What does Barristan think about Jaime's Kingslaying?

[Curled Finger]

Seems to me Barristan Selmy has narrow views and a marked lack of information regarding the King slaying.  While I adore Selmy it is not lost on me how little he actually knows of the family he served so loyally.  We read zero thoughts regarding Rhaegar & Lyanna and Selmy spends no time on intrigue or figuring out what's what.   I don't know that Selmy is a hypocrite so much as a man who appraises things according to his own very black and white assessments.  And he's human which makes him fallible and imperfect.  The point of Selmy's character is service.  I am certain he would have continued in Lannister service had he not been forced into retirement.   A man like that cannot take ease in a life without service.  

The truth is Selmy was not brought into anyone's confidence.  The reasons for this could be many, but seem to be his simple uprightness.  Perhaps he wasn't considered trustworthy to those who felt forced into taking lower roads in order to achieve greater good?  

[The Commentator]

It’s not just Ser Barristan who has a low opinion of Jaime.  Ned wasn’t a fan.  I’m not a fan of Kingslayer Jaime.  Jaime is a very bad guy.  This is a man who could not tell right from wrong.  He’s not a gray character.  He’s very dark.  Dont believe for a second that this dirtbag has changed.  Attempted killing of Bran and the murder of King Aerys are only a few examples of his dirty deeds.  He violated guest rights at Winterfell.  He knows his son has no right to the throne and continues to play along.  

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Seems to me Barristan Selmy has narrow views and a marked lack of information regarding the King slaying.  While I adore Selmy it is not lost on me how little he actually knows of the family he served so loyally.  We read zero thoughts regarding Rhaegar & Lyanna and Selmy spends no time on intrigue or figuring out what's what.   I don't know that Selmy is a hypocrite so much as a man who appraises things according to his own very black and white assessments.  And he's human which makes him fallible and imperfect.  The point of Selmy's character is service.  I am certain he would have continued in Lannister service had he not been forced into retirement.   A man like that cannot take ease in a life without service.  

The truth is Selmy was not brought into anyone's confidence.  The reasons for this could be many, but seem to be his simple uprightness.  Perhaps he wasn't considered trustworthy to those who felt forced into taking lower roads in order to achieve greater good?  

I don't think Barristan is particular deep or interesting as a person. He seems to have a very traditional approach to knighthood and religion (think how he actually devotely prays each morning).

But he has a working moral compass - meaning there is no way he would have been a part of the wildfire holocaust of KL.

In fact, George's take on this story is pretty weird. What kind of people are Rossart and his cronies? Their own homes are in KL, too. What rewards could the doomed king who apparently planned to burn with his city (and perhaps be transformed into a living dragon) have offered them to do what they apparently planned to do? Did they intend to die in the fire, too? If not, then where did they intend to live after KL was a burned ruin? What about the family and friends they must have had?

This isn't a scenario where some soldiers are commanded to execute some last command without not really knowing what's going to happen - it is scientists/sorcerers participating in and implementing a plan (singlehandedly, for the most part) which would destroy their home and possibly kill themselves and their loved ones. Are they supposed to have been part of some doomsday cult? If so, then it is odd that they all pleaded with Jaime for their lives when he came for them.

To imagine that Barristan Selmy would stand there and watch while KL burned is ludicrous. None of Aerys' Seven would have done that. They may not have killed the king, but they may tried to find another way to stop him.

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Barristan is particular deep or interesting as a person. He seems to have a very traditional approach to knighthood and religion (think how he actually devotely prays each morning).

But he has a working moral compass - meaning there is no way he would have been a part of the wildfire holocaust of KL.

In fact, George's take on this story is pretty weird. What kind of people are Rossart and his cronies? Their own homes are in KL, too. What rewards could the doomed king who apparently planned to burn with his city (and perhaps be transformed into a living dragon) have offered them to do what they apparently planned to do? Did they intend to die in the fire, too? If not, then where did they intend to live after KL was a burned ruin? What about the family and friends they must have had?

