Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

All is fair in love and war, both of which are in play here. 

Moreover, Dunsen was with Gregor Clegane's company. Not exactly Mother Teresa's charity group. From what we know of them (and him by association. Surely he can't be morally right after being so long in the company of bastards like Raff and Chiswyck) they deserve Arya's gift of mercy. Arya does think of Gendry, but not associate him with the helm (where the fuck is it anyway ??) and Dunsen lately. 

Dunsen was put on the list for taking Gendry's helmet and that's where he stayed. This was the explicit reason and cause, not just simply because he was one of Gregor's men. Shitmouth was one of Gregor's men, but she never put him on the list.

In the HoBaW her thoughts go more and more to her list and dead people, as imo a layered memory to those she cares for.

 

Quote

 

Arya watched and listened and polished her hates the way Gendry had once polished his horned helm. Dunsen wore those bull's horns now, and she hated him for it. She hated Polliver for Needle, and she hated old Chiswyck who thought he was funny. And Raff the Sweetling, who'd driven his spear through Lommy's throat, she hated even more. She hated Ser Amory Lorch for Yoren, and she hated Ser Meryn Trant for Syrio, the Hound for killing the butcher's boy Mycah, and Ser Ilyn and Prince Joffrey and the queen for the sake of her father and Fat Tom and Desmond and the rest, and even for Lady, Sansa's wolf. The Tickler was almost too scary to hate. At times she could almost forget he was still with them; when he was not asking questions, he was just another soldier, quieter than most, with a face like a thousand other men.

Every night Arya would say their names. "Ser Gregor," she'd whisper to her stone pillow. "Dunsen, Polliver, Chiswyck, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Amory, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei." Back in Winterfell, Arya had prayed with her mother in the sept and with her father in the godswood, but there were no gods on the road to Harrenhal, and her names were the only prayer she cared to remember. (aCoK, Arya VI)

The blind girl rolled onto her side, sat up, sprang to her feet, stretched. Her bed was a rag-stuffed mattress on a shelf of cold stone, and she was always stiff and tight when she awakened. She padded to her basin on small, bare, callused feet, silent as a shadow, splashed cool water on her face, patted herself dry. Ser Gregor, she thought. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. Her morning prayer. Or was it? No, she thought, not mine. I am no one. That is the night wolf's prayer. Someday she will find them, hunt them, smell their fear, taste their blood. Someday. (aDwD, The Blind Girl)

"You lie. I can see the truth in your eyes. You have the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood."

Ser Gregor, she could not help but think. Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei. If she spoke, she would need to lie, and he would know. She kept silent. (aDwD, The Ugly Little Girl)

 

The helmet is gone, and will remain gone. Was simply a phase symbol for Gendry in KL. In the forest though he becomes a bear, with Arya becoming his swan-maiden/swan-princess.

[Mithras]

Yes, though GRRM might leave their fates uncertain.

[GoldenGail3]

4 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Yes, though GRRM might leave their fates uncertain.

Not romantically.. me wants Arya and Jon to unite, lol, as they have such a cute lil sibling relationship...

[zandru]

3 hours ago, wiwerse said:

2 as wolfcest go, then no, its not a problem amongst most animals, have you ever seen a stallion try to have it on with his mare, or a cock with his mother(pun not intended)? because I have. in most cases the offspring is fine, I doubt wolfcest is would be a problem.

Not true, as the puppy mills of recent years have shown. The Ghost/Nymeria pairing is something projected to "bring back" the extinct line of direwolves, from a genetic heritage of ... two siblings? Really? All direwolves in future to be their descendents?

Hey, even the Bible notes that Cain left his parents, Adam and Eve, and married a woman in the next town over.

[Orm]

18 minutes ago, zandru said:

Hey, even the Bible notes that Cain left his parents, Adam and Eve, and married a woman in the next town over

But conveniently forgets that we are told that Adam and Eve are the first and only humans.... A gaping plot hole

And over 2 billion people take it seriously

[wiwerse]

27 minutes ago, zandru said:

Not true, as the puppy mills of recent years have shown. The Ghost/Nymeria pairing is something projected to "bring back" the extinct line of direwolves, from a genetic heritage of ... two siblings? Really? All direwolves in future to be their descendents?

Hey, even the Bible notes that Cain left his parents, Adam and Eve, and married a woman in the next town over.

