Hypothetical: Aerys ll died as a child....

[Orm]

Who is heir to the crown after Jahearys ll ?..... Is it going to be Rhaella his daughter or Steffon his nephew?

If Steffon does take the crown, does he have to change his surname into Targaryen?..... How will that go with his dad Ormund?.... Since he is his only known offspring......

If Rhaella is crowned....... Will it be accepted peacefully? Since there's a history of undermining female heirs to the throne......

Rhaella and Steffon are quite under looked characters......... They seem decent human beings from what little we know of them..... And its unfortunate that their children after them have turned into sworn enemies....... So just wanted a discussion based around them......

[nyser1]

House Baratheon in KL starts a bit sooner, whether by civil war or not.

[The Hoare]

Rhaella is the daughter of the current king, while Steffon is the son of a sister of the king. Rhaella's claim is much stronger

 

[nyser1]

1 minute ago, The Hoare said:

Rhaella is the daughter of the current king, while Steffon is the son of a sister of the king. Rhaella's claim is much stronger

 

Yet there has never been a reigning female monarch in Westerosi history outside of Dorne. There is a precedent of a Targaryen female heir's claim being seen as inferior to a younger male, enough to lead to a civil war.

[The Hoare]

18 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Yet there has never been a reigning female monarch in Westerosi history outside of Dorne. There is a precedent of a Targaryen female heir's claim being seen as inferior to a younger male, enough to lead to a civil war.

Yes, but the younger male isn't a Targaryen, he's a baratheon whose claim comes from the female side as well

[nyser1]

Just now, The Hoare said:

Yes, but the younger male isn't a Targaryen, he's a baratheon whose claim comes from the female side as well

I am not arguing with who has a better claim, but that there will be gravitation and preferability amongst at least some to go for a Male of Targaryen blood. 

[Carlael Baratheon]

It's easy to see Steffon take the Stephen of Blois route (even their names sound alike), after all, uncontested female rule has never been a thing for the Iron Throne, and their are multiple precedents where females have been overlooked in the line of succession (in the cases of Jahaerys I's Great Council and Baelor's sisters).

However, more likely than not Steffon and Rhaella would be betrothed towards each other. I could see Steffon, having been a close friend and advisor to Aerys originally, being a supporter of Targaryen rule. However, whether he'd take up the Targaryen name is hard to say, he was his father's only son after all. Of course, there's also the fact of Rhaella's mild character, having never had much of a political presence despite how many years of queenship, but who knows, maybe in this timelines, having been groomed as her father's heir, she'd desplay surprising political competence and push for a matralinial marriage with Steffon.

Of course, wether it be a royal House Baratheon or a royal House Targaryen and whether it'd be Rhaella in charge or Steffon de facto king, could just be a matter of politics, after all, not all lords would take kindly to bending the knee to a Baratheon.

OR, Steffon marries the Estermont and Rhaella marries some other cousin matralinially and nothing of political importance happens at all.

[The Hoare]

36 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

I am not arguing with who has a better claim, but that there will be gravitation and preferability amongst at least some to go for a Male of Targaryen blood. 

That's correct, people in Westeros prefer male rulers, but they could gravitate towards Rhaelle's husband as well.

[Megorova]

When Aerys was born, his mother, princess Shaera, was 18 years old, and his father, Jaehaerys, was 19 years old. Shaera was still alive in 260, during the War of Ninepenny Kings. Jaehaerys died in 262, two years after that war. Both Jaehaerys and Shaera survived Summerhall's burning. If their only son died as a child, then they would have gave birth to more children. They were young enough, and they loved each other. Jaehaerys had weak health. If the pressure of not having an heir would have caused his early death, then Shaera could have married a second time, with her brother, Daeron.

Aerys was born in 244. His sister-wife, Rhaella, in 245 or 246. And their uncle, Daeron, was born in 228, and died aged 23, in 251.

Between the year of Aerys' birth and the year of Daeron's death, there's 7 years gap. If Aerys died aged 1-2 years old, like majority of those Targaryen-babies that didn't lived long, then his parents would have still had time until Daeron's death, to have one more child, or if Jaehaerys died in one of those 5 years, his sister-wife would have had time to marry with Daeron and have a son fathered by him.

Daeron was supposedly gay, though there were other cases in Targaryen history, when gay-characters married and had children, in or out of marriage. Laenor Velaryon had two sons with Marilda of Hull.

