Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 8/3/2020 at 5:08 AM, Springwatch said:

Not really following this. Why are we pretending Sansa is 20?

The entire premise of this thread is : Why is it not creepy when it is Harry, and is creepy when it is Tyrion and Petyr? If Sansa is 20, we no longer have to have a stupid argument about age (where a lot of people are being dishonest with themselves) that seems to be clogging up the main difference in their interactions : Consent, and we can just focus on : Are their interactions predatory or mutual? Her interactions with Petyr are predatory. Petyr acts like a predator towards her. Period. Her interactions with Tyrion are not mutual and make Sansa uncomfortable. Because Tyrion decided to respect her, it isn't anywhere near the horribleness of Petyr Baelish, however Sansa did not give consent for the situation she was forced into. Her interactions with Harry are mutual, she even initiates the flirting. 

 

On 8/3/2020 at 5:08 AM, Springwatch said:

All that makes it impossible to say that she is experiencing a mutual attraction to Harry. She is being coerced. It's LF she needs to please.

Harry doesn't know that. Are you expecting Harry to be an omniscient god? If a woman flirts with me at a party and I flirt back, but she is secretly being coerced by a sexual predator, does that now make me a sexual predator too? Let me answer for you : No, it doesn't. This entire line of thinking seems to be from a different conversation and not from this topic at all...because you aren't responding to me in good faith. You know this wasn't the argument I was making, so why are not responding to what I actually said about the topic on hand. 

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Orm said:

So will you admit that Robert was Cersei's victim?.... Yes or No......

Nice try, but you're off target. I'm a Robert fan. (As far as is reasonably possible .)

YEESSSS - Robert was Cersei's victim. I really, really, really hate emotional cruelty.

Like I said above, I don't actually think women are right all the time - so what are we arguing about exactly?

If Harold gets chewed up by Littlefinger's machinations, call me, and I will sympathise. But for the moment - hell, no! He's going to be Lord of the Eyrie. He's going to marry a beautiful (though low-born) girl. His exes are merely dust on the road behind. The beautiful (though low-born) girl is actually the daughter of a paramount lord, and has a claim to the North.  What more could he want?

[Springwatch]

50 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The entire premise of this thread is : Why is it not creepy when it is Harry, and is creepy when it is Tyrion and Petyr? If Sansa is 20, we no longer have to have a stupid argument about age (where a lot of people are being dishonest with themselves) that seems to be clogging up the main difference in their interactions : Consent, and we can just focus on : Are their interactions predatory or mutual? Her interactions with Petyr are predatory. Petyr acts like a predator towards her. Period. Her interactions with Tyrion are not mutual and make Sansa uncomfortable. Because Tyrion decided to respect her, it isn't anywhere near the horribleness of Petyr Baelish, however Sansa did not give consent for the situation she was forced into. Her interactions with Harry are mutual, she even initiates the flirting. 

Sansa being 20 is a false position; it can never prove anything for 13yo Sansa. You can't take away the age gap, even with Harry. It means there is an imbalance of power. This is how it's taken to be in real life.

There is a much simpler argument that has already been made: Sansa looks older than her true age (a '"bosom as lovely as the queen's, you should not hide it so"). (Thanks, @zandru - argument here.)

So stop saying her interactions with Harry are mutual - it's not even likely she would feel like that. She was ordered to flirt with him. Before that, he had her in tears - he was that brutally rude. Do you think she's forgotten that? And the girl he ditched, with her baby? And the second girl and her baby, that he will ditch next? Where's the courtesy, the gallantry, that she values so much? Nowhere.

Quote

Harry doesn't know that. Are you expecting Harry to be an omniscient god? If a woman flirts with me at a party and I flirt back, but she is secretly being coerced by a sexual predator, does that now make me a sexual predator too? Let me answer for you : No, it doesn't.

You don't need to answer for me. I have never said Harry is a sexual predator (to Sansa, at least). She appears attracted, and he's entitled to take that at face value.

