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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You are basically saying your okay with Robert being a rapist, as long as he only rapes bad people. This means, no matter what, you are somewhat okay with rape. That is bad. You know how I said rape was bad over and over. It is because you clearly don't understand how bad it is. Raping people is bad. Raping bad people is bad. Raping good people bad. Raping people is bad. People who rape other people are bad. Period. Not, but..if the person is bad. Not, but if this, or but if that. Raping people is bad all the time no matter what. There is no case with rape like murder. For example, murdering someone to protect yourself (as you know they planned to murder you) You don't rape people to prevent other bad things. Rape is just bad, no matter what, in ever single case of it happening. 

I am saying I have no sympathy for Cersei if she is forced by her husband in a setting where she is expected to sleep with her husband as it is in  literal contract.....

I really don't....... You take it as if I am okay with rape..... Not cool man......

But By your higher than thou attitude I take, it is wrong of someone to kill Ramsay brutally or otherwise, right?

Edited by Orm
Punctuation

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4 minutes ago, Orm said:

I am saying I have no sympathy for Cersei if she is forced by her husband in a setting where she is expected to sleep with her husband as it is in  literal contract.....

I really don't....... You take it as if I am okay with rape..... Not cool man......

But By your higher than thou attitude I take, it is wrong of someone to kill Ramsay brutally or otherwise, right?

I'm with Lord of Raventree here, and your last argument is a twisting of his argument. Killing someone, premeditated, to protect people from being harmed is a defendable act. No woman, no man, no child is safe around Ramsay, not ever, period.

Raping someone does not prevent anyone else from being harmed. And whatever time period this is, most people do have a sense of morality and would even recoil from marital rape. Even if it technically does not exist by law. Robert pretends to have a black out from drinking whenever he sought Cersei's bed, exactly because he knows he's doing wrong. Ned who has a lot of reasons to hate Cersei thinks it's wrong for Robert to act as he does to Cersei.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Raping someone does not prevent anyone else from being harmed. And whatever time period this is, most people do have a sense of morality and would even recoil from marital rape. Even if it technically does not exist by law. Robert pretends to have a black out from drinking whenever he sought Cersei's bed, exactly because he knows he's doing wrong. Ned who has a lot of reasons to hate Cersei thinks it's wrong for Robert to act as he does to Cersei.

So, Robert killing Cersei would be okay ?

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm with Lord of Raventree here, and your last argument is a twisting of his argument. Killing someone, premeditated, to protect people from being harmed is a defendable act. No woman, no man,

He took what I said out of proportion,context and grinding it at me as if  I am okay with rape and even brutalisation... I've read the books.... Certainly not as much as you guys do but I am certain Cersei wasn't brutalised....

So I think I have the right to twist his/her words somewhat as well.......

Edited by Orm
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No, that reason is sexism. Just like it is in the modern day. Sexism is the reason you are looking for. 

You can call it that if you want, but paternity fraud is evil and they don’t have a foolproof way to test these things in Westeros.

 

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm with Lord of Raventree here, and your last argument is a twisting of his argument. Killing someone, premeditated, to protect people from being harmed is a defendable act. No woman, no man, no child is safe around Ramsay, not ever, period.

Raping someone does not prevent anyone else from being harmed. And whatever time period this is, most people do have a sense of morality and would even recoil from marital rape. Even if it technically does not exist by law. Robert pretends to have a black out from drinking whenever he sought Cersei's bed, exactly because he knows he's doing wrong. Ned who has a lot of reasons to hate Cersei thinks it's wrong for Robert to act as he does to Cersei.

He pretends to be drunk or was he actually drunk. Most likely, Cersei gave grudging consent. She was probably just trying to get over it, when Robert claimed his rights. She never calls it rape, but she does mention that she had to put up with his drunken groping (along with Stannis’ teeth grinding, Renly’s japes etc.). It is interesting that Jaime, Barristan and Arys Oakheart never mention it. I can’t imagine that Jaime would stand by and allow Robert to do that to a Cersei for 15 years.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Orm said:

So, Robert killing Cersei would be okay ?