If Jaehaerys died before fathering another son, and Shaera didn't married with Daeron, then Aegon V could have convinced Duncan the Small to retrieve his abdication. Duncan was only 2-4 years older than Shaera. The Small Council and High Septon could have annulled Duncan's marriage with Jenny, if Targaryen dynasty was under threat of succession crisis, and Jenny was baren. Or they could have allowed Duncan to take Shaera as his second wife, in case if Jaehaerys died before fathering another son, and if Daeron was unavailable, unwilling, or dead. Or if Duncan and Jenny had children, then one of their sons would have been "adopted" by Aegon or by Shaera, and would have became the Crown Prince of Targaryens.

Daeron could have married with some other girl, not necessary Shaera. If he had a son with his wife, then that son could have married with his first cousin Princess Rhaella, and he would have been a Crown Prince and the future King. Without Shaera getting married a second time.

If Duncan was unwilling to marry with Shaera, if Daeron also was against marrying with her, or with anyone else, then there's still King Aegon V. He was born in 200, and was 44-46 at the time when were born Aerys and Rhaella. He still could have had more children with his wife Betha. Alysanne Targaryen, wife of Jaehaerys I, gave birth to their last child, when she was 44, and he was 46. Rohanne Webber-Lannister gave birth to her last son, when she was 43-44. Jon Arryn supposedly fathered Robert, when he was 72-74. Craster was in his 50s or 60s, and he still had children.

Thus, there are many more viable options, before giving Targaryen crown to Baratheons.

[R2D]

They would simply have more children.

[Orm]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

When Aerys was born, his mother, princess Shaera, was 18 years old, and his father, Jaehaerys, was 19 years old. Shaera was still alive in 260, during the War of Ninepenny Kings. Jaehaerys died in 262, two years after that war. Both Jaehaerys and Shaera survived Summerhall's burning. If their only son died as a child, then they would have gave birth to more children. They were young enough, and they loved each other. Jaehaerys had weak health. If the pressure of not having an heir would have caused his early death, then Shaera could have married a second time, with her brother, Daeron.

Aerys was born in 244. His sister-wife, Rhaella, in 245 or 246. And their uncle, Daeron, was born in 228, and died aged 23, in 251.

Between the year of Aerys' birth and the year of Daeron's death, there's 7 years gap. If Aerys died aged 1-2 years old, like majority of those Targaryen-babies that didn't lived long, then his parents would have still had time until Daeron's death, to have one more child, or if Jaehaerys died in one of those 5 years, his sister-wife would have had time to marry with Daeron and have a son fathered by him.

Daeron was supposedly gay, though there were other cases in Targaryen history, when gay-characters married and had children, in or out of marriage. Laenor Velaryon had two sons with Marilda of Hull.

If Jaehaerys died before fathering another son, and Shaera didn't married with Daeron, then Aegon V could have convinced Duncan the Small to retrieve his abdication. Duncan was only 2-4 years older than Shaera. The Small Council and High Septon could have annulled Duncan's marriage with Jenny, if Targaryen dynasty was under threat of succession crisis, and Jenny was baren. Or they could have allowed Duncan to take Shaera as his second wife, in case if Jaehaerys died before fathering another son, and if Daeron was unavailable, unwilling, or dead. Or if Duncan and Jenny had children, then one of their sons would have been "adopted" by Aegon or by Shaera, and would have became the Crown Prince of Targaryens.

Daeron could have married with some other girl, not necessary Shaera. If he had a son with his wife, then that son could have married with his first cousin Princess Rhaella, and he would have been a Crown Prince and the future King. Without Shaera getting married a second time.

If Duncan was unwilling to marry with Shaera, if Daeron also was against marrying with her, or with anyone else, then there's still King Aegon V. He was born in 200, and was 44-46 at the time when were born Aerys and Rhaella. He still could have had more children with his wife Betha. Alysanne Targaryen, wife of Jaehaerys I, gave birth to their last child, when she was 44, and he was 46. Rohanne Webber-Lannister gave birth to her last son, when she was 43-44. Jon Arryn supposedly fathered Robert, when he was 72-74. Craster was in his 50s or 60s, and he still had children.

Thus, there are many more viable options, before giving Targaryen crown to Baratheons.

 

5 hours ago, R2D said:

They would simply have more children.

You are really good with numbers Megarova...... But if it was that simple of a solution for them to have more children I believe that it was imperative that they( All Aegon's kids) had more children even if they had heirs in Aerys , Rhaella and Steffon....... Just 3 heirs is a little too close for comfort....... And it just vexes   that Steffon was only the one heir to the Baratheon line while also being effectively 2nd in line if anything happens to Aerys before he has any issue.......

