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(f)dany


CamiloRP

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On 8/14/2020 at 5:54 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with you, I don’t really understand the fairly stringent gas lighting of this theory to be honest.  

I don't remember how long you've been on here, so I don't know if this relates to you as well as it does me and the rest of us who saw this a few years back:

The fan asking the question was a poster here and that poor soul was pretty much hounded off this board by the same stuff @CamiloRP gets thrown at him in this thread. 

At first I didn't realise why this topic irked me so much but this is why. 

 

edit; Like seriously taking up pages on ripping on lemongate when we have D=E and gods knows what else going on here? Its weird.

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On 8/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, CamiloRP said:

I just finished rereading ASOIAF again and I found myself thinking about an essay I read a few years back, titled "(f)dany" (I think) that compiles a lot of evidence about how Dany is Rhaegar's daughter instead of his sister, I wanted to read that essay again but couldn't find it. Anyone knows where it is?

thanks a lot!

I don't think it's possible for Rhaella and Rhaegar to be her father.  Rhaegar and Aerys were not on good terms but I doubt the singing prince would do that.  I also do not think Queen Rhaella would do that to her family.  But I have seen many theories of Rhaegar + Lyanna = Daenerys.  I don't put much stock on it but it is possible.  Rhaegar + Ashara = Daenerys is also possible.  But why would Ashara do a free dive into the rocks if she had a daughter.  Maternal instincts would guide her to live so she can take care of baby Daenerys.  Here are the most supported parents.

  1. King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella
  2. Rhaegar and Lyanna
  3. Rhaegar and Ashara
  4. King Aerys II and Ashara

Who fathered Daenerys is not really all that important.  She is the Mother of Dragons, Khaleesi of the Dothraki, heir to Westeros, Mhysa, Queen of Meereen, etc., etc., etc.   She is carving out a Queendom for herself in the east.  It matters not to the Dothraki, Ghiscari, the Dragons, Moqorro, Vic where she came from.  She is obviously Valyrian and at least half Targaryen.  She can claim millions of acres in Essos based on her connection to the Valyrian dragonlords.  The dragons prove her heritage, whether it's from Aerys and Rhaella or some other Valyrian.  She is the heir to Westeros because she is the last known kin of King Viserys, Third of His Name.  Westeros will need serious rebuilding at the end of the long night and I think our Daenerys will build her own Queendom from the ruins.  

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On 8/16/2020 at 7:44 AM, Sigella said:

The fan asking the question was a poster here and that poor soul was pretty much hounded off this board by the same stuff @CamiloRP gets thrown at him in this thread. 

Nobody is hounding anybody off the board.

On 8/16/2020 at 7:44 AM, Sigella said:

edit; Like seriously taking up pages on ripping on lemongate when we have D=E and gods knows what else going on here? Its weird.

If people post false information, then its only fair to point that out.
I don't have a problem with Lemongate - I don't believe its logically warranted, but people don't have to be logical in their beliefs. I do think readers should be informed by factual accuracy rather than mislead by false statements.

Whining about bullshit like "gaslighting" and "hounding people off the board" is nothing more than an attempt to shame others when you have been shown to be wrong.

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On 8/15/2020 at 5:16 AM, LynnS said:

I think there is one other clue.  It's not a visual memory, but instead a scent memory: the smell of home.

That quote explicitly connected those smells to Tyrosh and Myr, then Lys. Dany spent most of her life in those cities, after being de-housed in Braavos.

On 8/15/2020 at 5:16 AM, LynnS said:

It seems to me that Lys might be a good candidate for the house with the red door.  It's been suggested before that Dany is a substitute from Lys and they specialize in breeding slaves that look like Targaryens.  I'd say this is a good place to hide Dany as a child, because she wouldn't stand out in the population,,  Lys is fertile with palm and fruit trees and they produce heady, sweet perfumes.  

The perfumes of her Braavos memory are scented oils. They are not described as heady or sweet, nor as anything un-heady or un-sweet - which doesn't rule them out of course.