Insofar he knows, not yet. But yeah, he could judge her for the murder of her friend as a child, for allegedly killing his twin bastards in Lannisport, etc. He doesn't know any of these things, so he cannot kill her. But I'm certainly fine with anyone killing Cersei after she had all the presumed bastards murdered, and her actions in aFfC, preferably in due course of a process.

Quote

So I think I have the right to twist his/her words somewhat as well.......

That might satisfy your feelings, but doesn't make your arguments any better.

Edited by sweetsunray

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4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Insofar he knows, not yet. But yeah, he could judge her for the murder of her friend as a child, for allegedly killing his twin bastards in Lannisport, etc. He doesn't know any of these things, so he cannot kill her. But I'm certainly fine with anyone killing Cersei after she had all the presumed bastards murdered, and her actions in aFfC, preferably in due course of a process.

I am seriously not gonna judge for actions of fictional characters in a fictional universe.......

But I know what I feel about each of those characters.... Rob,Tyrion, jaime etc manage to get my sympathy over all..... Cersei doesn't.....

Lord of Raventree hall has issues against forced sex.... Sure he/she can.... Its a real issue.... But he seems to expect me to agree that it's as close to murder and emotional abuse..... Because of her/his personal issues....

He's entitled to do so....

And I am entitled to reject it so..... What Cersei did to Robert is worse than what he did to her.... Period....

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22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That might satisfy your feelings, but doesn't make your arguments any better.

His/her arguments are coming from feelings/experience aswell. it's not like he has anything to base it on but Cersei's convulated consciousness.... That she is suffering her husband( who doesn't even consider herself a victim)..... Its not as if we saw Robert brutalising Cersei and I am saying it's okay....

But as I said he started putting words on my mouth........

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9 minutes ago, Orm said:

I am seriously not gonna judge for actions of fictional characters in a fictional universe.......

But I know what I feel about each of those characters.... Rob,Tyrion, jaime etc manage to get my sympathy over all..... Cersei doesn't.....

Lord of Raventree hall has issues against forced sex.... Sure he/she can.... Its a real issue.... But he seems to expect me to agree that it's as close to murder and emotional abuse..... Because of her/his personal issues....

He's entitled to do so....

And I am entitled to reject it so..... What Cersei did to Robert is worse than what he did to her.... Period....

There's no reason to make it into personal issues.

I loathe Tyrion and have little to no sympathy for him. In some respects I consider him to be worse than some of the monstrous people, because he actually has the intelligence and the potential for empathy, except when it comes to women, and aiding and abetting with people he despises morally himself.

How is what Cersei did to Robert before murdering him worse? Is it worse that she had an affair, while he had them too? Is it worse she birthed bastards, while he had more bastards than her? And it's not something she made him do. He was fighting a war and killed Rhaegar in part for his love of Lyanna, but fucked every whore in the Peach while Joncon besieged the town and begot Gendry on a tavern wench while Ned went looking for Lyanna. That man was never much husband material. He's right when he says he should just have gone to Essos and be a sellsword for a company to fight, drink and wench himself to death.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Since we're going by personal credentials - master industrial design, extra studies in physics, math teacher for adults wanting a HS degree in math/sciences.

Facts and logic and a timeline project ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8 ) to make an educated guess.

The facts:

  • Sansa is 13 in her last chapter of aFfC (Alayne 2).
  • aDwD Jon 2 synchs with aFfC Sam 1 (Sam, Gilly and maester Aemon leave for Eastwatch)

Timeline estimation:

  • Alayne 2 occurs around half May of the year 300 AC. References in the chapter: Riverrun has yielded, Stannis still holds Dragonstone (that is the news of Loras Tyrell's capture of Dragonstone is not yet known, either because it hasn't happened yet, the news hasn't reached the Vale yet, or the theory that Loras Tyrell sailed for Oldtown and is duping Cersei is correct).
  • aDwD Jon 1 and Jon 2 are estimated to occur in the second half of February 300 AC, after aFfC Sansa 1 (where Nestor Royce leads the inquiry into Lysa's death).
  • remember that much of aFfC synchs with aDwD: Cersei receiving the news of Davos's death after being taken prisoner at White Harbor, Boltons moving on Moat Cailin, receives a letter from the Lords Declarant.
  • Alayne 2 estimated to occur between aDwD Jon 7 and Jon 8 (when Jon sends Val in search of Tormund).
  • Arianne's, Selmy's, Tyrion's, Vic's, Theon's, Asha's and Aerion's released or peeked at chapters of tWoW occur before Jon's final chapter. So, much of what was written and hauled out of aDwD to be relegated to tWoW is estimated to have occurred late July and first half of August of 300 AC.
  • Between Alayne 2 of aFfC and Jon 12 of aDwD is at best a 3 month discrepance.
  • Sansa's namedays fall about a moon/month before the change of the year, in aGoT (298), in aCoK (299) and in aSoS (300).
  • Jon 12 estimated to occur second half of August 300 AC.

So, it took aFfC to progress from beginning of February 300 AC until May 300 AC for Sansa, which is 3 months. It took the latter half of aDwD to progress 3 months beyond Alayne 2. It would take little over another 3 months before she has her name day, which would be half a year after Alayne 2.

Sansa's tWoW chapter has few timeline references, and most can be altered:

  • Sansa thinks of Queen Cersei having had 12 dwarf heads gifted, none which were Tyrion's. So, this chapter was planned by George to occur before the news of Cersei's imprisonment is known, let alone Cersei had her walk of shame. At least it shows that George planned to have HtH lust after a girl who was in reality 13 at the time. It's no biggie to now have it occur after the murder of Kevan, after which Varys and the reader expect Cersei to take control once more. And of course, George can edit or pad the reference to Cersei to the post aDwD or final aDwD timeline events.
  • Myranda mentions that some competitors have arrived a moon before HtH does, and have been scrounging on Nestor Royce's food. Who these competitors are is not clear, but it may allude to Shadrich, Byron, etc... Of course George remains vague enough to have it include other guests, and Shadrich et all were hired by LF anyway.
  • However, the timeline reference with regards to HtH in Sansa's excerpt chapter provides a window on how much timeline George can stretch it. In Alayne 2, Sansa learns that HtH has 1 bastard child and another is on the way. Sansa's excerpt chapter refers to this. HtH says his firstborn is 2, but his second is not yet born. Allowing a certain amount of time for a young woman to discover she's preggers, to inform HtH, and for Myranda at the Gates of the Moon to learn of it, we're looking at Saffron being about 3 moons pregnant (or longer) by the time Sansa learns of it in Alayne 2. Since Saffron has not yet birthed the child when HtH talks to Sansa at the ball, Sansa's excerpt chapter, must fall within the next 6 months (half november), and thus before Sansa turns 14.

As it is unlikely that Sansa's chapter would fall at the end of tWoW, as it sets up all that will befall in the Vale during tWoW, it either occurs alongside the other excerpt chapters, with pretty much all of them occurring before Jon 12, or shortly after, making it the second half of Sansa's 13th year.

My grievances with Tyrion are multifold, but can be summarized as, "Rich boy pitying himself, but loves harming women in retribution, and seeing rape as a valid instrument of war and revenge." There's a long list of women he either hoped to be raped and killed, cheered being killed, he killed, he raped, he resents for not giving it to him. He's the guy getting picked on, who then kicks the dog, so he can wallow in his self misery some more, feel superior than those of lower birth or social status. Just absolute yuck :ack: 

