Orys: who was that guy actually?

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) What notions? Their arrogance or their belligerence? Argilac had both and to an extent, so did Argella.

Argilac is known for his arrogance, not so much for the kind of things that made Rogar and his brothers, the Four Storms, or Robert and his brothers notorious. And Argella just tried to keep the crown she rightfully inherited. We don't learn anything about her personality aside from that one scene.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Olena is probably a bit bitter about being rejected by a Targaryen, but for what it’s worth, she recognizes that Baratheons as being basically a continuation of House Durrandon in that same conversation with Sansa.

But she attributes the Baratheon traits to their Targaryen blood, i.e. their descent from Aerion Targaryen via Orys (and the more recent Rhaelle thing). Nobody attributes the Baratheon traits to their Storm King blood.

The Durrandons are so irrelevant for the overall story that the name is never mentioned in ASoIaF proper so far.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Of course, not all Baratheons are going to fit the mould, but go back to Durran Godsgrief. His most notable trait was his determination. He constantly rebuilt his castle after the Storm God destroyed it, until the castle wouldn’t fall (with Bran the Builders help).

Not sure what parallel that should be - we also don't think all Lannisters are clever, all Starks are builders, etc.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) We don’t know all of the Baratheons or Durrandons of course, but for what it’s worth, they did reuse Ormund.

Ormund and Manfryd and some of the other names are so popular that we cannot connect them with a particular family. The Lannisters, Starks, and Arryns still seem to use their old royal names a lot ... but the Baratheons didn't reuse one generic Durrandon name so far.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Keep in mind that the Tyrells and most Houses can trace their families back to royalty, because they intermarried so often. She singled out the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Baratheons, because she recognizes them as essentially being a continuation of the Durrandons.

Olenna downplays the Baratheons there - they are just royalty through the female line, not the male line like the Lannisters, Starks, and Arryns. Which is my entire point here. The Baratheons on their own are not very royal nor very impressive compared to the really big families of Westeros.

The problem of the Tyrells is that they are lesser nobility raised very high ... who were unable to marry a Gardener daughter to strengthen their claim. Their ties with the Gardeners are very old and obscure. But Orys' standing is much worse than that of Harlan Tyrell - that guy was at least a Westerosi nobleman with a proud lineage, even if they were only hereditary stewards. But Aegon's buddy Orys was just that - his buddy, and a rumored bastard with an obscure commoner mother.

5 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Sure, I'm just saying in general the genetics in the story aren't thought out all that well. And the persistence of certain traits identified with specific houses across thousands of years of intermarriage between Westerosi nobility (not to mention all the bastards and their descendants in that timeframe) isn't very realistic. I'm not saying this bothers me much, it's a fantasy story and it's not something that's going to ruin it for me by any means.

To be sure, we don't have any indication that any traits stretched through thousands of years aside from the Lannister and Arryn hair. We have no idea how the Starks looked 500 or 5,000 years ago. And even there we don't have to assume all Arryns were blond or that all Lannisters are golden-haired, etc.

9 minutes ago, Orm said:

When Lyonel declared his rebellion and Secession from the irone-throne he took the title of Storm king (This is the title of Durrandon Storm kings of old)......

Also, he named his son and heir Ormund..this is a name Durrandons used multiple times.....

Ormund Baratheon is not very likely to have been Lyonel's son. He was his heir, but it is more likely he was a grandson, considering how old Lyonel already was in 209 AC. And if it is a grandson then chances are not that high that the name was even picked by Lord Lyonel but rather by his mother or father. But again - the name is used by many houses. It is like trying make Alys or Alyn a name connected to a particular family. We cannot do that.

And we all know that Lyonel wanted to be Storm King. He failed.

[Orm]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Olenna downplays the Baratheons there - they are just royalty through the female line, not the male line like the Lannisters, Starks, and Arryns. Which is my entire point here. The Baratheons on their own are not very royal nor very impressive compared to the really big families of Westeros.