He does have a duty of care to her, because he's older and has the power to hurt her (she could end up with a 'soiled' reputation, like Lysa). If they marry, he will be her lord, and she will be his filly to ride, and breed, and cast away in time. (Thanks, Cersei.)

Quote

This entire line of thinking seems to be from a different conversation and not from this topic at all...because you aren't responding to me in good faith. You know this wasn't the argument I was making, so why are not responding to what I actually said about the topic on hand. 

No bad faith, we're just talking at cross purposes. You can have the last word if you want.

[sweetsunray]

On 8/1/2020 at 11:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he's 19. Attracted to a 13 year old, yuck

Harry was knighted at 18, and that's shortly before Sansa descends of the Giant's Lance to the Gates of the Moon. Furrthermore, while Sansa is in actuality 13, Harry believes her to be 14, which is the age that Sansa pretends Alayne Stone has. That makes an age difference of 4 years as far as Harry knows. By middle age standards, that's a "bless you, girl, you don't have to marry an older guy" match. It's noteworthy that George made a lot of effort in making Harry sound more like a teen boy than a grown man, and he definitely contrasted this with Sansa's new friend having been wed to a guy, old enough to die of a heart attack during his wedding night with her. Furthermore, it's about an engagement and not a wedding yet

On 8/1/2020 at 11:35 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well HtH is closer in age to Tyrion then he is to Sansa. And it's still statutory rape by our laws.

Tyrion is 27, going for 28. Tyrion is 8-9 years older than Harry, and Harry is 4 years older than Alayne Stone, 5 years older than Sansa. So, no, HtH is not closer in age to Tyrion than he is to Sansa.

In Canada and Belgium teens can legally consent to sexual relationships with another teen from 14 onwards, as long as the age gap is no more than 5 years. So, a 14 year old can consent to a relationship with a 19 year old without it being statutory rape. 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This is based on? Evidence is good. I presented mine. ADwD was in 300. I have no reason to believe TWoW wouldn't advance to 301, considering ADwD ends in late August of 300. Sansa was born in 286. That means unless she can stop the passage of time, she is most likely 14 by the time that Harry the Heir interacts with her. Even if she is still 13...she is at most like 2 months away from being 14. Your evidence for her being 13 comes from AFFC II which was in May on 300. Yeah, I did my fucking research. So, you have no idea if she is 13 or 14 despite your confidence that she is 13. My confidence in that she is 14 is that the suggestion, in that chapter is that Sansa is indeed almost 14...and its been roughly 4 months since that happened. Robert Arryn's hair is longer. Time passed. Again though, you are splitting hairs over something that doesn't take away from my point, because you don't have anything to actually refute my points. 

Sansa's name day is estimated to be around 3/4th of the year (our fall time: September or October). She was 11 at the start of aGoT, and 12 around the time of the Hand's tourney and her father's execution. So, she's 12 from the second half of aGoT, throughout aCoK, and most of aSoS.

 

Quote

 

"How old are you, Sansa?" asked Tyrion, after a moment.

"Thirteen," she said, "when the moon turns." (aSoS, Sansa III)

 

 

Tyrion married Sansa when she was 12, but nearly 13. Sansa's wedding night with Tyrion is while she's still 12.

 

 

Quote

 

"How old are you, child?" asked Lady Waynwood.

"Four-fourteen, my lady." For a moment she forgot how old Alayne should be. "And I am no child, but a maiden flowered." (aFfC, Alayne I)

 

"I am 'my lady' at the Gates, but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa. How many years have you, Alayne?"

"Four-and-ten, my lady." She had decided that Alayne Stone should be older than Sansa Stark. (aFfC, Alayne II)

 

 

Sansa is still 13 at the end of aFfC, pretending Alayne is 14, when she goes down the mountain. aDwD is in 301 AC, but does by estimation not go beyond august of 301 AC. The 3-4 months of time furthering in aDwD beyond aFfC's end, is not enough for Sansa to be 14 and Alayne to be 15, and yet allows for enough time to organize the tourney.

