What does Barristan think about Jaime's Kingslaying?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

So let's not derail this discussion, so @Lord Varys, this is not a debate on if Jaime should have broken his vows by just taking Aerys into custody so he can be killed regardless later on, the question is what did Barristan think of it. There are several conflicting things Barristan thinks/says/does in regards to the subject. On one side he publicly gives his disdain for the Kingslaying when he is dismissed, though that may be due to him being outraged at the time. On the other side we have pretty much everything else about him. He is acutely aware of just how insane Aerys was and it's clearly a heavy burden on him. He is also very determined to serve an actually good King, which seems to imply that Aerys did leave grave scars on him. And even more telling one of his biggest regrets is saving Aerys at Duskandale, suggesting that while he probably held his vows in high enough esteem not to do what Jaime did, he did think it would have been best if he would have passively allowed Aerys to die. So what do you think. Is Barristan thankful, is he secretly accepting of Jaime or does he downright hate him?

[Orm]

Like almost everyone else in the story and being complicated humans in general.... Barristan is being a big fat hypocrite when he is condemning Jaime....

Add some mental gymnastics aswell....

[Alyn Oakenfist]

3 minutes ago, Orm said:

Barristan is being a big fat hypocrite when he is condemning Jaime....

Yeah, the question is if he meant it. He was a hypocrite regardless, but he may have just been pissed

[frenin]

41 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

On one side he publicly gives his disdain for the Kingslaying when he is dismissed, though that may be due to him being outraged at the time

It wasn't only then.

 

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"Yours, if you will have me." Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and council. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore. Nothing will excuse that. I might be serving in King's Landing still if the vile boy upon the Iron Throne had not cast me aside, it shames me to admit. But when he took the cloak that the White Bull had draped about my shoulders, and sent men to kill me that selfsame day, it was as though he'd ripped a caul off my eyes. That was when I knew I must find my true king, and die in his service—"

 

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Selmy had never approved of Jaime's presence in his precious Kingsguard. Before the rebellion, the old knight thought him too young and untried; afterward, he had been known to say that the Kingslayer should exchange that white cloak for a black one.

 

41 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

He is also very determined to serve an actually good King, which seems to imply that Aerys did leave grave scars on

It's not implied. It's outright stated.

 

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[...]  In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.
But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. 

 

 

41 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

So what do you think. Is Barristan thankful, is he secretly accepting of Jaime or does he downright hate him?

Barristan like all of Aerys's seven we know about, his last seven, is the definition of hypocrite,  a singular group that one, they are all villains and moral cowards, the six oldest bullied and abused the seventh and turned him into the worst of all of them.

After my unrelated rant, Barristan hates and despises Jaime, i think that Barristan's opinionlike the rest of the Westerosi is akin to show Ned's words to Jaime, "You served well, until it wasn't safe". In Barristan pov, there isn't any justifiable reason to murder Aerys when he was about to fall anyway, which is true until you are privy to the wildfire plot.

Barristan wanted to kill Aerys to preveent further bloodshed, killing Aerys when he was already a dead man walking and people far more justified and not kingsguard were coming for his head, it's just plain nasty in Barri's view,

[Ser Leftwich]

Selmy is torn. He understands that Aerys was bad, but has issue with Jaime killing him. Selmy has a hard time, even in his own head/thoughts, to go against "knightly culture."

Selmy is just another voice to express the great contradiction that "vows" are in the real world. Jaime, Sandor, Brienne, Ned, it is everywhere. Drunk Jaime probably put is the most straightforward:

"Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.""

I think we are just hearing Selmy thinking along the same lines in a round-about way.

[nyser1]

I think Barristan is a bit tunnel visioned in the sense of following his oaths down to the literal meaning of each word.

 

Before I get attacked by Selmy lovers I am not bashing him, that is my evaluation. As such, I think he frowns upon Jamie. He specifically calls him out on it when "retired" by Cersei/Joffrey. However, it is a bit hypocritical has he foreswore other knightly vows to stand idle while Aerys did what he did.

[Lord Varys]

Barristan thinks that Jaime is scum - and rightfully so. The man murdered his defenseless king and he, Barristan, doesn't seem to have known about the wildfire plot (if he had, we can be sure that Selmy would have seen to it that there was a proper search for the missing fruits of the Mad King during Robert's reign).

Barristan's own views on the matter sort of reflect how a Kingsguard can deal with a case like Aerys II. Don't kill him, but consider standing aside when his enemies are about to be killed.