Why do you don't mention that all Lannisters are descended from Joffrey Lydden, huh?..... The Starks could be wildling bastards, but in-world Nobody knows it....... So your "male line" royalty is a bit stupid when you mention Lannisters and Starks to compare......

And the Baratheons  not being impressive or Royal compared to the other "great" houses is a thing your making up for whatever gratification you get from it..

Especially when in FB, When the idea of destroying the Baratheons and Lannisters was proposed by the prince this is what Corlys Velaryon had to say,

"Half the lords of westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy TWO such ANCIENT and NOBLE houses."-lord Corlys.....

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Ormund Baratheon is not very likely to have been Lyonel's son. He was his heir, but it is more likely he was a grandson, considering how old Lyonel already was in 209 AC. And if it is a grandson then chances are not that high that the name was even picked by Lord Lyonel but rather by his mother or father. But again - the name is used by many houses. It is like trying make Alys or Alyn a name connected to a particular family. We cannot do that.

Ok... Let's play it your way..... So tell me why aren't the Baratheons using "Baratheon" names? I can't recall one Baratheon named Orys after the founder....Or any Valyrian name for that matter.... What gave you the idea that the names are Baratheon names??

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And we all know that Lyonel wanted to be Storm King. He failed.

No he didn't... He gave an instant Fu*k you to Aegon V(who wanted reformation and progression) but didn't have the back bone to control his own heir and broke his solemn oath..... Sure he couldn't follow through, but Aegon still had to give away a consolation prize(his own daughter as compensation)......  Duncan had to renounce his claim....

And with that, when those inbred lunatics Fu*ked up again his Great-grandsons or Great-great-grandsons more than made up for his half losses......

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Argilac is known for his arrogance, not so much for the kind of things that made Rogar and his brothers, the Four Storms, or Robert and his brothers notorious. And Argella just tried to keep the crown she rightfully inherited. We don't learn anything about her personality aside from that one scene.

But she attributes the Baratheon traits to their Targaryen blood, i.e. their descent from Aerion Targaryen via Orys (and the more recent Rhaelle thing). Nobody attributes the Baratheon traits to their Storm King blood.

The Durrandons are so irrelevant for the overall story that the name is never mentioned in ASoIaF proper so far.

Not sure what parallel that should be - we also don't think all Lannisters are clever, all Starks are builders, etc.

Ormund and Manfryd and some of the other names are so popular that we cannot connect them with a particular family. The Lannisters, Starks, and Arryns still seem to use their old royal names a lot ... but the Baratheons didn't reuse one generic Durrandon name so far.

Olenna downplays the Baratheons there - they are just royalty through the female line, not the male line like the Lannisters, Starks, and Arryns. Which is my entire point here. The Baratheons on their own are not very royal nor very impressive compared to the really big families of Westeros.

The problem of the Tyrells is that they are lesser nobility raised very high ... who were unable to marry a Gardener daughter to strengthen their claim. Their ties with the Gardeners are very old and obscure. But Orys' standing is much worse than that of Harlan Tyrell - that guy was at least a Westerosi nobleman with a proud lineage, even if they were only hereditary stewards. But Aegon's buddy Orys was just that - his buddy, and a rumored bastard with an obscure commoner mother.

To be sure, we don't have any indication that any traits stretched through thousands of years aside from the Lannister and Arryn hair. We have no idea how the Starks looked 500 or 5,000 years ago. And even there we don't have to assume all Arryns were blond or that all Lannisters are golden-haired, etc.

Ormund Baratheon is not very likely to have been Lyonel's son. He was his heir, but it is more likely he was a grandson, considering how old Lyonel already was in 209 AC. And if it is a grandson then chances are not that high that the name was even picked by Lord Lyonel but rather by his mother or father. But again - the name is used by many houses. It is like trying make Alys or Alyn a name connected to a particular family. We cannot do that.

And we all know that Lyonel wanted to be Storm King. He failed.

1) Can you be more specific? How is he less mercurial and belligerent than the Baratheons? Didn’t he cut off the hands of Aegons envoys when he offered Orys to his daughter?

