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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

No, the problem that Westeros has with Tyrion is his birth. His name.

No, Cat's reaction to finding out that Tyrion, rather than Joffrey, is marrying her daughter is pretty clearly about him being a dwarf, a monstrous curse on the gods.

"Gone?" He looked startled. "Dead? Oh, Mother, no, not that, they haven't harmed her, not that way, only . . . a bird came last night, but I couldn't bring myself to tell you, not until your father was sent to his rest." Robb took her hand. "They married her to Tyrion Lannister."
Catelyn's fingers clutched at his. "The Imp."
There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.” Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. “I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa … why would anyone do this to her?
 
Sansa had been betrothed to Joffrey from the AGOT,  Cat was hugely in favor of it. Had she been made to marry Lancel there would not have been this reaction.
 
Tyrion's reputation in Westeros is mostly, though not entirely, built on ableism.
 
Quote

Lannisters have been at war with House Stark; not only that but they are deciding to marry the youngest son of House Lannister to the oldest daughter of House Stark in a scheme to destroy House Stark and seize control of Winterfell.

Yes and No. No to the destruction of House Stark, Sansa's heirs would more than likely be Starks in name.

But yes about control, which Cat is not that against. In the same chapter about her reaction to her daughters wedding she is once again asking Robb to sue for peace.

Quote

 

Not to mention that the younger Lannister son was accused of attempting to murder a boy of House Stark?

Yup. Do you think Cat would have been so ready to beleive that if Tyrion was not infamous in Westeros as a curse on his House?

She actually does not believe Tyrion was responsible for Bran by the time she hears he married Cat.

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It's not even about Tyrion's dwarfism or his Lannister name. Tyrion is a known lecher and drunk. 

So are most noble sons. The difference is Tyrion's height makes him stand out.

Her own brother, Edmure, seems to indulge with drink and whores as well.

Quote

There are very, very few people in the Seven Kingdoms who speak highly of Tyrion.

True. Do you not think his height played a part in that?

Tyrion had a huge part in saving the city, they still hated him, while they cheered Joffrey

Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King's Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders.

Even if that is in part because of who he was with, it is easier for someone who looks like Joffrey to be loved by the commons than it is Tyrion.

Quote

 

98% of series most informed and beloved characters don't have anything real good to say about Tyrion. Not even pre-arrest, pre-Wot5K in A Game of Thrones. People still talk about Ned Stark in a very positive light and he's been dead for years.

Again, a large part of that is down to being a dwarf

"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"

When Tyrion is born he is seen as a curse on his overreaching father.

"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been born to the King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."

 

The realm thinking him a curse from his birth clearly clouded how people saw him.

 

Quote

 

The only large group of people that loves Tyrion is the fandom. No wonder as he consistently and easily has some of the best and most informative chapters in the entire series. But even that number seems to be dwindling and the ones that still really like him are actually more enamored with Peter Dinklage.

Tyrion is not a good person.

I agree with that. Tyrion is not a good person and Dinklage brought Tyrion to life. The show may have had its faults, but the casting was exemplary.

But while I agree Tyrion was not a good person, that is not why he was despised around the realm. Him being a dwarf was. Had he been born looking like Jaime, Lancel or Joffrey he'd not have been hated (even if he deserved to be)

Edited by Bernie Mac

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes and No. No to the destruction of House Stark, Sansa's heirs would more than likely be Starks in name.

I am a bit confused with this statement.... Ofc Sansa's non-existent children have legitimate claim to the north.... Especially if her brothers are all dead and without issue...

But either they will be Starks or Lannisters or insert-name is entirely dependent on the power which controls her, no?...... And when she was married to Tyrion she was under the thumb of the Lannisters...... So I assume Tywin's plan(stupid cause her brothers are alive) was to install a Lannister as the lord paramount of the north,right?

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On 8/7/2020 at 4:48 AM, Orm said:

The Targ incest and marriages are worse than  Tyrion/Sansa  and some of them are even worse than LF/Sansa for my taste....