I'm not saying it's a sure deal, but its possible with other animals, the dire-wolves, no matter the similarities, are not normal wolves, additionally they seem to be magical, similarly to how the targs were, to add to that, While I'm not aware of the dates you're referring to, it's doubtful Mr. Martin would have known too   

[wiwerse]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Wow, strong word. She never thinks of him as a "traitor", just someone who left her pack. And we have ample signals that he didn't abandon her pack emotionally or mentally, and that he did that to have a slim shot at a future. I doubt Arya will retain any "you abandoned me" sentiments as she grows up some more. The fact that Dunsen is still on her list for stealing Gendry's helmet is enough indication.

Kindof ironic. Amongst the fandom Jonarya was always bigger than Jonsa, and not a minority versus Gendrya. I guess you imply "overdone pairings" as in fan-pairings. I don't care how many fans are pro or anti a pairing. I only care about the ones that an author actually wrote. The pairing is there because of all the groundwork that George laid out, and you don't need to squint your eyes to find them as one needs to do with Jonarya. It may not end happy, but he wrote it in for 2 books of acquaintance and post-separation responses. He does the same for Jon and Val, Sansa and Sandor, Jaime and Brienne.

Make up any pairing in your mind you like, but if you go because the author spent a lot of chapters on it and readers accept that as a pairing, then you're not discussing the books anymore.

I agree that Mr Martin left out a lot of hints, I also agree that in the end fanpairings don't matter much, thats why I included it to show my bias.

And your latest quote was interesting as well, It certainly might seem as if she has none to few hard feelings against gendry. As for the bull helm, for all we know, it might allude to Gendrys mother, I recall reading something to that extent, that it was the symbol of his mothers house 

[zandru]

39 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

I recall reading something to that extent, that it was the symbol of [Gendry's] mothers house

As far as Gendry knows, his mother was a professional sex worker, a smallfolk having no House. Although some insist that it was Cersei Lannister. (But not me).

46 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

its possible with other animals, the dire-wolves, no matter the similarities, are not normal wolves, additionally they seem to be magical,

Given that the genre of these works is, technially, fantasy, that could be. However, I'm more comfortable with the idea of dragons, flying and breathing fire, than with anything good coming from a truly miniscule gene pool. (It's funny where some people draw the line, right?)

[wiwerse]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

As far as Gendry knows, his mother was a professional sex worker, a smallfolk having no House. Although some insist that it was Cersei Lannister. (But not me).

Given that the genre of these works is, technially, fantasy, that could be. However, I'm more comfortable with the idea of dragons, flying and breathing fire, than with anything good coming from a truly miniscule gene pool. (It's funny where some people draw the line, right?)

agreed however we also know that genetic inheritance doesn't work like on earth, I remember a theory Mr. Martin might have read and been inspired by, pre-Darwinism. The idea was basically that if something is trained up over the generations, it would become an inheritable trait. Or maybe just one Generation. We see so many sons and daughters taking up physical and mental traits of their children, additionally this might mean that children of greyscale victims either have greyscale, or the scars. However, I'm not fully convinced, but I would say it's probably some kind of fusion

[zandru]

32 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

agreed however we also know that genetic inheritance doesn't work like on earth, I remember a theory Mr. Martin might have read and been inspired by, pre-Darwinism. The idea was basically that if something is trained up over the generations, it would become an inheritable trait.

Lamarckism. Finally deprecated in the 20th century, later found to be not entirely off-base as far as expression of genetic traits are concerned. I disagree that "we also know that genetic inheritance doesn't work like on earth". Maybe, maybe not. Not a hill to die on, in my opinion.

[wiwerse]

2 minutes ago, zandru said:

Lamarckism. Finally deprecated in the 20th century, later found to be not entirely off-base as far as expression of genetic traits are concerned. I disagree that "we also know that genetic inheritance doesn't work like on earth". Maybe, maybe not. Not a hill to die on, in my opinion.

I agree, not a ship I would go down with, but I do believe Mr. Martin said something to the effect that Inheritance (genetic) works differently, like with stark feature persisting for a long time, lannisters having had gold and green as colours as far back as shortly after the conquest, and of course, the seed id strong baratheon. I do believe It was confurmed OU in an ssm, thought I would have to dig it up to be certain. 