Its the same problem though. 
In her Braavos memories she was living in a big, rich house. They had money and/or rich and powerful supporters. You get things like exotics, perfumes, expensive carved wood, in rich houses. There is no logical value in searching for the origins of items of wealth in a trading society.

On 8/15/2020 at 5:16 AM, LynnS said:

So pillow houses have red doors?

There is no connection anywhere between pillow houses and red doors.

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On 8/13/2020 at 11:21 PM, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

I believe the essay is this: https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany

Fun fact: (f)Dany has much more evidence than r+l=j 

 

On 8/14/2020 at 11:08 AM, CamiloRP said:

YES IT IS. 

Thanks a lot mr stallion

 

That is one of the worst theories in the fandom because unlike straight tinfoil, it pretends to be well-documented with book "evidence." But if you actually fact check the author's claims, you see that he's wrong about so many things, and if you discuss with him on reddit, he never, ever, ever admits to any of his countless mistakes.

 

For example, he claims that "promise me, Ned" is strongly associated with Dany; and that Ned resigned as Hand to uphold the "promise" to protect his niece. But if you fact check that, you'll find out that

  • The word "promise" does not occur anywhere in Eddard VIII, the chapter when Ned resigns as Hand.
  • Ned never associates the "promise" with Dany. Most Ned chapters that mention "promise" don't mention Dany, and vice versa.
  • The ones that mention both never put them in the same context.
  • In Eddard XV, Ned's final chapter, Ned thinks of "broken promises" and has the opportunity to ask Varys about his "niece." He doesn't. Instead, he asks Varys about his daughters (unsurprisingly), doesn't think of Dany or the "Targaryen girl/princess" at all, and painfully rues that he can't speak to...Jon.

tl;dr His "evidence" for this point is all quotes taken grossly out-of-context.

 

I actually tried to read the theory with an open mind and stopped after I found out that he was arguing that there are two Willem Darry's:

  • The real one that Viserys knew and who signed the secret marriage pact with Oberyn Martell, witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.
  • The fake one that Dany remembers.

Conveniently, both are dead!!!

 

Look, if you find the theory plausible, that's your right, but for the record, R+L=J does not require even 1% of the level of tinfoil and headcanon that author routinely abuses.

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The way I see it, there are two plausible explanations for the lemongate:

1) Dany lived in a luxury house that had a garden and an exotic tree, and the fact that it's a lemon tree points to the secret pact with Dorne. Also, IIRC, GRRM had her originally in Tyrosh, which is in the south, but the discrepancies can still be explained. Also, a different season than during Arya's stay.

2) Dany was a little girl and got her memories mixed up with other places they visited, and the house with the red door is an illusion that will eventually shatter and leave her emotionally broken.

 

Or it could be a combination of both. I just don't see how it makes Dany fake.

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On 8/12/2020 at 1:55 PM, CamiloRP said:

No it's not imposible, but why would he keep stating that fact if it weren't for a reason? He keeps pointing put where do citrus grow over and over, even if he wrote it as a red herring, for it to be an effective one the text should support it to trow you off.

Martin keeps telling us about lemon trees not being native to Braavos for a very good reason. It's an important clue. It's just not a clue to what you are saying it is. It is a precursor to another clue we first learn at the end of A Feast for Crows. There we learn that a pact was negotiated between Ser William Derry and Prince Oberyn Martell and witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos himself. That pact was a marriage pact for Viserys and Princess Arianne Martell. Which tells us contrary to Dany's memories of being abandoned with only her brother for support that the Targaryens had hidden powerful forces in both Westeros and the Free Cities interested in their fate.

If we ask ourselves just who might have brought a lemon tree to Braavos to be planted in one of the few green areas of that city (the Sealord's Palace grounds) then we have to think that it would be a very good symbol from the Martells that Dorne, the land of lemon trees, had not forgotten the Targaryen children. Not a symbol that Robert's spies can say is proof of Sunspear's alliance with House Targaryen, but a powerful symbol nonetheless. The description of the house with the red door fits with the fact of the Sealord signing a political alliance between two powerful houses aligned against Robert's rule.