I see....

Seeing as the vast majority of the Targ incest marriages don't revolve kidnapping, imprisonment of innocent children, power grabs, murder and the grooming process, you just told on yourself.

Thank you very much.

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On 8/7/2020 at 6:03 AM, Bernie Mac said:

No, Cat's reaction to finding out that Tyrion, rather than Joffrey, is marrying her daughter is pretty clearly about him being a dwarf, a monstrous curse on the gods.

"Gone?" He looked startled. "Dead? Oh, Mother, no, not that, they haven't harmed her, not that way, only . . . a bird came last night, but I couldn't bring myself to tell you, not until your father was sent to his rest." Robb took her hand. "They married her to Tyrion Lannister."
Catelyn's fingers clutched at his. "The Imp."
There’s no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.” Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. “I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa … why would anyone do this to her?
 
Sansa had been betrothed to Joffrey from the AGOT,  Cat was hugely in favor of it. Had she been made to marry Lancel there would not have been this reaction.
 
Tyrion's reputation in Westeros is mostly, though not entirely, built on ableism.
 

Yes and No. No to the destruction of House Stark, Sansa's heirs would more than likely be Starks in name.

But yes about control, which Cat is not that against. In the same chapter about her reaction to her daughters wedding she is once again asking Robb to sue for peace.

Yup. Do you think Cat would have been so ready to beleive that if Tyrion was not infamous in Westeros as a curse on his House?

She actually does not believe Tyrion was responsible for Bran by the time she hears he married Cat.

So are most noble sons. The difference is Tyrion's height makes him stand out.

Her own brother, Edmure, seems to indulge with drink and whores as well.

True. Do you not think his height played a part in that?

Tyrion had a huge part in saving the city, they still hated him, while they cheered Joffrey

Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King's Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders.

Even if that is in part because of who he was with, it is easier for someone who looks like Joffrey to be loved by the commons than it is Tyrion.

Again, a large part of that is down to being a dwarf

"At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?"

When Tyrion is born he is seen as a curse on his overreaching father.

"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been born to the King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."

 

The realm thinking him a curse from his birth clearly clouded how people saw him.

 

I agree with that. Tyrion is not a good person and Dinklage brought Tyrion to life. The show may have had its faults, but the casting was exemplary.

But while I agree Tyrion was not a good person, that is not why he was despised around the realm. Him being a dwarf was. Had he been born looking like Jaime, Lancel or Joffrey he'd not have been hated (even if he deserved to be)

Jaime and Joffrey are both hated throughout the realm. However, despite the very valid reasons as to why they are hated, they are still either respected or acknowledged well enough.

Tyrion, despite all his feats in A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings, is not well regarded by anyone in A Storm of Swords. Yes, I know Cersei and Tywin (mainly Cersei) had something to do with it but it was not entirely undeserved.

Who will threaten their own flesh and blood (not only that but the very heir to their house who also happens to be a child) on account of a prostitue? Like the game that Tyrion played with Tommen's life towards in the end of Clash was just so very wrong. Not only was it wrong, it was also very unnecessary and very dangerous. You think people wouldn't hear about that.

One of the major themes of Tyrion's story arc appears to be about is how a society's negative perceptions, biases and notions about an individual can be confirmed by both that individual's infallible nature (not a problem) and that individual's obsession to fight those perceptions and biases head-on (a problem).

I'm not discounting the ableism. But ableism isn't the only issue people have with Tyrion.

It's similar to racism. You know how people are quick to write off an issue that someone has with another person of a different race or ethnicity as racism? Sometimes, oftentimes, however-many-times, racism has nothing to do with it. No one is saying that racism is never the root of any interpersonal or inter-societal issue or that it can't be part of an interpersonal or inter-societal issue. But sometimes, it's just not that deep. A person can just not like another person because of the fact that they are crude or always late or unambitious or have poor hygiene.

Catelyn would've had a similar reaction if Sansa was forcibly married to Jaime Lannister or anyone with whom that she had the displeasure of encountering and dealing.

