Orys: who was that guy actually?

[Orm]

10 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

In TWOIAF he's described as black eyed.

Wait isn't it confirmed that the current Baratheon pheno-type is the Durrandon pheno-type?

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, The Hoare said:

6 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

blue eyed

In TWOIAF he's described as black eyed

Dont even start on that. The number of errors in both the World book and F&B are too numerous to list

EDIT

Just saw @Ran's post and understood that it was not an error (it was, on my part) in the books

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

Wait isn't it confirmed that the current Baratheon pheno-type is the Durrandon pheno-type?

Orys Baratheon was not a Durrandon.

"Black-eyed, black haired" was from GRRM's own contribution to that chapter. I'm guessing we're to take it that the blue eyes are from Argella.

[Orm]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Orys Baratheon was not a Durrandon.

Where did I say he was?

 

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Black-eyed, black haired" was from GRRM's own contribution to that chapter. I'm guessing we're to take it that the blue eyes are from Argella.

Except, Argilac's hair is described as " His famous mane of Black hair has turned grey and prowess at arms had faded with it"....

Even the black hair of the Baratheons is a Durrandon trait..... 

And I am asking again is the Baratheon look(Robert, Renly, Stannis etc) not the Durrandon look(Argilac, Argella etc)???

[Ran]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

 

And I am asking again is the Baratheon look(Robert, Renly, Stannis etc) not the Durrandon look(Argilac, Argella etc)???

The black hair came from both sides. The blue eyes appears to be from the Durrandons.

[Orm]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

The black hair came from both sides. The blue eyes appears to be from the Durrandons.

Ah ha..... I stand correct.....

The Baratheon phenotype is essentially the Durrandon phenotype....

Can you confirm this with the author, King Ran?

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

blue eyed

We have many instances of Targs having non-valyrian looks. Example; Daeron the Drunk, Jon (if RLJ true) etc. No others come to my mind right now. They take after their mothers. So we can go that maternal way to determine origins.

Orys took the name for his new house IIRC. it was a new name.

When they came ashore at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush to begin their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, with them came a black-eyed, black-haired bastard named Orys Baratheon.

- TWOIAF: The Stormlands

I have half-jokingly speculated that Orys's mother was a Durrandon or Durrandon descendant, since GRRM revealed that Orys himself had black hair. But I'm sure it's not that complicated, and not all black haired people are descendants of Durrandons. Whatever the case, Orys, Argilac, and Argella all had black hair. Not sure whether all had the typical thick black hair that is synonymous with Baratheons and Baratheon descendants in ASOIAF.

The origins or antiquity of the Baratheon surname haven't been revealed, and there's no indication that Orys adopted or was given a new surname at any point in his life.

[Bael's Bastard]

9 hours ago, The Hoare said:

I think GRRM went with the rule of cool when creating names. Baratheon is similar to Bar Emmon, which is a andal house too, besides "Theon" is a common westerosi name

The Baratheon name can be dissected a number of ways, but we have no clue whether the "Bar" in Bar Emmon or the name "Theon" have any etymological relation to any of the elements in the name in Baratheon.

IMO, the simplest explanation for the phonetic similarity between Baratheon and Valyrian names is that Baratheon is a Valyrian name. Orys was born on a Dragonstone that had been ruled exclusively by Targaryens for a century and Valyrians for centuries.

The Targaryens presumable brought other Valyrians of lower status with them to Dragonstone, trusted soldiers, guards, master at arms, stewards, smiths, etc. I suspect a Baratheon was among them.

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Ah ha..... I stand correct.....

The Baratheon phenotype is essentially the Durrandon phenotype....

Can you confirm this with the author, King Ran?

As far as I can tell, descriptions of Orys, Argilac, and Argella only describe the black color of all their hair (obviously not all black colored hair is alike), but not other features that stick out among modern Baratheons, like the thickness or texture. So it isn't clear which of the aspects of modern Baratheon hair come from Orys or from Argella, or whether both were already essentially identical.

[Frey family reunion]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Orys Baratheon was not a Durrandon.

"Black-eyed, black haired" was from GRRM's own contribution to that chapter. I'm guessing we're to take it that the blue eyes are from Argella.