2) The war was over. Harrens line had been ended by Dragon fire and Orys slew her Argilac in single combat at that point. She was being obstinate. It was a lost cause.

3) Like I said. She was rejected by a Targaryen and the Baratheon traits seem to be pretty consistent... going back to Durran Godsgrief struggle with the storm god. The Baratheons also have very little Targaryen blood. Roberts grandmother was half Blackwood and we don’t even know if Orys was a Targaryen bastard. It was never confirmed.

4) Obviously not all of them are going to fit the stereotype, but George pretty clearly wanted these legendary Founders to embody traits that would carry on to major Houses like the Lannisters being cunning or the Baratheons being stubborn.

5) Come on, man. That’s a cop out. They have refused Durrandon names. More over they look the same, they have the same castle, the same House Words, the same sigil and often embody the characteristics that the Durrandons were known for.

6) She actually groups the, with the Lannisters, Starks and Arryns and even if they didn’t get Durrandon prestige, they’re still the Kings of Westeros. Their prestige dwarfs every other Great House except for House Targaryen.

7) The Baratheons are objectively a far more prestigious family than the Tyrells. This is directly stated in the books. The Baratheons are Kings of Westeros.

8) Is it? Argilac was famous for his black hair and his daughter had black hair and blue eyes. Orys had black hair and black eyes. It had to come from somewhere.

9) Walder Frey was having children in his ‘80’s.

10) There are 21 Alyns. There are 13 Alys’. There are 4 Ormunds and two of them are Durrandon/Baratheon. That means half. Again, I can also point to all of the many other connections between the Durrandons and the Baratheons.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

Why do you don't mention that all Lannisters are descended from Joffrey Lydden, huh?..... The Starks could be wildling bastards, but in-world Nobody knows it....... So your "male line" royalty is a bit stupid when you mention Lannisters and Starks to compare......

And the Baratheons  not being impressive or Royal compared to the other "great" houses is a thing your making up for whatever gratification you get from it..

Especially when in FB, When the idea of destroying the Baratheons and Lannisters was proposed by the prince this is what Corlys Velaryon had to say,

"Half the lords of westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy TWO such ANCIENT and NOBLE houses."-lord Corlys.....

Ok... Let's play it your way..... So tell me why aren't the Baratheons using "Baratheon" names? I can't recall one Baratheon named Orys after the founder....Or any Valyrian name for that matter.... What gave you the idea that the names are Baratheon names??

No he didn't... He gave an instant Fu*k you to Aegon V(who wanted reformation and progression) but didn't have the back bone to control his own heir and broke his solemn oath..... Sure he couldn't follow through, but Aegon still had to give away a consolation prize(his own daughter as compensation)......  Duncan had to renounce his claim....

And with that, when those inbred lunatics Fu*ked up again his Great-grandsons or Great-great-grandsons more than made up for his half losses......

That’s a good find, man. I’m actually a fan of House Frey, but they’re relatively nouveau Richie. Yet they’re at least twice as old as House Baratheon if you don’t count them as Durrandons (the World History book says that House Frey rose to prominence around 600 years ago when a petty Lord built a bridge, so they’re likely a little older than that). If they’re called an Ancient House, it’s not because they’re Baratheons. It’s because they’re Durrandons.

[Orm]

37 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

That’s a good find, man. I’m actually a fan of House Frey, but they’re relatively nouveau Richie. Yet they’re at least twice as old as House Baratheon if you don’t count them as Durrandons (the World History book says that House Frey rose to prominence around 600 years ago when a petty Lord built a bridge, so they’re likely a little older than that). If they’re called an Ancient House, it’s not because they’re Baratheons. It’s because they’re Durrandons.

Well, if Walder Frey pulled a Lyonel Baratheon on Robb Stark I would have respect for him and his house aswell..... But what he did is too disgusting  that I can't look at him but a disdainful man....

Obviously that doesn't mean or translate that House Frey in its entirety is a tactless house.... There are good and respectful members in that house aswell...