 

So, Sansa is 13 close to going 14, when she meets Harry, and he believes she's 14 going on 15. He himself is 18. He was knighted when he was 18 at a tourney that Royce staged after the meeting with Littlefinger as Lord Declarant. Harry would still be 18 imo.

[Wall Flower]

21 hours ago, Orm said:

So will you admit that Robert was Cersei's victim?.... Yes or No......

 

No he isn't......  So, That's why he deserves to be a stalking horse?

 

A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse..... But still doesn't deserve the bad things happening to her......

You noticing a pattern here?

 Hmm.... I don't have time nor will to quote countless book events/statements..... So I'll just quote the Author, 'Robert is a good man in many ways, but he does not make a good king'

Its Martin's word against yours....

 

Lol... Stop trolling.... She was/is always a hateful witch.....

Robert tried to be a decent husband..... But Cersei is the one fucking him at every turn.....killed him by the end....

Maybe if she was a decent wife or just not a horrible hoe in general..... Then Robert didn't need to be an abusive drunkard and the sorry ass we meet at AGOT.....

There are many biases indeed.....

 

Yeah it sucks being female in westeros....  And it equally sucks to be a male too...... Just for different reasons.....

 

Yes, of course you are..... I am too.....

It's just that I am insightful and open enough to admit to that myself and others.... 

I don't want to derail the thread but it's perfectly possible for Cersei to be a bad person or perpetrator and a victim of spousal abuse. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It appears that Robert was drunkenly hurting Cersei in bed (maritally raping her from a non-Westeros perspective) and blowing off her complaint by blaming the wine - while continuing to repeat these actions on many other nights. This occurred from the first year of their marriage, according to Cersei's POV.

Cersei's absolutely responsible for the choices she makes but so is Robert, who's a grown man and a king. Hitting and raping his wife are choices he makes. Robert fans seem to want to fall into the same trap that Robert himself does - blaming everyone else for his own actions and choices. It's Ned and Jon's fault for making him king, Jon's fault for making him marry Cersei and persuading not to kill Targaryen children. Cersei's fault for the death of Lady, although the power rests with Robert. When Robert hits Cersei, his first comment is 'See what she does to me", the classic response of spousal abusers everywhere (so much so that there is a recent prize winning Aussie book about domestic violence which is actually called "See what you made me do').

[Orm]

2 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I don't want to derail the thread but it's perfectly possible for Cersei to be a bad person or perpetrator and a victim of spousal abuse. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It appears that Robert was drunkenly hurting Cersei in bed (maritally raping her from a non-Westeros perspective) and blowing off her complaint by blaming the wine - while continuing to repeat these actions on many other nights. This occurred from the first year of their marriage, according to Cersei's POV.

Cersei's absolutely responsible for the choices she makes but so is Robert, who's a grown man and a king. Hitting and raping his wife are choices he makes. Robert fans seem to want to fall into the same trap that Robert himself does - blaming everyone else for his own actions and choices. It's Ned and Jon's fault for making him king, Jon's fault for making him marry Cersei and persuading not to kill Targaryen children. Cersei's fault for the death of Lady, although the power rests with Robert. When Robert hits Cersei, his first comment is 'See what she does to me", the classic response of spousal abusers everywhere (so much so that there is a recent prize winning Aussie book about domestic violence which is actually called "See what you made me do').

Where have you seen me argue that Rob is not guilty of marital rape and abuse??... Huh? It's part of the appeal of his character and others in ASOIAF. He doesn't want to do bad things. But he sometimes does them anyways cause he can't himself... That is very nuanced and part of what being human is.... Either you admit it or not.....

Then again Cersei(really hard to sympathize with this character, has toxic relationships with every other man in her life) is the only one he's abusing.... The rest is jolly philandering.... I wonder why?

[Orm]

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

YEESSSS - Robert was Cersei's victim. I really, really, really hate emotional cruelty.

