Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

[zandru]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I disagree with that.

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough.

Sorry, but what you've quoted actually confirms what I wrote. Ned is Ned: a man who feels that fathering and abandoning bastards is despicable. He's out of step with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Some will therefore call him "stupid" for having, you know, morals. Decency. But his kind is rare.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

And here, this quote from Tywin, where he regards Tyrion's disquietude as some kind of foolish finickiness. Maybe as shameful as Tyrion's practice of using professional sex services.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Sorry, but what you've quoted actually confirms what I wrote. Ned is Ned: a man who feels that fathering and abandoning bastards is despicable. He's out of step with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Some will therefore call him "stupid" for having, you know, morals. Decency. But his kind is rare.

Ned's not that out of step with the people of Westeros. And the fact that it is only a select amount of whore houses who specialize in girls that young suggests that this is not an everyday vice.

Lusting after 12 and 13 year olds does not appear to be the norm for adult men in Westeros.

6 hours ago, zandru said:

And here, this quote from Tywin, where he regards Tyrion's disquietude as some kind of foolish finickiness. Maybe as shameful as Tyrion's practice of using professional sex services.

But the point is Tywin does not think Tyrion should be lusting after Sansa at her age.

Marriage and lust are two separate things in the noble world. But openly lusting after 12 and 13 year olds is not the norm.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

And the fact that it is only a select amount of whore houses who specialize in girls that young suggests that this is not an everyday vice.

Well, we don't know that. It's not necessary to "specialize" in pre-teens to sometimes have a nice young virginal girl-child available, to those who will pay the price.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

But the point is Tywin does not think Tyrion should be lusting after Sansa at her age.

Where are you seeing this? I read that Tywin wanted Tyrion to immediately bed Sansa on wedding day, and preferably "give her a big belly" (the romantic way that Westerosi men like to refer to pregnancy). Tywin would be reasonably content for Tyrion to merely de-flower Sansa, if he's not up to doing A Man's Work. Tywin's disapproval is with Tyrion's reluctance to immediately impregnate his Ticket to Winterfell and thus gain the right to Wardenship of the North. Tywin cares nothing for Sansa as a person.

To be fair, Tywin seems to view everybody in this cold, transactional manner, particularly his own children.

[Jon Fossoway]

Oh, the presentism.

[Bernie Mac]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, we don't know that. It's not necessary to "specialize" in pre-teens to sometimes have a nice young virginal girl-child available, to those who will pay the price.

It seems to suggest this. Ned's reaction does indicate that courting and lusting after 12 and 13 year old girls is not the norm in their society.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Where are you seeing this?

In the very quote I supplied to you. Even Tywin understands that lusting after 12 and 13 year olds is a little odd. He wants Tyrion to seal the marriage, but after that if Tyrion needs to wait a year or two to have sex with his bride he's okay with it.

Why would Tywin make that offer if their society it was perfectly normal to lust after girls that age?

[GoldenGail3]

1 hour ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Oh, the presentism.

Post modernism in GOT is a real bitch.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 8/13/2020 at 6:59 PM, Orm said:

Ok I didn't read this when Lord Raventree hall went ranting and venting his life issues on the subject of Why Robert was more bad than good......

Just asking for retrospect and morality check.... Who do you think is the worse human being, Aegon I Targaryen or Robert I Baratheon?

And I did go back to read the Cersei/Robert "rape scene" .... It wasn't actually as extreme as rape, but rather forced, and by Cersie's admission she doesn't feel victimized.... Jaime and Barristan(while they do mention the brutalisation of Rhaella by the mad cunt) but never mention it, Nor does ser Arys...... And Robert after getting the off putting gesture from her, leaves her as she is...... That's about it on Roberts end.... compare that to Cersei's emotional abuse and evil deceit on every turn....

Okay Orm, enough. You, Orm, were ranting and raving about, "What a great guy Robert was" and "I don't care about Cersei's rape becayse she is worse than Robert" and "Its not rape, just forced sex".  Let us start with the last one. Rape's definition : forced sex. Done. That is what rape is. You can't redefine a word because it's defintion isn't convenient to your argument. Emotional abuse could, I suppose be on par with rape. However, an aspect of rape, is that it is indeed emotionally abusive, especially when the perpetrator intentionally downplays the rape and gaslights the victim. 

