Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Targknight

Batman & Plagiarism

Recommended Posts

READ OP!

I did my research. Batman unlike the Witcher is plagiarized. I’m not joking. The modern Batman isn’t plagiarized. I’m talking about the original Batman. Bill Finger stole a character known as Black Bat, and plagiarized  a story known as The Partners Of Peril. Bill Finger wasn’t a good guy. He threatened to sue Black Bat writer for plagiarism. Despite Black Bat predating Batman. Not to mention Bob Kane traced artwork.

Here are the sources:

Batman Plagiarism

Bill Finger Plagiarism

https://theshadowstrikes.tumblr.com/post/149994662497/rip-offs-and-homages-to-the-shadow/amp

https://theshadowstrikes.tumblr.com/tagged/Bill Finger

judge of yourselves. It is plagiarism. Their is very little differences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's very debatable, that one, and I think DC's editors worked out a deal where no one sued. It's worth noting that in the pulp era, people were constantly riffing on characters other people created.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I make it a rule to not follow links to youtube, but I find it fascinating that you do an "oh, yeah, and Bob Kane traced artwork" like the fact that Finger didn't get recognition for any of his efforts until 15 years after he died and even then, both he and Kane concur that the initial concept of the character came from Kane was irrelevant.

Also worth noting that Finger flat out acknowledges numerous of his points of inspritation - Zorro, the Phantom, the Scarlet Pimpernel, the Shadow and Sherlock Holmes.

Also curious why you'd go this direction and argue based on name, rather than look at the greater similarity to Daredevil, or the fact that Black Bat was equally derivative of both the Spider and the Phantom.  

Edited by hauberk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ran said:

I think it's very debatable, that one, and I think DC's editors worked out a deal where no one sued. It's worth noting that in the pulp era, people were constantly riffing on characters other people created.

The first Batman issue was plagiarized from Partners Of Peril. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, hauberk said:

I make it a rule to not follow links to youtube, but I find it fascinating that you do an "oh, yeah, and Bob Kane traced artwork" like the fact that Finger didn't get recognition for any of his efforts until 15 years after he died and even then, both he and Kane concur that the initial concept of the character came from Kane was irrelevant.

Also worth noting that Finger flat out acknowledges numerous of his points of inspritation - Zorro, the Phantom, the Scarlet Pimpernel, the Shadow and Sherlock Holmes.

Also curious why you'd go this direction and argue based on name, rather than look at the greater similarity to Daredevil, or the fact that Black Bat was equally derivative of both the Spider and the Phantom.  

Bob Kane did trace images. This is why he wasn’t recognized.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/8d/8d/918d8d0f7f594a06e0a6ec08386e0073.jpg

Bill Finger did plagiarize Partners Of Peril. 

http://ozandends.blogspot.com/2008/01/recent-accomplishments-in-batman.html?m=1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, hauberk said:

I make it a rule to not follow links to youtube, but I find it fascinating that you do an "oh, yeah, and Bob Kane traced artwork" like the fact that Finger didn't get recognition for any of his efforts until 15 years after he died and even then, both he and Kane concur that the initial concept of the character came from Kane was irrelevant.

Also worth noting that Finger flat out acknowledges numerous of his points of inspritation - Zorro, the Phantom, the Scarlet Pimpernel, the Shadow and Sherlock Holmes.

Also curious why you'd go this direction and argue based on name, rather than look at the greater similarity to Daredevil, or the fact that Black Bat was equally derivative of both the Spider and the Phantom.  

More similarities, but the blog is in Spanish.

https://www.comiqueando.com.ar/secciones/los-casos-del-inspector-mccurro/bati-mentiras-parte-2/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BloodyJollyRoger said:

Bob Kane did trace images. This is why he wasn’t recognized.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/8d/8d/918d8d0f7f594a06e0a6ec08386e0073.jpg

Bill Finger did plagiarize Partners Of Peril. 

http://ozandends.blogspot.com/2008/01/recent-accomplishments-in-batman.html?m=1

First, I really don't feel like debating someone that drops a one or two liner and then cross links to someone else's work.  Repeatedly.  At best, that reads as intellectually lazy.  

