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Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

Alyn Oakenfist

By Alyn Oakenfist,
in General (ASoIaF)

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zandru Council Member

zandru

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Posted
59 minutes ago, Daena the Defiant said:

At this point in the story, isn't Sansa closer to 16?

No, Sansa is 13 or at the oldest, 14. She's posing as a 15-16 yo. Also note, for those expressing the "yuck factor", that she has been dressed in frocks with very low bodices and snug fit, which she fills out prettily. She doesn't look or dress like what's considered "a child" iin Westeros. And we mustn't forget, this IS Westeros and not Iowa in the 21st century.**

This excuses Harry, who's being deceived on a couple of levels, but not that slimy weasel, Littlefinger. Tyrion doesn't even come into the picture. He knows her age, acts responsibly, and doesn't make her do anything she doesn't want to, in spite of earning the ridicule of the entire court and disapproval of his father.

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* I'm not sure why I'm picking on Iowa, but Iowans shouldn't take it personally.

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Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

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On 8/1/2020 at 3:34 AM, Orm said:

Well maybe because Sansa finds Harry attractive as well....... Unlike Tyrion and LF..... How old is harrold hardyng by the way?

Sansa is 13 to 14. Harold is 17 to 19. Tyrion 26 or 27. I’ve never called Tyrion a pedo myself. The age difference is creepy in to a modern day reader, but this sort of thing happened in the Middle Ages.

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Elegant Woes Landed Knight

Elegant Woes

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I don't know why on earth so many people assume Sansa is either fourteen or almost fourteen, when she only turned thirteen near the end of ASOS. Barely any time has passed during AFFC/ADWD. She will only turn fourteen half way or near end of TWOW and not earlier. Please stop aging her up. 

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Lollygag Council Member

Lollygag

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I've not read through all of this thread so sorry if I'm repeating.

Tyrion gets crap because he calls himself out on it. Over and over, he reminds himself that Sansa is still a child. This is a realistic aspect to the characters. Sometimes we're attracted to people we really shouldn't be and need to check ourselves. It's not just men, either. I've recently heard there's a bunch of middle-aged women who openly lust for Timothee Chalamet who is technically of age, but definitely doesn't look it.

LF knows she's a child mentally and emotionally at least, and uses this to his advantage to manipulate her knowing she can't defend herself against someone with more maturity and life experience. Also, she's his "daughter" and she has to call him father while he tries to make out with her.

TWOW spoilers

Spoiler

We see that Sansa and Harry, being closer in age, are also more on an equal playing field. He means to manipulate her, but she does so in turn. Likewise, Joff didn't get crap for wanting Sansa. Same thing. They're close in age, thus are on fairly equal footing in development. LF is exactly the reason why these age gaps are openings for manipulation, knowingly done or not. The younger they are, the more likely they'll be easier to control than women their own age.

 

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BlackLightning Council Member

BlackLightning

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On 8/1/2020 at 5:16 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So let's just agree that Sansa is one place where you can see just how fucked the timeline is on occasion, as Sansa at 13, having barely gotten her menstrual cycle, is considered to be sexually attractive. This is particularly obvious in the ball at the beginning of TWOW. So why is this double standard where a good part of this forum is screaming pedophile at Tyrion and Littlefinger (and remember Tyrion didn't do anything and had every political incentive to do it) while nobody even comments at Harrold and the Vale knights?

Tyrion and Littlefinger get shit on (and rightfully so)

But it's not so much about how they are attracted to Sansa. It's more about how they seek to exploit Sansa. In other words, Tyrion and Littlefinger are predatory and have some very dark and twisted personality traits.

Harrold Hardyng, however, has not crossed that threshold nor have any of the Vale knights. While they are attracted to Sansa and are expressing how attracted they are, there is none of the skeevy exploitation or the "woe is me, I want her to love me and come to me willingly so that I can feel good" that can be found in Tyrion or Littlefinger.

I also want to point out that the age of consent in Westeros is lower than that of the United States. 13-14 in Westeros is like 16 in the United States. It's still underaged but I think it's safe to say that a lot of people not only find physically mature 16 year olds attractive but that they have a hard time telling the difference between someone who is 16 and someone who is 18 or 19.

There is also an ongoing debate about how people in Westeros are probably older than their actual age.

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Orm Landed Knight

Orm

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11 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Women aren't always the victim - but you need a better example that this one.

So will you admit that Robert was Cersei's victim?.... Yes or No......

 

11 hours ago, zandru said:

Harry isn't being abandoned with a baby to take care of for the rest of his life, like the girls/women he had his fun with

No he isn't......  So, That's why he deserves to be a stalking horse?

 

11 hours ago, zandru said:

And Cersei, although horrible, doesn't deserve being battered or raped. Kin

A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse..... But still doesn't deserve the bad things happening to her......

You noticing a pattern here?

11 hours ago, zandru said:

King Robert isn't much good at "using his words", much less creativity or solutions other than killing, unfortunately

 Hmm.... I don't have time nor will to quote countless book events/statements..... So I'll just quote the Author, 'Robert is a good man in many ways, but he does not make a good king'

Its Martin's word against yours....

11 hours ago, zandru said:

 

 

11 hours ago, zandru said:

Cersei didn't need to be a hateful witch, if he'd been even a decent husband.

