(f)dany

[Megorova]

@Sigella

I know that in-world-rumours mentioned only Jeyne, the theory about Larra/Serenei is my own. One of them. Another one of mine is that Jeyne was Aegon's daughter, and that the real reason why he sent her to Harrenhal, is because she got pregnant from him, and later gave birth to the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was presented to people of 7K as bastard-son of Lucas Lothston - Manfryd. I think that his nickname was Manfryd of the black hood, because he had Targaryen silver-gold hair, unlike his fake father, Lucas, who was a red-head, so he was always wearing black hood to hide his hair-color. During First Blackfyre Rebellion he at first sided with Blackfyres, but then betrayed them. I think that for that betrayal, he was legitimized by King Daeron, as Manfryd Lothston. Though, even though he got legitimized as Lucas' son, he still didn't got Harrenhal, it was inherited by some other Lothston, and eventually was ruled by Danella Lothston. Then Manfryd went to Braavos, to other children of Aegon IV, that never were acknowledged by him - to Otheryses, children of the First Black Pearl. With one of Otherys-girls he fathered a son, who was Petyr Baelish' great grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos. Then Manfryd left that woman and their child, returned to Westeros, and became a Whent (either took a new lastname, like Orys Baratheon or Daemon Waters/Blackfyre, or thru marriage, like Joffrey Lydenn became Joffrey Lannister), and entered into service of House Lothston as a knight. Years later he and his legitimate children orchestrated dawnfall of House Lothston, and as a reward for their supposed help to bring down Mad Danelle, Whents finally got Harrenhal. This Bastard of Harrenhal, secret son of Aegon and Jeyne, is a shared ancestor of Petyr Baelish and Tully-children of Minisa Whent. Littlefinger is a third cousin to Cat, Lysa and Edmure.

So, currently in the story there are many characters, who are fruits of incest, like Shiera Seastar (child of Larra/Serenei and her own son Aegon), Craster's children, Petyr Baelish, Starks of younger generation, and Robert Arryn.

[CamiloRP]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:37 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

God, why are so many theories based on some horrific form of incest

I think I didn't explained myself correctly, the theory is that Dany is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's daughter

[CamiloRP]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:03 AM, kissdbyfire said:

More importantly, why are there so many “theories” that are completely unsupported by the text? 

The essay I'm talking about showed many examples about how it's actually supported by the test (Dany seeing herself as rhaegar, her having to remember who she is and such)

[CamiloRP]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:08 PM, Lord Lannister said:

I guess someone took the statement of Rhaegar being a bad ass mother fucker too literally. 

The theory said Dany is Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter

[CamiloRP]

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/149289-why-i-believe-dany-is-the-daughter-of-lyanna-and-rhaegar/

 

This may be the one, thanks a lot!

[kissdbyfire]

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The essay I'm talking about showed many examples about how it's actually supported by the test (Dany seeing herself as rhaegar, her having to remember who she is and such)

Actual textual support is not the same thing as something people claim is textual support. I have never seen anything that I would consider actual textual support for Dany being anyone but who she (and we) think she is, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

47 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The theory said Dany is Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter

Timeline doesn’t work, for starters. 

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have never seen anything that I would consider actual textual support for Dany being anyone but who she (and we) think she is, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.

I'm not claiming Dany is R+L's daughter. I'm not entirely convinced by the essay, but there is an argument to be made for Dany not being who she is. In her story she is constantly compared to Rhaegar rather than to Aerys, in the same way Robb is constantly compared to Ned. Quaithe tells her to remember who she is, meaning, she has forgotten who she is. And Dany has clearly been lied to about her past, the house woth the red door is not in Braavos, but she's been told it is.

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Timeline doesn’t work, for starters. 

Well, Robert's Rebellion timeline is a mess, but also, we dont' know how it would fit the timeline, we don't know when the TOJ happened relative to the sack of KL, so it could fit.

[Lord Lannister]

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Well, Robert's Rebellion timeline is a mess, but also, we dont' know how it would fit the timeline, we don't know when the TOJ happened relative to the sack of KL, so it could fit.

Yes, unless you're saying Ned's lying to himself in his own POV the Tower of Joy battle was stated to take place both after the Trident and fall of King's Landing. 

[CamiloRP]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Yes, unless you're saying Ned's lying to himself in his own POV the Tower of Joy battle was stated to take place both after the Trident and fall of King's Landing. 

Yes, so? If Dany is who she thinks she is, she was conceived around the sack of KL, so she was born after it (unless Targaryen's gestate incredibly fast) the question is, how much time after it? and we don't know how much ttime after the sack was the TOJ

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And Dany has clearly been lied to about her past, the house woth the red door is not in Braavos,

That’s pure speculation. And that is my point. People take one assumption and run w/ it, making several others along the way and come up w/ “theories” that lack actual textual support. IMO.

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s pure speculation. And that is my point. People take one assumption and run w/ it, making several others along the way and come up w/ “theories” that lack actual textual support. IMO.

That's where I disagree with you. I'm open to the possibility of the house with the red door being in Braavos, and I'm not convinced by her being Rhaegar's daughter, but there's certainly some textual support for both theories.