Edmure does drink but not to the excess that Tyrion does. Nor does he whore to the excess that Tyrion does. Plus, Edmure genuinely demonstrates his love for the smallfolk of the area surrounding Riverrun and those smallfolk are eager to return his love. Tyrion does not have that redeeming quality.

Robert Baratheon is a better comparison to Tyrion but Robert is fondly regarded chiefly because he was charismatic (even up until his death) and had the ability to turn known enemies into allies and friends--or at least into docile, indifferent parties. Not to say that Robert's battlefield prowess doesn't factor into it but the main reason why people like Robert and consider Renly to be more of his brother than Stannis is because of Robert's charisma. Tyrion does not have that kind of charisma.

Tyrion (and many readers who have fallen head over heels into his POV) does not realize how arrogant, mean and entitled that he is. Granted, the only ones who are bold enough to directly tell him the truth about himself are either just as twisted as he is or more twisted than he is -- i.e. Cersei, Tywin, etc. -- but it is what it is. Nobody really likes or respects Tyrion (that's the keyword: respect!) and the people who did like and respect Tyrion are no longer too fond of him. The only one who probably still respects Tyrion is Bronn and Gemma Lannister. And Gemma Lannister told the truth of the matter that Tyrion is the next generation's iteration Tywin and no one really liked Tywin Lannister. However, they did respect and fear him. Tyrion doesn't even have the respect.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Seeing as the vast majority of the Targ incest marriages don't revolve kidnapping, imprisonment of innocent children, power grabs, murder and the grooming process, you just told on yourself

Yes, but Targ incest marriages involve harmful eugenics, blood elitism, grooming, wars, exceptionalism, brain-washing, limited gene-pool and most of all the blatant incest and madness that follows. So I do think they are more troublesome than the troublesome marital relationships in question in this thread....

George puts emphasis on the negativity, destructiveness and narrowness of it.......

But you and the majority of fans don't seem to catch on to it...... Tells a lot, you know.... But then again the incest and the tittilation is what made the show and by extension the books popular....:D

Edited by Orm
Sentence construction

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1 minute ago, Orm said:

Yes, but Targ incest marriages involve harmful eugenics, blood elitism, grooming, wars, exceptionalism, brain-washing, limited gene-pool and most of all the blatant incest and madness that follows I do think they are more troublesome than the troublesome marital relationships in question in this thread....

George puts emphasis on the negativity, destructiveness and narrowness of it.......

But you and the majority of fans don't seem to catch on to it...... Tells a lot, you know.... But then again the incest and the tittilation is what made the show and by extension the books popular....:D

But if the people of Planetos don't have the scientific knowledge required to know about the importance of genetic health and diversification, then how can you blame them for harmful eugenics?

That's like blaming a 6-year-old for bank fraud when the 6-year-old doesn't even fully understand the concept of banking.

No one is saying that the Targaryen incest marriages are good. They make sense but they are not good. We know that GRRM emphasizes the harmful effects of it.

 

What is all of this with blood elitism and wars? Wars have absolutely nothing to do with Targaryen incest marriages. Period. it's a natural and unfortunate part of the world. Blood elitism and exceptionalism? You're deflecting once again. This is a story about dynasties and bloodlines. Of course there's going to be elitism and exceptionalism here. There's a bunch of elitism in the real world and not all of it is based on blood. Have you heard of American exceptionalism?

I'm not going to get too deep in that but even that's pushing it because not all exceptionalism is wrong. Some is actually necessary.

The grooming? Brainwashing? Meh. You're okay with Littlefinger and Tyrion attempts to groom and brainwashing Sansa so why should the Targaryen grooming bother you?

All arranged marriages -- especially those pertaining to children -- have some sort of grooming involved. It's not necessarily pedophilic grooming (aka the type of grooming Littlefinger and Tyrion indulge in) but yes...there's a preparation process.

