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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

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7 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he's 19. Attracted to a 13 year old, yuck

I think this would be considered legal a century or so ago. In some countries it's still legal.

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51 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm asking why so many people bitch about Tyrion and LF but not Harrold. Saying, fuck it it's medieval stories and GRRM really messed up his timeline is ok. Saying, let's apply a moral point here, statutory rape laws exist for a reason is also a fair point. But there seems to be this double standard in regards to Tyrion and LF.

I think it's mainly because GRRM fucked up the timeline.

But for me, Harrold hasn't actually done anything to Sansa other than look and be lustful. I'm at the ready to judge him pretty harshly if in the future he acts in a way to harm her, although he's a super minor character who I doubt will be in the story for long enough to impact Sansa's life in any substantial way.

Tyrion and Littlefinger both actively took (and still are taking in Littlefinger's case) steps which were bad for Sansa and damaged her. Harrold hasn't (yet).

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Posted (edited)

One, because he's only about 4 years older than her and they are still in teenhood. Two, Littlefinger says and does things that are far more pedophilic - he lies to her to gain sexual access. "A gift a woman can only give once" (gross) "you might have been mine" (gross) "you are safe with me" (gross). He also tells her to seduce Harry in the first place. Tyrion desires her, marries her, has incel-like thoughts, and abuses women. Three, Harry is just a fat-shaming asshole who hasn't crossed lines like Tyrion and LF have. They dance, he says she's comely, he asks for her favor. It's not crossing a line. Now if he starts getting all handsy like Marillion then maybe you might see more people question it.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Littlefinger is just creepy. He's transferred his desire for Catelyn to her daughter. That's just gross. Moreover, his former "love" for Catelyn has transitioned into a baleful program to smear and degrade her, by telling and retelling the lie that he "had her maidenhead" before Lord Eddard Stark. He used Cat to start and then further his Stark/Lannister conflict, going through Cat's mentally unbalanced sister, Lysa and playing on Lysa's infatuation with him. And now he's doing the same to Sansa, as a surrogate for Catelyn in both desire and degradation. He's made Sansa a "bastard" -- HIS bastard, no less. He's training her in the arts of deception and seduction, just like his employees at his whorehouses. This is why folks don't like his relationship to Sansa, not the anachronistic statutory thing.

People hate Tyrion for, I think, more diffuse reasons. The little man never forced himself on Sansa, never took advantage of her, was in every way her defender ... except for the Tywin-imposed marriage. Tyrion didn't want to leave her to feckless, lying, easily manipulated courtier Lancel or some even worse twig on the Lannister family tree. And Tyrion was tempted by Winterfell. We can't deny that But once again, he never did anything to Sansa, not even verbal abuse.

I suspect folks hate Tyrion vis a vis Sansa because she "hates" him. First, for being a Lannister and second, his extreme ugliness. Also his unfortunate insistence on whoring and drinking.

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57 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I doubt will be in the story for long enough to impact Sansa's life in any substantial way

I am just going to say that he might be Jon Arryn's true heir ( we have the tid bit that Harry looks like him) since it is highly probable that Robin isn't actually a true Arryn(Lf's bastard).......

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2 hours ago, Orm said:

I am just going to say that he might be Jon Arryn's true heir ( we have the tid bit that Harry looks like him) since it is highly probable that Robin isn't actually a true Arryn(Lf's bastard).......

A recent thread discussed that possibility (Sweetrobin being Littlefinger's by-blow with Lysa). It's more "highly unlikely" than highly probable. On the other hand, the possibility that "Harry the Heir" is a Jon Arryn by-blow is sort of interesting. After all, nearly everybody is someone other than what they seem to be ... and all the mysterious women are Shiera Seastar.

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2 hours ago, Orm said:

I am just going to say that he might be Jon Arryn's true heir ( we have the tid bit that Harry looks like him) since it is highly probable that Robin isn't actually a true Arryn(Lf's bastard).......

Even if he's not Jon's heir, he's still Robert's heir, and Robert will die soon

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4 hours ago, zandru said:

Littlefinger is just creepy. He's transferred his desire for Catelyn to her daughter. That's just gross. Moreover, his former "love" for Catelyn has transitioned into a baleful program to smear and degrade her, by telling and retelling the lie that he "had her maidenhead" before Lord Eddard Stark. He used Cat to start and then further his Stark/Lannister conflict, going through Cat's mentally unbalanced sister, Lysa and playing on Lysa's infatuation with him. And now he's doing the same to Sansa, as a surrogate for Catelyn in both desire and degradation. 

