Lord Varys Posted August 10, 2020 Share Posted August 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Orm said: Yet, Baratheon blue eyes is termed as a classical trait in the family..... And nobody remotely mentions it to be Valyrian.... The Baratheons are Valyrians since they are descended from Lord Aerion Targaryen. Where the hell do you get this notion that blue eyes are 'a classical trait in [the Baratheon] family'? The author isn't clear whether Renly's eyes were green or blue, and while there are some Baratheons with blue eyes, there are also some with dark/black eyes (Orys and Jocelyn). 16 minutes ago, Orm said: It is weird that her eyes are mentioned as such.... Since her dad has blue eyes and mum has Lilac eyes..... What does it mean by large dark eyes? How should I know? I just offered the possibility that she may have had her mother's eyes - and Alyssa is described in FaB as having 'the deep purple eyes and the silvery hair of Old Valyria'. And George occasionally describes deep purple as so dark that they almost look black. But to be sure - Jocelyn could have had dark eyes that resemble neither her father's blue eyes nor her mother's purple eyes. 16 minutes ago, Orm said: You do realise George could easily have not given Argilac explicitly famous black hair and all the other stuff of house Baratheon not of house Durrandon at all right? He could have easily made the words, sigil, Honors and colours of house Baratheon original right? Well, the former is clear ... but you also know what? George could also have given Orys Baratheon silver-gold hair and purple eyes as befitting a man rumored to be a Targaryen bastard. If that had been the case, and if Argella had been confirmed to be black-haired and blue-eyed then we could make a case that the Durrandon seed was strong and overtook the Valyrian looks of Orys Baratheon, making (presumably) all Baratheons between Orys and Robert black-haired and blue-eyed. But that ain't the case, is it? 16 minutes ago, Orm said: He doesn't focus on Baratheon/Durrandon names.... That's your best argument of why Baratheons are not renamed Durrandons? No, it is an argument that the Baratheons don't care about presenting themselves as a continuation of House Durrandon. Orys stole their last scion, their lands, their castle, their sigil, and their words. They have been supplanted by a new dynasty - House Baratheon. And it is not clear whether the Baratheon looks are Baratheon or Durrandon looks since both - Orys and Argilac - were black-haired, and nobody knows how Argella Durrandon looked like. Nor do we have any idea how any Durrandon but Argilac looked like. Your claim that they all must have looked that way is just preposterous. Without any textual support it is just a wish in your mind, nothing you could actually point to in the books as published. 16 minutes ago, Orm said: It's odd that we don't know the name of Orys's and Argella's son who is the dad of Rogar and his brothers..... We know the name of one son of Orys Baratheon, Davos, and one can assume the guy was the father in question since King Aenys rewarded him after the Vulture King campaign - which he may not have done if the guy wasn't the new Lord of Storm's End. Nor does it make particular sense to assume Orys' successor as Lord of Storm's End didn't participate in Orys' last campaign (although it might be possible for some reason). 16 minutes ago, Orm said: I do know an interview where he said the Starks have a Brandon in most their generations and the Lannisters have lots Ty's in their family tree..... It is not just that - just look at the trees and the names from TWoIaF. There are recurring names and variations of recurring names. We learned that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella are all royal Lannister names. We learned that Tyrion is a royal Lannister name (of ill repute). We learned that Cersei is a variation of a Lannister royal (Cerion). Similarly, we learned how many Aryas and Sansa and variations of those names are common among the Starks of Winterfell. 16 minutes ago, Orm said: The Gardeners literally have no influence in the story besides to down play the legacy of Tyrells... But they, too, get their royal names they use again and again. The Durrandons also have that to a point - you can see a shift between First Name and Andal names, as well as a decline in Durrans as the years advance. But there is a clear break between Durrandon and Baratheon names. And we do know quite a few of the latter now, considering FaB covered quite a few Baratheons. There is a blank space between the Dance and the Dunk and Egg era, but starting with Lyonel things are pretty complete. I'd be surprised if we got any Durrans, Argilacs, Arrecs, Arlans, etc. in that era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted August 10, 2020 Author Share Posted August 10, 2020 27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: George could also have given Orys Baratheon silver-gold hair and purple eyes as befitting a man rumored to be a Targaryen bastard I assumed he did that to leave the whole half-brother thing ambiguous.... But I came to understand Orys is quite Durrandon-like himself.....Similar to Argilac and Argella.. Especially after his maiming.... 32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: If that had been the case, and if Argella had been confirmed to be black-haired and blue-eyed then we could make a case that the Durrandon seed was strong and overtook the Valyrian looks of Orys Baratheon, making (presumably) all Baratheons between Orys and Robert black-haired and blue-eyed Just going to ask.... Do we have a description of Loren Lannister or Torrhen Stark?......hair colour, eye colour, anything? But George makes sure to mention Argilac's greying hair of all things... I wonder why? 35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Orys stole their last scion, their lands, their castle, their sigil, and their words And ,Who did that serve more actually? Orys or the defeated Durrandons? You keep insisting like it was an insult to the Durrandon line that Orys did what he did... Why? We have it explicitly stated that he did it to honour Argilac and his house...... And the people of the time accepted it as a very chivalrous thing to do..... If Orys or his sons really didn't think of themselves as Durrandons then why not change that? Why march on the Stag banner? Why say the words 'Ours is the fury'? Why do Durrandon stuff? Why live on their symbol? Why even marry Argella who was brought to him as soiled goods? They certainly could change all of that........ But they didn't...... And you still keep insisting that they were distancing themselves from their blood predecessors.... If anything Robert tried to distance himself from his Targ connections after the rebellion... Although half-assed and lazily as he does most literary or symbolic things..... Probably Didn't even bother to name his "children"..... 47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: But there is a clear break between Durrandon and Baratheon names Yes, there is..... The break being submission/admission to the Targ rule and attainment of the bloodline through rebranding and blood-ties later on..... Which all changed after the Rebellion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted August 11, 2020 Author Share Posted August 11, 2020 18 hours ago, Lord Varys said: Where the hell do you get this notion that blue eyes are 'a classical trait in [the Baratheon] family' Well, in AWOIAF I went to the Rogar Baratheon page, There I read and I quote, "Rogar had the typical blue eyes and black hair of House Baratheon"...... So I am wrong in assuming that's the classical Baratheon/Durrandon look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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