Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

[a black swan]

13 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

No I don't see Jon and Arya ending up together. GRRM wouldn't slowly draw out a giant theme of how narcissistic and toxic the relationships between the Lannisters twins or the same looking Targaryens are only to make Jon and Arya end up together. That's just hypocritical on his part. If, and that is a big if, GRRM is going for a half-siblings/cousin romance then he has to go for one that is a foil to Jaime/Cersei and the Targaryens, not a parallel. They have to look so different from each other that no one would believe they are related and weren't close to each other growing up. If the Stark cousin romance is still on deal, and that is a huge IF because we can't know what's GRRM intention, then it can only be Jon and Sansa. 

This cracks me up. 

Yes because Cersei & Jamie looking like eachother was the only toxic & narcissistic thing about them. That was the line GRRM created and cannot possibly cross or he'll be a hypocrite. Really?

So by just not looking similar that will magically convince everyone they were A). NOT close growing up B). NOT related.

 Really.

And speaking of foils Arya/Jon would contrast very much with people like Cersei/Jaime. How are you not seeing that?

@kissdbyfire nice to bring up that quote. Rereading Jon's immediate reply where he points put a technicality to not-obvious-incest is a major side-eye. 

“That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?” 
“Longspear’s not your brother.”

Hmm, his Targaryen is showing. 

[Elegant Woes]

3 minutes ago, a black swan said:

This cracks me up. 

Yes because Cersei & Jamie looking like eachother was the only toxic & narcissistic thing about them. That was the line GRRM created and cannot possibly cross or he'll be a hypocrite. Really?

So by just not looking similar that will magically convince everyone they were A). NOT close growing up B). Or related.

 Really.

And speaking of foils Arya/Jon would contrast very much with people like Cersei/Jaime. How are you not seeing that?

 

I never implied that them looking like each other was the only reason why their dynamic is so inherently twisted. Just that it plays a decent part of it. I would like to appreciate it if you didn't straw man me.

Secondly the reason why Jon and Arya won't happen is because the age gap is way too wide between them. Arya will be, at most, 13-14 years old near the end of ADOS whereas Jon will be 18/19. At least with Jon and Sansa the age difference is only 2.5/3 years. 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

3 hours ago, Rondo said:

They can live as husband and wife among the wildlings.  Rules mean nothing to the savages.

They can live similar to Craster.  He was left alone by those savages as well as the white walkers, to whom he made offerings to. 

I don't think the age gap between Jon and Arya will matter.  Jon is a man of the watch but he has already broken their laws for Arya and will do so again. 

14 hours ago, Kierria said:

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

Yes, in my opinion, yes they are still somehow going to be lovers.  Their arc will be kind of similar to that of Jaime and Cersei.  The Lannister twins are people who should not be together but love's pull is too strong.  Jon and Arya will be two people who cannot be together under the rules they live in but should be together.  They fit together.  Rules have not kept them in line in the past.  I believe they will break every rule if need be in order to be together.  

 

[kissdbyfire]

37 minutes ago, a black swan said:

 nice to bring up that quote. Rereading Jon's immediate reply where he points put a technicality to not-obvious-incest is a major side-eye. 
 

Is it?

37 minutes ago, a black swan said:

“That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?” 
“Longspear’s not your brother.”

Hmm, his Targaryen is showing. 

Jon is learning, because he “knows nothing”, and Ygritte is his teacher. Jon’s comment is a simple statement of fact, Longspear isn’t Ygritte’s brother. What he learns here is that, even though Longspear and Ygritte aren’t siblings, or cousins, or cousins who grew up believing they’re siblings, or even related, their relationship would be viewed as a no-no. 
“

“A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan.”

A first cousin is not “from afar”; a first cousin who you thought your whole life was your sister even less. And obviously this goes for both Arya and Sansa. 

[a black swan]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

I never implied that them looking like each other was the only reason why their dynamic is so inherently twisted. Just that it plays a decent part of it. I would like to appreciate it if you didn't straw man me.

You highlighted toxicity and narcissism which have nothing to do with Jon or Arya. Then this similar looks thing comes up as a factor that deters people from thinking the pair are "close growing up" or "related". I mean, if it sounds odd...  maybe ask yourself why? You call it twisted and still suggest a Jonsa solution. This is not adding up. 

Quote

Secondly the reason why Jon and Arya won't happen is because the age gap is way too wide between them. Arya will be, at most, 13-14 years old near the end of ADOS whereas Jon will be 18/19. At least with Jon and Sansa the age difference is only 2.5/3 years. 

This is asoiaf where what you're objecting to is very common practice with many many canon examples. This cannot be your best argument especially as a Jonsa. 