Now secondly, I was not "ranting" anymore than you are. In fact, go check how much yiu have posted compared to me on this topic. Pot calling the Kettle black much?

Thirdly, I did not "air" my personal story. Not at all. Show me where I did? I didn't. I clearly stated the shitty things Robert. I repeatedly told you that I agreed with that Cersei was worse than Robert, and merely that Cersei doing bad things doesn't excuse Robert doing bad things, but most specifically that no one deserves to be raped. You have repeatedly used straw man arguments against me, misconstrued my words, and blatantly lied about what I have said. Enough. If you do it again, we are going to have a real problem. This isn't Orm's facebook, this is a forum where people share ideas. People get to disagree with you, and shouldn't have their names dragged for doing so. Keep my name out of your mouth (or rather out of your...writing) unless you are speaking to me directly. 

Lastly, it isn't suprising that Barristan and Jaime wouldn't mention Cersei's rape. Cersei was not screaming "I am being raped" as many marital and date rape victims don't. Many people, like you are doing right here, downplay marital and date rape as not actually rape, for this very reason. Cersei said no. Robert had sex with her anyway. That is rape. Can I seriously suggest something to you Orm? I really think you should learn more about rape. If you are interested, I can DM you links. I think you will say no, but seriously, I think you need to read victims stories and try ro put yourself in their shoes. And finally, I hate having to say this again, but : Rape is bad Orm. It is indeed as bad as emotional abuse. Rape is bad Ormz 

[Orm]

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What a great guy Robert was"

Wasn't he though? He's the guy who overthrew a dynasty and an evil king...

That warrants for some greatness, doesn't it?

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

and "I don't care about Cersei's rape becayse she is worse than Robert" and "Its not rape, just forced sex".  Let

So does Cersie's rape equate to let's say Aerys/Rhaella or Aegon/Naerys?

Just so to know your awarness of degrees of rape/brutalising.....

And Where have you seen me post Bob is not guilty of marital abuse against Cersei, huh?....

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Now secondly, I was not "ranting" anymore than you are. In

Fair enough......

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Lastly, it isn't suprising that Barristan and Jaime wouldn't mention Cersei's rape

Why exactly? They mention the Brutalisation of poor Rhaella.... But doesn't care to mention for Cersei? Is it because maybe they like me,  know that Cersei is full of shit?

Barristan outright admits that Bob was a good knight, upheld chivalrous conduct... To Danny his nemesis of all people....

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei said no. 

Quote, please? I remember she says it as the "worst nights of her life" but I don't remember her saying no and Bob still having his way..... I remember Bob felt remorse for his drunken stupor, Cersei still bashed a horn in him, And I assume Bob wasn't petty to take revenge out of it as no one mentions it afterwards....

 And I find it really hard to believe that Jaime would stand there when Bob was brutalising Cersei as you claim......

All we have that Bob is a rapist is the only account of Cersei's convulated consciousness who can't even keep her storys straight......

And I am gonna play devils advocate here.... Bob suffers from alcoholism and depression.... Doesn't that factor in when we are discussing the marital rape by modern standards if we are Judging objectively?

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Robert had sex with her anyway. That is rape.

By our standards , yes....By theirs nope.... You can't charge him of anything to want to sleep with his wife at least once in 2 weeks for marital/heir purposes which again Cersei Jeopardizes....

The thing is if Bob was a scum as to get kicks out off forcing women..... There is lack of evidence to and contrary evidence to that notion..... If you put quotes( I may have forgotten) besides from Cersei though I would re-evaluate...

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

And finally, I hate having to say this again, but : Ra

I really wish that you hadn't tried to ingradiate this in me again...

 

5 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Rape is bad Orm. It is indeed as bad as emotional abuse. Rape is bad Ormz 

"Rape isn't bad"-Orm post the post where I have said it and I will apologize to you......

Rape is indeed very bad worthy of capital sentencing/punishment depending on the severity of the case....... I am not saying or even proposing otherwise.....

But in context to how and why Bob died, his Death was worse than Cersie's rape..... Period.....

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei said no. Robert had sex with her anyway.

Did Cersei say no? She might have, but I don't remember.

Do you really care what Cersei wants, or is she just an object example to make a point with? If you want to be humane and just, you've got to recognise the individual, with all their messy human nature.