Can we please, please just agree to disagree. I think we have fundamental agreements here, and we honestly don't need to continue this age thing. I don't care. I don't care if she is 13 or 14 okay? 
End part about Tyrion I agree with you completely. Like point for point. He treats those below him badly and that gets glossed over. Even his interactions with Bron (although mostly good) show his disdain for those from a lower class, as he often talks about Bron being insolent in cases where a different character (say Eddard) might see the way Bron was talking as friendly. As I've reread the books (now on my fourth time), I've picked up the distinct difference in how the Lannisters and Starks treat those of a "lower class" like servants. George clearly wrote this way on purpose and I think it shows his writing talent and his knowledge of how the environment you are raised in has lasting effects on you. Even Sansa, with all her fantasies, has fundamentally more respect for servants than the Lannisters do. And Tyrion's mysogyny becomes more....grating on my nerves the more times I read the book. I still enjoy his chapters, but his treatment of Shae, and his ideas about their relationship...make me increasingly annoyed with each reread. As GRRM has said many times, Tyrion is his most gray character, and I think it is the fact that he has a fandom that defends his every action and treats him like some perfect hero makes me dislike him more than if he didn't have this kind of treatment in the fandom (same for Stannis). However, Tyrion plainly raped a prostitute and ...terrorized another prostitute in ADwD, so.....there is also just that. And finally, Tyrion's murder of Shae. It is something I think the show, and people who watch the show, have turned so that Tyrion looks better. In the show, Shae attacks him, then he kills her. In the books, he just kills her, while she begs him for her life. It's pretty freaking dark, especially if you think of all the times he claimed he "wanted her to be happy". Yes, she did betray him...but did she have a choice? We never did find out enough there....but even if she willingly jumped at an opportunity to betray him, murder of your former "loved" one is still pretty dark. Wait, one more, Tyrion's constantly acting like he has it the worst in the world because of being a little person, meanwhile...he is extremely wealthy, well educated, and has power up tell ASoS that he repeatedly acts like is "nothing". He treats those below him fairly badly as you mentioned, and I mentioned above..and just generally has a victim complex that while warranted sometimes, is other times imagined (or over-exaggerated). 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no reason to make it into personal issues.

I loathe Tyrion and have little to no sympathy for him. In some respects I consider him to be worse than some of the monstrous people, because he actually has the intelligence and the potential for empathy, except when it comes to women, and aiding and abetting with people he despises morally himself.

How is what Cersei did to Robert before murdering him worse? Is it worse that she had an affair, while he had them too? Is it worse she birthed bastards, while he had more bastards than her? And it's not something she made him do. He was fighting a war and killed Rhaegar in part for his love of Lyanna, but fucked every whore in the Peach while Joncon besieged the town and begot Gendry on a tavern wench while Ned went looking for Lyanna. That man was never much husband material. He's right when he says he should just have gone to Essos and be a sellsword for a company to fight, drink and wench himself to death.

To each.... But sure do apply the moral stance and custom of Westeros....

Edited by Orm
Sentence construction

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54 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

End part about Tyrion I agree with you completely. Like point for point. He treats those below him badly and that gets glossed over. Even his interactions with Bron (although mostly good) show his disdain for those from a lower class, as he often talks about Bron being insolent in cases where a different character (say Eddard) might see the way Bron was talking as friendly. As I've reread the books (now on my fourth time), I've picked up the distinct difference in how the Lannisters and Starks treat those of a "lower class" like servants. George clearly wrote this way on purpose and I think it shows his writing talent and his knowledge of how the environment you are raised in has lasting effects on you. Even Sansa, with all her fantasies, has fundamentally more respect for servants than the Lannisters do. And Tyrion's mysogyny becomes more....grating on my nerves the more times I read the book. I still enjoy his chapters, but his treatment of Shae, and his ideas about their relationship...make me increasingly annoyed with each reread. As GRRM has said many times, Tyrion is his most gray character, and I think it is the fact that he has a fandom that defends his every action and treats him like some perfect hero makes me dislike him more than if he didn't have this kind of treatment in the fandom (same for Stannis). However, Tyrion plainly raped a prostitute and ...terrorized another prostitute in ADwD, so.....there is also just that. And finally, Tyrion's murder of Shae. It is something I think the show, and people who watch the show, have turned so that Tyrion looks better. In the show, Shae attacks him, then he kills her. In the books, he just kills her, while she begs him for her life. It's pretty freaking dark, especially if you think of all the times he claimed he "wanted her to be happy". Yes, she did betray him...but did she have a choice? We never did find out enough there....but even if she willingly jumped at an opportunity to betray him, murder of your former "loved" one is still pretty dark. Wait, one more, Tyrion's constantly acting like he has it the worst in the world because of being a little person, meanwhile...he is extremely wealthy, well educated, and has power up tell ASoS that he repeatedly acts like is "nothing". He treats those below him fairly badly as you mentioned, and I mentioned above..and just generally has a victim complex that while warranted sometimes, is other times imagined (or over-exaggerated). 