Jaime soiled his cloak and the honor of the Kingsguard by killing his king. It would have been different if he had just not defended him, had yielded to the enemy, etc. It wouldn't have won him any renown, of course, he would have been a kind of second Boros Blount, but he wouldn't have become the living antithesis of the what the Kingsguard stands for. There is a variety of actions one can do between 'doing everything the king says like a robot' and 'murdering him'. A middle ground may also not exactly make you a great person, but it wouldn't make you anathema to all Westerosi laws and traditions and beliefs the way it happened with Jaime.

You have to understand how a chivalric order works. There is a collective ideal there, which is reflected and strengthened in turn by the accomplishments of the individual members. If a member of the order soils his cloak then this badly reflects on his knightly peers unless/until honor is restored by punishing the man who dishonored himself and the order.

This is why the Kingsguard condemn their fallen peers the strongest - which we see with Lucamore Strong, who his peers want to see dead, which we see with the KG at the tower who condemn Jaime for his deeds (at least in Ned's dream), and which we see, curiously enough, in Jaime himself who makes it clear that he is not going to condone Jaime-like behavior in his own Kingsguard after he has become Lord Commander.

2 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Selmy is torn. He understands that Aerys was bad, but has issue with Jaime killing him. Selmy has a hard time, even in his own head/thoughts, to go against "knightly culture."

Selmy is just another voice to express the great contradiction that "vows" are in the real world. Jaime, Sandor, Brienne, Ned, it is everywhere. Drunk Jaime probably put is the most straightforward:

"Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.""

I think we are just hearing Selmy thinking along the same lines in a round-about way.

I actually don't think Selmy would ever phrase things in this manner - that is a kind of modern 'picking and choosing' and 'I do what I want' way of thinking. And something that's really uncalled for in context. Neither Jaime nor any KG serving Aerys II or Joffrey or any other shitty king can hide behind the fact that he swore other vows earlier down the road. The KG is the epitome of knighthood, and you don't have to join this order. You do so of your own free will. If you do not want to obey the king in all things - including things going against the vows you previously may have sworn - then you simply shouldn't join the KG. Especially not the way Jaime did - who joined a raving madman's KG to be able to bang his sister some more. One could have pity with a young guy joining the KG of Jaehaerys II or Aegon V - who had no idea that he would eventually protecting a lunatic like Aerys II - but Jaime wasn't such a guy. Jaime decided to join the KG of Mad Aerys when the man's madness was plain for all the world to see.

Selmy acknowledges he made a mistake with his Duskendale stunt - but he would never turn against a king he has sworn to defend. But what he does from ACoK to ADwD certainly shows the man has a pragmatic side. His lesson from his time with Aerys II is that he will not join a new monarch unless he had the opportunity to first assess his qualities as a ruler - which, if you imagine Selmy could live long enough to serve Dany's son or daughter as Kingsguard, could mean he would such a successor to a similar standard, possibly refusing to serve them if they showed signs of becoming another Aerys II or Maegor the Cruel.

Also, Selmy is willing to turn against Dany's own king consort, staging a coup at her court.

All that shows the man isn't exactly some sort of blind sheep.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Barristan thinks that Jaime is scum - and rightfully so. The man murdered his defenseless king and he, Barristan, doesn't seem to have known about the wildfire plot (if he had, we can be sure that Selmy would have seen to it that there was a proper search for the missing fruits of the Mad King during Robert's reign).

Barristan's own views on the matter sort of reflect how a Kingsguard can deal with a case like Aerys II. Don't kill him, but consider standing aside when his enemies are about to be killed.

Jaime soiled his cloak and the honor of the Kingsguard by killing his king. It would have been different if he had just not defended him, had yielded to the enemy, etc. It wouldn't have won him any renown, of course, he would have been a kind of second Boros Blount, but he wouldn't have become the living antithesis of the what the Kingsguard stands for. There is a variety of actions one can do between 'doing everything the king says like a robot' and 'murdering him'. A middle ground may also not exactly make you a great person, but it wouldn't make you anathema to all Westerosi laws and traditions and beliefs the way it happened with Jaime.

Good, good, let the hate flow through you. Jokes aside, really we had this argument 5000 times already, you're clearly not budging on the Jaime hating, so let's just not get into it, yes?

[Roswell]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Barristan thinks that Jaime is scum - and rightfully so. The man murdered his defenseless king and he, Barristan, doesn't seem to have known about the wildfire plot (if he had, we can be sure that Selmy would have seen to it that there was a proper search for the missing fruits of the Mad King during Robert's reign).

Jaime is scum to Barristan.  He knew nothing of the Wildfire plot.  Jaime is still scum because this is not his only crimes. 