Broadly agree on his creepiness. On the specific of Cat's maidenhead however, Littlefinger may actually believe she gave it to him. When he was wounded after his duel with Brandon, Lysa snuck into his bed and there is an implication that in his fevered state he confused the two, as he cried out Cat's name.

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26 minutes ago, Buried Treasure said:

On the specific of Cat's maidenhead however, Littlefinger may actually believe she gave it to him.

Oh, I've heard that one before. Nonetheless, the way he trots around the story, bragging about he dishonored the Lady Stark, shows that he's no gentleman and has hostile feelings towards Catelyn.

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Posted (edited)

Because both Tyrion and Littlefinger are twice her age, whereas Harry is 5 years older. Personally I am not okay with it but I can begrudgingly accept why people aren't that creeped out by it. Secondly Tyrion and Littlefinger have made Sansa uncomfortable with their lust. That is another strike against them. Harry might be an rude medieval version of a college frat boy, but compared to war criminals like Tyrion and Littlefinger he's a saint.

Edited by Elegant Woes

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9 hours ago, zandru said:

People hate Tyrion for, I think, more diffuse reasons. The little man never forced himself on Sansa, never took advantage of her, was in every way her defender ... except for the Tywin-imposed marriage. Tyrion didn't want to leave her to feckless, lying, easily manipulated courtier Lancel or some even worse twig on the Lannister family tree. And Tyrion was tempted by Winterfell. We can't deny that But once again, he never did anything to Sansa, not even verbal abuse.

Yeah, people forget this, especially the bolded. Tyrion may not have entered into the marriage for entirely noble reasons, but he was still manipulated into it. He shouldn't be lumped in with LF and Marillion, men who acted on their lust.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, zandru said:

A recent thread discussed that possibility (Sweetrobin being Littlefinger's by-blow with Lysa). It's more "highly unlikely" than highly probable. On the other hand, the possibility that "Harry the Heir" is a Jon Arryn by-blow is sort of interesting. After all, nearly everybody is someone other than what they seem to be ... and all the mysterious women are Shiera Seastar.

You guys have discussions where you make it unlikely that Gendry is Robert's by-blow and Joffrey might actually be his son.....lol....

I think it's more likely Robin isn't Jon's son, because......

1)Lysa is a ginger and Jon is a blondie.....

2) An offspring between a blondie and a ginger tends not to have dark or dark-brown hair......

Edited by Orm
Few change

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24 minutes ago, Orm said:

You guys have discussions where you make it unlikely that Gendry is Robert's by-blow and Joffrey might actually be his son.....lol....

I think it's more likely Robin isn't Jon's son, because......

1)Lysa is a ginger and Jon is a blondie.....

2) An offspring between a blondie and a ginger tends not to have dark or dark-brown hair......

Lysa has auburn hair, not ginger. It's not at all impossible for an auburn haired person and a blond to produce a brown haired child. Plus, this is fantasy genetics we're talking about.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/1/2020 at 6:16 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So let's just agree that Sansa is one place where you can see just how fucked the timeline is on occasion, as Sansa at 13, having barely gotten her menstrual cycle, is considered to be sexually attractive. This is particularly obvious in the ball at the beginning of TWOW. So why is this double standard where a good part of this forum is screaming pedophile at Tyrion and Littlefinger (and remember Tyrion didn't do anything and had every political incentive to do it) while nobody even comments at Harrold and the Vale knights?

Harrold was born in 281-282 according to the wiki, and Sansa in 286...also Alayne is supposed to be older than Sansa (of 285). So in other words, from Harrold's point of view he may be 3 years older than Alayne...so I am honestly confused what the heck you are talking about. It is at least 300 in TWoW, so Alayne should be 15, and Harrold could be as young as 18. That happened, in real life, in my high school. Now lets compare that to Petyr Baelish, who is, wait for it, 32. sorry, but that is not the same. At all. Hell even if Sansa was actually 13 as you claim, it is STILL not the same. While as a 19 year old might be somewhat creepy, the maturity level (you know he thing that makes pedophilia creepy, and why a 19 year old dating a 16 year old is way way less creepy than a 60 year old dating a 18 year old despite the differences in legality) between Sansa and Harry the Heir is pretty clearly similar. Petyr in the other hand, is a fucking old ass man by Westorosi standards. He acts, and talks like a pedophile when he is around Sansa. He is a creepy fucking creepy ass dude. I am here mostly to shut down anyone's thought of defending Petyr Baelish. Petyr is a petty, controlling creep of a man. His interactions with Sansa are plainly creepy as SANSA IS CREEPED OUT BY HIM (Especially in AGoT). He is clearly a pedophile, but even if you want to say "Sansa is a woman grown, and that is fine in universe", Baelish wanted her WHEN SHE WAS NOT. There is direct mention that Sansa has "developed" by ASoS which means she was "not developed" in AGoT. Baelish was attracted to an obviously undeveloped child (who was 12 at the time...not 15 like the age Harrold thought she was). Again though, because I am tired of any sort of Baelish love on this forum. Baelish is an absolute piece of shit even without being a pedophile. He never loved "Catelyn". If he did he would have been happy for her, not been a jealous creep that was directly responsible for the downfall of her family and the deaths of her loved ones and eventually herself. He was obsessed with Catelyn. He used Lysa Tully for advancement claiming to love her all while not giving a flying fuck about her He is a shit shit person even in a universe crowded with shit people. And he is a pedophile. As far as giving Tyrion shit, i have rarely, if ever seem that happen...but again 24 and 13 (the age Sansa was when marrying Tyrion) is different than 18 and 15. it just is. Saying it is not is dishonest and you know it. 

