(f)dany

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

he Red Viper takes a far greater risk in his own presence in Braavos to sign the pact. Leaving a tree to be transplanted into the Sealord's grounds is not much of a risk. Oberyn need not do anything but have the lemon tree loaded on the ship that brings him there. The risk is if anyone recognizes HIM, but we know he takes this risk to sign the pact and bring it back to Doran.

It's an interesting theory.  I've got another possibility.  The gift that Oberyn brought from Dorne, to seal the marriage alliance, wasn't a lemon tree, it was Dany, plucked from the Water Gardens at a very young age.  So young, the only memory she has over her actual childhood was the lemon tree outside her window.  

Because Viserys needed an army, and the only coin Viserys could have used to obtain an army was a sister, a sister he didn't have.  Dany had the right look and perhaps the right lineage, perhaps just on the wrong side of the pillow.   So she became his sister, to use to obtain an army when she grew to the right age.

Which is why Dany is never mentioned in the marriage alliance.  Oberyn, and Willem and Viserys were all aware that Dany wasn't really a Targaryen princess.  Which is why Visersy always treated Dany with utter contempt.  He didn't consider her his equal.

But Viserys was tasked in molding Dany into the role of his sister.  So she could be used as his coin to get his army.  Which is why Viserys told Dany that the dragons were never meant to mate with the "beasts in the field"  yet he was so willing to sell her off to the Dothraki.

Which is also why Illyrio allowed the wedding alliance even though he never expected Dany to survive her time with the Dothraki.  It seems like a real waste of a very valuable commodity, if Illyrio truly believed she was a Targaryen princess for an army that Illyrio knew wouldn't cross the Narrow Sea.

Then Dany surprised everyone and hatched the dragons.  

As for whether or not Viserys actually had a sister, I certainly think it's possible.  I just don't think he had any control or access to the sister.  My guesss is that when they fled Dragonstone, they were seperated.  Viserys went to Braavos, and perhaps his real sister went to, I don't know... perhaps Tyrosh.  Where she grew up as the daughter to the Archon with dyed green hair to hide her hair of silver and gold.

 

[CamiloRP]

7 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Of course it's not enough. The Martells don't just bring a tree to Braavos. They come to Braavos and make a treasonous marriage pact with the main contenders for Robert's throne. They commit themselves to the Targaryen cause of returning the Targaryens to overlordship over Westeros. There is no "just" to that kind of act. The tree is only a symbol of that action. It is not only a symbol in story, but also a sign to the reader to pay attention to this backstory as it is revealed.

So why then it a hint of the pact that is revealed later? Because the lemon tree is something associated with Dorne and the Martells. Go back to your list of quotes and see how many not only say that lemon trees are not native to Braavos, but that it is native to Dorne. It is a signal of Dornish involvement in the Targaryen stay in Braavos, and that is confirmed by the pact.

Perhaps I din't explained myself well, when I said "it's not enough" I meant that the marriage pact doesn't seem like enough of an explanation for the lemon tree to be there, in my opinion.

Also i'm weary of using the word "confirmed" in general, but in regards to this specially, the marriage pact didn't "confirm" anything about the lemon tree, the only thing the marriage pact confirmed is that Doran has a weird ass plan involving Dany.

[Lord Browndodd]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting theory.  I've got another possibility.  The gift that Oberyn brought from Dorne, to seal the marriage alliance, wasn't a lemon tree, it was Dany, plucked from the Water Gardens at a very young age.  So young, the only memory she has over her actual childhood was the lemon tree outside her window.  

Because Viserys needed an army, and the only coin Viserys could have used to obtain an army was a sister, a sister he didn't have.  Dany had the right look and perhaps the right lineage, perhaps just on the wrong side of the pillow.   So she became his sister, to use to obtain an army when she grew to the right age.

Which is why Dany is never mentioned in the marriage alliance.  Oberyn, and Willem and Viserys were all aware that Dany wasn't really a Targaryen princess.  Which is why Visersy always treated Dany with utter contempt.  He didn't consider her his equal.

But Viserys was tasked in molding Dany into the role of his sister.  So she could be used as his coin to get his army.  Which is why Viserys told Dany that the dragons were never meant to mate with the "beasts in the field"  yet he was so willing to sell her off to the Dothraki.

