Incest Evolution and Genetic Inheritance in the sphere of Planetos

[wiwerse]

I just thought It was really needed to, in some form compile what we know about incest, inheritance, evolution etc. etc. and theorize from that. I would love to see you thoughts on it.

[Moiraine Sedai]

It preserves traits such as skinchanging, warging.  Extremely long faces.  

[Darth Sidious]

55 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

I just thought It was really needed to, in some form compile what we know about incest, inheritance, evolution etc. etc. and theorize from that. I would love to see you thoughts on it.

 

5 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It preserves traits such as skinchanging, warging.  Extremely long faces.  

Seriously, it was done in the story to bring on abilities such as dragon bonding.  I would not be surprised if the Starks practiced it in the past to keep the warging gene going.  Craster is a Stark and he could have had the skin changing gene in his blood line.  That was why his sons were important to the White Walkers.  These genes were probably recessive.

[wiwerse]

28 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

 

Seriously, it was done in the story to bring on abilities such as dragon bonding.  I would not be surprised if the Starks practiced it in the past to keep the warging gene going.  Craster is a Stark and he could have had the skin changing gene in his blood line.  That was why his sons were important to the White Walkers.  These genes were probably recessive.

Prince Rhaego, how do you arrive on the conclusion that craster is a Stark?

And yes I do agree with both you and @Moiraine Sedai that it was done to keep traits, in the family, we see hints of this in that the starks seem to have maintained more or less the same features for a long time, without the "seed is strong" Baratheon genes. however, IIRC then then the last time we saw a stark marrying a semi-close relative, was when rickard stark married his cousin, and even then it wasn't very close. nevertheless, we see persistent traits simialr to the hagdeburgian traits, without similar levels of incest. I was more refering to the effects of incest, and what we know about the genome of planetos

[Lord Lannister]

Clearly the moral of A Song of Ice and Fire is that incest is healthy and the key to keeping family dynasties going strong for thousands of years. 

[wiwerse]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Clearly the moral of A Song of Ice and Fire is that incest is healthy and the key to keeping family dynasties going strong for thousands of years. 

and that the fix to problems is "Fire and Blood", and that you need nukes or equivalent to be an effective conqueror without spending thousands of years (Alexander of Macedonia anyone?) 

[Loose Bolt]

56 minutes ago, wiwerse said:

and that the fix to problems is "Fire and Blood", and that you need nukes or equivalent to be an effective conqueror without spending thousands of years (Alexander of Macedonia anyone?) 

Widow and heir of Alexander the Great were assassinated and his empire was divided between his generals very soon after his death. Or his career as a leader lasted only 12 years. Ironically only as long as certain dictator who ruled Germany 1933-1945.

[wiwerse]

nevertheless, this thread was started as a means to discuss genetic inheritance in planetos first and foremost, the other parts were more associated 

[corbon]

On 8/10/2020 at 2:59 AM, wiwerse said:

Prince Rhaego, how do you arrive on the conclusion that craster is a Stark?

Likely it fits with, or is necessary for, some theory or other.
Its not derived from the text. 

On 8/10/2020 at 2:59 AM, wiwerse said:

 I was more refering to the effects of incest, and what we know about the genome of planetos

We don't actually see much sustained incest outside the Dragonlords, do we?
And they were sorcerers (at least in Valyria), so possibly not much we can derive from them that translates for normal humans.

Seems to me that GRRM takes a very basic view on the results of incest - it promotes keeping the same genes in the same family and comes with attendant genetic risks.  Not sure we can reasonably glean more.

[Lord Varys]

What we can say is that the way the author presents his ridiculously old dynasties who, apparently, married their own cousins since, well, forever if the Stark and Lannister family trees we have are any indication (and what we know about historical marriages among other houses).

One can use that whole thing to sort of try to explain how the Lannisters could preserve their unique fair-haired looks from the days of Lann to the days of Tywin just as one could also use that to explain how something like a unique 'Stark look' developed - although that one definitely isn't as distinct nor necessarily as difficult to maintain as the blond and golden hair of the Lannisters (of Casterly Rock).