 

[wiwerse]

You know, I just realized, we need to put up a thread discussing genetic inheritance, and evolution in planetos, it might be extremely important

[Lady Dacey]

13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What is going to happen should be obvious.

That anyone who's read these books would think this... let's just say it really surprises me.

[a black swan]

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is it?

Jon is learning, because he “knows nothing”, and Ygritte is his teacher. Jon’s comment is a simple statement of fact, Longspear isn’t Ygritte’s brother. What he learns here is that, even though Longspear and Ygritte aren’t siblings, or cousins, or cousins who grew up believing they’re siblings, or even related, their relationship would be viewed as a no-no. 
“

“A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan.”

A first cousin is not “from afar”; a first cousin who you thought your whole life was your sister even less. And obviously this goes for both Arya and Sansa. 

Assuming Jon is so completely dumb and clueless to basic societal concepts like incest is a major stretch. The fact that he points out Longspear is not her brother indicates a basic understanding. Secondly, Jon could view Ygritte’s lessons relative to just Wildling culture. His basic understanding of the issue seems to be very technical and lacks the emotional relevance of a sibling bond which Ygritte/Longspear share. Again, his answer was very revealing of his own views, which smell distinctly Targ-ish. 

 

[Lady Dacey]

I'm on camp with everyone who has pointed out that the author is building up a possible reunion and romantic relationship between Arya and Gendry. There are other hints and nods towards this as well. 

Two things stand out to me when people say that Gendry's motivation to join the brotherhood means he didn't care about Arya and was ready to abandon her. 

This is one: 

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"We got plenty of mail needs mending, m'lord," Jack reminded Lord Beric. "Most we took off the dead, and there's holes where the death came through."

"You must be a lackwit, boy," said Lem. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate."

"It's no more than they'd do for you," said Gendry

Lem recognizes Gendry's motivations for joining the brotherhood and warns him against it. Must I remind us that Arya was in fact a princess then, not just a highborn lady?

There's this too, just the next day from his joining to the bwb: 

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As Arya was cinching her saddle girth, Gendry came up to say that he was sorry. She put a foot in the stirrup and swung up into her saddle, so she could look down on him instead of up. You could have made swords at Riverrun for my brother, she thought, but what she said was, "If you want to be some stupid outlaw knight and get hanged, why should I care? I'll be at Riverrun, ransomed, with my brother."

He went to her to APOLOGIZE, but we never hear out his words. It's something GRRM does often enough and to great effect, but it unnerves me. Anyway. We know she cares. And look at the line she chose to throw back at him! If you wanna be an outlaw and get hanged when it's more like if you wanna be a knight to kiss a princess. That's why you should care, Arya!

There are other, more subtle things. I recently noticed that throughout Clash of Kings every time Gendry speaks of Lommy and Hot Pie or any other of the night's watch recruits he refers to them as "the likes of them", but when he is referring exclusively to him and Arya he says "the likes of us"...

[Darth Sidious]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:11 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon and Arya will be together before the end of the books.  It may not play out according to the original outline but they will be together.  I believe they will become mates after they die.  As wolves.  Jon is the third lie that must be slain after all.  And Arya is already dead inside.  Their love for each other will survive death and carry on in whatever form they get for their second lives. 

Direwolves. It doesn't seem fair to get to live again like that.  Let them be porcupines, beetles,  or something like that.  Both are prickly enough.  

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, a black swan said:

 

Assuming Jon is so completely dumb and clueless to basic societal concepts like incest is a major stretch. The fact that he points out Longspear is not her brother indicates a basic understanding. Secondly, Jon could view Ygritte’s lessons relative to just Wildling culture. His basic understanding of the issue seems to be very technical and lacks the emotional relevance of a sibling bond which Ygritte/Longspear share. Again, his answer was very revealing of his own views, which smell distinctly Targ-ish. 

 

I never said Jon is/was dumb. And of course he knows about incest, how could he not, given that the whole world knows about it? But most people south of the Wall wouldn’t frown on a marriage between cousins. Most people south of the Wall view only the Valyrian custom of marrying siblings “to keep the bloodlines pure” (  ) as gross. So, I would argue that Jon, up to that moment, would have the same opinion as those south of the wall. And that’s where Ygritte’s first lesson comes in. 