I never got the "i love Tyrion" (as in he's a sympathetic character) on my first read even. I had sympathy up to the Crossroads Inn in Cat's chapter. The inn is full, but he throws his money around to get someone else's room. I got that he was angry and upset with Cat. I could get he would wish her killed, but his mind bends to raping there as well. That gave me a bitter taste, and then he gets back to his papa and is glad to see Masha Heddle swinging from a rope. Like what the hell was Masha Heddle going to do when the lords and ladies and knights and sellswords play at "highway kidnapping"? His whole Shae plot from start to end annoys me to no end, both when he fawns over her as when he puts her back in a servant position, takes away all her jewelry (allegedly all for her safety, but he puts her even in more danger). Sure, Shae is a gold digging prostitute, but he knew that from the start and as far as I'm concerned he reneged on his exclusivity contract with her once he put her in a position she ran away from home for and took back all the riches he had paid her with. It became all work for no pay and no play. He basically made her into his bed slave. The slave at Illyrio, who officially isn't one. He enjoyed scaring her. Every thought, every utterance to the working class and slaves, especially women is foul to no end. The sole time I can bear him is on the Shy Maid, when he's sobered up and gets to be a clown. But then he gets drunk again and rapes a slave. But woe me, thinks Tyrion :ack:

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's no reason to make it into personal issues.

I loathe Tyrion and have little to no sympathy for him. In some respects I consider him to be worse than some of the monstrous people, because he actually has the intelligence and the potential for empathy, except when it comes to women, and aiding and abetting with people he despises morally himself.

How is what Cersei did to Robert before murdering him worse? Is it worse that she had an affair, while he had them too? Is it worse she birthed bastards, while he had more bastards than her? And it's not something she made him do. He was fighting a war and killed Rhaegar in part for his love of Lyanna, but fucked every whore in the Peach while Joncon besieged the town and begot Gendry on a tavern wench while Ned went looking for Lyanna. That man was never much husband material. He's right when he says he should just have gone to Essos and be a sellsword for a company to fight, drink and wench himself to death.

1) Yes. Cersei sleeping around and having bastards was much worse than Robert, because she passed off her bastards born of incest as his children and sowed the seeds for a major war that would tear the country apart for power.

2) Did he? The villagers at the Stony Sept were moving him from place to place to escape Jon a connington soldiers. Whether he slept with every whore in the Peach isn’t confirmed and we don’t know how the timelines lineup for finding out about Lyannas death and impregnating Gendrys mom. He probably would have cheated on Lyanna, but Davos cheats on his wife and they have a loving relationship. I imagine that he would have had a better married life if he wasn’t married to Cersei.

 

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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On 8/1/2020 at 6:16 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

as Sansa at 13

I've seem many girls at 13-14 who look like 18-20 yo. I am 21 for exemple and people ask me if i'm 18. But look at the books:

Sansa seems to be like Catelyn, and if the rumors about Catelyn's appearance are to be true, Sansa looking like a woman at 13 is not unlikely. Even Sandor said she looked older, like a woman. Some people mature earlier.

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On 8/1/2020 at 6:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he's 19. Attracted to a 13 year old, yuck

Unless she didn't look like a 13 yo. Rememeber the conversation Alayne Stone had with Myranda Royce, when they talked about their appearences. 

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4 hours ago, Helman Corbray said:
On 8/1/2020 at 3:36 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I think he's 19. Attracted to a 13 year old, yuck

Unless she didn't look like a 13 yo. Rememeber the conversation Alayne Stone had with Myranda Royce, when they talked about their appearences. 

You have to remember that men in Westeros will pay good gold to "take" a girl's maidenhead. For that, you've got to get them young. Really young. Any man lusting after a 12 or 13 year old would NOT be considered a perv. Totally normal, particularly if she was a "professional" just starting her "career."