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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10 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Broadly agree on his creepiness. On the specific of Cat's maidenhead however, Littlefinger may actually believe she gave it to him. When he was wounded after his duel with Brandon, Lysa snuck into his bed and there is an implication that in his fevered state he confused the two, as he cried out Cat's name.

He may well believe that.  But, for a man to go round bragging that he took the maidenhead of a prominent noblewoman (effectively, telling people she's a whore, by the standards of this world) is gross.  

LF's attitude towards Catelyn was that "if I can't have her, no one will", and Sansa is now his substitute Catelyn.

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18 hours ago, Buried Treasure said:

Broadly agree on his creepiness. On the specific of Cat's maidenhead however, Littlefinger may actually believe she gave it to him. When he was wounded after his duel with Brandon, Lysa snuck into his bed and there is an implication that in his fevered state he confused the two, as he cried out Cat's name.

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

He may well believe that.  But, for a man to go round bragging that he took the maidenhead of a prominent noblewoman (effectively, telling people she's a whore, by the standards of this world) is gross.  

LF's attitude towards Catelyn was that "if I can't have her, no one will", and Sansa is now his substitute Catelyn.

Also, Catelyn repeatedly says it didn't happen. At some point, I imagine Lysa told him how it happened. Lysa doesn't exactly seem like a person who wouldn't repeatedly mention what happen to the point that even the stupidest person would have realized they actually had sex with Lysa and not Catelyn (if he ever thought it was Catelyn in the first place). So, I assume at some point, given that Littlefinger at least doesn't appear to be an idiot, that he realized he didn't have sex with Catelyn, and yet continued to say he did...basically because he is the Westeros version of a modern day incel, and again.....as I said before...just one of the creepiest/shittiest people in the entire universe. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Also, Catelyn repeatedly says it didn't happen. At some point, I imagine Lysa told him how it happened. Lysa doesn't exactly seem like a person who wouldn't repeatedly mention what happen to the point that even the stupidest person would have realized they actually had sex with Lysa and not Catelyn (if he ever thought it was Catelyn in the first place).

Good points! I would imagine that Lysa would also have gone on and on about the 'beautiful baby boy' that the two of them 'made' together, and how evil papa Hoster killed it. And this too-oft repeated tale would have totally killed Baelish's desire for further physical relations with Lysa. So he'd have kept leading her on, while they were both in King's Landing, getting her to do his disruptions, his lies with the promise that he would marry her as soon as it was 'safe.'

Yeah, I'd rank Littlefinger up with Ramsey Snow/Bolton in terms of evil, only much smarter and totally covert, in contrast to Ramsey's overt, well-known cruelties.

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On 8/1/2020 at 6:35 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well HtH is closer in age to Tyrion then he is to Sansa. And it's still statutory rape by our laws.

No he isn't. Look at the wiki. Harry is 18-19. Sansa is 14 (and pretending to be 15). Tyrion is 27. Where are you getting your numbers? At the time Tyrion was married to Sansa, I believe he was 26 and she was 13. Tyrion was twice Sansa's age. Harry thinks he is 3-4 years older than her. That isn't the same situation at all. Also, by the way, I don't know where you live...but if Harry is 18 (which is one of the two choices of his age accordinig to the wiki) and Sansa is 14 (which she is), here is the law from where I grew up : "The age of consent in Iowa is 16, with a close-in-age exemption for those aged 14 and 15, who may engage in sexual acts with partners less than 4 years older" In other words, they could legally have sex in Iowa (and many many many other states and countries). So no, it's not statutory rape possibly. Your entire premise is incorrect because you have badly misunderstood the characters ages in this story. 

 

On 8/1/2020 at 6:45 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It's pretty yuck too, but at least Lyanna is at an age where I can buy her being sexually developed.