Ok..... Just wanted to get that out.....

 

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

so what are we arguing about exactly?

Our ability to sympathize with women compared to men.....

 

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

If Harold gets chewed up by Littlefinger's machinations, call me, and I will sympathise. But for the moment - hell, no! He's going to be Lord of the Eyrie. He's going to marry a beautiful (though low-born) girl. His exes are merely dust on the road behind. The beautiful (though low-born) girl is actually the daughter of a paramount lord, and has a claim to the North.  What more could he want?

I think there's a misunderstanding.... I never took away that Sansa is not a victim of the situation..... I am just pointing out that Harry is too.....

Other than that, I have a gut feeling that LF is going to screw Harry in some way..... I just don't know what....

[R2D]

I guess another reason is that it's basically like a high school relationship. Harry and Sansa are two teens who flirt and dance and theres like an actual courtship going on. Not like LF and Tyrion.

Another thing people don't talk about is the creepiness of the Targ relationships. I mean they're taught believing that they have to marry their siblings. Does this mean Jaehaerys and Baelon and whoever trained their young sisters to be good sister-wives to them? Gross.

[Orm]

9 minutes ago, R2D said:

Another thing people don't talk about is the creepiness of the Targ relationships. I mean they're taught believing that they have to marry their siblings. Does this mean Jaehaerys and Baelon and whoever trained their young sisters to be good sister-wives to them? Gross.

It's funny that people in the fandom complain about relationships which would look completely normal in the real midieval Eurasia..... But don't bother with the super gross Targ sibling relationships which is frowned upon in any time period......lol....

[BlackLightning]

On 8/3/2020 at 9:37 PM, zandru said:

No, Harry is simple and straightforward and honest in his desires: he just wants to frack the bastard girl.

Exactly.

[BlackLightning]

2 hours ago, Orm said:

It's funny that people in the fandom complain about relationships which would look completely normal in the real midieval Eurasia..... But don't bother with the super gross Targ sibling relationships which is frowned upon in any time period......lol....

Stop deflecting and stay on topic.

A forced marriage between a 27 year old politician and 12-going-on-13 year old prisoner where the prisoner is expected to bear the children of the politician as soon as possible is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe.

A man in his mid 30s who both pretends to be the father of a 13 year old orphan who he is fostering and fancies himself as the lover of said 13 year old is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe. Especially when you consider the fact that the man has isolated the 13 year old orphan by framing her for regicide. Aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd on top of all of that, this same man is a major reason why said 13 year old is an homeless orphan.

[Orm]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Stop deflecting and stay on topic.

I try to.... But most threads in this site go off topic if discussed long enough very often as you would notice....

 

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

forced marriage between a 27 year old politician and 12-going-on-13 year old prisoner where the prisoner is expected to bear the children of the politician as soon as possible is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe.

"Tyrion/Sansa is perfectly normal for midieval times"- Orm 2020

Kindly post where and when I have said it, and I will apologize.... If not you apologize...

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

A man in his mid 30s who both pretends to be the father of a 13 year old orphan who he is fostering and fancies himself as the lover of said 13 year old is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe. Especially when you consider the fact that the man has isolated the 13 year old orphan by framing her for regicide. Aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd on top of all of that, this same man is a major reason why said 13 year old is an homeless orphan.

Please, read my posts on this thread before throwing accusations.... And also stop putting words in my mouth....

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Stop deflecting and stay on topic.

A forced marriage between a 27 year old politician and 12-going-on-13 year old prisoner where the prisoner is expected to bear the children of the politician as soon as possible is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe.

Not normal, but it did happen. Happen enough for GRRM to be able to point to enough IRL examples and say he was only going off the 'source material'.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_child_brides

Sadly for GRRM I think he did treat the child bride as a more common occurrence than it actually was. The history of Westeros has far more examples of such marriages, (on average) than medieval Europe seemed to have (or at least recorded).