We are repeatedly told lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, and Arya's description of the city is completely different to Danearys's recolection of it.

Dany is more often compared to Rhaegar than Aerys and her story keeps bringing back her "remembering who she is" as if she isn't who she thinks she is. Furthermore Ned dreamt of "broken promises" in reference to the TOJ, this dreams came after Varys told him he probably couldn't save Dany. And there's more.

I'm not saying this things must be true, but it's reductive to say there's no support at all for them when there clearly is. There's more support for this theories that there was for Aegon being alive before Dance, or for Littlefinger having killen Jon Arryn before Storm.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That's where I disagree with you. I'm open to the possibility of the house with the red door being in Braavos, and I'm not convinced by her being Rhaegar's daughter, but there's certainly some textual support for both theories.

Much of the "textual support" is wishful thinking. Like this:

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We are repeatedly told lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, and Arya's description of the city is completely different to Danearys's recolection of it.

Dany lived in a house on the grounds of the Sealord's palace. Arya spends her time in a working-class district on the waterfront. The two girls have very different experiences of the same city.

21 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany is more often compared to Rhaegar than Aerys and her story keeps bringing back her "remembering who she is" as if she isn't who she thinks she is.

Or, as if she currently isn't who she thinks she ought to be: a Targaryen princess living in splendor at the royal court, someone who would never be married off into a band of savages like the Dothraki. Instead she's spent the majority of her life as a homeless vagrant dependent on charity; that's not the person she thinks she is, or ought to be.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

That's where I disagree with you. I'm open to the possibility of the house with the red door being in Braavos, and I'm not convinced by her being Rhaegar's daughter, but there's certainly some textual support for both theories.

Well, it’s how you phrased it before. You stated that the house w/ the red door isn’t in Braavos. 

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

We are repeatedly told lemon trees don't grow in Braavos, and Arya's description of the city is completely different to Danearys's recolection of it.

They may not be native, but lemon trees are not impossible to grow in climates where they’re not native, especially for someone who has the means. Winterfell has all sorts of veggies and fruit growing in its glass gardens, even in winter.

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany is more often compared to Rhaegar than Aerys and her story keeps bringing back her "remembering who she is" as if she isn't who she thinks she is. Furthermore Ned dreamt of "broken promises" in reference to the TOJ, this dreams came after Varys told him he probably couldn't save Dany. And there's more.

To each their own, but none of this points to Dany being the daughter of Rhaegar And Lyanna. Or anyone else’s but Aerys and Rhaella. IMO.

She’s  compared to Rhaegar more often because she’s more like him and less like her crazy dad. Not to mention that it would be kind of offensive to compare her to Aerys... “Hey, Dany, you remind me so much of your psycho daddy who lost the Targaryen dynasty and dragged the family name through the filthiest mud”.

 

18 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I'm not saying this things must be true, but it's reductive to say there's no support at all for them when there clearly is. There's more support for this theories that there was for Aegon being alive before Dance, or for Littlefinger having killen Jon Arryn before Storm.

Martin leaves lots and lots of things open-ended, and he gives readers lots of red herrings. But the speculation about Dany’s parents is completely unfounded and I don’t see any textual support for it. To put it differently, I don’t consider what you listed to be actual textual support, but rather speculation based a turn of phrase here and there. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. 

[CamiloRP]

3 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Dany lived in a house on the grounds of the Sealord's palace. Arya spends her time in a working-class district on the waterfront. The two girls have very different experiences of the same city.

The text never states that she lived in the Sealord's palace, and even if they where in different parts of Braavos, Why are Dany's descriptions so different? Why doesn't she smell the sea? Why doesn't she remember fog? Why is the temperature warm even though Braavos is so far up north? If the lemmon tree is in Braavos why does the text say repeatedly that citrus grow in the south, as with the BwoB and Shamma, or Septon Meribald, Sansa's lemoncakes or even TWOW Mercy chapter? I think that's a lot of textual support for the theory, be it true or not.

13 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Or, as if she currently isn't who she thinks she ought to be: a Targaryen princess living in splendor at the royal court, someone who would never be married off into a band of savages like the Dothraki. Instead she's spent the majority of her life as a homeless vagrant dependent on charity; that's not the person she thinks she is, or ought to be.

Yes, that could also be the case, but with GRRM things usually mean more than one thing, he enjoys doing that. Again, I'm not saying she is his daughter, but there's some support she is, as with the other things I said, one thing alone wouldn't be enough I think, but she is connected to Rhaegar in many ocations, and she even sees herself as him.

[CamiloRP]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, it’s how you phrased it before. You stated that the house w/ the red door isn’t in Braavos. 

Yeah, I was trying to be brief (not my forte) and ended up explaining myself completely wrong.

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

They may not be native, but lemon trees are not impossible to grow in climates where they’re not native, especially for someone who has the means. Winterfell has all sorts of veggies and fruit growing in its glass gardens, even in winter.

No it's not imposible, but why would he keep stating that fact if it weren't for a reason? He keeps pointing put where do citrus grow over and over, even if he wrote it as a red herring, for it to be an effective one the text should support it to trow you off.