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Barristan's own views on the matter sort of reflect how a Kingsguard can deal with a case like Aerys II. Don't kill him, but consider standing aside when his enemies are about to be killed.

Jaime soiled his cloak and the honor of the Kingsguard by killing his king. It would have been different if he had just not defended him, had yielded to the enemy, etc. It wouldn't have won him any renown, of course, he would have been a kind of second Boros Blount, but he wouldn't have become the living antithesis of the what the Kingsguard stands for. There is a variety of actions one can do between 'doing everything the king says like a robot' and 'murdering him'. A middle ground may also not exactly make you a great person, but it wouldn't make you anathema to all Westerosi laws and traditions and beliefs the way it happened with Jaime.

 

There is a middle ground.  Things aren't always black and white.  The Wildfire plot could have been stopped without murdering Aerys.  Jaime did it because he disliked his king.  A KG should not act out on those feelings, however strong they may be. 

Jaime is scum.

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You have to understand how a chivalric order works. There is a collective ideal there, which is reflected and strengthened in turn by the accomplishments of the individual members. If a member of the order soils his cloak then this badly reflects on his knightly peers unless/until honor is restored by punishing the man who dishonored himself and the order.

Hey Lord Varys, please, when you get a chance, watch "Black Rain."  It is an old movie from back in the day.

Ser Barristan is not aware of the Wildfire plot.  Maybe he might give Jaime a little break if he did.  Then again, a great man like Ser Barristan would have found that middle ground.  He could have stopped the Wildfire plot and saved Aerys at the same time.  It's not all black and white. 

Jaime chose to serve the KG for the most self-serving of reasons.  He was never a moral man.  Bad seed right from the get go.  Jaime is a total garbage of a human being.  He was balling the queen behind his king's back.  The same king who forgave him and kept him on.  He let the whole realm believed his bastards are next in line to the throne.  The WOTFKs started because of him. 

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Good, good, let the hate flow through you. Jokes aside, really we had this argument 5000 times already, you're clearly not budging on the Jaime hating, so let's just not get into it, yes?

This has nothing to do with hate, I tried to answer you question. Which shouldn't surprise you considering you actually tagged me in the posting.

And I actually very much enjoy Jaime's POV and personality - he is great fun to read.

3 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Jaime is scum. 

There is a middle ground.  Things aren't always black and white.  The Wildfire plot could have been stopped without murdering Aerys.  Jaime did it because he disliked his king.  A KG should not act out on those feelings, however strong they may be. 

To be sure, I can certainly imagine a KG murdering his king going down to be a more honored guy - if he didn't turn against said king at a moment when the guy was about to be killed anyway, but rather killed him sacrificing his own life trying to accomplish something good. Like, say, one of the KG appointed by Aegon I or Aenys sacrificing themselves to put down the mad dog Maegor rather than suffering it that he persecute Aegon the Uncrowned, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Or some KG going down trying to stop the Green coup to steal Rhaenyra's throne.

3 minutes ago, Roswell said:

Hey Lord Varys, please, when you get a chance, watch "Black Rain."  It is an old movie from back in the day.

What's the point of that movie in relation to this topic?

[Roswell]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

This has nothing to do with hate, I tried to answer you question. Which shouldn't surprise you considering you actually tagged me in the posting.

And I actually very much enjoy Jaime's POV and personality - he is great fun to read.

To be sure, I can certainly imagine a KG murdering his king going down to be a more honored guy - if he didn't turn against said king at a moment when the guy was about to be killed anyway, but rather killed him sacrificing his own life trying to accomplish something good. Like, say, one of the KG appointed by Aegon I or Aenys sacrificing themselves to put down the mad dog Maegor rather than suffering it that he persecute Aegon the Uncrowned, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Or some KG going down trying to stop the Green coup to steal Rhaenyra's throne.

What's the point of that movie in relation to this topic?

It is a Michael Douglas flick.  Compromised cop, you know.  It is not directly related.  I just thought you might enjoy it. 

[Lord Varys]

Ah, okay. I see it is a Ridley Scott film, so I actually might enjoy it. And I actually do like Michael Douglas as well.

But let's not derail the topic.

[frenin]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

(if he had, we can be sure that Selmy would have seen to it that there was a proper search for the missing fruits of the Mad King during Robert's reign).

That's wishful thinking, he would have let it be, it would've been his duty.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Barristan's own views on the matter sort of reflect how a Kingsguard can deal with a case like Aerys II. Don't kill him, but consider standing aside when his enemies are about to be killed.

And Barri himself is clear, as long as Aerys commanded him to do something, he would be honor bound to oblige.

 

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If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have had no choice but to obey . But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters , Selmy reflected. Now I am the lord commander, and it is hard to know which path is right .