 

Tyrion's not just a politician, he is the uncle to the King. His status is much higher. Though I agree that Lancel or a younger member of the extended House Lannister would have had better optics.

However the problem Westeros has with Tyrion is not his age, Willas is around the same age, but his height. In universe the age difference is not a problem. Probably be a tiny bit of an issue in real life medieval europe, but I simply put that down to GRRM just having the child brides stick out on his reading of that era.

Quote

A man in his mid 30s who both pretends to be the father of a 13 year old orphan who he is fostering and fancies himself as the lover of said 13 year old is not a normal relationship in medieval Europe. Especially when you consider the fact that the man has isolated the 13 year old orphan by framing her for regicide. Aaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd on top of all of that, this same man is a major reason why said 13 year old is an homeless orphan.

Yup. Littlefinger just seems bizarre.

Tyrion was forced into that marriage and at least is getting something out of it in terms of titles and lands. Tyrion also seems to have shown zero interest, romantically, to Sansa when she was just the daughter of Ned and later royal hostage.

Littlefinger is risking everything he has achieved just to have a version of Cat he remembers from childhood. The pimping her out while also wanting ownership of her, on the surface at least, seems really out there.

Littlefinger and Varys make great villains to the series because we know so little about their true motives. My worry is that written wrongly, both characters can help the series jump the shark if their motives turn out to not make sense.

[zandru]

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Littlefinger is risking everything he has achieved just to have a version of Cat he remembers from childhood. The pimping her out while also wanting ownership of her, on the surface at least, seems really out there.

Actually, the "pimping out" is the point. Baelish may have "loved" Catelyn when he was a callow youth, but losing the fight with her betrothed Brendan Stark in a particularly humiliating way, then getting no sympathy from Cat afterwards, then the "tryst" with Lysa, who he may or may not have realized wasn't Catelyn, and finally getting thrown out of Riverrun and sent back to Sheepshit Castle -- well, it seems to have curdled his affection into a desire for revenge. On Catelyn, on the Starks, and maybe even Lysa, who has been such a whiny, clingy stalker, although she did get him some good gigs.

Why else would Baelish have used Lysa to send a "warning" to Catelyn, which would inflame Stark/Lannister tensions? Why else would he lie to Cat about the catspaw dagger to again implicate the Lannisters? Why else would he put her up in one of his whorehouses and then bring her  upstanding Stark husband, the actual Hand of the King, to visit her there? Hurt and humiliation. Oh, and let's not forget that for years he bragged to all of King's Landing about how he'd popped Lady Catelyn's cherry, and spoiled Lord Stark's marriage.

Now, with Catelyn and Ned safely dead, he can continue his revenge against the family through Sansa, who has the added advantages of looking a lot like Cat, and being young and uncommonly naive and malleable. Plus, she looks to be a good f***! She's got to be trained, right?

Littlefinger is just loathsome. I haven't yet seen anything good about him. He's probably been embezzling from the Iron Throne, too.

 

(My apologies for the rant.)

[BlackLightning]

On 8/5/2020 at 10:31 AM, zandru said:

Actually, the "pimping out" is the point. Baelish may have "loved" Catelyn when he was a callow youth, but losing the fight with her betrothed Brendan Stark in a particularly humiliating way, then getting no sympathy from Cat afterwards, then the "tryst" with Lysa, who he may or may not have realized wasn't Catelyn, and finally getting thrown out of Riverrun and sent back to Sheepshit Castle -- well, it seems to have curdled his affection into a desire for revenge. On Catelyn, on the Starks, and maybe even Lysa, who has been such a whiny, clingy stalker, although she did get him some good gigs.

Why else would Baelish have used Lysa to send a "warning" to Catelyn, which would inflame Stark/Lannister tensions? Why else would he lie to Cat about the catspaw dagger to again implicate the Lannisters? Why else would he put her up in one of his whorehouses and then bring her  upstanding Stark husband, the actual Hand of the King, to visit her there? Hurt and humiliation. Oh, and let's not forget that for years he bragged to all of King's Landing about how he'd popped Lady Catelyn's cherry, and spoiled Lord Stark's marriage.