The most important thing in Cersei's life is her children. She wants them to be safe, she wants them to be princes and princess, and she wants them to be fathered by Jaime.

For all that, she needs regular sex with Robert. She doesn't have to enjoy it. She doesn't want to enjoy it - she despises him, and besides her lover is Jaime.

 

[Springwatch]

10 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, we don't know that. It's not necessary to "specialize" in pre-teens to sometimes have a nice young virginal girl-child available, to those who will pay the price.

Correct. 'Emma had decreed that Rosey's maidenhood would cost a golden dragon'. This being at a pub used by students of all classes.

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Ned's not that out of step with the people of Westeros. And the fact that it is only a select amount of whore houses who specialize in girls that young suggests that this is not an everyday vice.

Lusting after 12 and 13 year olds does not appear to be the norm for adult men in Westeros.

But the point is Tywin does not think Tyrion should be lusting after Sansa at her age.

Marriage and lust are two separate things in the noble world. But openly lusting after 12 and 13 year olds is not the norm.

To the bolded, yes and no. I don't think there's an epidemic of paedophilia in Westeros. Tragically, young girls are probably recognised as desirable for more mundane reasons (evil can be mundane too).

Rarity value. Anything rare can become a trophy to boast about - and that's exactly how Lazy Leo and LF speak of girls' virginities. Obviously, a virgin whore is very rare.

Health. More years spent as a whore means more patrons means a greater chance of catching the pox, which seems to be incurable. (Tarly ordered that a whore be washed inside and out with lye soap, which sounds useless and cruel.)

Looks. I'd guess most Westeros men think of maidens as women, but less attractive, undeveloped women. Still, it can't be denied that the environment is harsh, especially for whores: few products for skin and hair, no sunscreen, probably a lot of alcohol as comfort. So - flawless beauty probably means young. And it all links back to health again.

Writing all this makes me sad; but it's worth saying, because mundane motives are more common than evil ones.

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/7/2020 at 6:46 PM, Orm said:

I am a bit confused with this statement.... Ofc Sansa's non-existent children have legitimate claim to the north.... Especially if her brothers are all dead and without issue...

What exactly are you trying to say here? The constant ellipsis does not help your posts.

On 8/7/2020 at 6:46 PM, Orm said:

But either they will be Starks or Lannisters or insert-name is entirely dependent on the power which controls her, no?......

No. Or at least not in the medium to long term. Tyrion and his heirs will be more interested in their own ambitions.

We see this in actual real life history, Kings would make their brothers, sons and others very powerful Lords and those Lords would mostly put their own interests first. If they aligned with the King so much the better, but they'd be autonomous rulers who still ruled, mostly, on their own terms.

On 8/7/2020 at 6:46 PM, Orm said:

 

And when she was married to Tyrion she was under the thumb of the Lannisters...... So I assume Tywin's plan(stupid cause her brothers are alive) was to install a Lannister as the lord paramount of the north,right?

Yes. Tywin wanted harmony, the Great Houses at peace with each other. But Sansa's heirs would still be Starks

[Orm]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But Sansa's heirs would still be Starks

By Tywin's indication I never got the impression that he would allow it out of rational reasons or goodwill.....

He wanted Tyrion to get heirs by Sansa so that he could install the Lannister name and the lion banner in the North.....if he has the power to do so

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, Orm said:

By Tywin's indication I never got the impression that he would allow it out of rational reasons or goodwill.....

What do you mean indication? Can you quote from the books were you never thought that possible?

5 minutes ago, Orm said:

He wanted Tyrion to get heirs by Sansa so that he could install the Lannister name and the lion banner in the North.....if he has the power to do so

At no point does he say or suggest that. Tyrion seems to understand what his father means

"You shall never have Casterly Rock, I promise you. But wed Sansa Stark, and it is just possible that you might win Winterfell."

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill.

 

If it was to become a Lannister holding he'd be Lord, rather than Lord Protector. Such titles are often given to consorts of female rulers or regents of underage rulers.