Martin is jabbing the reader with this lemon tree to get us thinking early on that there is a backstory here that needs to be paid attention to, and he reveals a major part of that story later on with the marriage pact Quentyn brings to Dany, and in Prince Doran's reveal of that pact to Arianne. The lemon tree is a early clue that this backstory is important.

The problem here is when we only look at the lemon tree in isolation and begin making up crazy theories about Dany's parentage as a result. All evidence tells us Dany is who she thinks she is, and the lemon tree doesn't point otherwise. It points directly at the marriage pact.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

[snip]

... good symbol from the Martells that Dorne, the land of lemon trees, had not forgotten the Targaryen children. Not a symbol that Robert's spies can say is proof of Sunspear's alliance with House Targaryen, but a powerful symbol nonetheless. The description of the house with the red door fits with the fact of the Sealord signing a political alliance between two powerful houses aligned against Robert's rule.

[snip]

This is an interesting interpretation of the lemon tree. I had not thought of that and like it.

I still have two issues with it:

1) This interpretation means in other words that GRRM put a symbol for the Dorne - Targaryen alliance into Braavos in from of a lemon tree, figuring that the Baratheons and Lannisters are not smart enough to get it but the reader is.

Hm.

2) And then: if I am the Prince of Dorne why do I put a lemon tree there at all? Yeah, yeah no one might notice. But then again: it is a hint. Unnecessary risk.

You could still be right ofc. But I don't know.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Martin is jabbing the reader with this lemon tree to get us thinking early on that there is a backstory here that needs to be paid attention to, and he reveals a major part of that story later on with the marriage pact Quentyn brings to Dany, and in Prince Doran's reveal of that pact to Arianne. The lemon tree is a early clue that this backstory is important.

This! And that’s why Martin, when replying to the person who asked about it, says it’s “very perceptive” to have noticed it, and that it “does point to...”. 

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55 minutes ago, Amris said:

figuring that the Baratheons and Lannisters are not smart enough to get it but the reader is.

Seriously? Do you  expect them to keep tabs on what trees people keep in their gardens in Braavos? 

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Nobody is hounding anybody off the board.

If people post false information, then its only fair to point that out.
I don't have a problem with Lemongate - I don't believe its logically warranted, but people don't have to be logical in their beliefs. I do think readers should be informed by factual accuracy rather than mislead by false statements.

Whining about bullshit like "gaslighting" and "hounding people off the board" is nothing more than an attempt to shame others when you have been shown to be wrong.

Well that was what happened and yes, the people who did it should be ashamed imo. I dont remember who the perps was but I can give you the username of the fan and you can check it out for yourself. Let me know in dm, I dont want to out them publically and I dont wish to revisit that ugliness myself either.

 

Also I dont think it would hurt if some posters instead of pointing out flaws in others would turn their critical eye to themselves from time to time. What fuels this great need to put others pet-tinfoils down? We are all aware that the story will eventually go the way GRRM writes it and what we think/want/wish isnt going to affect that. You acting like the theory police isnt gonna matter either.

 

@kissdbyfire Pointed out how silly posters wants to be the one who discovered something, when in fact, people who feel so strongly against the silly theories are by far more prevalent on here, and to me there is not much difference in motives for both these types of posters. Wanting to be THE ONE WHO KILLED THE SILLY THEORY might be dumber than sharing your silly theory.

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35 minutes ago, Sigella said:

What fuels this great need to put others pet-tinfoils down?

If the author acknowledges something as tinfoil, I leave it alone. If the author acknowledges something as fanfic, I leave it alone.

 

But if the author actually claims that the theory is serious and is "supported" by the text, and further claims that R+L=J is just a circlejerk with scant evidence to back it up, well...then the author foregoes the tinfoil/fanfic excuse.