Now, with Catelyn and Ned safely dead, he can continue his revenge against the family through Sansa, who has the added advantages of looking a lot like Cat, and being young and uncommonly naive and malleable. Plus, she looks to be a good f***! She's got to be trained, right?

Littlefinger is just loathsome. I haven't yet seen anything good about him. He's PROBABLY been embezzling from the Iron Throne, too.

 

(My apologies for the rant.)

Probably?

Oh you sweet summer child.....

[BlackLightning]

On 8/5/2020 at 6:09 AM, Orm said:

I try to.... But most threads in this site go off topic if discussed long enough very often as you would notice....

 

"Tyrion/Sansa is perfectly normal for midieval times"- Orm 2020

Kindly post where and when I have said it, and I will apologize.... If not you apologize...

Please, read my posts on this thread before throwing accusations.... And also stop putting words in my mouth....

I mean, you were the one who felt the need to bring up how Targaryen incest marriages (not only were 98% of them ugh!, the incestuous marriage concept ended up nearly destroying the Targaryen family) and how they were so awful but the fandom only seems to overreact to normal relationships?

Why continue the Targaryen incest thing and use it to make a point unless it was a way of you deflecting or minimizing the legit issues people have with a Tyrion/Sansa or a Littlefinger/Sansa relationship?

Here is your quote that I originally quoted:

It's funny that people in the fandom complain about relationships which would look completely normal in the real midieval Eurasia..... But don't bother with the super gross Targ sibling relationships which is frowned upon in any time period......lol....

Which relationships look completely normal in real medieval Eurasia? The only relationships that were being talked about in your exchange with @R2D  were the Targaryen sibling relationships and the relationships between Sansa/Tyrion and Sansa/Littlefinger.

So what other relationships were you talking about? Cersei and Robert? No, that was in a previous exchange with another person; an exchange I didn't quote. So did I miss something? Or are you saying the relationships between Sansa/Tyrion and Sansa/Littlefinger are normal?

The problem isn't Tyrion and Littlefinger being attracted to Sansa. The problem is because they 1) act on their attraction, 2) have very selfish, exploitative motives and 3) are clear enemies of Sansa and her family.

The Targ sibling relationships are actually not frowned upon in any time period. They were fairly common in ancient and classical history, particularly in Greece and Egypt.

[BlackLightning]

On 8/5/2020 at 9:59 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion's not just a politician, he is the uncle to the King. His status is much higher. Though I agree that Lancel or a younger member of the extended House Lannister would have had better optics.

However the problem Westeros has with Tyrion is not his age, Willas is around the same age, but his height. In universe the age difference is not a problem. Probably be a tiny bit of an issue in real life medieval europe, but I simply put that down to GRRM just having the child brides stick out on his reading of that era.

No, the problem that Westeros has with Tyrion is his birth. His name.

Lannisters have been at war with House Stark; not only that but they are deciding to marry the youngest son of House Lannister to the oldest daughter of House Stark in a scheme to destroy House Stark and seize control of Winterfell. Not to mention that the younger Lannister son was accused of attempting to murder a boy of House Stark?

And all of that is happening simultaneous to the orchestration of the Red Wedding.

Yeah it's bad.

It's not even about Tyrion's dwarfism or his Lannister name. Tyrion is a known lecher and drunk. 

There are very, very few people in the Seven Kingdoms who speak highly of Tyrion. 98% of series most informed and beloved characters don't have anything real good to say about Tyrion. Not even pre-arrest, pre-Wot5K in A Game of Thrones. People still talk about Ned Stark in a very positive light and he's been dead for years.