This isn't a scenario where some soldiers are commanded to execute some last command without not really knowing what's going to happen - it is scientists/sorcerers participating in and implementing a plan (singlehandedly, for the most part) which would destroy their home and possibly kill themselves and their loved ones. Are they supposed to have been part of some doomsday cult? If so, then it is odd that they all pleaded with Jaime for their lives when he came for them.

To imagine that Barristan Selmy would stand there and watch while KL burned is ludicrous. None of Aerys' Seven would have done that. They may not have killed the king, but they may tried to find another way to stop him.

Sorta goes back to the conversation about alternatives to killing Aerys.  Could have been the company I kept when first reading ASOIAF, but I always had the sense the pyromancers were nuts like the R'hllorists.  Like Aerion Brightflame.  That ilk.  

A bunch of them sat around and watched Rickard Stark burn to death in his armor and Brandon Stark choke to death trying to save him.   Maybe this was a more common practice than we are told and maybe Aerys had really unstable people around him.  Still, I have a hard time seeing Selmy not at least trying to intervene though we are not told he did, but it makes me wonder what Dayne and Hightower and Whent did or didn't do at the time.  

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorta goes back to the conversation about alternatives to killing Aerys.  Could have been the company I kept when first reading ASOIAF, but I always had the sense the pyromancers were nuts like the R'hllorists.  Like Aerion Brightflame.  That ilk.

Oh, well, people get strange ideas there. I'm not sure what that is, perhaps this whole 'Mad King' epitome? The idea that in this world burning people alive is that evil a punishment compared to death by crow cage? The idea that if a guy is called 'the Mad King' he must be the worst guy ever, and everything he and his people did must have been completely nuts?

Could very well be those guys were nuts ... but if they were we should have been told. I mean, technically Rossart should have had time and opportunity to get away from the fires considering he knew where the wildfire was and would be the one who organized the ignition process. If he intended to do that - where the hell would he go afterwards?

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

A bunch of them sat around and watched Rickard Stark burn to death in his armor and Brandon Stark choke to death trying to save him.   Maybe this was a more common practice than we are told and maybe Aerys had really unstable people around him.  Still, I have a hard time seeing Selmy not at least trying to intervene though we are not told he did, but it makes me wonder what Dayne and Hightower and Whent did or didn't do at the time.  

The Stark executions are pretty extreme, but not all that far away from young Joff commanding people to fight to the death when they were just having a squabble over some land. This kind of thing didn't cause anyone to talk about 'Mad Joffrey' or 'Joffrey the Cruel'.

And we don't know any context of the Stark trials so far. Did they enrage and provoke and threaten the king before? What were they actually accused of? Were they offered some sort of way out if they confessed their crimes (after all, we know that Brandon's former squire Ethan Glover survived the entire ordeal)?

I personally imagine that the other KG were having the same issues - or perhaps even more severe issues - with Aerys II than Jaime did considering many of them had known the royal family for years and decades, serving under Aerys' father and grandfather - they just didn't express them or allowed others to see them the way Jaime did.

I interpret Darry and Hightower pushing Jaime to accept how things are to prevent him from doing/trying something stupid - like killing or intervening with the king when he does something horrible.

We do have sufficient reason to believe that Dayne and Whent weren't at court because they flat-out preferred Rhaegar to the Mad King and were to various degrees complicit in Rhaegar's plan to limit his father's power/depose him/whatever. And that Hightower ended up joining them at that tower also speaks pretty loudly, as does the willingness of Selmy and Darry and Martell to accompany Rhaegar to the Trident rather than remain in KL to protect Aerys there (one assumes they could have insisted to stay with the king no matter what Rhaegar wanted them to do).

[Ivan Tsarevich]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could very well be those guys were nuts ... but if they were we should have been told.

Well... ASoS, Jaime V.

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He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

"Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen's eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys's new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted." It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. "I'd thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets.

"My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father's son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all." He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. "Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

You do have a point with Belis and his offer of gold and Garigus pleading for mercy, though.

[frenin]

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Baseless speculation since we have no way to assess what Barristan would have done had he known about the wildfire plan.

 

 

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But he has a working moral compass - meaning there is no way he would have been a part of the wildfire holocaust of KL.

