran, she has no regrets about it. Robert stays up all night to comfort Ned. After the Greyjoy a Rebellion, Cersei wanted Robert to commit genocide against the Ironborn and considered it weakness that he pardoned them. Cersei wanted Robert to maim Arya for what happened to Joffrey and settled on killing the direwolf, because Robert wouldn’t allow it. I could go on and on and on. 

3) Blame Cersei for how the kids came out. She’s the one that slept with her brother and then spoiled Joffrey and ignored Tommen and Myrcella.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

When was he more lucid?? The Tears eat you stomach, that is far worse than your typical stomach flu.

We are not given a moment when the man was lucid, you're the one assuming that moment existed to cast a doubt on his knowledge about the twincest.

Obviously the man was more lucid before drinking the milk of the poppy than afterwards. And he seems to have been drinking that only to ease his dying, not in an attempt to heal him.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

He expected to die someday, he didn't expect to die then.

One assumes he expected to die when he realized he was seriously ill. He must have known he was an old man even before he got seriously ill...

3 hours ago, frenin said:

And ofc, Pycelle isn't known for killing his patients and Pycelle was killing Jon Arryn to prevent him from doing what you're suggesting.

Pycelle didn't kill Jon Arryn. He just didn't save him from the poison he suspected he had in his system. That is a difference.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

We know that the man was gathering evidence before going to Robert...

We know he investigated things. We don't know what he actually believed to be true.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

And yet he kept repeating the same and the same. And given that he knew that Stannis knew the truth, civil war was something that would have crossed to his mind as inevitable, and it's not like Tywin has a many chances anyway, he had exactly zero with Jon Arryn, because with him alive the lifesaver in form of "Lysa will not join the war" many embrace is gone. Regardless, we do know he meant to tell Robert.

We know nothing of the sort.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Just as Ned after him, he was sending his family away before acting.

Jon intended to take his boy away from Lysa, he had no intention of sending her away before 'he intended to act' as you assume he did.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

The man knew about the twincest, every source affirms that, we know that the man died repeating a hint for the twincest, not the book. 

We don't know what the man knew. We know what claims he was investigating and what he may have believed. But we don't know whether he was ever convinced enough to bother the king with such accusations.

[James Steller]

23 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) I said Edric. Not the bastards as a whole. Yes. Edric did get to spend a considerable amount of time with Robert, because he lived at Storms End. The castle was close by, his original home and he made frequent visits. Obviously Roberts influence didn’t make him a bad kid.
2) It’s always interesting to me to see people try and act like Robert and Cersei were equally bad. They weren’t. He’s not a monster and she is. There are many examples in the books that show Cersei to be a far worse person than Robert. Unlike him she shows no remorse and no empathy. When Cersei and Jaime try to kill Bran, she has no regrets about it. Robert stays up all night to comfort Ned. After the Greyjoy a Rebellion, Cersei wanted Robert to commit genocide against the Ironborn and considered it weakness that he pardoned them. Cersei wanted Robert to maim Arya for what happened to Joffrey and settled on killing the direwolf, because Robert wouldn’t allow it. I could go on and on and on. 

3) Blame Cersei for how the kids came out. She’s the one that slept with her brother and then spoiled Joffrey and ignored Tommen and Myrcella.

1) It’s clearly stated that Robert was distant at best with his son. Varys is the one getting the boy some presents and signing Robert’s name on the gift card. And Robert never sees anything wrong with that.

2) and 3) when did you hear me say that Robert was equally as bad as Cersei? I called Cersei a monster. I didn’t call Robert a monster. But that said, Robert is not a great guy either. He’s a great warrior, a great military commander, and he might have made a decent Lord of the Stormlands, but he was a terrible king and a terrible father. In fact, let me ask you this: if Robert was so great, how come Joffrey is so messed up? I don’t care how evil Cersei is, I’d wager that Joffrey wouldn’t be quite so unstable if he’d had a dad who was actually invested in raising his kids. And yes, I’m aware that Westeros has a different view of fatherhood than our society but Ned was clearly an involved parent and his kids were well rounded before the events of the books happened. Meanwhile, Robert is a neglectful dad which means Cersei has full reign over her kids. Robert could have made a difference but he didn’t. That’s on him, even if everything else is on Cersei.

[Canon Claude]

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 After the Greyjoy a Rebellion, Cersei wanted Robert to commit genocide against the Ironborn and considered it weakness that he pardoned them.

That's not completely wrong, let's be blunt. Robert went way too easy on the Ironborn; they learned nothing and they rebelled again as soon as they could. They are a toxic culture with no redeeming qualities. Maybe don’t kill everyone but you don’t let the Greyjoys keep power, especially when you have their entire culture and history as evidence against them. Dislodge and dismantle their infrastructure and redistribute the survivors to different regions across the entire coastlines of Westeros, scatter them from each other so they become assimilated into Westerosi culture and install new families from the mainland on the Iron Islands. And that’s the end of any trouble the Ironborn will ever give.

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously the man was more lucid before drinking the milk of the poppy than afterwards. And he seems to have been drinking that only to ease his dying, not in an attempt to heal him.

I don't know how you can tell the difference, before drinking the poppy he is feverish, after drinking it, he's drugged.

None of those states implies lucidity.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes he expected to die when he realized he was seriously ill. He must have known he was an old man even before he got seriously ill...

And when that happened??