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Posted (edited)
On 8/10/2020 at 2:24 PM, Wall Flower said:

Sorry, Orm but you're literally saying that you don't have a negative opinion of Robert because he only rapes Cersei (as far as we know) and Cersei is a bad person. I can't speak for the Lord of Raventree Hall but Robert raping Cersei gives me an extremely negative view of him, because rape is inexcusable whatever the character of the person being raped. In any case, Robert doesn't know about Cersei's bad actions so I'm not sure how they're relevant to his treatment of her.

Cersei and Robert may bring out the worst in each other but that worst has to be there in both their characters. 

Ok I didn't read this when Lord Raventree hall went ranting and venting his life issues on the subject of Why Robert was more bad than good......

Just asking for retrospect and morality check.... Who do you think is the worse human being, Aegon I Targaryen or Robert I Baratheon?

And I did go back to read the Cersei/Robert "rape scene" .... It wasn't actually as extreme as rape, but rather forced, and by Cersie's admission she doesn't feel victimized.... Jaime and Barristan(while they do mention the brutalisation of Rhaella by the mad cunt) but never mention it, Nor does ser Arys...... And Robert after getting the off putting gesture from her, leaves her as she is...... That's about it on Roberts end.... compare that to Cersei's emotional abuse and evil deceit on every turn....

And why is it relevant? Once, Cersei  hits Robert so hard the next morning that one of his teeth falls off.... Robert doesn't do anything to her for that, I assume cause Cersei or anybody else doesn't mention it.....

Again I am making it clear that almost everyone in westeros/Planetos is shit(curtsy the abhorrent social systems they live in) when Judged with our collective moral compass... Maybe, but Brianne.......

But, Robert on the first book seems to be a chloric good dude to me who is apathetic at times.. and "Robert Baratheon is a good man in many ways" is what Martin said himself.... So deal with it.....

 

Edited by Orm
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3 hours ago, Orm said:

Ok I didn't read this when Lord Raventree hall went ranting and venting his life issues on the subject of Why Robert was more bad than good......

Just asking for retrospect and morality check.... Who do you think is the worse human being, Aegon I Targaryen or Robert I Baratheon?

And I did go back to read the Cersei/Robert "rape scene" .... It wasn't actually as extreme as rape, but rather forced, and by Cersie's admission she doesn't feel victimized.... Jaime and Barristan(while they do mention the brutalisation of Rhaella by the mad cunt) but never mention it, Nor does ser Arys...... And Robert after getting the off putting gesture from her, leaves her as she is...... That's about it on Roberts end.... compare that to Cersei's emotional abuse and evil deceit on every turn....

And why is it relevant? Once, Cersei  hits Robert so hard the next morning that one of his teeth falls off.... Robert doesn't do anything to her for that, I assume cause Cersei or anybody else doesn't mention it.....

Again I am making it clear that almost everyone in westeros/Planetos is shit(curtsy the abhorrent social systems they live in) when Judged with our collective moral compass... Maybe, but Brianne.......

But, Robert on the first book seems to be a chloric good dude to me who is apathetic at times.. and "Robert Baratheon is a good man in many ways" is what Martin said himself.... So deal with it.....

 

He also said Dany and Drogo was 'sexy and romantic'

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, R2D said:

He also said Dany and Drogo was 'sexy and romantic'

If the author says so, who are we to disagree, eh?

Although the book version is less rapey than the show version..... Which I really didn't understand why they changed that in the show as I watched the show first, before the books you see....

Then Martin says things like "the only thing worth writing about is the conflict within the human heart" which I think makes the books are really good and entertaining.....

Edited by Orm
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On 8/11/2020 at 7:36 PM, zandru said:

You have to remember that men in Westeros will pay good gold to "take" a girl's maidenhead. For that, you've got to get them young. Really young. Any man lusting after a 12 or 13 year old would NOT be considered a perv. Totally normal, particularly if she was a "professional" just starting her "career."

I disagree with that.

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed.

Maybe not as shocking as it is in our society, but there would still be disgust from some quarters.

Even Tywin seems to acknowledge this

 
"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."
 
Marriage and consummation of the marriage seems to be seen, but in their society I don't think it that acceptable men lusting over 12 and 13-year-olds.

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