 

There is a very big, very clear difference in between:

  • arranged Targaryen marriages between brother and sister--or should I say Valyrian marriages because they have more to do with the culture of Valyria
  • Tyrion marrying his father's prisoner and trying to seduce her so that he can feel loved and be powerful
  • Littlefinger playing the role of pedophilic father to his creation, the political masterpiece Catelyn 2.0

Like....what? Isn't it obvious?

The thread has nothing to do with Targaryens.

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9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The grooming? Brainwashing? Meh. You're okay with Littlefinger and Tyrion attempts to groom and brainwashing Sansa so why should the Targaryen grooming bother you?

Your testing my patience dude.....

"Tyrion and LF lusting over Sansa is okay"- Orm 2020

Post the post where I have remotely implicated it.....Or apologize.....

13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But if the people of Planetos don't have the scientific knowledge required to know about the importance of genetic health and diversification, then how can you blame them for harmful eugenics?

"When a Targaryen is born, it's either madness or greatness"

If the majority of normal good Targs are half-targs then mad inbred ones, I think we should give them more agency than 6 year olds for being bank frauds.....

17 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

No one is saying that the Targaryen incest marriages are good. They make sense but they are not good. We know that GRRM emphasizes the harmful effects of it.

LF and Tyrion wanting to marry Sansa makes sense to them and their friends...

..... Moral relativism......

21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Like....what? Isn't it obvious?

It is.... But we know the specifics.... The ASOIAF world doesn't.....

 

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

The thread has nothing to do with Targaryens.

I haven't mentioned Targaryens till that post of approval to R2D.....

And I don't know what your argument with me is? Go read my very first post in this thread......

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On 8/5/2020 at 11:17 AM, sweetsunray said:

Sansa's name day is estimated to be around 3/4th of the year (our fall time: September or October). She was 11 at the start of aGoT, and 12 around the time of the Hand's tourney and her father's execution. So, she's 12 from the second half of aGoT, throughout aCoK, and most of aSoS.

 
 
Tyrion married Sansa when she was 12, but nearly 13. Sansa's wedding night with Tyrion is while she's still 12.
 
 
 
Sansa is still 13 at the end of aFfC, pretending Alayne is 14, when she goes down the mountain. aDwD is in 301 AC, but does by estimation not go beyond august of 301 AC. The 3-4 months of time furthering in aDwD beyond aFfC's end, is not enough for Sansa to be 14 and Alayne to be 15, and yet allows for enough time to organize the tourney.
 
So, Sansa is 13 close to going 14, when she meets Harry, and he believes she's 14 going on 15. He himself is 18. He was knighted when he was 18 at a tourney that Royce staged after the meeting with Littlefinger as Lord Declarant. Harry would still be 18 imo.

If it is 301, Sansa is 14. She was born in 286 according to the wiki, which I trust more than you. If 301 has begun, Sansa is absolutely 14. Time passed from the end of ADwD and when Sansa is still 13 and the Sansa's chapter in TWoW where she meets Harry. Sje could be 14 as we have no freaking clue how much time has passed. My feeling, which she was only a few months from 14 in ADwD makes me think she is more likely to be 14 fhan 13 in ADwD, however NEITHER OF US can prove this, so just argue my points instead of this stupid age argument. 

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Posted (edited)

I would like to remind everyone that ADWD ends Midway August in the year 300. Sansa turned thirteen a month before the new year (300). Meaning her birthday is at late November or early December. We don't know at what pace TWOW is going but if I am going to guess it will be roughly six months, just like the first three books. That means it's nowhere near Sansa's birthday. More importantly we have to keep in mind that several TWOW chapters will be in the same time span of the late ADWD chapters and that includes Sansa's very first chapter that GRRM gave to us. The very one that originally was supposed to be in ADWD but was eventually pushed towards TWOW. This means Sansa won't turn 14 until late TWOW and not earlier. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Besides the age difference, part of the reason that Sansa being with Tyrion and Littlefinger comes across as worse, is that she’s actually repulsed by them. Tyrion, because of his physical features and LF, because he’s just creepy (she mentions feeling lik he undresses her with his eyes in AGOT, when she was around 12).