Isn't it possible that the blue eyes were inherited from their Targaryen ancestry?  The historical records studied by Ned only seemed to give hair descriptions of the Baratheon/Lannister combos not eye descriptions.  

[Orm]

5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As far as I can tell, descriptions of Orys, Argilac, and Argella only describe the black color of all their hair (obviously not all black colored hair is alike), but not other features that stick out among modern Baratheons, like the thickness or texture. So it isn't clear which of the aspects of modern Baratheon hair come from Orys or from Argella, or whether both were already essentially identical.

 

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Isn't it possible that the blue eyes were inherited from their Targaryen ancestry?  The historical records studied by Ned only seemed to give hair descriptions of the Baratheon/Lannister combos not eye descriptions.  

Well we know from FB, that as early as Rogar Baratheon(Orys's and Argella's grandson) had black hair and blue eyes........ And is essentially described quite same as Bobby B....

Please, FFR explain to me how Orys's black eyes(granted might be dark lilac) translates into clear blue eyes?... In what world, lilac purple=lake blue?

I am pretty certain that Argella made sure her sons, married her Durrandon cousins/neices.... 2nd , 3rd or 4th cousin we don't know.....

Which would make Rogar more Durrandon in blood than Targaryen...

So I am assuming he's exhibiting the Durrandon phenotype....

And BB, Argilac's hair is described as a mane..... I remember that Robert's and Renly's hair was also described as being manes... Unfortunately Stan the man has a reclining hairline...

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Orm said:

Please, FFR explain to me how Orys's black eyes(granted might be dark lilac) translates into clear blue eyes?... In what world, lilac purple=lake blue?

Targaryen's eye color were typically violet or blue.  For example, Alysanne Targaryen had blue eyes, not purple or violet or lilac. 

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Whatever the case, Orys, Argilac, and Argella all had black hair. Not sure whether all had the typical thick black hair that is synonymous with Baratheons and Baratheon descendants in ASOIAF.

Can you give us a quote where Argella's hair color is given? I don't recall ever reading a physical description of her.

I mean, with her father having black hair there is some plausibility for to imagine her as black-haired, but without a description we don't actually know.

And to be sure, what we learn about Malleon's book only indicates that the Baratheon black hair was passed on to their children; there is no mentioning of how things stood with the Storm Kings of old.

Argilac's black hair could be representative of his bloodline ... or not. We don't know, since he is the only Durrandon we have a physical description for.

But I have to point out that George would pretty much jump the shark if he ever tried to establish that all Durrandon descendants inherit the black hair - because after thousands of years of Durrandon reign in the Stormlands the many children of Ronard the Bastard alone would have made all the Stormlanders black-haired, not to mention all the Durrandon daughters marrying into the noble houses of the Stormlands, and their descendants then eventually into all of Westerosi nobility from Dorne to the Wall.

And there is also a crack there with Princess Rhaenys not passing her black hair to either of her children, nor it eventually popping up in the Velaryon main line continued by Alyn and Baela.

There is also no indication that most/many Stormlanders are dark-haired. The Conningtons even seem to have preserved the red hair they seem to be famous for from the days of Red Roy Connington to the days of Jon Connington and Red Ronnet Connington.

Also, Brienne of Tarth doesn't have black hair, never mind that the Tarths are confirmed to have both a Durrandon and a Baratheon ancestry.

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Orys Baratheon was not a Durrandon.

"Black-eyed, black haired" was from GRRM's own contribution to that chapter. I'm guessing we're to take it that the blue eyes are from Argella.

I don't think we have to go with that as such - blue eyes fit the Valyrian spectrum. King Aenys and Queen Alyssa had purple/violet eyes, yet Jaehaerys and Alysanne are blue eyed, while many of their children were purple eyed and had a large variety of different hair colors. Vice versa, Prince Aemon had eyes 'as pale as lilac' (whatever exactly that means) which she seems to have passed on to Rhaenys but Jocelyn Baratheon didn't have blue eyes, either, but is instead described as having 'large dark eyes and black hair'. Those dark eyes also could but don't have to indicate Valyrian purple eyes - which she could have inherited from her mother Alyssa (as could Jocelyn's brother Boremund, whose eye color we do not know).

I'd not be surprised if it turned out that Steffon Baratheon didn't have blue eyes but rather purple eyes - assuming his mother, Princess Rhaelle, turns out to have Valyrian features and not to resemble her mother, Queen Betha.