 

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually don't think Selmy would ever phrase things in this manner - that is a kind of modern 'picking and choosing' and 'I do what I want' way of thinking. And something that's really uncalled for in context. Neither Jaime nor any KG serving Aerys II or Joffrey or any other shitty king can hide behind the fact that he swore other vows earlier down the road. The KG is the epitome of knighthood, and you don't have to join this order. You do so of your own free will. If you do not want to obey the king in all things - including things going against the vows you previously may have sworn - then you simply shouldn't join the KG. Especially not the way Jaime did - who joined a raving madman's KG to be able to bang his sister some more. One could have pity with a young guy joining the KG of Jaehaerys II or Aegon V - who had no idea that he would eventually protecting a lunatic like Aerys II - but Jaime wasn't such a guy. Jaime decided to join the KG of Mad Aerys when the man's madness was plain for all the world to see.

It wasn't plain for Jaime, who is explicitly stated to not have given a damn about none of that, unless it was Cersei or martial tihngs, Jaime didn't really care, the only exception being Tyrion. 

Jaime was 15 years when he joined the order, he didn't saw Aerys. he was seeing his own heroes... who would later turn  into his own bullies.

 

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, Selmy is willing to turn against Dany's own king consort, staging a coup at her court.

All that shows the man isn't exactly some sort of blind sheep.

Outright because Dany didn't order him to do so, which means that he's exactly a blind sheep,

 

 

12 hours ago, Roswell said:

There is a middle ground.  Things aren't always black and white.  The Wildfire plot could have been stopped without murdering Aerys.  Jaime did it because he disliked his king.  A KG should not act out on those feelings, however strong they may be. 

Jaime is scum.

The wildfire plot gave Jaime the perfect cloak, moral wise mind you, to kill Aerys.

 

That characters in Westeros despise Jaime for killing Areys is one thing, that the fandom despise the man for killing a monster and a would be genocide is astonishing,  while at the same praising a man that has made the Nuremberg defense his own personal motto.

A man that in his hypocrite words.

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Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing .

 

Had one of those honorable men just off the mad man, Viserys or Aegon would have ascended to the throne and the Targs would not have been ousted. Yet the let him loose, with the well known outcome.

If Jaime is scum, what are those six shining nights that let their king doom himself by brutally killing innocent people??

[Orm]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime is scum, what are those six shining nights that let their king doom himself by brutally killing innocent people??

All the Jaime hate for his actions as Aerys's kings-guard...... But none when it comes to Aurther 'prince-guard' Dayne...

"The finest knight".... my ass

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

That's wishful thinking, he would have let it be, it would've been his duty.

LOL, right. Textual evidence for such ridiculous nonsense? The wildfire in the capital would threaten his own life as well as that of the new king and queen and their family.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It wasn't plain for Jaime, who is explicitly stated to not have given a damn about none of that, unless it was Cersei or martial tihngs, Jaime didn't really care, the only exception being Tyrion. 

Jaime was 15 years when he joined the order, he didn't saw Aerys. he was seeing his own heroes... who would later turn  into his own bullies.

Your defending sister-fucking scum here, a man so corrupt he wants to joing a chaste order of knights to have some more incest sex. The man is disgusting just alone for that.

But the audacity to claim this man had no idea whose KG he was joining when his own father was the man's Hand and when he, Jaime Lannister, was in KL when he was fucked into agreeing to join the KG is utter shit. The man was at court. He would have seen his father, the king, and other people at court who would have talked about the king and his madness - just as Jaime himself would have seen it.

As he later did at Harrenhal where he actually swore his vows. He could have decided not to do it then. He didn't, he wanted to the lackey of a lunatic. He got what he wanted.

Even if you were magically right there - and that's pretty much impossible - then I still don't care about a man as stupid as to to not see that he was becoming the lackey of a lunatic. If you swear holy vows not knowing what you do it is your fault, too, you know. It is your duty to think and inform yourself before you act. Even if you are Jaime Lannister.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Outright because Dany didn't order him to do so, which means that he's exactly a blind sheep,

LOL. Barristan is also a traitor and scumbag for turning against Hizdahr. He is using a shitty loophole there to justify his coup and the subsequent sabotage of Dany's peace. If it turned out that Hizdahr was innocent - or Dany decided to forgive her lord husband his involvement with her enemies - then Barristan should and would lose his head over this after Dany's return.

You shouldn't have to specifically state that a KG has to protect a monarch's consort. That should be part of the job, especially in the monarch's absence - and even more so if the monarch might be dead and the consort his/her successor.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

If Jaime is scum, what are those six shining nights that let their king doom himself by brutally killing innocent people??