I also find it incredibly, almost painfully ironic that you continue to place the blame firmly at the feet of Finger who pretty clearly acknowledged that he borrowed liberally from a great many sources, including the Shadow, during a time when everyone was copying what was successful (see DC v Fawcett (Superman - Captain Marvel)  among others)

Bob Kane did a damned site more than just trace Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon.  His perfidy goes way, way deeper than what a good portion of beloved (and otherwise) modern artists do with reference (see Ditko, Liefeld, McFarlane, Liefeld, Mack, Liefeld, Kirby and Liefeld among many).  Denying Finger any creative credit for Batman, the Joker and many others if a far bigger issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hauberk said:

First, I really don't feel like debating someone that drops a one or two liner and then cross links to someone else's work.  Repeatedly.  At best, that reads as intellectually lazy.  

I also find it incredibly, almost painfully ironic that you continue to place the blame firmly at the feet of Finger who pretty clearly acknowledged that he borrowed liberally from a great many sources, including the Shadow, during a time when everyone was copying what was successful (see DC v Fawcett (Superman - Captain Marvel)  among others)

Bob Kane did a damned site more than just trace Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon.  His perfidy goes way, way deeper than what a good portion of beloved (and otherwise) modern artists do with reference (see Ditko, Liefeld, McFarlane, Liefeld, Mack, Liefeld, Kirby and Liefeld among many).  Denying Finger any creative credit for Batman, the Joker and many others if a far bigger issue.

Finger didn’t borrow. I proved the links. You didn’t read them? You aren’t capable of reading something yourself? 

Bill Finger plagiarized a entire story known as Partners In Peril.The Detective comics has a identical plot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hauberk said:

First, I really don't feel like debating someone that drops a one or two liner and then cross links to someone else's work.  Repeatedly.  At best, that reads as intellectually lazy.  

I also find it incredibly, almost painfully ironic that you continue to place the blame firmly at the feet of Finger who pretty clearly acknowledged that he borrowed liberally from a great many sources, including the Shadow, during a time when everyone was copying what was successful (see DC v Fawcett (Superman - Captain Marvel)  among others)

Bob Kane did a damned site more than just trace Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon.  His perfidy goes way, way deeper than what a good portion of beloved (and otherwise) modern artists do with reference (see Ditko, Liefeld, McFarlane, Liefeld, Mack, Liefeld, Kirby and Liefeld among many).  Denying Finger any creative credit for Batman, the Joker and many others if a far bigger issue.

Evidence 1

Evidence2

source is from The Shadow Strikes. Credit goes to him, and Dial B Blog.

Source

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hauberk said:

First, I really don't feel like debating someone that drops a one or two liner and then cross links to someone else's work.  Repeatedly.  At best, that reads as intellectually lazy.  

I also find it incredibly, almost painfully ironic that you continue to place the blame firmly at the feet of Finger who pretty clearly acknowledged that he borrowed liberally from a great many sources, including the Shadow, during a time when everyone was copying what was successful (see DC v Fawcett (Superman - Captain Marvel)  among others)

Bob Kane did a damned site more than just trace Alex Raymond's Flash Gordon.  His perfidy goes way, way deeper than what a good portion of beloved (and otherwise) modern artists do with reference (see Ditko, Liefeld, McFarlane, Liefeld, Mack, Liefeld, Kirby and Liefeld among many).  Denying Finger any creative credit for Batman, the Joker and many others if a far bigger issue.

Walter B Gibson Trolls Dc

The Shadow creator trolled Dc Comics by accepting the offer to write a Batman story. Even the creator viewed Batman as The Shadow dressed in clown make up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Copying a table doesn't really register to me as tracing an entire picture. A lot of the things outlined as blatant plagiarism in some of the links could also be a coincidence. Yes, references for drawing should have been mentioned but that's never going to occur in a comic title sequence, even today. eg if you don't know what someone swinging off a rope looks like you'll use a photo-reference. It's lazy and potentially inaccurate to copy a drawing of this but it might just be several artists copying the same photo reference.

I also suspect there were characters before the shadow who shared these concepts.

For me the key thing is that all the story beats and visuals add up to make a very different character. If the shadow was exactly the same then I'd have thought the shadow would be as successful as Batman is today. 