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

She’s  compared to Rhaegar more often because she’s more like him and less like her crazy dad. Not to mention that it would be kind of offensive to compare her to Aerys... “Hey, Dany, you remind me so much of your psycho daddy who lost the Targaryen dynasty and dragged the family name through the filthiest mud”.

But it's not just other characters though, Dany herself thinks of her more as Rhaegar's family than Aerys's and prophecies and visions highlight her connection to him also.

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin leaves lots and lots of things open-ended, and he gives readers lots of red herrings. But the speculation about Dany’s parents is completely unfounded and I don’t see any textual support for it. To put it differently, I don’t consider what you listed to be actual textual support, but rather speculation based a turn of phrase here and there. We will have to agree to disagree on this one. 

I agree, and I'm not entirely convinced she is his daughter (still looking for that essay tho) but my dislike for this theory does not come from a lack of textual support but from it really not adding to the story, It doesn't change Dany's character, she would still be a targaryen by blood and still would have the most powerful force if she decided to invade Westeros, and I don't see how she could ever find out, except from a vision revealing it to her, and that would be so. fucking. lame.

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I agree, and I'm not entirely convinced she is his daughter (still looking for that essay tho) but my dislike for this theory does not come from a lack of textual support but from it really not adding to the story, It doesn't change Dany's character, she would still be a targaryen by blood and still would have the most powerful force if she decided to invade Westeros, and I don't see how she could ever find out, except from a vision revealing it to her, and that would be so. fucking. lame.

We may disagree on whether there’s textual support for Dany being Rhaegar’s daughter, but irt the bold I agree wholeheartedly. 

[corbon]

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The text never states that she lived in the Sealord's palace, and even if they where in different parts of Braavos, Why are Dany's descriptions so different?

They aren't. 
Dany doesn't give almost any description. Here is the totality that I can find:

Quote

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. 
...
She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more.
...
 She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.
...
In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. [this may be the house she remembers or may just be a symbolic representation of 'home'. Its included for completeness. We don't know really if the red-door house of her childhood was tall or built of stone.]

 

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why doesn't she smell the sea?

The house is perfumed.

Quote

 She did take a dozen flasks of scented oils, the perfumes of her childhood; she had only to close her eyes and sniff them and she could see the big house with the red door once more. 

 

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why doesn't she remember fog?

She doesn't 'not' remember fog. She doesn't describe the weather at all. Her memories are indoors.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why is the temperature warm even though Braavos is so far up north?

Its not. The temperature or climate in her memories is never mentioned.
Are you perhaps confusing her wishful thinking in Meereen where she wanted to just laze in the pool with iced fruits all day dreaming of the house with the red door? Thats the climate in Meereen, not red-door-place.
Or perhaps the smell of sickness that hung with Willem Darry? Thats the specific smell of his illness inside the room of a sick man, not the general climate outdoors.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

If the lemmon tree is in Braavos why does the text say repeatedly that citrus grow in the south, as with the BwoB and Shamma, or Septon Meribald, Sansa's lemoncakes or even TWOW Mercy chapter?

Because they do. Thats their natural climate. But rich people can afford to have out-of-climate luxuries. Dany lived with rich people.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I think that's a lot of textual support for the theory, be it true or not.

Well, so far its almost entirely mistakes.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, that could also be the case, but with GRRM things usually mean more than one thing, he enjoys doing that. Again, I'm not saying she is his daughter, but there's some support she is,

Not that you've shown. 

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

as with the other things I said, one thing alone wouldn't be enough I think, but she is connected to Rhaegar in many locations, and she even sees herself as him.

Of course she is. Rhaegar is her brother (but really a full generation older than her - his kids were older than her). He is the one 'good' member of her family, her past that she's lost. Of course she associates with him. That doesn't point to him being her genetic father in any way.
Given her father's situation Rhaegar is effectively the ideal from the previous generation that she aspires to. He fills the place of a father better than her actual father, without physical fatherhood.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

The text never states that she lived in the Sealord's palace, [...]

Which is why I didn't say that either. 

2 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Dany lived in a house on the grounds of the Sealord's palace.

 

[Lord Browndodd]

Does the text actually mention citrus being grown in greenhouses?  Of course there are greenhouses (at Winterfell), but is citrus ever grown there?

[corbon]

31 minutes ago, Lord Browndodd said:

Does the text actually mention citrus being grown in greenhouses?  Of course there are greenhouses (at Winterfell), but is citrus ever grown there?

Not explicitly. Maybe, maybe not.
Blackberries. 

Quote

 the man in the glass gardens who gave him a blackberry when he came to visit

Fruits and vegetables.

Quote

the cooks tending their vegetables in the glass garden
...
and under the shattered panes of the Glass Garden the fruits and vegetables that would have fed the castle during the winter were dead and black and frozen. 

Winter roses and maybe other flowers.

Quote

So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment.
...
If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens,

Trees, fruits, flowers. 

Quote

The green and yellow panes of the glass gardens were all in shards, the trees and fruits and flowers torn up or left exposed to die.

Lemons are both fruit and tree, so could be included. It makes sense that their would be some, given Sansa's fondness for lemoncakes. But might not be as well.