Jaime just murdered his king because he wanted to at a moment he could afford to do it. There was nothing moral about that, he was just following his basic ugly instincts.

The idea that the other men in Aerys II's KG were bad you would first have to establish that they knew about the wildfire plot (for which there is no evidence - especially in the case of the absent fellows, Hightower, Dayne, Whent), and that anybody expects a knight or KG to interfere with the king or his government when they are executing traitors and other criminals.

I mean, is there any indication Robb's knights and guards should have saved Rickard Karstark's life from the false king who was executing him, personally? Are there indications that people should have intervened when Joffrey commanded to execute Ned?

I don't think so.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Barristan thinks "he spent the better part of his life serving drunkards and madmen." He knows he's wasted his life but he is not consumed by regret, because he can always fall back on keeping his oath and doesnt have to live with stigma like Jaime. It is a bit of an unfair situation.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, right. Textual evidence for such ridiculous nonsense? The wildfire in the capital would threaten his own life as well as that of the new king and queen and their family.

 

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If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have had no choice but to obey . But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters , Selmy reflected. Now I am the lord commander, and it is hard to know which path is right .

 

It only takes that Aerys makes clear to Barristan his wish that he wants to see the city reduced to ash and Barristan would have to stand aside, your statement that there is a middle ground is partly true, Barristan would have to look for a way for protecting thhe King, the king's family comes behind the king and Aerys could not be bothered, while letting the city to its fate.

That without saying that the relatively "flexible" Barristan we see after being dismissed is rather different than the old stiff man he is both in AGOT and prior the Robellion.

Barristan is dismissed, and i have to say that Joff does have a point here, because he let drunk Robert kill himself with the boar, while any sane man would've understood that the idea is moronic and you can't let an alcoholic man take such decision, Barristan stood aside, he later feeling guilty confides that to Ned, who tells him that he was just doing his duty.

 

 

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His men brought him close. Ned steadied himself with a hand on the bedpost. He had only to look down at Robert to know how bad it was. “What …?” he began, his throat clenched. “A boar.” Lord Renly was still in his hunting greens, his cloak spattered with blood. “A devil,” the king husked. “My own fault. Too much wine, damn me to hell. Missed my thrust.” “And where were the rest of you?” Ned demanded of Lord Renly. “Where was Ser Barristan and the Kingsguard?” Renly’s mouth twitched. “My brother commanded us to stand aside and let him take the boar alone.”

 

Only people like Ned, people that are not sheep and do not hide behind Nuremberg defenses confront the kings's idiotic decisions, Barristan is not like Ned, not by longshot. He would've left King's Landing to its fate.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Your defending sister-fucking scum here, a man so corrupt he wants to joing a chaste order of knights to have some more incest sex. The man is disgusting just alone for that.

He was 15 years then, stupid and corrupt as it may be, it's better than Lewyn Martell who, being a full grown adult, joined by having a paramour and their not so scum protected him. This is why not so scum Barristan thinks about him.

 

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I swore no oath to Dorne, Ser Barristan told himself. But Lewyn Martell had been his Sworn Brother, back in the days when the bonds between the Kingsguard still went deep. I could not help Prince Lewyn on the Trident, but I can help his nephew now. Martell was dancing in a vipers' nest, and he did not even see the snakes. His continued presence, even after Daenerys had given herself to another before the eyes of gods and men, would provoke any husband, and Quentyn no longer had the queen to shield him from Hizdahr's wroth. Although …

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But the audacity to claim this man had no idea whose KG he was joining when his own father was the man's Hand and when he, Jaime Lannister, was in KL when he was fucked into agreeing to join the KG is utter shit. The man was at court. He would have seen his father, the king, and other people at court who would have talked about the king and his madness - just as Jaime himself would have seen it.

Robert and Stannis went to the court too... And for years they believed Tywin was Aerys, it's stated where Jaime's attention was, not in Aerys. And there is no evidence that no one ever bothered to brief Jaime about the shenanigans of the court or that even if they did, Jaime was actually paying attention.

So what's your point, that Jaime had to know it by force?? It's not convincing, you're trying to present your bias as fact.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As he later did at Harrenhal where he actually swore his vows. He could have decided not to do it then. He didn't, he wanted to the lackey of a lunatic. He got what he wanted.

It's not stated that he had a choice, otherwise Tywin wouldn't have resigned, he would have simply ordered his son to refuse Aerys,  

 

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“Father will never consent,” Jaime objected. “The king won’t ask him. And once it’s done, Father can’t object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne’s tongue torn out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand’s guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won’t stop this, either.” [...]  He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest. A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak. Jaime’s investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly— Cersei had judged that correctly— but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king while four lesser men took their turns dancing on knives in his father’s ill-fitting shoes.