Lol... Stop trolling.... She was/is always a hateful witch.....

Robert tried to be a decent husband..... But Cersei is the one fucking him at every turn.....killed him by the end....

Maybe if she was a decent wife or just not a horrible hoe in general..... Then Robert didn't need to be an abusive drunkard and the sorry ass we meet at AGOT.....

11 hours ago, zandru said:

And assuming there's a bias that "women are always the victims" is vaguely misogynistic. It's true that women are more likely to be "the victim" due to

There are many biases indeed.....

 

11 hours ago, zandru said:
  • they are generally smaller  in size and less muscular
  • they're generally less trained or experienced in the fighting skills
  • they have this weird reproduction system where what's just "good fun" for the man can end them up with a dependent for life, and in Westeros, frequently dying in the process.

Yeah it sucks being female in westeros....  And it equally sucks to be a male too...... Just for different reasons.....

 

11 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, I guess I must be biased - or something.

Yes, of course you are..... I am too.....

It's just that I am insightful and open enough to admit to that myself and others.... 

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Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

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On 8/1/2020 at 3:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he's 19. Attracted to a 13 year old, yuck

He’s 19 at the absolute oldest and she’s 13 at the absolute youngest. Harry can also be 17 and Sansa can be 14. It really isn’t the same as Tyrion or LF, although this is a a Medieval setting and those things did happen at the time.

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Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

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8 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't know why on earth so many people assume Sansa is either fourteen or almost fourteen, when she only turned thirteen near the end of ASOS. Barely any time has passed during AFFC/ADWD. She will only turn fourteen half way or near end of TWOW and not earlier. Please stop aging her up. 

Isn’t it Winter? Westerosi seasons might be off, but Sansa was probably born near the end of the year in 286. It’s the winter of the year 300.

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Orm Landed Knight

Orm

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8 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Sansa is 13 to 14. Harold is 17 to 19. Tyrion 26 or 27. I’ve never called Tyrion a pedo myself. The age difference is creepy in to a modern day reader, but this sort of thing happened in the Middle Ages.

Yeah.... I never put it on Tyrion either.... But Sansa gave a description of Tyrion's man-hood and it made my stomach crawl for a bit... He still did grope her.... Ultimately it all comes down to how you look.....

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Lee-Sensei Council Member

Lee-Sensei

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Yeah.... I never put it on Tyrion either.... But Sansa gave a description of Tyrion's man-hood and it made my stomach crawl for a bit... He still did grope her.... Ultimately it all comes down to how you look.....

He did grope her and that’s gross, but part of her revulsion is that he’s physically grotesque. If it had been someone like Renly or Loras, she probably would have felt a different way. To be clear, I’m not blaming her. The whole situation was gross and she was being forced into a marriage by the people that had killed or were trying to kill her family.

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Bernie Mac Council Member

Bernie Mac

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Posted
15 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't know why on earth so many people assume Sansa is either fourteen or almost fourteen, when she only turned thirteen near the end of ASOS. Barely any time has passed during AFFC/ADWD. She will only turn fourteen half way or near end of TWOW and not earlier. Please stop aging her up. 

She does not meet Harry till the sample chapters of TWOW.

She is almost 13 when she married Tyrion.

"How old are you, Sansa?" asked Tyrion, after a moment.
"Thirteen," she said, "when the moon turns." - A Storm of Swords - Sansa III
 
It is not inconceivable she is 14 or soon to be 14 by the time she meets Harry. That 12 months has passed in that time.
 
The person she is pretending to be, however, is 14.
 
"How old are you, child?" asked Lady Waynwood.
"Four-fourteen, my lady." For a moment she forgot how old Alayne should be. "And I am no child, but a maiden flowered." - A Feast for Crows - Alayne I
 
Which means Alayne may well be seen as 15 when she finally meets Harry in TWOW. .
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Orm Landed Knight

Orm

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26 minutes ago, zandru said:

Yeah, and I don't think your mind is sufficiently open to continue this line. No matter how much you may claim it is.

Sure attack me now...... Just goes to show who is the "enlightened" one is......

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Lord of Raventree Hall Council Member

Lord of Raventree Hall

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Posted
On 8/3/2020 at 10:39 PM, Elegant Woes said:

@Lord of Raventree Hall Sansa is a thirteen year old acting like she's a year older. She will only turn fourteen by the end of TWOW and not earlier. 

This is based on? Evidence is good. I presented mine. ADwD was in 300. I have no reason to believe TWoW wouldn't advance to 301, considering ADwD ends in late August of 300. Sansa was born in 286. That means unless she can stop the passage of time, she is most likely 14 by the time that Harry the Heir interacts with her. Even if she is still 13...she is at most like 2 months away from being 14. Your evidence for her being 13 comes from AFFC II which was in May on 300. Yeah, I did my fucking research. So, you have no idea if she is 13 or 14 despite your confidence that she is 13. My confidence in that she is 14 is that the suggestion, in that chapter is that Sansa is indeed almost 14...and its been roughly 4 months since that happened. Robert Arryn's hair is longer. Time passed. Again though, you are splitting hairs over something that doesn't take away from my point, because you don't have anything to actually refute my points. 

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