 

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To imagine that Barristan Selmy would stand there and watch while KL burned is ludicrous. None of Aerys' Seven would have done that. They may not have killed the king, but they may tried to find another way to stop him.

 

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In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.

Oh, the irony.

[Orm]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Oh, the irony.

 This guy/gal considers his own head-canon/bias the word and truth of Martin himself.... Even if the actual material says otherwise.... And he sometimes does make it sound convincing.....

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Well... ASoS, Jaime V.

You do have a point with Belis and his offer of gold and Garigus pleading for mercy, though.

That sort of implied they enjoyed figuring out/showing how one had to place the wildfire to get the best effect - they look like scientists really looking forward to see the first atom bomb go off for the whole joy of it.

But if the Oppenheimer had been doing that for a guy who intended to blow up Washington, D.C. or New York it would have been somewhat odd, especially if they had had friends and families and homes in those places.

I mean, the way George presents the wildfire nonsense we have to believe that only the king, Rossart, Garigus, and Belis and perhaps a few other unnamed fellows Jaime killed knew about the plan - else people still alive would remember where the hell they had moved all that wildfire on behalf of the Mad King. Is it really imaginable that this plan could have been implemented with very few people knowing about it, especially among the alchemists?

I mean, we can imagine ways how to set it up so you can ignite the fire without being consumed by it yourself - sort of like they present the destruction of the Great Sept in the show. But for that you need workers and servants preparing stuff. It wouldn't do just to move a lot of wildfire to various places - that one could be doing using people who don't know what they are doing, but if they don't know what they are moving around they would probably not handle the wildfire as carefully as they should and the city should have burned when the wildfire was hidden. They might think nothing about storing some wildfire in the abandoned Dragonpit ... but beneath the Great Sept or in Flea Bottom or elsewhere in the city? Not very likely.

To actually ignite the stuff the Mad King would either need a pretty big number of suicidal servants, or a complicated mechanism which delays the holocaust sufficiently so that a small number of people can go to every place where the substance is hidden to trigger a chain reaction and get away before the city is ablaze.

That is a rather complex thing. Because one imagines that Rossart didn't plan just to ignite one stash of wildfire but arrange it so that multiple or all of the stashes would be ignited. If one place in the city started to burn then people would have more than enough time to escape the city through the seven gates.

But I guess I'm overthinking this ;-).

[Loose Bolt]

It seems that alchemists have some relatives among goldcloaks. Or troops of father of queen Cercei sacked Kings Landing and killed and raped a lot their relatives and made them much poorer by stealing and burning down their property. After that queen mother and king Joffrey had PR operation including killing babies and hunting people with crossbow. But members of city watch does not seem to mind about those little things and Lannister government does not seem to have any problems about loyalty of watchmen.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

That sort of implied they enjoyed figuring out/showing how one had to place the wildfire to get the best effect - they look like scientists really looking forward to see the first atom bomb go off for the whole joy of it.

Sure, that too. Such a reasonable assumption however does not need to exclude other possible interpretations.

Here's another quote. ASoS, Jaime II.

Quote

Jaime's investiture freed him from Lysa Tully. Elsewise, nothing went as planned. His father had never been more furious. He could not object openly—Cersei had judged that correctly—but he resigned the Handship on some thin pretext and returned to Casterly Rock, taking his daughter with him. Instead of being together, Cersei and Jaime just changed places, and he found himself alone at court, guarding a mad king while four lesser men took their turns dancing on knives in his father's ill-fitting shoes. So swiftly did the Hands rise and fall that Jaime remembered their heraldry better than their faces. The horn-of-plenty Hand and the dancing griffins Hand had both been exiled, the mace-and-dagger Hand dipped in wildfire and burned alive. Lord Rossart had been the last. His sigil had been a burning torch; an unfortunate choice, given the fate of his predecessor, but the alchemist had been elevated largely because he shared the king's passion for fire. I ought to have drowned Rossart instead of gutting him.

So, 

1. Aerys was a pyrophiliac.
2. Rossart shared his passion.
3. Belis and Garigus, in different instance but in related context, are stated to be same as Rossart.

Thus, as long pyrophilia qualifies, we can reasonably derive from the text that these three alchemists were, indeed, "nuts".