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

If it is 301, Sansa is 14. She was born in 286 according to the wiki, which I trust more than you. If 301 has begun, Sansa is absolutely 14. Time passed from the end of ADwD and when Sansa is still 13 and the Sansa's chapter in TWoW where she meets Harry. Sje could be 14 as we have no freaking clue how much time has passed. My feeling, which she was only a few months from 14 in ADwD makes me think she is more likely to be 14 fhan 13 in ADwD, however NEITHER OF US can prove this, so just argue my points instead of this stupid age argument. 

 

2 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I would like to remind everyone that ADWD ends Midway August in the year 300. Sansa turned thirteen a month before the new year (300). Meaning her birthday is at late November or early December. We don't know at what pace TWOW is going but if I am going to guess it will be roughly six months, just like the first three books. That means it's nowhere near Sansa's birthday. More importantly we have to keep in mind that several TWOW chapters will be in the same time span of the late ADWD chapters and that includes Sansa's very first chapter that GRRM gave to us. The very one that originally was supposed to be in ADWD but was eventually pushed towards TWOW. This means Sansa won't turn 14 until late TWOW and not earlier. 

My bad. My post should have said august 300, instead of 301.

She is most definitely not 14 yet. You don't have to take my word for it, Lord of Raventree Hall. The book quotes point this out.

Edited by sweetsunray

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

My bad. My post should have said august 300, instead of 301.

She is most definitely not 14 yet. You don't have to take my word for it, Lord of Raventree Hall. The book quotes point this out.

No they don't. You don't know. When she meets Harry, time has passed. Your quotes come from an earlier point. They are sample chapters. We don't even know what order they will happen chronologically. We have no freaking clue. No. Your quotes did not prove your point. It'd be like if I wrote a history paper and assumed the situations and then said, but I'm right because this thing happened (for certain) months before this other thing, so maybe this hadn't happened even though I have no proof that the thing happened. That is horrible logic. You might be right. I might be right. Neither of us can prove our point. Stop. THAT ISN'T THE POINT OF THE DISCUSSION. YOU ARE WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME. 

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It had been confirmed that Sansa's TWOW chapter was originally meant for ADWD but GRRM decided to move it because a new storyline begins for Sansa in that chapter. That alone tells us that Sansa's chapter is in the beginning of TWOW. 

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On 8/5/2020 at 4:08 AM, Springwatch said:

Sansa being 20 is a false position; it can never prove anything for 13yo Sansa. You can't take away the age gap, even with Harry. It means there is an imbalance of power. This is how it's taken to be in real life.

There is a much simpler argument that has already been made: Sansa looks older than her true age (a '"bosom as lovely as the queen's, you should not hide it so"). (Thanks, @zandru - argument here.)

So stop saying her interactions with Harry are mutual - it's not even likely she would feel like that. She was ordered to flirt with him. Before that, he had her in tears - he was that brutally rude. Do you think she's forgotten that? And the girl he ditched, with her baby? And the second girl and her baby, that he will ditch next? Where's the courtesy, the gallantry, that she values so much? Nowhere.

You don't need to answer for me. I have never said Harry is a sexual predator (to Sansa, at least). She appears attracted, and he's entitled to take that at face value.

He does have a duty of care to her, because he's older and has the power to hurt her (she could end up with a 'soiled' reputation, like Lysa). If they marry, he will be her lord, and she will be his filly to ride, and breed, and cast away in time. (Thanks, Cersei.)

No bad faith, we're just talking at cross purposes. You can have the last word if you want.