But the Red wedding overshadows it by metrics..... 

[Targknight]

Orys was a Targ Bastard.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

Well, if Walder Frey pulled a Lyonel Baratheon on Robb Stark I would have respect for him and his house aswell..... But what he did is too disgusting  that I can't look at him but a disdainful man....

Obviously that doesn't mean or translate that House Frey in its entirety is a tactless house.... There are good and respectful members in that house aswell...

But the Red wedding overshadows it by metrics..... 

I agree.

 

1 hour ago, Targknight said:

Orys was a Targ Bastard.

He’s rumoured to be one.

[dsjj251]

My personal theory has always been that Orys is actually the son of Valaena , not Aerion.  We get one line of "confirmation" that its Aerion from Jaehaerys, thats it. 

 

It also explains the Baratheon name. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Orm said:

Why do you don't mention that all Lannisters are descended from Joffrey Lydden, huh?..... The Starks could be wildling bastards, but in-world Nobody knows it....... So your "male line" royalty is a bit stupid when you mention Lannisters and Starks to compare......

The descendants of Joffrey Lydden-Lannister all ruled as Kings of the West in between the arrival of the Andals and the Conquest. They are as royal as the descendants of Lann through the male line.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

And the Baratheons  not being impressive or Royal compared to the other "great" houses is a thing your making up for whatever gratification you get from it..

Not sure whether a discussion on that level is reasonable.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

Especially when in FB, When the idea of destroying the Baratheons and Lannisters was proposed by the prince this is what Corlys Velaryon had to say,

"Half the lords of westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy TWO such ANCIENT and NOBLE houses."-lord Corlys.....

Well, if you interpret this as the Baratheon being as ancient as the Lannisters then Corlys must have been senile considering at the time of the Dance they were only 130 years old whereas the Lannisters are thousands of years old.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

Ok... Let's play it your way..... So tell me why aren't the Baratheons using "Baratheon" names? I can't recall one Baratheon named Orys after the founder....Or any Valyrian name for that matter.... What gave you the idea that the names are Baratheon names??

There are no Baratheon names as such considering that Orys is the founder of the house and his father a Targaryen lord. The point was that the Baratheons don't use Durrandon names and we can thus not say they view themselves as Durrandons or try to continue that tradition.

I mean, you are aware that George could have made it so that Robert, Stannis, Renly, Steffon, Lyonel, Rogar, etc. are all famous Durrandon names, right? He did take care to use many of the Stark names or variations of them in the history of House Stark as well as the family tree, just as he took care to do that for the Lannisters, both in TWoIaF as well as in Dunk & Egg (where we hear about kings named Tommen and Lancel). But he didn't care to introduce this kind of continuity with the Lannister names.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

No he didn't... He gave an instant Fu*k you to Aegon V(who wanted reformation and progression) but didn't have the back bone to control his own heir and broke his solemn oath..... Sure he couldn't follow through, but Aegon still had to give away a consolation prize(his own daughter as compensation)......  Duncan had to renounce his claim....

That all had nothing to do with Lyonel. Duncan married a commoner who was unacceptable as a queen to the entire Realm, just as children from that union were unacceptable as kings.

 

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Can you be more specific? How is he less mercurial and belligerent than the Baratheons? Didn’t he cut off the hands of Aegons envoys when he offered Orys to his daughter?

Argilac didn't have the queer notions of Renly, and aside from Ronard the Bastard no Durrandon seems to have tried to usurp the place of his brothers or nephews - unlike Borys Baratheon, Renly and Stannis Baratheon, pull shit like Maris or Cassandra Baratheon, etc.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) The war was over. Harrens line had been ended by Dragon fire and Orys slew her Argilac in single combat at that point. She was being obstinate. It was a lost cause.

So what? She was the Storm Queen now.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

3) Like I said. She was rejected by a Targaryen and the Baratheon traits seem to be pretty consistent... going back to Durran Godsgrief struggle with the storm god. The Baratheons also have very little Targaryen blood. Roberts grandmother was half Blackwood and we don’t even know if Orys was a Targaryen bastard. It was never confirmed.