On 8/12/2020 at 4:34 PM, Lord Varys said:

But I guess I'm overthinking this ;-).

That's a bit contagious, you know ;-).

I mean, as you say, there's no reason to just write them off as a doomsday cult. Not only did Belis try to bargain and Garigus weep for mercy; Rossart too fought when Jaime came on him. ASoS, Jaime II.

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Rossart at least had tried to make a fight of it, though if truth be told he fought like an alchemist.

Now Rossart differs from his colleagues in the sense that he did not accept a loss. He might very well have continued with his mission had he prevailed. However, Belis and Garigus singularly failed to act on the plan despite having a time window of several days before Jaime came for them. ASoS, Jaime V.

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"When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers. Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well. Belis offered me gold, and Garigus wept for mercy. Well, a sword's more merciful than fire, but I don't think Garigus much appreciated the kindness I showed him."

So apparently they had no fresh orders to act. But did they not know that Aerys was dead? Even if they had no standing in-the-case-of-emergency orders, why did they not improvise and act independently?

Were they in the full knowledge of the plan? ASoS, Jaime V.

Quote

"Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat.

Rossart. The guy who cooked Lord Rickard. The one who "shared the king's passion". The man who was sent to the critical mission and fought the intercepter. And the alchemist who was elevated to the lordship and to the Hand of the King. Aerys did not, in this instance, share his vision with Belis, or Garigus, or the three together. Was it Rossart who knew everything?

However, preventing the further messengers is what Jaime gives as his rationale to kill Aerys. So, given this, we can draw the conclusion that the two must have known enough to be able to carry out the plan themselves. And they didn't. Why? Did the rebels enforce a curfew? And if they were hiding, then what for? To act, or to escape? Was this gold Belis offered a means for the latter? And if they were willing to escape, and live, wouldn't they (and why not Rossart too) then indeed want to have the means for escape also in the case where the plan was succesfully executed?

Mind you, I'm willing to accept Rossart as a fanatic suicide bomber. Why would it be necessary to assume that he expected to escape the city? He knew that the Lannisters were inside the walls, whether that means the city or the Red Keep. ASoS, Jaime II.

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When Aerys saw the blood on his blade, he demanded to know if it was Lord Tywin's. "I want him dead, the traitor. I want his head, you'll bring me his head, or you'll burn with all the rest. All the traitors. Rossart says they are inside the walls! He's gone to make them a warm welcome. Whose blood? Whose?"

And besides the alchemists, there are Varys and Chelsted to consider...

But this is supposed to be a Barry thread.

[broken one]

On 8/11/2020 at 10:54 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Barristan is particular deep or interesting as a person. He seems to have a very traditional approach to knighthood and religion (think how he actually devotely prays each morning).

I could swear that in one of his chapters in adwd selmy thinks to himself he is not (and never was) a pious person and that he turns to the warriors figure mostly in order not to feel so alone in the foreign, strange land.

[Lord Varys]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:50 PM, broken one said:

I could swear that in one of his chapters in adwd selmy thinks to himself he is not (and never was) a pious person and that he turns to the warriors figure mostly in order not to feel so alone in the foreign, strange land.

Might be, it has been a pretty long time since I read those chapters. It was more about the feeling of them, Barristan being a rather conventional and unimaginative chap. And the idea that he is so ignorant about court intrigue and stuff is also very hard to swallow, considering he sat on the Small Council for fifteen years, and spent decades as the close confidant of a number of kings. One should expect him to have overheard/witnessed a thousand shady deals, and offered his opinion on a lot of ugly things the government of King Robert discussed.

Nobody would have turned to him to implement any shady plans, but he would have been aware of them all the same.

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

Sure, that too. Such a reasonable assumption however does not need to exclude other possible interpretations.

Here's another quote. ASoS, Jaime II.

So, 

1. Aerys was a pyrophiliac.
2. Rossart shared his passion.
3. Belis and Garigus, in different instance but in related context, are stated to be same as Rossart.

Thus, as long pyrophilia qualifies, we can reasonably derive from the text that these three alchemists were, indeed, "nuts".