The last time Bran thought about Tyrion was the day he met Osha and he never even thought highly of Tyrion; his thoughts of him were very dispassionate; yet Bran thinks about Ned frequently. Daenerys has never even set foot in Westeros and she is reevaluating her perspective of Ned Stark, no thanks to Ser Barristan Selmy who stood against Ned Stark on several different occasions. Falyse Stokeworth and Lollys only were kind to Tyrion because he was a Lannister and a Lannister marriage would bring House Stokeworth prestige, power and more money. There's a Braavosi play that talks about Ned Stark's tenure as Hand (as Arya is playing a version of Sansa who is raped by Tyrion, it's safe to assume that the Starks are portrayed as tragic heroes that the audience is to sympathize with) in a presumably positive light. Even Cersei thinks wistfully about what could've been with Ned Stark and she was a bitter enemy of his.

The only one who actually likes Tyrion is Jon and I'm not sure if that was even true in A Dance with Dragons. Jon was very fond of Tyrion back in A Game of Thrones; I'm sure he had a very different opinion about Tyrion once he found out that he was married to Sansa. He knew Sansa wouldn't willingly agree to such a marriage.

The only large group of people that loves Tyrion is the fandom. No wonder as he consistently and easily has some of the best and most informative chapters in the entire series. But even that number seems to be dwindling and the ones that still really like him are actually more enamored with Peter Dinklage.

Tyrion is not a good person.

[R2D]

52 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I mean, you were the one who felt the need to bring up how Targaryen incest marriages (not only were 98% of them ugh!, the incestuous marriage concept ended up nearly destroying the Targaryen family) and how they were so awful but the fandom only seems to overreact to normal relationships?

Why continue the Targaryen incest thing and use it to make a point unless it was a way of you deflecting or minimizing the legit issues people have with a Tyrion/Sansa or a Littlefinger/Sansa relationship?

Here is your quote that I originally quoted:

It's funny that people in the fandom complain about relationships which would look completely normal in the real midieval Eurasia..... But don't bother with the super gross Targ sibling relationships which is frowned upon in any time period......lol....

Which relationships look completely normal in real medieval Eurasia? The only relationships that were being talked about in your exchange with @R2D  were the Targaryen sibling relationships and the relationships between Sansa/Tyrion and Sansa/Littlefinger.

So what other relationships were you talking about? Cersei and Robert? No, that was in a previous exchange with another person; an exchange I didn't quote. So did I miss something? Or are you saying the relationships between Sansa/Tyrion and Sansa/Littlefinger are normal?

The problem isn't Tyrion and Littlefinger being attracted to Sansa. The problem is because they 1) act on their attraction, 2) have very selfish, exploitative motives and 3) are clear enemies of Sansa and her family.

The Targ sibling relationships are actually not frowned upon in any time period. They were fairly common in ancient and classical history, particularly in Greece and Egypt.

I think he was saying that theres nothing wrong with Harry/Sansa from a medieval perspective.

As for me I brought it up because people in the fandom say there's nothing wrong with Targ relationships because they're consensual....but the weird power dynamics between siblings makes consent pretty iffy (IN MY OPINION), and I don't think they're healthy. If you're brought up believing you have to marry your sister and if you develop your relationship with her aimed towards her being your wife in the future, that's pretty much what we'd call 'grooming'. If it seemed like I was deflecting from the topic at hand I did not mean to.

[Orm]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Why continue the Targaryen incest thing and use it to make a point unless it was a way of you deflecting or minimizing the legit issues people have with a Tyrion/Sansa or a Littlefinger/Sansa relationship

The Targ incest and marriages are worse than  Tyrion/Sansa  and some of them are even worse than LF/Sansa for my taste....

If you read all my posts you would know that I frown upon Tyrion or Lf having a marital relationship with Sansa... But I do give a pass for Harry somewhat....

So the accusation ur throwing at me is dishonest....

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

The Targ sibling relationships are actually not frowned upon in any time period. They were fairly common in ancient and classical history, particularly in Greece and Egypt

There are Greek literatures which depict the catastrophic consequences of committing incest even unknowingly....

And let's not talk about the genetic disorders the Egyptians suffered...