Well, there you are arguing against the books as such. Renly and Olenna seem to believe the Baratheons do have enough Targaryen blood for it to be significant. Nobody ever bothers anyone with their Estermont blood.

And to be sure - if there is something 'magical' in the Durrandon blood it would have nothing to do with Durran and everything with Elenei who was supposedly a divine magical creature. She could have given her children special traits, not the founder of the house who was just a man.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

4) Obviously not all of them are going to fit the stereotype, but George pretty clearly wanted these legendary Founders to embody traits that would carry on to major Houses like the Lannisters being cunning or the Baratheons being stubborn.

But stubbornness is a trait also present in Orys Baratheon, no?

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

5) Come on, man. That’s a cop out. They have refused Durrandon names. More over they look the same, they have the same castle, the same House Words, the same sigil and often embody the characteristics that the Durrandons were known for.

And you think the descendants of Lord Lancel Lannister of Darry or Lord Ramsay Bolton of Winterfell would also view themselves as Darrys/Starks further down the road?

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

6) She actually groups the, with the Lannisters, Starks and Arryns and even if they didn’t get Durrandon prestige, they’re still the Kings of Westeros. Their prestige dwarfs every other Great House except for House Targaryen.

Because they are Targaryen descendants. This whole thing is about the fact that without their Targaryen blood the Baratheons are the poorest and weakest great lords on the mainland - which is why it was problematic that Robert did not emulate the Targaryens more.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

7) The Baratheons are objectively a far more prestigious family than the Tyrells. This is directly stated in the books. The Baratheons are Kings of Westeros.

I'm talking about the time this wasn't the case.

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

8) Is it? Argilac was famous for his black hair and his daughter had black hair and blue eyes. Orys had black hair and black eyes. It had to come from somewhere.

Can you give a description of Argella Durrandon from George R. R. Martin?

5 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

10) There are 21 Alyns. There are 13 Alys’. There are 4 Ormunds and two of them are Durrandon/Baratheon. That means half. Again, I can also point to all of the many other connections between the Durrandons and the Baratheons.

The only connection there is theft. Theft of the sigil, theft of the castle, theft of the last Storm Queen. They are usurpers and thieves who solidified their rule by forcing the rightful ruler to marry the thief.

[Orm]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The descendants of Joffrey Lydden-Lannister all ruled as Kings of the West in between the arrival of the Andals and the Conquest. They are as royal as the descendants of Lann through the male line.

And the Descendants of Orys who are also Descendents of Argilac, all ruled as Stormlords at the same time those Lydden-lannisters ruled as westerlords....

That until Robert Baratheon became overlord of the continent..... More Royal than Lannisters I am afraid......

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you interpret this as the Baratheon being as ancient as the Lannisters then Corlys must have been senile considering at the time of the Dance they were only 130 years old whereas the Lannisters are thousands of years old.

Corlys happens to be one of my favourite characters in FB ASOIAF.....So careful who your calling senile....

And do tell me, how do we should interpret this, without you changing the text to gratify your need of "Lannister great"?? Lol.....

[Orm]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There are no Baratheon names as such considering that Orys is the founder of the house and his father a Targaryen lord. The point was that the Baratheons don't use Durrandon names and we can thus not say they view themselves as Durrandons or try to continue that tradition.

They literally have the same sigil, the same words, the same colours, the same honours and the same blood......

Orys himself didn't want to distance his hijacked house from their culture. Rather he adopted everything of them when he didn't have to. Marrying Argella and having kids with her would be enough for his legitimacy. But he goes the extra mile and indulges himself,his sons and grandsons with all the Durrandon stuff but the Name....

So what is your point? House Durrandon given the importance of Targ blood due to Aegon I has even more prestige in their renamed house......

[Orm]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be sure - if there is something 'magical' in the Durrandon blood it would have nothing to do with Durran and everything with Elenei who was supposedly a divine magical creature. She could have given her children special traits, not the founder of the house who was just a man.