After all, if nearly all the brides the Lannisters or Starks took were their own cousins to various degrees (both through the male and female line) then it would make sense that a certain distinct look would develop over the decades and centuries - the same the royal dynasties of Europe developed such characteristic traits.

That wouldn't be incest but rather a form of strong inbreeding piling up throughout the centuries and millennia. The occasional 'freak bride' (like Rohanne Webber for the Lannisters or a Royce or Blackwood for the Starks) wouldn't really contribute too much there if we keep in mind that the children and grandchildren of such a union would just go back to marry some cousin.

[wiwerse]

yes, but since Mr. Martin has said that genetic inheritance, doesn't work the same way as on earth, I was intending to find traces of what type of evolution happened on planetos. One idea I was toying with was some form of lamarckism, since we see gendry, who has not known his father, pick up his fathers weapon of choice, which they seem alone in the current baratheons, favoring it.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, wiwerse said:

yes, but since Mr. Martin has said that genetic inheritance, doesn't work the same way as on earth, I was intending to find traces of what type of evolution happened on planetos. One idea I was toying with was some form of lamarckism, since we see gendry, who has not known his father, pick up his fathers weapon of choice, which they seem alone in the current baratheons, favoring it.

OK, how about Sam becoming a decent archer as depicted on his house sigil?  

[wiwerse]

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, how about Sam becoming a decent archer as depicted on his house sigil?  

perhaps so

[corbon]

8 hours ago, wiwerse said:

yes, but since Mr. Martin has said that genetic inheritance, doesn't work the same way as on earth, I was intending to find traces of what type of evolution happened on planetos. One idea I was toying with was some form of lamarckism, since we see gendry, who has not known his father, pick up his fathers weapon of choice, which they seem alone in the current baratheons, favoring it.

Seems like that would be related to him being a smith, rather than a genetic/Robert thing.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

OK, how about Sam becoming a decent archer as depicted on his house sigil?  

Seems like that would be related to his inherent cowardice - a bow being the only real available ranged weapon. And its not like he's any good, just not as terrible with it as he is with a sword.

[Curled Finger]

29 minutes ago, corbon said:

Seems like that would be related to him being a smith, rather than a genetic/Robert thing.

Seems like that would be related to his inherent cowardice - a bow being the only real available ranged weapon. And its not like he's any good, just not as terrible with it as he is with a sword.

That's not really fair.  Sam is brave for the sake of protecting or defending someone else, a major knightly quality.    He may not be able to throw down for fun or sport, but he's all hero when it counts.  Sam killed an Other, he is no coward.  I spend a lot of time trying to figure out who will get which sword and usually vehemently argue against Sam's wielding Heartsbane.  Sam isn't a swordsman, but he practices with bow and arrow a great lot on the Cinnamon Wind and even notes improvement, to his usually hard evaluation of his own abilities.   If we cannot take some measure of clue or hint or encouragement from House sigils, what is the point of having them or the histories?   

[Loose Bolt]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 If we cannot take some measure of clue or hint or encouragement from House sigils, what is the point of having them or the histories?

Sometimes those sigils include false information. For instance it seems to me that Tywin sometimes was more fox than lion. Or he used tricks to solve his problems. Like he outfoxed Reynard (not the the fox) by drowning surviving Reynes, sacked KL and slaughtered all Targs he could and got rid of northern pretender by using Boltons and Freys as his enforcers.

[corbon]

17 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That's not really fair.  Sam is brave for the sake of protecting or defending someone else, a major knightly quality.    He may not be able to throw down for fun or sport, but he's all hero when it counts.  Sam killed an Other, he is no coward. 

Sure. He has inherent cowardice, which he manages to rise to the occasion and defeat when it counts. Good for him. Thats not the point. The point is that his choice of weapon is not defined by his house history, but by his personal character/situation, just as Gendry's choice of a hammer is not defined by his un-realised genetic inheritance from a great hammer-wielder, but by his personal situation as a smith, used to wielding a hammer every day.