I never said her interactions with Harry were mutual. I said they were mutual from his perspective. That's it. That is the discussion we are having. The question was : Why doesn't Harry get crap, and Tyrion and Petryr Baelish do? Not, how does Sansa feel about all this? I responded to the actual question, then you made a false straw man argument so you could make a point unrelated to what I actually say. Stop misrepresenting my words. If you think there is an inbalance in power between Harry and Sansa, so be it. That wasn't ever my point here. You are responding to some imagined version of me, not the actual version of me and the things I actually said and thought. Do I think in real life a 18 year old dating a 13 (or 14, still hasn't been proved her age, won't give this up. You guys are acting on the lack of evidence of the contrary and don't actually have proof of your point. You are acting like you are defense lawyers, and the burden of proof only falls on the prosecution. Well, your not defense lawyers, neither of us can prove it either way. Call this a draw for god's sake) year old would be creepy? Yes. Do I think it is the same as a 27 year old dating a 13 year old? No. If I saw a freshman in high school dating a senior, I would not report it to the police. If I saw a 27 year old dating a freshman in high school, I'd report it to the police. The question, you know the one we are actually responding to, is why is it different? Because I've seen freshman date seniors. In fact, I knew girls in high school who dated college aged kids. I did think it was creepy. But when there was a teacher dating a freshman in high school? It is just different. Period. That is my moralistic code, so you can't tell me I'm wrong. Also, IF SOMEONE WHO WAS OLD ENOUGH TO BE THERE FATHER was unwantingly touching and sexually desiring a 12 year old? Obviously so different that they aren't even in the same ballpark. That was my point here. Petyr gets more crap because he is clearly a predator, while as Harry isn't even interested in Sansa when she originally approaches him if I remember right. Petyr is literally the criminal in the situation between Harry and Sansa as well, coercing a minor to try to seduce another person? Are you kidding me? My whole point here was to point out Harry's situation was mostly benign. No matter what, he thought he had a 4 year age gap (even if you are right) and that a person was coming onto him. Petyr was a creepy old man who wants to have sex with a 12 year old because he looks like her mother who he couldn't have because he considers women objects. Here, I'll do what you are doing, strawman argument : So you are saying you think they are the same? Wow, they are obviously not the same. That is your argument right? Since you totally actually said those words and I'm not just making up your argument right now? (all of this in italics was sarcasm)

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

It had been confirmed that Sansa's TWOW chapter was originally meant for ADWD but GRRM decided to move it because a new storyline begins for Sansa in that chapter. That alone tells us that Sansa's chapter is in the beginning of TWOW. 

This is why I stop coming to these forums. If I had interest in listening to anal arguments over things that we aren't actually discussing, I'd go back to live with my father. WHO CARES? This is the last time I'm responding to the age question. I'm also going to go on believing she is 14. I also don't actually give a crap whether she is 13 and 10 months or 14. Good. Good. Move on. That ...like two months of age gaps drastically change anyone arguments here? I doubt it. Certainly not mine. 

Edited by Lord of Raventree Hall

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@Lord of Raventree Hall Believe it or not I actually largely agree with on the issue of Sansa and Harry vs Sansa and Petyr. And technically there's minimal change between a 13 and 14 year old. I am only stating facts when I say 'Sansa is 13 not 14'. I am not putting some morality on it. That's all. 

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15 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lord of Raventree Hall Believe it or not I actually largely agree with on the issue of Sansa and Harry vs Sansa and Petyr. And technically there's minimal change between a 13 and 14 year old. I am only stating facts when I say 'Sansa is 13 not 14'. I am not putting some morality on it. That's all. 

Well thank you for saying this. Take away some of my irritation from before, we cool. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lord of Raventree Hall Believe it or not I actually largely agree with on the issue of Sansa and Harry vs Sansa and Petyr. And technically there's minimal change between a 13 and 14 year old. I am only stating facts when I say 'Sansa is 13 not 14'. I am not putting some morality on it. That's all. 

Seconded. I don't have much of an issue with HtH being set up as a fiancé for Sansa age wise, or him lusting for her (even though he's a total jock when it comes to his treatment of women). He at the most differs but 5 years with Sansa, which in my country would be legal sexual consent between teens. He reads like a 16 year old at best, in contrast to Jon who thinks more like an 18 year old. And he believes Sansa to be Alayne who claims to be a year older than she actually is and looks it too. 