Obviously, she is the goddess,the matriarch of house Durrandon/Baratheon

She is the most likely candidate for the progenitor of the black hair blue eyes super dominant trait.....

Now Durran Godsgrief is special too, since he managed to fend the off the storm gods themselves for Elenei.....

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Argilac didn't have the queer notions of Renly, and aside from Ronard the Bastard no Durrandon seems to have tried to usurp the place of his brothers or nephews - unlike Borys Baratheon, Renly and Stannis Baratheon, pull shit like Maris or Cassandra Baratheon, etc.

So what? She was the Storm Queen now.

Well, there you are arguing against the books as such. Renly and Olenna seem to believe the Baratheons do have enough Targaryen blood for it to be significant. Nobody ever bothers anyone with their Estermont blood.

And to be sure - if there is something 'magical' in the Durrandon blood it would have nothing to do with Durran and everything with Elenei who was supposedly a divine magical creature. She could have given her children special traits, not the founder of the house who was just a man.

But stubbornness is a trait also present in Orys Baratheon, no?

And you think the descendants of Lord Lancel Lannister of Darry or Lord Ramsay Bolton of Winterfell would also view themselves as Darrys/Starks further down the road?

Because they are Targaryen descendants. This whole thing is about the fact that without their Targaryen blood the Baratheons are the poorest and weakest great lords on the mainland - which is why it was problematic that Robert did not emulate the Targaryens more.

I'm talking about the time this wasn't the case.

Can you give a description of Argella Durrandon from George R. R. Martin?

The only connection there is theft. Theft of the sigil, theft of the castle, theft of the last Storm Queen. They are usurpers and thieves who solidified their rule by forcing the rightful ruler to marry the thief.

1) Friend, it’s time to explain. What “queer notions” are you talking about? Be very specific, because I’ve already explained how Argilac was similar.

2) It’s heavily implied that Euron killed Balon and usurped Theon and Asha. Ronnet Arryn was usurped by his brother, Jonos the kinslayer. Are they Targaryens too? That’s not a Baratheon trait.

3) So the war was over and she kept fighting. Her own people turned her over to Orys naked and in chains.

4) No. Renly is very dismissive of their Targaryen connections and as I’ve already proven, Olena recognizes their Durrandon connection. You’re objectively wrong here.

5) When did I say that the magic would come from a Durran and not his wife?

6) Yes, Orys was stubborn too. Just like most Baratheon/Durrandons.

7) No, because these castles are being explicitly replaced with different Houses. It’s not as if they’re keeping the sigils, words and all the rest of it like the Baratheons/Durrandons.

8) Are they the poorest and weakest mainland Great House? Before the Rebellion, you can make a strong argument that Dorne was weaker. After the Rebellion, the only House that was clearly stronger than them were the Tyrells and the Lannisters were in the same general tier. All together they should have had about as many soldiers as the Vale, the North or the a Riverlands and the 2 strongest fleet in Westeros along with three Great Castles being ruled by direct relatives of the Heads of House Baratheon (Kings Landing, Storms End and Dragonstone).

9) Olena ranked the Baratheons above the Tyrells specifically, because 9f their Durrandon connection. Not because they were the current ruling family.

10) They’re actuall descendants of the last Durrandon heir by blood.

[broken one]

On 8/4/2020 at 7:26 PM, Lord Varys said:

We know there was a Ser Tommard Heddle once, husband to the eldest daughter of Lord Butterwell, but we don't know whether he came from a knightly family or not. A single knight doesn't make a knightly family.

Even more so, landed knights must have distant cousins and such who do have their name but lack lands and wealth and titles.

My personal guess for Orys' legal father would be that he was Lord Aerion's steward on Dragonstone, or perhaps a tutor for the children. That would make him important enough to be honored by both Lord Aerion himself and his children afterwards.