Well, I never doubted that they were into fire - everybody interested in wildfire cannot be abhorred by fire, one assumes. But one should keep in mind that this is given through Jaime's POV and he clearly doesn't view people who like burning things in a positive light. His view of Cersei's burning of the Tower of the Hand is pretty distorted by his view of the Mad King. Cersei doesn't like fire or burning people, she just enjoyed her triumph over a structure that, for her, symbolized male domination.

We should also not forget, I think, that we have to assume Jaime killed more alchemists than the men we knew, if Hallyne's remarks are any indication ... and we want to take this thing seriously overall. Three people alone couldn't really implement this plan.

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

I mean, as you say, there's no reason to just write them off as a doomsday cult. Not only did Belis try to bargain and Garigus weep for mercy; Rossart too fought when Jaime came on him. ASoS, Jaime II.

Now Rossart differs from his colleagues in the sense that he did not accept a loss. He might very well have continued with his mission had he prevailed. However, Belis and Garigus singularly failed to act on the plan despite having a time window of several days before Jaime came for them. ASoS, Jaime V.

So apparently they had no fresh orders to act. But did they not know that Aerys was dead? Even if they had no standing in-the-case-of-emergency orders, why did they not improvise and act independently?

Were they in the full knowledge of the plan? ASoS, Jaime V.

Anybody knowing that the king had commanded to store wildfire at crucial places in the city would have realized the plan was to burn the city down. It would not make any sense to do this if they just wanted to store stuff (that was done in the Guildhall, where they had means to prevent accidents with their sand-filled chambers and all that) or if they wanted to use the substance during a siege (then it should have been transported to the seven gatehouses instead to the Dragonpit, the Great Sept, Flea Bottom, etc.).

In that sense we do have to assume the other guys knew/suspected what the king's true intentions were, but had no intention of going through with it after his death.

Which is kind of odd since the original plan would only be implemented if the king was convinced he would die soon unless he fled the city.

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

However, preventing the further messengers is what Jaime gives as his rationale to kill Aerys.

Does he? I hear people giving that excuse, but considering that Jaime wasn't there when Rossart was given his instructions and that he didn't ask Aerys II whether he had sent out other men to deliver the messages Rossart had been given (in case Rossart were killed/stopped on the way) I don't buy the claim Jaime killed the Mad King to prevent him from burning the city.

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

So, given this, we can draw the conclusion that the two must have known enough to be able to carry out the plan themselves. And they didn't. Why? Did the rebels enforce a curfew? And if they were hiding, then what for? To act, or to escape? Was this gold Belis offered a means for the latter? And if they were willing to escape, and live, wouldn't they (and why not Rossart too) then indeed want to have the means for escape also in the case where the plan was succesfully executed?

Those are interesting questions, but we can say the alchemists would have had the means to at least light their own wildfire stored at the Guildhall - and that would have burned down the city eventually, even if they hadn't had the opportunity to light all/many of the other stashes.

Jaime can only have hunted them down days later, after Robert's arrival, possibly only after his coronation when it was clear that Jaime was allowed to continue to serve on the KG.

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

Mind you, I'm willing to accept Rossart as a fanatic suicide bomber. Why would it be necessary to assume that he expected to escape the city? He knew that the Lannisters were inside the walls, whether that means the city or the Red Keep. ASoS, Jaime II.

Of course, question is why the guy would have thought burning the city was a great idea. It is not impossible that he had no problem going down with the king, but one would like to know the reasoning/explanation behind such decisions/beliefs.

Those alchemists must be pretty smart people, all things considered, and even if they were cynical psychopaths without empathy for whatever family and friends they had, they must have had property in the city. Didn't they care about any of that, at least?

On 8/14/2020 at 12:45 PM, TsarGrey said:

And besides the alchemists, there are Varys and Chelsted to consider...

Chelsted eventually found out and didn't approve. And Varys must have known and may not approved, either. I'd not be surprised if Varys goaded Jaime into killing Rossart and the king.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

On 8/14/2020 at 5:50 PM, broken one said:

I could swear that in one of his chapters in adwd selmy thinks to himself he is not (and never was) a pious person and that he turns to the warriors figure mostly in order not to feel so alone in the foreign, strange land.