None of that implies consent, he is commanded to present himself to king and say the words.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if you were magically right there - and that's pretty much impossible - then I still don't care about a man as stupid as to to not see that he was becoming the lackey of a lunatic. If you swear holy vows not knowing what you do it is your fault, too, you know. It is your duty to think and inform yourself before you act. Even if you are Jaime Lannister.

Fair enough.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL. Barristan is also a traitor and scumbag for turning against Hizdahr. He is using a shitty loophole there to justify his coup and the subsequent sabotage of Dany's peace. If it turned out that Hizdahr was innocent - or Dany decided to forgive her lord husband his involvement with her enemies - then Barristan should and would lose his head over this after Dany's return.

How and why your believe on the matter challenges Barristan knowledge on the matter?? What you believe will happen after Dany comes back is absolutely inmaterial to the topic, 

Given that we're arguing whether Barristan what Barristan would've done at King's Landing, i think that Barristan own thoughs tabout obeying orders to his sworn sovereign is what matters.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You shouldn't have to specifically state that a KG has to protect a monarch's consort. That should be part of the job, especially in the monarch's absence - and even more so if the monarch might be dead and the consort his/her successor.

Yet it isn't, not in Dany's case. So what's the point?? 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime just murdered his king because he wanted to at a moment he could afford to do it. There was nothing moral about that, he was just following his basic ugly instincts.

He was getting revenge, Aerys had shatteredhis life and world view, it was only natural for Jaime to pay him back in kind.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the other men in Aerys II's KG were bad you would first have to establish that they knew about the wildfire plot (for which there is no evidence - especially in the case of the absent fellows, Hightower, Dayne, Whent), and that anybody expects a knight or KG to interfere with the king or his government when they are executing traitors and other criminals.

You're arguing your strawman here, I've never argued that the they knew about the wildfire plot.  But that people believed someone had to put a reign or Aerys's vices, there is one person indeed who believed it, Jaime.

 

Quote

“You’re hurting me.” In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted’s screaming. “We are sworn to protect her as well,” Jaime had finally been driven to say. “We are,” Darry allowed, “but not from him.”

 

What traitors?? What criminals??

The ones that Aerys invent?? For what charges of treason were Rickard and his 200 men, the Mallisters and the Royces convicted?? It must've been very egregious otherwise, Hightower wouldn't have told Jaime what he did.

So yeah, they are scum, the lot of them, moral cowards who hide behind the "just following orders" words,  authentic bastards who enabled Aerys's worst vices. The best thing one can say about them is that most of them were great fighters.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, is there any indication Robb's knights and guards should have saved Rickard Karstark's life from the false king who was executing him, personally? Are there indications that people should have intervened when Joffrey commanded to execute Ned?

I don't think so.

False comparative as usual, Ned had confessed his "crimes", so he was a traitor, Karstark was indeed  guilty of the crimes he was charged, so he was a traitor.

Aerys made up the charges at the very best in Rickard's case or he didn't even bother to try when he asked for Ned's and Robert's heads just for for the great crime of breathing.

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

It only takes that Aerys makes clear to Barristan his wish that he wants to see the city reduced to ash and Barristan would have to stand aside, your statement that there is a middle ground is partly true, Barristan would have to look for a way for protecting thhe King, the king's family comes behind the king and Aerys could not be bothered, while letting the city to its fate.

That without saying that the relatively "flexible" Barristan we see after being dismissed is rather different than the old stiff man he is both in AGOT and prior the Robellion.

Barristan is dismissed, and i have to say that Joff does have a point here, because he let drunk Robert kill himself with the boar, while any sane man would've understood that the idea is moronic and you can't let an alcoholic man take such decision, Barristan stood aside, he later feeling guilty confides that to Ned, who tells him that he was just doing his duty.

Baseless speculation since we have no way to assess what Barristan would have done had he known about the wildfire plan.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was 15 years then, stupid and corrupt as it may be, it's better than Lewyn Martell who, being a full grown adult, joined by having a paramour and their not so scum protected him. This is why not so scum Barristan thinks about him.

Did Barristan knew about Lewyn Martell soiling his cloak?

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert and Stannis went to the court too... And for years they believed Tywin was Aerys, it's stated where Jaime's attention was, not in Aerys. And there is no evidence that no one ever bothered to brief Jaime about the shenanigans of the court or that even if they did, Jaime was actually paying attention.