And what about two knights? https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Heddle#cite_note-Raffc37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-1

one gets surname while knighted. one's distant cousins do not get the name, only descendants may inherit it. I think this is what "nobility"in  westeros ia about. there are also darkes or darklyns and crabbs, who are in fact commoners but pride themselves on noble ancestors and it is somehow tolerated. I guess the same is with heddles.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, broken one said:

And what about two knights? https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Heddle#cite_note-Raffc37.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D-1

one gets surname while knighted. one's distant cousins do not get the name, only descendants may inherit it. I think this is what "nobility"in  westeros ia about. there are also darkes or darklyns and crabbs, who are in fact commoners but pride themselves on noble ancestors and it is somehow tolerated. I guess the same is with heddles.

The point is that we cannot really says family names are only allowed to nobility or their distant cousins. That has never been established as such. Even less so on Dragonstone before the Conquest where Valyrian commoners would have lived side by side with their Targaryen overlords. Baratheon can be a Valyrian family name for all we know.

The non-noble kin of the Darklyns in Duskendale also show that commoners can have family names.

[sweetsunray]

On 8/7/2020 at 5:55 PM, Orm said:

Wait, purple eyed people can have blue eyed children?...... Ahh..... ASOIAF genetics makes no sense.......

You misinterprete the genetic cause of purple and blue eyes (and green eyes for that matter). There's no blue or purple colored melanin causing the eye color. The irises are in fact translucent for both. We see eyes as being blue for the same reason we see an ocean of water as blue (but if you take a bucket of water out of the ocean it looks clear): diffraction and refraction of light entering.

So, blue and purple eyes have translucent irises, but as light drops into the iris, the white light is diffracted into the different wavelengths that make us see color. Most of those wavelengths continue to travel deeper into the iris and are absorbed by the double layered black screen behind the iris (and you normally only see the pupil). Because of the cell structure of the iris, blue light is not absorbed, but reflected back out of the iris.

It's basically an "illusion" you're seeing. This is different from amber and brown eyes, or hazel eyes. These people do have melanin in their irises, which has either a brown or yellow color, depending on the gene. Some people only have melanin around the pupil, but not the rest of the iris, which creates the hazel eye effect. Green eyes are also the result of partial melanin and clear parts of the iris. 

Anyway, because of the "illusion" effect with blue eyes, and refracted light is very influential to surrounding refracted light caused by pigments, blue eyes are so prone to shift in tone, depth and color of blue, and may even appear violet.

So, yes, purple eyed people can have blue eyed children. Just a small shift in cell size of the irises can cause a narrower or broader spectrum of diffracted light to be reflected back.

[Orm]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You misinterprete the genetic cause of purple and blue eyes (and green eyes for that matter). There's no blue or purple colored melanin causing the eye color. The irises are in fact translucent for both. We see eyes as being blue for the same reason we see an ocean of water as blue (but if you take a bucket of water out of the ocean it looks clear): diffraction and refraction of light entering.

So, blue and purple eyes have translucent irises, but as light drops into the iris, the white light is diffracted into the different wavelengths that make us see color. Most of those wavelengths continue to travel deeper into the iris and are absorbed by the double layered black screen behind the iris (and you normally only see the pupil). Because of the cell structure of the iris, blue light is not absorbed, but reflected back out of the iris.

It's basically an "illusion" you're seeing. This is different from amber and brown eyes, or hazel eyes. These people do have melanin in their irises, which has either a brown or yellow color, depending on the gene. Some people only have melanin around the pupil, but not the rest of the iris, which creates the hazel eye effect. Green eyes are also the result of partial melanin and clear parts of the iris. 

Anyway, because of the "illusion" effect with blue eyes, and refracted light is very influential to surrounding refracted light caused by pigments, blue eyes are so prone to shift in tone, depth and color of blue, and may even appear violet.

So, yes, purple eyed people can have blue eyed children. Just a small shift in cell size of the irises can cause a narrower or broader spectrum of diffracted light to be reflected back.

Well thanks for the info on melanin and eye colours......