In any case, the characteristic Baratheon trait is the black hair, not the blue eyes. We don't even know for certain that Renly had blue eyes. Could have been blue-green eyes, after all. I don't think we should read that eye color issue there as a mistake, rather another sign how clothes and armor can have an effect how eye color is perceived - like George intentionally does with the second Daemon Blackfyre (first blue eyes, then purple eyes) and Prince Aegon which seem different depending on the light conditions and whose eyes might just look more blueish than purplish right now due to the fact that his hair is still dyed blue.

[Orm]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Targaryen's eye color were typically violet or blue.  For example, Alysanne Targaryen had blue eyes, not purple or violet or lilac. 

Wait, purple eyed people can have blue eyed children?...... Ahh..... ASOIAF genetics makes no sense.......

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But I have to point out that George would pretty much jump the shark if he ever tried to establish that all Durrandon descendants inherit the black hair - because after thousands of years of Durrandon reign in the Stormlands the many children of Ronard the Bastard alone would have made all the Stormlanders black-haired, not to mention all the Durrandon daughters marrying into the noble houses of the Stormlands, and their descendants then eventually into all of Westerosi nobility from Dorne to the Wall.

And there is also a crack there with Princess Rhaenys not passing her black hair to either of her children, nor it eventually popping up in the Velaryon main line continued by Alyn and Baela.

I think you just kind of have to accept that genetics in ASOIAF don't really make any sense. As you've pointed out, George has already established that not every Baratheon descendant gets the black hair. And assuming Aerion is Orys's father, it doesn't really make sense to explain it as a trait passed through the paternal line since it had to originate from either Orys's mother or his wife.

[Lee-Sensei]

15 hours ago, Orm said:

Wait isn't it confirmed that the current Baratheon pheno-type is the Durrandon pheno-type?

It is, but Orys has black eyes. They probably got their blue eyes from Argella. Aside from his eye color, Orys looked like a typical Durrandon. Tall, muscular, strong jawed and black haired. He acted like one too after he lost his hand.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think you just kind of have to accept that genetics in ASOIAF don't really make any sense. As you've pointed out, George has already established that not every Baratheon descendant gets the black hair. And assuming Aerion is Orys's father, it doesn't really make sense to explain it as a trait passed through the paternal line since it had to originate from either Orys's mother or his wife.

Well, to be sure, just because Malleon listed a bunch of Baratheon marriages and described them doesn't mean it was ever some natural law that all Baratheon offspring have to turn out black-haired.

The whole thing was a crutch or pretext in the twincest case Stannis and Jon were trying to build, not some deep truth.

If Orys Baratheon unknown mother was black-haired - which we can assume considering that Aerion Targaryen most likely didn't have black hair - then this trait could certainly have come from her rather than the Durrandons of old, not to mention that the Baratheons between Orys and Robert could have married quite a few dark-haired women over the centuries, reinforcing that trait.

44 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It is, but Orys has black eyes. They probably got their blue eyes from Argella. Aside from his eye color, Orys looked like a typical Durrandon. Tall, muscular, strong jawed and black haired. He acted like one too after he lost his hand.

I don't see that at all. The Durrandons of recorded history don't really show those belligerent traits the Baratheons are famed for ... and Olenna Redwyne blames the Targaryen blood in the Baratheons for their queer notions, not their Storm King ancestry.

There is something of Robert in Ronard the Bastard, to be sure, but there are quite a few rather pitiful Durrandon kings, men like Durwald I and Morden II, and so far we haven't many any Baratheons who weren't martial men (even their women are quarrelsome, stubborn, and can be quite nasty if you think of Cassandra and Maris).

It is also rather striking how the Baratheons didn't choose any Durrandon names for their children. There aren't any Durrans, Arlans, Argilacs, etc. among them - unlike with the continuity of names one can see with the Lannisters and Starks in the history.

The Baratheons did see themselves as a new dynasty, founded by Orys Baratheon. They did inherit some Durrandon blood from Argella, but so what? That was convenient, not crucial.

[Lee-Sensei]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be sure, just because Malleon listed a bunch of Baratheon marriages and described them doesn't mean it was ever some natural law that all Baratheon offspring have to turn out black-haired.