LOL, Stannis the moron believed Tywin was Aerys during his first visit to court. Steffon apparently didn't bring Stannis there before or often.

To compare Stannis the moron with Jaime, the son of the Hand who had been at odds with the Mad King for most of Jaime's life is ludicrous.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

So what's your point, that Jaime had to know it by force?? It's not convincing, you're trying to present your bias as fact.

I don't give a damn whether Jaime knew or not - ignorance wouldn't save him from my jugdment here. If you join a knightly order you have to serve for life you should inform what kind of boss you are signing up with. If you accidentally become Hitler's lackey you have to eat that cake. You have no right to complain.

And it is silly for you or anyone would invent excuse for a fictional character who would never go as low as you. Jaime would not deny that he knew what Aerys was.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not stated that he had a choice, otherwise Tywin wouldn't have resigned, he would have simply ordered his son to refuse Aerys, 

None of that implies consent, he is commanded to present himself to king and say the words.

It is implied that Tywin couldn't do anything about it ... not that Jaime couldn't consent. He did consent to Cersei when they fucked, and she then told the king (or Varys, who may have put her up to that shit show, who then told the king) that Jaime Lannister wanted to be a KG.

If anyone could be commanded to join the KG there would be no need for vows nor need for Cersei to fuck Jaime into giving consent. In fact, if people could be forced to become KG the king would be fucked because forcing people to be KG would be a recipe for more KG kingslayers.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Given that we're arguing whether Barristan what Barristan would've done at King's Landing, i think that Barristan own thoughs tabout obeying orders to his sworn sovereign is what matters.

Nope, Barristan knowledge about the Mad King's crimes would inform his actions. And we have no idea he knew about the wildfire thing.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're arguing your strawman here, I've never argued that the they knew about the wildfire plot.  But that people believed someone had to put a reign or Aerys's vices, there is one person indeed who believed it, Jaime.

Jaime is just scum. He thinks he can judge an anointed king as a Kingsguard. If he wants to do that he should have become a lord or a historian, not a KG.

There are roles and positions in life where you cannot do certain things. If you are a Catholic priest you don't marry, if you join a chaste order of knights you don't fuck (your sister), and if you swear to obey and defend the king above all else you don't kill him.

Period. There is no middle ground and no excuse there.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

What traitors?? What criminals??

The ones that Aerys invent?? For what charges of treason were Rickard and his 200 men, the Mallisters and the Royces convicted?? It must've been very egregious otherwise, Hightower wouldn't have told Jaime what he did.

So yeah, they are scum, the lot of them, moral cowards who hide behind the "just following orders" words,  authentic bastards who enabled Aerys's worst vices. The best thing one can say about them is that most of them were great fighters.

I don't know those people were innocent of crimes. Do you? Perhaps they all were traitors, we don't get any insight into their actions. In fact, we don't even know for sure Robert and Ned weren't plotting treason already when the order to execute them arrived - we only know Jon then decided to not obey that order and raise his own banners in rebellion.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

False comparative as usual, Ned had confessed his "crimes", so he was a traitor, Karstark was indeed  guilty of the crimes he was charged, so he was a traitor.

To who? The false king Robb Stark? Give me a break.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Aerys made up the charges at the very best in Rickard's case or he didn't even bother to try when he asked for Ned's and Robert's heads just for for the great crime of breathing.

How do you know? Were you there? Did you read books I'm not familiar with?

[Lord Lannister]

Barristan may be a brave man on the field of battle, but he's a moral coward and a hypocrite. So long as he has a place and position that feeds into his tunnel vision of honor he'll turn a blind eye to everything else. It doesn't matter if his king is mad, burns people for fun, rapes his wife, throws the land into rebellion. Barristan follows orders. He'll condemn Jaime for killing Aerys yet reminiscence that he shouldn't have saved the mad king at Duskendale. He had zero problem taking King Robert's pardon and serving blindly while Robert drank and pissed the realm away in the most literal fashion either. Yet he'll tell Dany how in his heart he was always true to House Targaryen but where was he when she and Viserys could've used a strong influence and protector to raise them? He only went over to her after he lost his position in Joffrey's court and she looked the best option out of the rest of the pretenders. 

[frenin]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Baseless speculation since we have no way to assess what Barristan would have done had he known about the wildfire plan.

Come on now, we have Barristan following dumb orders that endanger his king because his king commands it, we have Barristan  saying that he follows the order given from his King/Queen.

You want to prove me wrong?? There is the text, but what you should not do is state one thing and then when proved wrong, claim that we don't know what he would've done in that specific context. That's bad faith.