Quote

I spend a lot of time trying to figure out who will get which sword and usually vehemently argue against Sam's wielding Heartsbane.  Sam isn't a swordsman, but he practices with bow and arrow a great lot on the Cinnamon Wind and even notes improvement, to his usually hard evaluation of his own abilities.   If we cannot take some measure of clue or hint or encouragement from House sigils, what is the point of having them or the histories?   

I didn't say you can't. I pointed out that your examples are badly flawed. They are correlated, yes, but they clearly have other causes.  

The point of House Sigils is easy identification, especially on a battlefield. As it was historically. Verisimilitude. The histories are more likely to have literary relevance, but even there, they provide verisimilitude and depth which justifies them on their own - let alone additional financial benefits.
They may also provide some extra literary value in the form of clues etc, but they have a point of their own independent of literary extra reasons. 

ETA: I think a better example for this idea would be Oberyn Martell, who favours the Spear, as per the Martell symbolism. I suspect thats more of a conscious stylistic choice nodding to his heritage on Oberyn's behalf, or perhaps one formed by heritage-formed training, as opposed to a 'genetic impulse', so to speak, but its certainly a much better example.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Sometimes those sigils include false information. For instance it seems to me that Tywin sometimes was more fox than lion. Or he used tricks to solve his problems. Like he outfoxed Reynard (not the the fox) by drowning surviving Reynes, sacked KL and slaughtered all Targs he could and got rid of northern pretender by using Boltons and Freys as his enforcers.

True and there are many examples of the sigils and histories falling flat in the current story.  I am taking the whole of the Tarly history (that I can recall) along with the "magical bloodline" and a sigil that says this chubby intellectual self-described craven has some real warrior in him.   All I've got for the argument is a historical figure named Savage Sam several generations removed from Herndon of the Horn.  In the current tale I've got Sam the Slayer who sold everything except a broken horn.   I'm totally good with Samwell being a kickass hero archer whether he wants it or not.  And I am ok with this being some sort of genetic memory so deeply ingrained Sam may be incapable of fighting it.   Not unlike the Stark warg and skinchanging or Targaryan magics come to light.  Maybe there are connections like that with the Lannisters, outside Tyrion being a current call back to Lann the Clever.   Will let you know if I find anything. 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Sure. He has inherent cowardice, which he manages to rise to the occasion and defeat when it counts. Good for him. Thats not the point. The point is that his choice of weapon is not defined by his house history, but by his personal character/situation, just as Gendry's choice of a hammer is not defined by his un-realised genetic inheritance from a great hammer-wielder, but by his personal situation as a smith, used to wielding a hammer every day.

I didn't say you can't. I pointed out that your examples are badly flawed. They are correlated, yes, but they clearly have other causes.  

The point of House Sigils is easy identification, especially on a battlefield. As it was historically. Verisimilitude. The histories are more likely to have literary relevance, but even there, they provide verisimilitude and depth which justifies them on their own - let alone additional financial benefits.
They may also provide some extra literary value in the form of clues etc, but they have a point of their own independent of literary extra reasons. 

ETA: I think a better example for this idea would be Oberyn Martell, who favours the Spear, as per the Martell symbolism. I suspect thats more of a conscious stylistic choice nodding to his heritage on Oberyn's behalf, or perhaps one formed by heritage-formed training, as opposed to a 'genetic impulse', so to speak, but its certainly a much better example.

I get the point.  Still nothing says Gendry's weapon of choice isn't due in part to some call to his parentage. 

In that the Starks and Targaryans are both experiencing some resurgence of magical traits (magical genetics?  sure, why not?) why wouldn't other bloodlines experience a similar thing?  I understand what you are getting at that genetic memory isn't the main force here, but the OP is looking for these coincidences and that is all I'm offering.  

Total buzzkill on the sigils.  100% true, but a buzzkill nonetheless. 

Loved the Oberyn Martell example.   Well done.