But the Baratheon blue eyes seems to act like a dominant gene rather than a recessive as it should be in the real world.... And as the idea was suggested it might be a Valyrian trait..... It is odd that nobody in the the story ever mentions it to be Valyrian like even remotely......

[Orm]

On 8/8/2020 at 7:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

He did take care to use many of the Stark names or variations of them in the history of House Stark as well as the family tree, just as he took care to do that for the Lannisters, both in TWoIaF as well a

 

On 8/8/2020 at 7:07 PM, Lord Varys said:

) There are 21 Alyns. There are 13 Alys’. There are 4 Ormunds and two of them are Durrandon/Baratheon. That means half. Again, I can also point to all of the many other connections between the Durrandons and the Baratheons.

Hey, just realised that Boremund is a variation of Ormund and only seen in the Baratheon family tree.....(seems like it got left out)

So 3 of 5.... And Rogar, Robert seems to be a variation on Ronard

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, Orm said:

Well thanks for the info on melanin and eye colours......

But the Baratheon blue eyes seems to act like a dominant gene rather than a recessive as it should be in the real world.... And as the idea was suggested it might be a Valyrian trait..... It is odd that nobody in the the story ever mentions it to be Valyrian like even remotely......

You just show your own ignorance there - Valyrian eyes are blueish and purplish, not just purplish.

And to be sure - the only thing the twincest research team gave a rat's ass about was the Baratheon black hair. Not the eyes. There is no indication any Baratheons but the ones who are confirmed to have blue eyes had blue eyes. Jocelyn Baratheon, for instance, may have inherited her mother Alyssa's purple eyes considering she is described as having 'large dark eyes'.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Hey, just realised that Boremund is a variation of Ormund and only seen in the Baratheon family tree.....(seems like it got left out)

So 3 of 5.... And Rogar, Robert seems to be a variation on Ronard

Boremund might be the reason why a later Baratheon was named Ormund - but then, even the author cares so little about the Baratheon names that he failed to pick the correct name in the manuscript when he had Lady Elenda name Borros' son after her own father, Lord Royce Caron.

He invested much more time in the Lannister, Stark, and Gardener names.

There is a similarity between Ronard the Bastard and Robert Baratheon - both usurped the throne, fathered many bastards, etc. But that seems to be more a funny little parallel than something Steffon Baratheon thought about when he named his firstborn son Robert since we cannot imagine he wanted Robert to be a usurper nor fathering an army of bastards.

[Orm]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You just show your own ignorance there -

Heh.... Less than you since I don't openly discredit the text....

 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Valyrian eyes are blueish and purplish, not just purplish.

Yet, Baratheon blue eyes is termed as a classical trait in the family..... And nobody remotely mentions it to be Valyrian....

If you can show me quotes saying otherwise, I will take this back.....

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jocelyn Baratheon, for instance, may have inherited her mother Alyssa's purple eyes considering she is described as having 'large dark eyes'.

It is weird that her eyes are mentioned as such.... Since her dad has blue eyes and mum has Lilac eyes..... What does it mean by large dark eyes?

 

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Boremund might be the reason why a later Baratheon was named Ormund - but then, even the author cares so little about the Baratheon names that he failed to pick the correct name in the manuscript when he had Lady Elenda name Borros' son after her own father, Lord Royce Caron.

You do realise George could easily have not given Argilac explicitly famous black hair and all the other stuff of house Baratheon not of house Durrandon at all right? He could have easily made the words, sigil, Honors and colours of house Baratheon original right?

He doesn't focus on Baratheon/Durrandon names.... That's your best argument of why Baratheons are not renamed Durrandons?

It's odd that we don't know the name of Orys's and Argella's son who is the dad of Rogar and his brothers.....

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He invested much more time in the Lannister, Stark

I do know an interview where he said the Starks have a Brandon in most their generations and the Lannisters have lots Ty's in their family tree.....

That being said since his story primarily centers around the conflict between Starks and Lannisters.. obviously he's gonna focus on them and their lore....

The Gardeners literally have no influence in the story besides to down play the legacy of Tyrells...