Also, thank you for telling me the name. It's literally been bouncing about in my head for years 

[Kierria]

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

Yes, in my opinion, yes they are still somehow going to be lovers.  Their arc will be kind of similar to that of Jaime and Cersei.  The Lannister twins are people who should not be together but love's pull is too strong.  Jon and Arya will be two people who cannot be together under the rules they live in but should be together.  They fit together.  Rules have not kept them in line in the past.  I believe they will break every rule if need be in order to be together.  

[Shi Qiang]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, genetically speaking, this is much worse than the first cousins scenario of human Arya&Jon. Nymeria and Ghost are full sibs, littermates even! If one is distressed about the incest angle, going with a "direwolf romance" is a big no-no.

In addition to being just wrong. Don't go there.

George could take their story in that direction.  It would be an interesting direction to take them in their afterlives.  It might actually make Jon readable as a direwolf point of view. 

[Shi Qiang]

13 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

It's really difficult to change the opinion of haters like @Allardyce(one of the many, but the one in question here)

I learnt it very well in the Arya: Psycho/Righteous thread. 

The fact that people have strong opinions about Arya is a sign that George is doing a good job.  It does not come as a surprise for you and I to be on opposite sides here.  I can say the same about you. That it's really difficult to change the opinion of Arya supporters like TheLastWolf.  I don't hold that against you.  We just differ in our opinion of Arya. 

Peace

 

[Elegant Woes]

No I don't see Jon and Arya ending up together. GRRM wouldn't slowly draw out a giant theme of how narcissistic and toxic the relationships between the Lannisters twins or the same looking Targaryens are only to make Jon and Arya end up together. That's just hypocritical on his part. If, and that is a big if, GRRM is going for a half-siblings/cousin romance then he has to go for one that is a foil to Jaime/Cersei and the Targaryens, not a parallel. They have to look so different from each other that no one would believe they are related and weren't close to each other growing up. If the Stark cousin romance is still on deal, and that is a huge IF because we can't know what's GRRM intention, then it can only be Jon and Sansa. 

[chrisdaw]

On 8/7/2020 at 1:05 PM, zandru said:

When did Arya think of Gendry, once she left the Brotherhood without Banners? We don't have a window into Gendry's head, but the fact that he joined the Brotherhood and thus turned his back on Arya suggests he's not actually lovelorne. I reject chrisdaw's projected plotline.

Gendry wanted to leave the rest of their little pack because they'd get them killed. Arya told him no because she's better than that. Now Gendry spends his life protecting children. Gendry has literally changed his person if not for Arya then at least by Arya.

Arya is primarily attracted to bravery. How do you think Gendry is shaping up in that regard?

What is going to happen should be obvious. When the shit goes down in the BWB Gendry is going to be there on the right side and act extremely heroic, and not only is Arya going to witness it, so is Jaime/Brienne, and that's going to set him on the path to becoming a great knight. Eventually Kingsguard, like the only other character given bull for a nickname in the series. Forbidden love, the most dramatic.

[zandru]

3 hours ago, wiwerse said:

Also, thank you for telling me the name. It's literally been bouncing about in my head for years 

De nada. I've studied geology in days past. And, actually I agree with you that GRRM doesn't need to be bound by traditional genetics.

One thing I forgot to mention on the highly limited gene pool of sibling littermates: one of them is an albino. Probably not a good survival trait, except in the ever snowy north.

[HoodedCrow]

While Lamarckian genetics is not wholly off base, it’s very far off in terms of inheriting induced characteristics. The prime example is a Russian experiment of cutting the tails of mice. They claimed that cut off tails would be inherited. Anyone who breeds plants or anilmals has to ignore this bull. It was matched up with a anti aristocracy philosophy in a way that would be comical now, except that people don’t wear face masks and eat up lies, so...

[Rondo]

10 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

Yes, in my opinion, yes they are still somehow going to be lovers.  Their arc will be kind of similar to that of Jaime and Cersei.  The Lannister twins are people who should not be together but love's pull is too strong.  Jon and Arya will be two people who cannot be together under the rules they live in but should be together.  They fit together.  Rules have not kept them in line in the past.  I believe they will break every rule if need be in order to be together.  

They can live as husband and wife among the wildlings.  Rules mean nothing to the savages.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Rondo said:

They can live as husband and wife among the wildlings.  Rules mean nothing to the savages.

Really? I’d say a reread is in order... The Free Folk are staunchly against inbreeding. Only Valyrians and their white supremacist bullshit are heavily into it in universe.

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”