But you're right, we don't know what he would've done, so why comparing him to Jaime or acting as if his opinion matters something without the full picture?? Hell, there is the possibility that Barristan was so horrified that he killed Aerys himself. But there is absolutely nothing that says that if Aerys had told him "I want to burn this city, stand aside", he wouldn't have done that.

Barristan is a robot, like every good kingsguard, and robots do not judge their kings.

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Did Barristan knew about Lewyn Martell soiling his cloak?

Ofc he knew, they all knew.

 

Quote

"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"
"… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."
"No," said Quentyn, red-faced, "but …"

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, Stannis the moron believed Tywin was Aerys during his first visit to court. Steffon apparently didn't bring Stannis there before or often.

To compare Stannis the moron with Jaime, the son of the Hand who had been at odds with the Mad King for most of Jaime's life is ludicrous.

This is indeed funny, we're told that Jaime only paid attention to warrior stuff and his sister, yet you  with no evidence whatsoever, decide that Jaime had to know because he was in court, when it's pointed out that other highborn nobles went to court and did not see Aerys you dismiss it because... Sure, because it doesn't suit your bias. 

We don't even know that Jaime knew or cared about his father and Aerys being at odds for most of his life. So what's your evidence?? 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't give a damn whether Jaime knew or not - ignorance wouldn't save him from my jugdment here. If you join a knightly order you have to serve for life you should inform what kind of boss you are signing up with. If you accidentally become Hitler's lackey you have to eat that cake. You have no right to complain.

And it is silly for you or anyone would invent excuse for a fictional character who would never go as low as you. Jaime would not deny that he knew what Aerys was.

Ofc you don't give a damn, otherwise you would not be arguing the facts.

It's silly for you to invent evidences for a fictional character, i don't need to invent excuses, just present the facts as they are. It's ofc absolutely astounding that you for one part accuse other of invent excuses and for the other part you affirm without shame that "Jaime would not deny that he knew what Aerys was"...

If you're arguing that a 15 year should've known better, I agree, still is a little harsh judgement.

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is implied that Tywin couldn't do anything about it ... not that Jaime couldn't consent. He did consent to Cersei when they fucked, and she then told the king (or Varys, who may have put her up to that shit show, who then told the king) that Jaime Lannister wanted to be a KG.

If anyone could be commanded to join the KG there would be no need for vows nor need for Cersei to fuck Jaime into giving consent. In fact, if people could be forced to become KG the king would be fucked because forcing people to be KG would be a recipe for more KG kingslayers.

Here we go again arguing with the text.

 

Quote

A moon’s turn later, a royal raven arrived at Casterly Rock to inform him that he had been chosen for the Kingsguard. He was commanded to present himself to the king during the great tourney at Harrenhal to say his vows and don his cloak.

There is nothing there that implies consent, nothing. 

Sure Cersei told them that Jaime was ready but it doesn't seem like they later gave him any options,

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is just scum. He thinks he can judge an anointed king as a Kingsguard. If he wants to do that he should have become a lord or a historian, not a KG.

Ah, with thoughts like that is how tyrants are born.

Jaime is scum because he dares to judge a monster, bravo.

Had those, absolutely not scum. Kingsguard judged Aerys, perhaps he would still sit the Iron Throne and his family would have ever been ousted or killed, yet by enabling a madman...

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are roles and positions in life where you cannot do certain things. If you are a Catholic priest you don't marry, if you join a chaste order of knights you don't fuck (your sister), and if you swear to obey and defend the king above all else you don't kill him.

Period. There is no middle ground and no excuse there.

 Jaime weighed, alledgedly, Aerys's life against half a million lifes and decided that Aerys wasn't worth that much. I do agree with that thought, 

To hell with the double standards lords and their fake chivalry. Period.

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know those people were innocent of crimes. Do you? Perhaps they all were traitors, we don't get any insight into their actions. In fact, we don't even know for sure Robert and Ned weren't plotting treason already when the order to execute them arrived - we only know Jon then decided to not obey that order and raise his own banners in rebellion.

This is just ludicrous. Sure, Ned did plot against his king, we see that when... Wait, that never happens. The Hand burned was also guilty  of something, it's Aerys after all, killing people willy nilly is not his thing!

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To who? The false king Robb Stark? Give me a break.

His liege Robb Stark,  the King he had made, you see there was a hype speech and Karstark agreed with it saying that Robb being king was the only term he was willing to accept, I'll give you two breaks, don't worry.

Killing hostages goes also against the laws of warfare. So.

 

 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know? Were you there? Did you read books I'm not familiar with?

Apparently so. Since, there is a book in which Aerys has a point in trying to kill Ned and Robert.