Petyr is an awful human being, who professes to love people but absolutely willing to destroy them and their family for petty narcissistic injuries, using them as tools and grooming a kid he got to know way before her first moon time even and wanted her even then. Yuck! My grievances with Tyrion are of an entirely different nature.

@Lord of Raventree Hall Pity you prefer "I can make her the age whatever I want" over this factual bit, which you yourself claim to find not all that important, and nearly have a tantrum when another poster shows where we ought to see the tWoW peek chapter timeline wise. Everybody can make a mistake. It doesn't make you any less of a poster.

Edited by sweetsunray

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6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Seconded. I don't have much of an issue with HtH being set up as a fiancé for Sansa age wise, or him lusting for her (even though he's a total jock when it comes to his treatment of women). He at the most differs but 5 years with Sansa, which in my country would be legal sexual consent between teens. He reads like a 16 year old at best, in contrast to Jon who thinks more like an 18 year old. And he believes Sansa to be Alayne who claims to be a year older than she actually is and looks it too. 

Petyr is an awful human being, who professes to love people but absolutely willing to destroy them and their family for petty narcissistic injuries, using them as tools and grooming a kid he got to know way before her first moon time even and wanted her even then. Yuck! My grievances with Tyrion are of an entirely different nature.

@Lord of Raventree Hall Pity you prefer "I can make her the age whatever I want" over this factual bit, which you yourself claim to find not all that important, and nearly have a tantrum when another poster shows where we ought to see the tWoW peek chapter timeline wise. Everybody can make a mistake. It doesn't make you any less of a poster.

The absence of proof is not proof. To the rest, I agree. I am glad to actially engage with you on the topic at hand.  If your grievences with Tyrion happen to be that he raped a slave, then i agree with them. 

I did not make her whatever age I wanted, I assumed based on the fact she was almost 14 and time had passed. You are making assumptions and I am making assumptions, just different assumptions. If you are absolutely correct about thr timeline, then she is 13...but considering some chapters in ACoK take place after chapters in ASoS (and this goes for every book) I don't think your proof is proof. Nor has GRRM probably even finalized that chapter. I assumed she was 14, you assumed she was 13. Saying someone is throwing a fit because they are not agreeing with is childish at best. People can disagree with you. You aren't a King who's word and logic is law. You did not prove Sansa is 13, you proved that (if your logic is correct which is not a garuntee) she probably is 13. I actually don't care if she is almost 14 or 14 as my point has nothing to do with whether she is 13 or 14. I assumed she was 14 based on her almost being 14 and my assumption that time had passed, which none of your comments proved wrong (time did pass, we just dont know how much time). If TWoW comes out and she a birthday in the second chapter, i will gladly concede I was wrong. Now, I don't need too, because you have not proven i am wrong, and again i am not choosing to "age her as I want". I made an assumption and I am sticking to that assumption because nothing you have said convinces me othersise, and if she is still 13, she is so close to 14 it barely matters. The way you talk is condescending dude. Stop. Suggestion, if you want pleasant discussion, use a different tone. What I don't like most is someone making different assumptions (that could be wrong) and actingn like there assumptions are law (when I freely admitted my assumptions could be wrong). If you can pull up a sectionof the chapter where Sansa says, "I an still 13." then I will gladly admit you are right. You can't though. You are assuming. You aren't presenting facts, so don't talk like you are. I was a Biology undegraduate and am currently starting a Graduate degree in Ecology. If there is one thing they force us to remember over and over, it is that it is important to distinguish between "fact" and "assumption". If I am observing magpie, and that magpie's tree has a lot of berries disappear, but I did not watch the magpie eat te berries, i can write that my assumption is the magpie ate tr berries, but I cannot present it as fact. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 2:03 PM, Orm said:

So will you admit that Robert was Cersei's victim?.... Yes or No......