[Orm]

6 hours ago, The Hoare said:

That's correct, people in Westeros prefer male rulers, but they could gravitate towards Rhaelle's husband as well.

Is it possible that Jahearys might consider marrying Rhaella to Steffon?..... To let's say avoid division/conflict in his succession...... 

[Bastard of Nightsong]

Why does everyone appear to be operating on the assumption that Summerhall still happens? That event is directly tied to the WoHH's prophecy about "the line of Aerys and Rhaella." No Aerys means no line, so if we were ever going to get the PtwP, the return of magic, new dragons, etc.--it requires some other course of events/prophecy. Which doesn't necessarily call for Egg and most of his family to get incinerated. Once Aerys is out of the picture, all future events predicated on his existence are completely up in the air. (At least those events. Potentially also everything else due to Butterfly Effect, but throwing everything we know out the window because it might change seems to me to ruin these hypotheticals.)

All of which is not to say Summerhall would definitely not happen now: rather, I simply think it should be considered to be up in the air.

[R2D]

Bump

[Targknight]

Steffon would change his name to Targaryen, and possibly Wed Rhaella.

The Kingdom would favor male heirs. Robert would be called a Targaryen.

[Floki of the Ironborn]

On 8/1/2020 at 5:15 PM, Megorova said:

 

Daeron was supposedly gay, though there were other cases in Targaryen history, when gay-characters married and had children, in or out of marriage. Laenor Velaryon had two sons with Marilda of Hull.

 

Laenor didn't have those kids with Marilda. Corlys Velaryon had those kids with Marilda and said it was his son so his wife wouldn't find out. 

[Orm]

24 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Steffon would change his name to Targaryen, and possibly Wed Rhaella.

Possible...... But how would Ormund Baratheon take this? I mean Steffon is his only issue......

 

25 minutes ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

The Kingdom would favor male heirs. Robert would be called a Targaryen

Except if Rhaella and Steffon had kids, they wouldn't be Rhaegar or Robert.....lol......

[Megorova]

On 8/3/2020 at 10:33 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Laenor didn't have those kids with Marilda. Corlys Velaryon had those kids with Marilda and said it was his son so his wife wouldn't find out. 

I doubt that the father of Marilda's children was Corlys. Because at that time he was 61 and 62 years old, and Marilda was 44 years younger than him. To me it seems more believable that young Marilda was able to seduce Laenor, even though he was gay, than the possibility that 60-years old Corlys seduced 16-years old Marilda, or that he could have been interested in her.

From Wikia:

"While both boys had Laenor's look, and Laenor had indeed been known to have visited the shipyard in Hull, where Marilda worked, from time to time, many were skeptical of the claim, as they recalled Laenor's preference of men over women. Laenor's father, Lord Corlys, however, gladly accepted his two grandchildren, although Mushroom insists in his Testimony that the children had not been fathered by Laenor, but by Corlys himself. Regardless of the parentage, Corlys's request for both boys to be legitimized by Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen was granted. During the Sowing, Addam claimed Laenor's dragon Seasmoke."

People saw Laenor visiting Marilda's shipyard. The same can't be said about his father.

Though, even if the father was Corlys, it only strengthens one of options that I mentioned in my previous post - at the time of Aerys' and Rhaella's birth, Aegon V was 44-46, so if 60-something years old Corlys managed to father two sons, then Aegon also could have had more children with Betha, and one of those children, a son, would have became Aerys' replacement, if Aerys died in early childhood.

EDIT:

On 8/3/2020 at 10:33 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Corlys Velaryon had those kids with Marilda and said it was his son so his wife wouldn't find out. 

Addam and Alyn had silver hair and purple eyes, same as Laenor Velaryon, while Laenor's official children, his three sons with Rhaenyra - Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey, had brown hair and brown eyes.

If Targaryens acknowledged Marilda's children as Laenor's sons, then it would have became obvious to people, that Rhaenyra's three oldest sons are Harwin Strong's bastards.

If Rhaenyra would have became the Queen, then eventually Jacaerys, as her firstborn, would have became the King of 7K. And do you think that Lords of 7K would have accepted a bastard-King?

First - a female ruler, and then a bastard ruler. I doubt that they would have been Ok with it.