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4 hours ago, Amris said:

This is an interesting interpretation of the lemon tree. I had not thought of that and like it.

Glad you like it.

4 hours ago, Amris said:

I still have two issues with it:

1) This interpretation means in other words that GRRM put a symbol for the Dorne - Targaryen alliance into Braavos in from of a lemon tree, figuring that the Baratheons and Lannisters are not smart enough to get it but the reader is.

Hm.

The lemon tree is a remarkably subtle symbol of that alliance. Why? First because it fits right into the exotic nature of the Sealord's Palace and grounds. This is, after all, a sea of green in a city of gray. A verdant playground with its own menagerie of animals from distant shores. One exotic tree, not normally found in this climate, but nursed and tended by the Sealord's gardeners isn't likely to stand out in such a way for anyone to take real notice, much less draw conclusions about a hyper secret marriage pact.

What it is is a tree which fits in perfectly with its other exotic surroundings, and one which needs a cipher to understand its significance. That cipher comes in the person of Ser Willem Darry. It's not that Baratheon and Lannister spies (aka Lord Varys agents) can't notice a new tree, but the significance of the tree is lost without the context of the marriage pact.

Ser Willem can see the Targaryen children grow, along with the tree, and remind them of how wonderful it is to have friends who supply them with lemons and all the tasty things they make. When they become adults he can tell them exactly who brought them this gift and why. Unfortunately, both their host and their protector die too early, and they are left with only the memories of lemons.

As to the the reader, attentive ones note the repeated authorial attention to the lemon tree's alien nature in Braavos. The kind of meta information that characters do not get to take notice of in their understanding. It doesn't matter how many times Martin sprinkles the "lemon trees in Braavos?" clues because Robert, Tywin, and even Lord Varys don't get to count the number of references and say "maybe the author is trying to tell us something?"

4 hours ago, Amris said:

2) And then: if I am the Prince of Dorne why do I put a lemon tree there at all? Yeah, yeah no one might notice. But then again: it is a hint. Unnecessary risk.

The Red Viper takes a far greater risk in his own presence in Braavos to sign the pact. Leaving a tree to be transplanted into the Sealord's grounds is not much of a risk. Oberyn need not do anything but have the lemon tree loaded on the ship that brings him there. The risk is if anyone recognizes HIM, but we know he takes this risk to sign the pact and bring it back to Doran.

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I'd like to give @SFDanny a shout-out by linking this older thread:

 

 

I am totally cool with the idea that the secret marriage pact might not be the big Lemongate reveal, and that there are important parts of Dany's past that we have yet to learn. But if you actually assess the fDany theory point-by-point, it quickly becomes clear that most of the supposed problems aren't problems at all.

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@lehutin

yeah, I agree with you, I just wanted to reread it because my hype levels are to high, I already reread the books twice in the quarantine, and weel, have nothing better to do to keep my hype at bay. I even watched The Order Of The GreenHand, and they have to world's worst posible ASOIAF theories.

I didn't even remember the Willem Darry thing until I reread the essay the other day, and man, those are some slim straws he's grasping. 

I do think there's an argumen't to be made about Dany being Rhaegar's daughter, even if I don't agree with it tho.

And I dislike R+L=J very much, tho it's the most likely scenario.

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11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Martin keeps telling us about lemon trees not being native to Braavos for a very good reason. It's an important clue. It's just not a clue to what you are saying it is. It is a precursor to another clue we first learn at the end of A Feast for Crows. There we learn that a pact was negotiated between Ser William Derry and Prince Oberyn Martell and witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos himself. That pact was a marriage pact for Viserys and Princess Arianne Martell. Which tells us contrary to Dany's memories of being abandoned with only her brother for support that the Targaryens had hidden powerful forces in both Westeros and the Free Cities interested in their fate.