The Discarded Knight chapter?

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The day was young and fresh, and yet he felt bone-tired, as if he'd fought all night. The older he got, the less sleep Ser Barristan seemed to need. As a squire he could sleep ten hours a night and still be yawning when he stumbled out onto the practice yard. At three-and-sixty he found that five hours a night was more than enough. Last night, he had scarce slept at all. His bedchamber was a small cell off the queen's apartments, originally slave quarters; his furnishings consisted of a bed, a chamber pot, a wardrobe for his clothing, even a chair should he want to sit. On a bedside table he kept a beeswax candle and a small carving of the Warrior. Though he was not a pious man, the carving made him feel less alone here in this queer alien city, and it was to that he had turned in the black watches of night. Shield me from these doubts that gnaw at me, he had prayed, and give me the strength to do what is right. But neither prayer nor dawn had brought him certainty.

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, I never doubted that they were into fire - everybody interested in wildfire cannot be abhorred by fire, one assumes. But one should keep in mind that this is given through Jaime's POV and he clearly doesn't view people who like burning things in a positive light. His view of Cersei's burning of the Tower of the Hand is pretty distorted by his view of the Mad King. Cersei doesn't like fire or burning people, she just enjoyed her triumph over a structure that, for her, symbolized male domination.

We should also not forget, I think, that we have to assume Jaime killed more alchemists than the men we knew, if Hallyne's remarks are any indication ... and we want to take this thing seriously overall. Three people alone couldn't really implement this plan.

Jaime's trauma with fire and the people associated comes from his experiences in the Aerys' court, not from experience prior to that, no? So Rossart & co., unlike Cersei, should not benefit from the doubt caused by Jaime's views on Aerys. They are themselves part of that dynamic.

Sure, it's possible there's more there than we know. (Say, Jaime himself could know where the wildfire stashes are, as he "heard it all".) However, we, or at least I, do not actually know that those people exist, on the contrary, the alchemists "did not even trust their own acolytes to help." As you yourself may occasionally voice in the military threads, George does not really care about the logistics.

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Anybody knowing that the king had commanded to store wildfire at crucial places in the city would have realized the plan was to burn the city down. It would not make any sense to do this if they just wanted to store stuff (that was done in the Guildhall, where they had means to prevent accidents with their sand-filled chambers and all that) or if they wanted to use the substance during a siege (then it should have been transported to the seven gatehouses instead to the Dragonpit, the Great Sept, Flea Bottom, etc.).

In that sense we do have to assume the other guys knew/suspected what the king's true intentions were, but had no intention of going through with it after his death.

Which is kind of odd since the original plan would only be implemented if the king was convinced he would die soon unless he fled the city.

Fair enough. Tinfoil below.

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Does he? I hear people giving that excuse, but considering that Jaime wasn't there when Rossart was given his instructions and that he didn't ask Aerys II whether he had sent out other men to deliver the messages Rossart had been given (in case Rossart were killed/stopped on the way) I don't buy the claim Jaime killed the Mad King to prevent him from burning the city.

He certainly does give that as his rationale, that's a piece of data we're given. If that's in doubt, check the quote from Jaime V, ASoS, in the post you quote. As for if it's true? Well, Jaime himself does not indicate that he is lying to Brienne. "Why am I telling" in Jaime V does not translate to "Why am I trying to convince". He does have a motive though. The same chapter.

Quote

That pricked him back to anger. "Are you as thick as a castle wall? That was an apology. I am tired of fighting with you. What say we make a truce?"

"Truces are built on trust. Would you have me trust—"

And as Roose later warns us, Lannisters lie. Read it in any way you prefer, I'm not going to try convincing you.

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Those are interesting questions, but we can say the alchemists would have had the means to at least light their own wildfire stored at the Guildhall - and that would have burned down the city eventually, even if they hadn't had the opportunity to light all/many of the other stashes.

Jaime can only have hunted them down days later, after Robert's arrival, possibly only after his coronation when it was clear that Jaime was allowed to continue to serve on the KG.