Sansa isn't the same age as when she was married to Tyrion, and especially not as when Petyr first was clearly creeping on her (she was 12 in AGoT). Do you not understand time has passed in the books? It is 300 in ADwD, Sansa was born in 286. According to the wiki, Lyanna would have been 14-15 during the tounament in Harrenhall (in other words the same freaking age) and 15-16 when she went (probably willingly) with Rhaegar. Rhaegar would have been like 22 at the tourney and 23 at the time he "took" Lyanna. In other words, Harrold is significantly closer in age to Sansa then Rhaegar was to Lyanna. 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 12:33 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

They didn't need to. Their engineering was just too good. One thing you really didn't get the point. I'm asking why so many people bitch about Tyrion and LF but not Harrold. Saying, fuck it it's medieval stories and GRRM really messed up his timeline is ok. Saying, let's apply a moral point here, statutory rape laws exist for a reason is also a fair point. But there seems to be this double standard in regards to Tyrion and LF.

Yes, your point is actually to defend Tyrion and LF and not to attack Harry. I would have guessed that well before reading this, but I guess you layed it out here. I think I've pointed how incorrect your math is numerous times...but here is the thing : Being upset that people think Littlefinger is a pedophile when he clearly is a pedophile..like a textbook pedophile..as written by the author to be acting in creepy controlling behaviors toward a chid...is a strange thing to be upset about. Being upset that people think Tyrion thinking Sansa is attractive when he is 26 (not 24) and she is 13 is also a strange thing to get upset about. Then...getting upset that Harrold (who is 19 at most) is attracted to Sansa (who is now 14 and pretending to be 15) is also strange, especially since this would be the similar to a senior in high school dating a freshman...something that most certainly happened in my school. I admit, it is obvious you a like aging some characters and not aging others...which does make it so you might legitimately be confused about the ages of these characters....but....the whole idea of this post...which was basically to be upset about people calling Tyrion and Littlefinger pedophiles...is a strange hill to die on. 

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8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, your point is actually to defend Tyrion and LF and not to attack Harry. I would have guessed that well before reading this, but I guess you layed it out here. I think I've pointed how incorrect your math is numerous times...but here is the thing : Being upset that people think Littlefinger is a pedophile when he clearly is a pedophile..like a textbook pedophile..as written by the author to be acting in creepy controlling behaviors toward a chid...is a strange thing to be upset about. Being upset that people think Tyrion thinking Sansa is attractive when he is 26 (not 24) and she is 13 is also a strange thing to get upset about. Then...getting upset that Harrold (who is 19 at most) is attracted to Sansa (who is now 14 and pretending to be 15) is also strange, especially since this would be the similar to a senior in high school dating a freshman...something that most certainly happened in my school. I admit, it is obvious you a like aging some characters and not aging others...which does make it so you might legitimately be confused about the ages of these characters....but....the whole idea of this post...which was basically to be upset about people calling Tyrion and Littlefinger pedophiles...is a strange hill to die on. 

The thing I'm upset about is Sansa's age making no sense what so ever in relation to how she looks or is treated. Tbf the same is the case with Bran so there's that.

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9 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

The thing I'm upset about is Sansa's age making no sense what so ever in relation to how she looks or is treated. Tbf the same is the case with Bran so there's that.

I want to add to my point actually. Let's pretend Sansa was 20. Period. Just let's pretend she was 20. Her interaction with Harry was clearly mutual. Her interaction with Littlefinger is clearly predatory. Sansa is uncomfortable/scared of Littlefinger. He treats her as an object/thing he can own. He manipulates her situation to force her to be with him and lies about things to control her. Tyrion, who again I don't see many railing on because he decided to go against what people wanted with her and treat her wishes with respect, was in an arranged marriage with her that she clearly didn't want. He was sexually interested in someone who had been treated as chattel by the Lannisters since they first interacted with her. She was essentially scared of what was going to happen. Do you remember the chapter? She was scared. Again, I am not treating Tyrion the same as Littlefinger here. He made good choices, and he was a victim in the situation with Sansa as well (although not nearly as much of a victim as Sansa was). However, comparing Littlefinger (a clearly predatory situation) to Harry (a clearly mutual situation) just doesn't make sense even if we take age out of it. 
As far as to what you are saying that people treat her differently than expected, that is because it is written as a different time period where it was okay to find that age attractive. It is true that through much of human history, that was the case. Fortunately, GRRM makes it very clear by making Sansa a point of view character, how she feels in those situations...so we don't have to be all that confused. Final words : Littlefinger is a predatory pedophile in literally any time period, and he should be treated that way more often in every forum if you ask me. 

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