His comment to Ygritte about Longspear is, as I said before, a statement of fact. Ygritte starts teaching Jon about the ways of the Free Folk, and Jon takes these lessons to heart. So much so that in ADwD, long after Ygritte is dead, Jon still thinks of all he’s learned from her [and others]:

“Iron Emmett grimaced. “Men are men, vows are words, and words are wind. You should put guards around the women.”
“And who will guard the guards?” You know nothing, Jon Snow. He had learned, though, and Ygritte had been his teacher. If he could not hold to his own vows, how could he expect more of his brothers? But there were dangers in trifling with wildling women. A man can own a woman, and a man can own a knife, Ygritte had told him once, but no man can own both.”

But hey, you want to view Ygritte’s lesson as the complete opposite of what it is to support Jonrya, have at it.

 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

Lem recognizes Gendry's motivations for joining the brotherhood and warns him against it.

And Gendry is of course quite stubborn Lem can warn him all he wants about reality not being like Tom's song, he'll steal a princess's kiss anyway

 

[zandru]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

His comment to Ygritte about Longspear is, as I said before, a statement of fact. Ygritte starts teaching Jon about the ways of the Free Folk, and Jon takes these lessons to heart.

Exactly! South of the Wall, folks no doubt marry fellow villagers all the time, even in isolated areas. Our own experience (in Europe, as just one obvious example) has indicated that this can result in genetic abnormalities propagating through these small populations, much to their detriment. The Freefolk seem to understand that this practice is harmful, and insist upon out-breeding. This is news to Jon, who took a more limited view of what "incest" was, up to that point. He may "know nothing", but he's a quick study.

So ... Jon's new understanding of a larger definition of incest, in addition to the southron "close relative" taboo make it impossible for Jon and Arya to wed and breed. Even as direwolves.

Also, just because two people have strong feelings of affection towards one another doesn't mean they absolutely will act upon them in a sexual manner. (I mean, YUKKO!) Which gets us back to the very first posts on the subject.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

And Gendry is of course quite stubborn Lem can warn him all he wants about reality not being like Tom's song, he'll steal a princess's kiss anyway

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Arya is just a proxy for family, for difficult choices Jon will have to make because he’s very sensitive to threats to them. He first had to confront a choice with Robb and left the Watch for him. He then had to make it when he realized the wildlings were a threat to Bran and Rickon. Arya was next with Ramsay. Threats to Sansa will be incoming; I’m interested to see how that turns out. 

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Threats to Sansa will be incoming; I’m interested to see how that turns out. 

Of course, you're assuming that Jon is not actually dead...

Also, she's not Sansa; she's The Bastard Alayne at this point. And really, by now, if Jon has survived, perhaps he's learned his lesson about breaking his vows and haring off on some wild ...er, hare chase.

Plus, I totally reject JonSa. Too much bad blood between those two. Not to mention blood, as in relatedness. What went for Arya goes for Sansa, only squared.

[aromaticanalysis]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya is just a proxy for family, for difficult choices Jon will have to make because he’s very sensitive to threats to them. He first had to confront a choice with Robb and left the Watch for him. He then had to make it when he realized the wildlings were a threat to Bran and Rickon. Arya was next with Ramsay. Threats to Sansa will be incoming; I’m interested to see how that turns out. 

Arya is not "just a proxy" for Jon, he is legitimately closer to her than anyone else in his family tbh. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 minutes ago, aromaticanalysis said:

Arya is not "just a proxy" for Jon, he is legitimately closer to her than anyone else in his family tbh. 

I’m speaking from a Doylist perspective. All of Jon’s siblings exist to put him through similar tests Aemon had to go through, aka the heart in conflict. Jon took similar risks for Arya as he did for Robb, Rickon, and Bran. Stating this doesn’t undermine Jon and Arya’s special relationship.

[aromaticanalysis]

16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I’m speaking from a Doylist perspective. All of Jon’s siblings exist to put him through similar tests Aemon had to go through, aka the heart in conflict. Jon took similar risks for Arya as he did for Robb, Rickon, and Bran. Stating this doesn’t undermine Jon and Arya’s special relationship.

I don’t recall Jon launching a full-scale military incursion for Robb, Rickon or Bran. Arya is clearly a harder test for Jon’s heart than his other siblings.

[MissM]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya is just a proxy for family, for difficult choices Jon will have to make because he’s very sensitive to threats to them. He first had to confront a choice with Robb and left the Watch for him. He then had to make it when he realized the wildlings were a threat to Bran and Rickon. Arya was next with Ramsay. Threats to Sansa will be incoming; I’m interested to see how that turns out. 

Why are his "siblings" stand-ins for these conflict of the heart tests? 

Maester Aemon was tested 3 times and so was Jon. Unlike the former, Jon fails his final test and pays with his life. 

Threats to Sansa have been there and Jon (and the author) don't seem that interested. Sorry.