You don't feel the Tears having an effect until  the bloody stool and the belly cramps, then it's done,

 

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Pycelle didn't kill Jon Arryn. He just didn't save him from the poison he suspected he had in his system. That is a difference.

Potato Tomato here, the end was the same anyway.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know he investigated things. We don't know what he actually believed to be true.

Except that everyone knew he knew and everyone says he knew it, and his lasts words are about him knowing it.

 

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know nothing of the sort.

 

Quote

“And what was Lord Arryn plotting?” “He knew,” Pycelle said. “About … about …” “I know what he knew about,” snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well. “He was sending his wife back to the Eyrie, and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone … he meant to act …” “So you poisoned him first.” “No.” Pycelle struggled feebly. Shagga growled and grabbed his head. The clansman’s hand was so big he could have crushed the maester’s skull like an eggshell had he squeezed. Tyrion tsked at him. “I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn’s own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died.”

 

 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon intended to take his boy away from Lysa, he had no intention of sending her away before 'he intended to act' as you assume he did.

There are a lot of ways for that to happen nor they are mutually exclusive. Jon Arryn wanted them both out of King's Landing.

Besides, he didn't want him away from Lysa, that's what Lysa thought.

 

Quote

“The boy is weak and sickly,” Lord Stannis objected. “Even his father saw how it was, when he asked me to foster him on Dragonstone. Service as a page might have done him good, but that damnable Lannister woman had Lord Arryn poisoned before it could be done, and now Lysa hides him in the Eyrie. She’ll never part with the boy, I promise you that.”

He wanted him fostered... out of King's Landing.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know what the man knew. We know what claims he was investigating and what he may have believed. But we don't know whether he was ever convinced enough to bother the king with such accusations.

We do know.

He was sending his wife back to the Eyrie, and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone … he meant to act …”

Certainly sources that were at King's Landing at the time can tell better than you whether Jon Arryn knew or didn't or what Jon Arryn planned to do with the info he knew or didn't know,

 

[Lord Lannister]

I mean, given the absence of genetic testing in Westeros, the only "proof" you're going to get is catching Jaime and Cersei in the act. Otherwise yes, it's just a body of evidence that leads to a fairly obvious conclusion when presented.

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

That's not completely wrong, let's be blunt. Robert went way too easy on the Ironborn; they learned nothing and they rebelled again as soon as they could. They are a toxic culture with no redeeming qualities. Maybe don’t kill everyone but you don’t let the Greyjoys keep power, especially when you have their entire culture and history as evidence against them. Dislodge and dismantle their infrastructure and redistribute the survivors to different regions across the entire coastlines of Westeros, scatter them from each other so they become assimilated into Westerosi culture and install new families from the mainland on the Iron Islands. And that’s the end of any trouble the Ironborn will ever give.

Nah. Genocide is always evil. Killing Balon, Euron, Victarion and maybe Euron afterwards? Okay. Fine. Killing Asha, Theon and every other Ironborn? Building a mountain out of their skulls? Nope. That’s evil.

[Lee-Sensei]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

1) It’s clearly stated that Robert was distant at best with his son. Varys is the one getting the boy some presents and signing Robert’s name on the gift card. And Robert never sees anything wrong with that.

2) and 3) when did you hear me say that Robert was equally as bad as Cersei? I called Cersei a monster. I didn’t call Robert a monster. But that said, Robert is not a great guy either. He’s a great warrior, a great military commander, and he might have made a decent Lord of the Stormlands, but he was a terrible king and a terrible father. In fact, let me ask you this: if Robert was so great, how come Joffrey is so messed up? I don’t care how evil Cersei is, I’d wager that Joffrey wouldn’t be quite so unstable if he’d had a dad who was actually invested in raising his kids. And yes, I’m aware that Westeros has a different view of fatherhood than our society but Ned was clearly an involved parent and his kids were well rounded before the events of the books happened. Meanwhile, Robert is a neglectful dad which means Cersei has full reign over her kids. Robert could have made a difference but he didn’t. That’s on him, even if everything else is on Cersei.

1) No. it’s not. It’s said that Varys would send gifts to him and put them in a Roberts name. It’s also said that a Robert would “play the father” with a Edric whenever he was at Storms End, which was quite often. Storms End is the seat of their House and it’s very close to Kings Landing. I also wouldn’t be surprised if in a lot of upper class families, gifts are bought for their children by aides.

2) By modern standards, he’s kind of a dick. By Westerosi standards, he’s decent. He’s not a great person, but he’s not as bad as some people like to believe either. Joffrey is a bastard born of incest. He was born messed up, because of what Cersei was doing with her brother. As a kid, he cut open a pregnant cat and delivered the babies to Robert. He was hit for that (which is standard practice in Westeros) and Cersei said that if he ever hit Joffrey again, she’d kill him in his sleep. She coddled him, spoiled him and encouraged his worse tendencies.

3) Again, look at how Edric turned out. It’s clear from his conversation with Ned that part of the reason that he was distant from Joffrey, was his cruelty. Even this isn’t necessarily true, mind you. When Robert visited Winterfell and the men went for a hunt, it’s mentioned that Joffrey was riding with his “father”. I’m pretty sure that he was with him for his hunting accident too. If Robert had had married that Florent woman that he had a Edric with, there’s no reason to believe that he’d turn out any worse. Edric was around his father quite a bit and he turned out fine. Cersei has a toxic influence on the men in her life, whether it’s her brother, Jaime, her husband, Robert or her son, Joffrey.