If we ask ourselves just who might have brought a lemon tree to Braavos to be planted in one of the few green areas of that city (the Sealord's Palace grounds) then we have to think that it would be a very good symbol from the Martells that Dorne, the land of lemon trees, had not forgotten the Targaryen children. Not a symbol that Robert's spies can say is proof of Sunspear's alliance with House Targaryen, but a powerful symbol nonetheless. The description of the house with the red door fits with the fact of the Sealord signing a political alliance between two powerful houses aligned against Robert's rule.

Martin is jabbing the reader with this lemon tree to get us thinking early on that there is a backstory here that needs to be paid attention to, and he reveals a major part of that story later on with the marriage pact Quentyn brings to Dany, and in Prince Doran's reveal of that pact to Arianne. The lemon tree is a early clue that this backstory is important.

The problem here is when we only look at the lemon tree in isolation and begin making up crazy theories about Dany's parentage as a result. All evidence tells us Dany is who she thinks she is, and the lemon tree doesn't point otherwise. It points directly at the marriage pact.

I get it, but it doesn't sound like an answer to me. I don't get why the lemon tree would be a hint of the pact, I don't get why diegetically the Martell's would take a tree to Braavos, it just doesn't seem like enough to me.

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On 8/15/2020 at 2:44 PM, Sigella said:

I don't remember how long you've been on here, so I don't know if this relates to you as well as it does me and the rest of us who saw this a few years back:

The fan asking the question was a poster here and that poor soul was pretty much hounded off this board by the same stuff @CamiloRP gets thrown at him in this thread. 

At first I didn't realise why this topic irked me so much but this is why. 

 

edit; Like seriously taking up pages on ripping on lemongate when we have D=E and gods knows what else going on here? Its weird.

I've been here a while, since before ADWD at least.  And I think I was there when the first thread was started about the discrepency between Dany's memories of the lemon tree and her backstory of having been brought to Braavos as an infant.

And interestingly enough, the moderators locked the thread up very quickly.

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5 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also I dont think it would hurt if some posters instead of pointing out flaws in others would turn their critical eye to themselves from time to time. What fuels this great need to put others pet-tinfoils down? We are all aware that the story will eventually go the way GRRM writes it and what we think/want/wish isnt going to affect that. You acting like the theory police isnt gonna matter either.

@kissdbyfire Pointed out how silly posters wants to be the one who discovered something, when in fact, people who feel so strongly against the silly theories are by far more prevalent on here, and to me there is not much difference in motives for both these types of posters. Wanting to be THE ONE WHO KILLED THE SILLY THEORY might be dumber than sharing your silly theory.

This. I think that feeling so strongly about your personal theory of choice only means you'll be really disappointed when it's not true. George writes in a fashion that leaves many things as a possibility, that's why the "no textual support" argument irks me, there clearly is, even if it turns out to be nothing, and he really likes to surprise the reader and we have no fucking idea what he will write next. 
Weather you like it or not, lemongate could be true; weather it adds to the story or not R+L=D could be true; despite how useless and completely out of field it would be, Rhaego could still be alive; and even if I think it's so fucking lame, R+L=J could be true (and probably is)

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4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I get it, but it doesn't sound like an answer to me. I don't get why the lemon tree would be a hint of the pact, I don't get why diegetically the Martell's would take a tree to Braavos, it just doesn't seem like enough to me.

Of course it's not enough. The Martells don't just bring a tree to Braavos. They come to Braavos and make a treasonous marriage pact with the main contenders for Robert's throne. They commit themselves to the Targaryen cause of returning the Targaryens to overlordship over Westeros. There is no "just" to that kind of act. The tree is only a symbol of that action. It is not only a symbol in story, but also a sign to the reader to pay attention to this backstory as it is revealed.

So why then it a hint of the pact that is revealed later? Because the lemon tree is something associated with Dorne and the Martells. Go back to your list of quotes and see how many not only say that lemon trees are not native to Braavos, but that it is native to Dorne. It is a signal of Dornish involvement in the Targaryen stay in Braavos, and that is confirmed by the pact.

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