The superhero field rarely has new ideas or characters to the point where it's almost a mythology. Spider-man has a mixture of Batman and Superman storybeats but he's still different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, red snow said:

Copying a table doesn't really register to me as tracing an entire picture. A lot of the things outlined as blatant plagiarism in some of the links could also be a coincidence. Yes, references for drawing should have been mentioned but that's never going to occur in a comic title sequence, even today. eg if you don't know what someone swinging off a rope looks like you'll use a photo-reference. It's lazy and potentially inaccurate to copy a drawing of this but it might just be several artists copying the same photo reference.

I also suspect there were characters before the shadow who shared these concepts.

For me the key thing is that all the story beats and visuals add up to make a very different character. If the shadow was exactly the same then I'd have thought the shadow would be as successful as Batman is today. 

The superhero field rarely has new ideas or characters to the point where it's almost a mythology. Spider-man has a mixture of Batman and Superman storybeats but he's still different.

Agreed. I’m out on this. I see no sense discussing / debating with someone that doesn’t actually contribute to the debate. 
 

not you RS. 

Edited by hauberk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was yesterday years old when I learned of Olga Mesmer, the Girl with the X-Ray Eyes [circa early 1930s] who was half alien, had super strength, and could visually focus X-Rays. Her creation predated Superman's, although at inception he wasn't an alien, iirc. 

FIGHT/DON'T FIGHT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, hauberk said:

Agreed. I’m out on this. I see no sense discussing / debating with someone that doesn’t actually contribute to the debate. 
 

not you RS. 

It's too fiddly linking on my phone so i just went for my own thoughts.

 

9 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

I was yesterday years old when I learned of Olga Mesmer, the Girl with the X-Ray Eyes [circa early 1930s] who was half alien, had super strength, and could visually focus X-Rays. Her creation predated Superman's, although at inception he wasn't an alien, iirc. 

FIGHT/DON'T FIGHT

Hercules, Thor (who comics actually turned into superheroes) and more also superpowers way back when.

It's fun to think the first superhero was a female character. Did she fight crime or was it outrageously dated?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

There's not a lot of material to be had on her [that I've yet found] but it looks like both. And some space adventures that got weird.

Olgas' mother, an alien from Venus, found or was found by a creeper human scientist who experimented on her [yeah lol] and Olga later had to contend with the same scientist who developed a sexual attraction to her as a young girl [not lol]

She didn't have an alter ego, no costume [beyond what seems like consistently torn clothes that hung off her] and she had radioactive blood, so when she saved some bachelor in distress and had to give him a blood transfusion, he got some powers too. Seems like he might've subsequently become her sidekick.

Olga Mesmer is within the public domain. I've been kicking around some character designs on my Cintiq because most of that [not all, obvs] is campy fun and subversive as fuck, excepting some of her odd adventures on Venus.

Edited by JEORDHl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I think we can safely say that Batman would be against Plagiarism .

"There's a new threat in Gotham. His insidious crimes incite nerd-on-nerd violence all over this once great city. His name is... Ripoff."

Edited by lacuna
grammar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/8/2020 at 2:35 PM, JEORDHl said:

There's not a lot of material to be had on her [that I've yet found] but it looks like both. And some space adventures that got weird.

Olgas' mother, an alien from Venus, found or was found by a creeper human scientist who experimented on her [yeah lol] and Olga later had to contend with the same scientist who developed a sexual attraction to her as a young girl [not lol]

She didn't have an alter ego, no costume [beyond what seems like consistently torn clothes that hung off her] and she had radioactive blood, so when she saved some bachelor in distress and had to give him a blood transfusion, he got some powers too. Seems like he might've subsequently become her sidekick.

Olga Mesmer is within the public domain. I've been kicking around some character designs on my Cintiq because most of that [not all, obvs] is campy fun and subversive as fuck, excepting some of her odd adventures on Venus.

Sounds like a good character to play with. Especially when you can market it as "the first superhero"

 

7 hours ago, Guy Kilmore said:

I think we can safely say that Batman would be against Plagiarism .

Also a good name for a villain/comedy character

2 hours ago, lacuna said:

"There's a new threat in Gotham. His insidious crimes incite nerd-on-nerd violence all over this once great city. His name is... Ripoff."

With characters like "punchline" (Basically another Harley Quinn) and "clownkiller" (appears to be a teenage Punisher who targets Joker minions) "Ripoff" would not seem out of place in the current Batman comics.

They could also have "not joker" for a change too :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...