 

A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse..... But still doesn't deserve the bad things happening to her......

You noticing a pattern here?

 Hmm.... I don't have time nor will to quote countless book events/statements..... So I'll just quote the Author, 'Robert is a good man in many ways, but he does not make a good king'

Its Martin's word against yours....

 

Lol... Stop trolling.... She was/is always a hateful witch.....

Robert tried to be a decent husband..... But Cersei is the one fucking him at every turn.....killed him by the end....

Maybe if she was a decent wife or just not a horrible hoe in general..... Then Robert didn't need to be an abusive drunkard and the sorry ass we meet at AGOT.....

There are many biases indeed.....

 

Yeah it sucks being female in westeros....  And it equally sucks to be a male too...... Just for different reasons.....

Woah, didn't realize this conversation entered this topic. So many things to break down here : 1. Robert and Cersei both do bad things to each other. Let's start small, according to Cersei's own PoV, Robert raped her. On a regular basis. He also called her Lyanna on their first night together. Now, lets continue on, Robert actually had the power, he was just so lazy he didn't use it. He could have presumably shipped Cersei off to Casterly Rock. He could have stopped surrounding himself with Lannisters left and right. But he was so lazy that he would rather just let Cersei do whatever. Robert is a victim of when Cersei murders him, that part is true. However, Cersei is the victim when she is raped. Cersei is the victim when Robert cheats on her...incessantly. What, cause Cersei sleeps with Jaime (and Robert doesn't know about it), that somehow...excuses the fact that he is literally constantly sleeps with other women? If Cersei didn't sleep with Jaime, would he have been different? (no, he wouldn't). Listen, if Lyanna had actually married Robert, let me tell you something : She would have been miserable. She says as much to Eddard. Robert was a shitty, shitty, awful, shitty, horrible husband; and he would have been a horrible husband to literally anyone he married. You know what doesn't make good husbands : Laziness. Drinking in large quantities. Having sex with random women in large quantities. 2. Cersei is not a horrible monster with no redeeming qualities. I do not like her. I think she is a deeply selfish person, but...GRRM is not writing a story with non-nuanced characters (except maybe Ramsay). She loves her children. That is a redeeming quality. Later you talk about her always being a hateful witch, there is no suggestion from anyone's perspective that there wasn't a time Cersei tried to be kind to Robert. Maybe there was. Maybe being raped is fairly good reason to hate someone and wish there death. I've been raped. I hate the person who raped me. That is for sure. 3. Robert never tried to be a decent husband. "She was always a hateful witch" - No proof. "Robert tried to be a decent husband" - Suggestion in Cersei's chapter that he called her Lyanna while overdrinking, and raped her regularly at the beginning of their marriage does not suggest an attempt at being a good husband. It suggests he was a lazy shitty husband from the word go. 4. Ah yes, some sexist language. Calling Robert, the most whorish character in the whole series a "good man" while calling Cersei a "horrible hoe" really says a lot about your argument I guess. 5. "Yeah it sucks being female in westeros....  And it equally sucks to be a male too...... Just for different reasons....." - No. It does not equally suck to be a man. Like...I find people who try to use this logic (it sucks jsut as much to be a man as a woman) in real life to be delusional, but in Westeros? Sansa was forcibly married to someone she didn't like. Petyr Baelish (who is of MUCH lower birth than Sansa) is allowed to creep on her. There is 0 punishment for him creeping on her. The power inbalance is clear. Women are used as objects throughout the series by male characters (usually not our PoV's thankfully). Shae is treated by an object by Tyrion throughout there storyline together. He claims he loves her, and then doesn't actually listen to word she says and basically traps her in a situation that it is very clear she no longer wants to be in (but has no real avenue for escape) by the end of their "relationship". Women are regurely raped after battles. Men are not. Men hold the power in this society in practically every way. Like, I don't know what to tell you Orm, but if you actually think that....I think you need take a women's study class or something, because you are blind to the reality of the situations that you are reading. 

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