If Jaime was indeed kept in sight, due the demand by Ned for example, that'd explain why he didn't go after them sooner. However, both Jaime and Tywin are arrogant and independent people, and they have an army present. I'm actually receptive to the idea (thanks!) but I'd assume it'd chafe them.

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Of course, question is why the guy would have thought burning the city was a great idea. It is not impossible that he had no problem going down with the king, but one would like to know the reasoning/explanation behind such decisions/beliefs.

Those alchemists must be pretty smart people, all things considered, and even if they were cynical psychopaths without empathy for whatever family and friends they had, they must have had property in the city. Didn't they care about any of that, at least?

Here's the tinfoil you were promised: Aerys indeed believed that he would transform to a dragon, and he (with Jaime not knowing this) shared this belief with the alchemists, who were receptive to the idea. (Recall Hallyne asking Tyrion about the dragons in ACoK.) The "greatest funeral pyre of them all" could, depending of the combined arcane knowledge of the initiated, double as a massive human sacrifice including the royal blood of Aerys himself, his descendants Rhaenys and Aegon, and other royal descendants such as Elia and Jaime (descendant to the Kings of the Rock). This would also shear Rhaegar's branch from the line of succession, resulting to a clearer path to King Viserys III. However, as Aerys, Rhaenys, Aegon and even Elia with her Targaryen blood all died, there was no longer a reason to try carrying out the plan, as all people (save Robert later and possible Targaryen descendants such as Longwaters) allegedly capable for transforming to the dragons were dead.

/tinfoil. We have no reason to assume that these alleged loved ones of the alchemists existed. Occam's razor. But if they did, we can just assume that the alchemists told them to escape the city. Shouldn't attract much attention, rebels were coming. Or perhaps Aerys fell to his familiar modus operandi, (demonstrated with Jaime and Elia with her children,) and used them as hostages to ensure the loyalty of the alchemists.

As for property, (tinfoil back) who cares about that when there are dragons in the table? Kraznys and the rest of the Good Masters certainly bargained (tinfoil off). Also, the king who left a flowing treasury (and could be generous to those who pleased him) should have no problem in reimbursing the losses of his loyal servants should he so choose. In advance if necessary. Recall Belis' gold?

On 8/16/2020 at 12:36 AM, Lord Varys said:

Chelsted eventually found out and didn't approve. And Varys must have known and may not approved, either. I'd not be surprised if Varys goaded Jaime into killing Rossart and the king.

Yeah, but what did he know and how did he come to know it? Jaime, who to be fair is insulting and dismissive to quite a few, assesses him as "not utterly stupid", which hardly is the highest praise one can imagine. And he thought him craven, but he did demonstrate courage. So either Jaime is way off or Lord Chelsted outperformed himself. Note also that Chelsted is an Eddard Stark -style character. He snooped the secrets in the court and resigned over a principled clash of opinions with his king.

So what was Varys about? Think about his pattern to close in to the Hands one at time. Ned, Tyrion, (Tywin post-Blackwater?). So did Varys tip off Chelsted? Did he prop his bravery? And even if we assume that Jaime is correct and Chelsted became suspicious on his own, couldn't Varys then feed and lead those suspicions?

As for Varys goading Jaime: just no. First, Jaime thinks that Aerys wanted Varys to watch him, which (if he also thought that then) would make him unreceptive. Also, Jaime could just report any overtures to the king, making Varys himself vulnerable. (Yep, applies to Chelsted too, but it'd be easy for Varys to give Chelsted remote and/or indirect hints instead of personal overtures if he thought that was a concern.) It's unnecessary risk to the both of them, unless you're thinking some remote action like the one Varys used on Barristan. Also, neither gives any hint of it that I can recall. And Varys hardly deserves any credit for making Jaime familiar with the plan. Aerys is enough for that, and Jaime was the only KG present.

And second, such influence would, arguably, steal the thunder of the most defining act of Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer. If his most important decision is not wholly his own but influenced by the outside manipulator, is that particular human heart truly in conflict with itself? Perhaps, but not only.

However, and seriously, let's cut this detour. We are completely off topic. Should you choose to reply, I'll read it, but unless the circumstances change, I'll take a step back.