 

• Ned as Regent would be Lord Protector; " Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."
• By marrying Lysa Littlefinger became Lord Protector of the Vale; . Petyr will soon set all that to rights, though. I shall make him Lord Protector of the Vale."
• Robar Baratheon, when he married the Queen and became Regent also became Lord Protector; and the guidance of Lord Robar of House Baratheon, Lord Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King in those early years. Once in his majority, the king wed his sister Alysanne, and theirs was a fruitful marriage.

 

Tyrion would be made Lord, his children would be. And there is no reason to think that what happens in Dorne with female rulers does not also happen in the South. That the children take the name of the lands they want to inherit.

[Orm]

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What do you mean indication? Can you quote from the books were you never thought that possible?

He dismantled and shat on the Starks by using severe underhanded tactics.... What gives you the impression that he would Honor them by letting Sansa keep her house name or banners if he could do otherwise??....

Stark legacy in the North is very strong... Tywin knows this and intended to use this.... He could get away with naming Sansa's Heirs Lannisters, if non of her Brothers have any issues including Jon Snow......

Is there a quote which specifically states that Sansa's children by Tyrion would be named Starks??

[Bernie Mac]

11 minutes ago, Orm said:

He dismantled and shat on the Starks by using severe underhanded tactics....

?

11 minutes ago, Orm said:

 

What gives you the impression that he would Honor them by letting Sansa keep her house name or banners if he could do otherwise??....

Nothing to do with honouring them. They are the ruling House of the North, an institution. Their name carries weight that the Lannisters will never have in the North.

The goal is peace with and unity with the Baratheons and the Lannisters. Tyrion can help with that. But Tywin is smart enough to know that there is no upside from calling Sansa's children Lannisters as they'd face rebellions from actual Starks in the North.

11 minutes ago, Orm said:

Stark legacy in the North is very strong... Tywin knows this and intended to use this.... He could get away with naming Sansa's Heirs Lannisters, if non of her Brothers have any issues including Jon Snow......

No he could not. There are other branches of Starks. The North would just band behind one of them at the first point they were pissed with a decision made by their new Lannister lord.

 

11 minutes ago, Orm said:

Is there a quote which specifically states that Sansa's children by Tyrion would be named Starks??

Dude, you were the one who said Tywin indicated they'd be called Lannisters. I asked you first. please provide this.

[Orm]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, you were the one who said Tywin indicated they'd be called Lannisters. I asked you first. please provide this.

The fact that marriages in Westeros apart from Dorne are patrilineal... I never got the impression that Tywin planned the Tyrion/Sansa marriage any differently....

But let's agree to disagree....

[Texas Hold Em]

On 8/1/2020 at 5:16 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So let's just agree that Sansa is one place where you can see just how fucked the timeline is on occasion, as Sansa at 13, having barely gotten her menstrual cycle, is considered to be sexually attractive. This is particularly obvious in the ball at the beginning of TWOW. So why is this double standard where a good part of this forum is screaming pedophile at Tyrion and Littlefinger (and remember Tyrion didn't do anything and had every political incentive to do it) while nobody even comments at Harrold and the Vale knights?

Most people just do not care to comment on Harrold.  Thirteen in cave man days is old enough for a mate.  There is a disconnect between biology and modern beliefs.  

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/15/2020 at 1:23 PM, Orm said:

The fact that marriages in Westeros apart from Dorne are patrilineal...

Always? Are they?

Lady Oakheart's children are all Oakhearts. Lady Waywnood's children are all Waynwood's. Lady Mormont's children are all Mormont's. The Stokewoth daughters take their mothers name.

Currently there are dozens of Lady rulers throughout Westeros. There is no indication that these Houses are about to die out and be replaced in name by their husbands. 

We also see female rulers during the History of the World of Ice and Fire and Fire * Blood and those Houses still exist in the current timeline.

 

[tensorjack]

Maybe Westeros years are longer than Earth years, so Sansa's actually 16 or 17 (Earth) years old?  That would make an awful lot of the scenes with the Stark kids make more sense tbh.  (i.e., does Arya act like any 10 year old you've ever seen?  Well, maybe she's not actually 10!)

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, tensorjack said:

Maybe Westeros years are longer than Earth years, so Sansa's actually 16 or 17 (Earth) years old?  That would make an awful lot of the scenes with the Stark kids make more sense tbh.  (i.e., does Arya act like any 10 year old you've ever seen?  Well, maybe she's not actually 10!)

You think Walder Frey is in his 120's?