Thus, it was more favourable for both Targaryens and Velaryons to spread a rumor that Addam and Alyn are not Laenor's children, and that their father is Corlys. That way there would have been less reasons for people to question the paternity of Rhaenyra's three non-Targaryen looking princes.

Laenor was the real father of Marilda's children, while Corlys, as their father, was just a red herring.

Corlys' wife, finding out that her husband supposedly fathered a couple of bastards, would have been a much lesser evil, than if an entire population of Westeros would have found out, that the Crown Prince is a bastard.

[S. D]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

I doubt that the father of Marilda's children was Corlys. Because at that time he was 61 and 62 years old, and Marilda was 44 years younger than him. To me it seems more believable that young Marilda was able to seduce Laenor, even though he was gay, than the possibility that 60-years old Corlys seduced 16-years old Marilda, or that he could have been interested in her.

From Wikia:

"While both boys had Laenor's look, and Laenor had indeed been known to have visited the shipyard in Hull, where Marilda worked, from time to time, many were skeptical of the claim, as they recalled Laenor's preference of men over women. Laenor's father, Lord Corlys, however, gladly accepted his two grandchildren, although Mushroom insists in his Testimony that the children had not been fathered by Laenor, but by Corlys himself. Regardless of the parentage, Corlys's request for both boys to be legitimized by Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen was granted. During the Sowing, Addam claimed Laenor's dragon Seasmoke."

People saw Laenor visiting Marilda's shipyard. The same can't be said about his father.

Though, even if the father was Corlys, it only strengthens one of options that I mentioned in my previous post - at the time of Aerys' and Rhaella's birth, Aegon V was 44-46, so if 60-something years old Corlys managed to father two sons, then Aegon also could have had more children with Betha, and one of those children, a son, would have became Aerys' replacement, if Aerys died in early childhood.

Gross.

Don't invalidate sexualities like that. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

I doubt that the father of Marilda's children was Corlys. Because at that time he was 61 and 62 years old, and Marilda was 44 years younger than him. To me it seems more believable that young Marilda was able to seduce Laenor, even though he was gay, than the possibility that 60-years old Corlys seduced 16-years old Marilda, or that he could have been interested in her.

From Wikia:

"While both boys had Laenor's look, and Laenor had indeed been known to have visited the shipyard in Hull, where Marilda worked, from time to time, many were skeptical of the claim, as they recalled Laenor's preference of men over women. Laenor's father, Lord Corlys, however, gladly accepted his two grandchildren, although Mushroom insists in his Testimony that the children had not been fathered by Laenor, but by Corlys himself. Regardless of the parentage, Corlys's request for both boys to be legitimized by Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen was granted. During the Sowing, Addam claimed Laenor's dragon Seasmoke."

People saw Laenor visiting Marilda's shipyard. The same can't be said about his father.

Though, even if the father was Corlys, it only strengthens one of options that I mentioned in my previous post - at the time of Aerys' and Rhaella's birth, Aegon V was 44-46, so if 60-something years old Corlys managed to father two sons, then Aegon also could have had more children with Betha, and one of those children, a son, would have became Aerys' replacement, if Aerys died in early childhood.

Okay, first of all, Corlys is 44 years older than Marilda, but he's also the third or second most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms. If Walder frigging Frey can continually find younger and younger brides, I'm pretty sure that Corlys could have his way with any lowbown woman whom he takes a shine to. It's the sad truth of men in power using it for selfish reasons. 

Secondly, Laenor could just as easily have been visiting the dockyards to meet men instead of women. Him being at the docks proves nothing except that he was there once in a while. For all we know, he took part in all-male orgies below deck of one ship or another. There was a Lannister king who went down to Lannisport's shipyards dressed as a woman, after all. I don't know what it is about shipyards and docks to have this reputation for being more sexually liberated than other parts of society, but it's clearly a thing in Westeros at least.

And thirdly, who says Corlys wasn't ever at Hull's shipyards? He was nicknamed the Sea Snake, and a Targaryen princess complained that he was more interested in sailing than her. Corlys was so gung-ho about the sea that he couldn't have been bothered to make a nice impression to his king's daughter as a possible bride! I refuse to believe that he never once visited Hull's shipyards. Plus, Marilda is a sailor too. Who says they couldn't have met anywhere else?

Fourthly, Addam claiming Laenor's dragon proves nothing because Laenor is either his father or his half-brother, and either way they have a close blood connection. Dragon ownership isn't determined by blood, otherwise how did Ulf or Hugh Hammer claim any dragons for themselves?