The whole thing was a crutch or pretext in the twincest case Stannis and Jon were trying to build, not some deep truth.

If Orys Baratheon unknown mother was black-haired - which we can assume considering that Aerion Targaryen most likely didn't have black hair - then this trait could certainly have come from her rather than the Durrandons of old, not to mention that the Baratheons between Orys and Robert could have married quite a few dark-haired women over the centuries, reinforcing that trait.

I don't see that at all. The Durrandons of recorded history don't really show those belligerent traits the Baratheons are famed for ... and Olenna Redwyne blames the Targaryen blood in the Baratheons for their queer notions, not their Storm King ancestry.

There is something of Robert in Ronard the Bastard, to be sure, but there are quite a few rather pitiful Durrandon kings, men like Durwald I and Morden II, and so far we haven't many any Baratheons who weren't martial men (even their women are quarrelsome, stubborn, and can be quite nasty if you think of Cassandra and Maris).

It is also rather striking how the Baratheons didn't choose any Durrandon names for their children. There aren't any Durrans, Arlans, Argilacs, etc. among them - unlike with the continuity of names one can see with the Lannisters and Starks in the history.

The Baratheons did see themselves as a new dynasty, founded by Orys Baratheon. They did inherit some Durrandon blood from Argella, but so what? That was convenient, not crucial.

1) What notions? Their arrogance or their belligerence? Argilac had both and to an extent, so did Argella.

2) Olena is probably a bit bitter about being rejected by a Targaryen, but for what it’s worth, she recognizes that Baratheons as being basically a continuation of House Durrandon in that same conversation with Sansa.

3) Of course, not all Baratheons are going to fit the mould, but go back to Durran Godsgrief. His most notable trait was his determination. He constantly rebuilt his castle after the Storm God destroyed it, until the castle wouldn’t fall (with Bran the Builders help).

4) We don’t know all of the Baratheons or Durrandons of course, but for what it’s worth, they did reuse Ormund.

5) Keep in mind that the Tyrells and most Houses can trace their families back to royalty, because they intermarried so often. She singled out the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns and Baratheons, because she recognizes them as essentially being a continuation of the Durrandons.

“She might think we have some wits about us. One of us, at any rate.” The old woman turned back to Sansa. “It’s treason, I warned them, Robert has two sons, and Renly has an older brother, how can he possibly have any claim to that ugly iron chair? Tut-tut, says my son, don’t you want your sweetling to be queen? You Starks were kings once, the Arryns and the Lannisters as well, and even the Baratheons through the female line, but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire. If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. ‘What does it matter?’ you ask, and of course it doesn’t, except to oafs like my son. The thought that one day he may see his grandson with his arse on the Iron Throne makes Mace puff up like . . . now, what do you call it? Margaery, you’re clever, be a dear and tell your poor old half-daft grandmother the name of that queer fish from the Summer Isles 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be sure, just because Malleon listed a bunch of Baratheon marriages and described them doesn't mean it was ever some natural law that all Baratheon offspring have to turn out black-haired.

The whole thing was a crutch or pretext in the twincest case Stannis and Jon were trying to build, not some deep truth.

If Orys Baratheon unknown mother was black-haired - which we can assume considering that Aerion Targaryen most likely didn't have black hair - then this trait could certainly have come from her rather than the Durrandons of old, not to mention that the Baratheons between Orys and Robert could have married quite a few dark-haired women over the centuries, reinforcing that trait.

Sure, I'm just saying in general the genetics in the story aren't thought out all that well. And the persistence of certain traits identified with specific houses across thousands of years of intermarriage between Westerosi nobility (not to mention all the bastards and their descendants in that timeframe) isn't very realistic. I'm not saying this bothers me much, it's a fantasy story and it's not something that's going to ruin it for me by any means.

[Orm]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

is also rather striking how the Baratheons didn't choose any Durrandon names for their children. There aren't any Durrans, Arlans, Argilacs, etc. among them - unlike with the continuity of names one can see with the Lannisters and Starks in the history.

When Lyonel declared his rebellion and Secession from the irone-throne he took the title of Storm king (This is the title of Durrandon Storm kings of old)......

Also, he named his son and heir Ormund..this is a name Durrandons used multiple times.....