Which is also why Illyrio allowed the wedding alliance even though he never expected Dany to survive her time with the Dothraki.  It seems like a real waste of a very valuable commodity, if Illyrio truly believed she was a Targaryen princess for an army that Illyrio knew wouldn't cross the Narrow Sea.

Then Dany surprised everyone and hatched the dragons.  

As for whether or not Viserys actually had a sister, I certainly think it's possible.  I just don't think he had any control or access to the sister.  My guesss is that when they fled Dragonstone, they were seperated.  Viserys went to Braavos, and perhaps his real sister went to, I don't know... perhaps Tyrosh.  Where she grew up as the daughter to the Archon with dyed green hair to hide her hair of silver and gold.

 

The problem with this is that no way is Viserys going to keep this information to himself, especially after Dany has married elsewhere, and especially once she has gained influence among the Dothraki.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lord Browndodd said:

The problem with this is that no way is Viserys going to keep this information to himself, especially after Dany has married elsewhere, and especially once she has gained influence among the Dothraki.

Who's he going to tell?  He lives amongst the Dothraki.  Is he going to tell them that he defrauded Drogo and married him to the child of a gold and silver haired prostitute?  

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've been here a while, since before ADWD at least.  And I think I was there when the first thread was started about the discrepency between Dany's memories of the lemon tree and her backstory of having been brought to Braavos as an infant.

And interestingly enough, the moderators locked the thread up very quickly.

I hope to god you didn't just start the first ever real world-GRRM/asoiaf-conspiracy theory  

No, that was a lie; it'd be awesome 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I hope to god you didn't just start the first ever real world-GRRM/asoiaf-conspiracy theory  

No, that was a lie; it'd be awesome 

No, I wish I could take credit.  I forgot who the poster was that did the thread.  He DM'd me a while back and we discussed how weird it was that they decided to shut his thread down.

ETA: if memory serves, I don't even think he came to the conclusion that it meant that Dany wasn't actually Rhaella's daughter and brought to Braavos like Viserys said.  I think at the time we were discussing the possibility of Dany having memories of past lives, or some such nonesense.

There was another poster, who's name I also can't remember (I'm as bad with imaginary user names as I am with real names), who came up with a plausible reason (at least in my mind) that Viserys would have lied to Dany about her origin.

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Because Viserys needed an army, and the only coin Viserys could have used to obtain an army was a sister, a sister he didn't have.

Well, he did have a sister. Stannis bitterly complains in the ACOK Prologue that Robert blamed him for "letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe." Because Viserys and "the babe" left before Stannis arrived, the only way Stannis could have gotten that information is through the Dragonstone garrison, and they have no reason to lie to Stannis.

 

So if we go with your Water Gardens story, then Doran Martell knowingly sent his eldest son on a "a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end" to bring back not Fire and Blood, but...a random Dornish girl that he (Doran) himself gave away years ago.

[Ygrain]

The problem is that Viserys just cannot keep himself from babbling - yet, in all his mad raving, he never ever hints at anything.

[Lord Browndodd]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Who's he going to tell?  He lives amongst the Dothraki.  Is he going to tell them that he defrauded Drogo and married him to the child of a gold and silver haired prostitute?  

Dany, for a start, in every chapter he bullies her, yet I don't think it is hinted at.  There is evidence, though, that Viserys is not a true Targ.  I assume he is only metaphorically not the real deal, though for those who like theories about Dornish doppelgangers, Jorah describes him at one point as less than the shadow of a snake.

I'd also expect it to come up in his ravings when he commits suicide by horselord (in much the same way as Rattleshirt tells the truth when he is about to die, but no-one realises it at the time).  Again, not a hint.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Well, he did have a sister. Stannis bitterly complains in the ACOK Prologue that Robert blamed him for "letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe." Because Viserys and "the babe" left before Stannis arrived, the only way Stannis could have gotten that information is through the Dragonstone garrison, and they have no reason to lie to Stannis.

 

So if we go with your Water Gardens story, then Doran Martell knowingly sent his eldest son on a "a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end" to bring back not Fire and Blood, but...a random Dornish girl that he (Doran) himself gave away years ago.

That's why I raised the possibility of Viserys having a sister, but it was a sister that he had no access to and no ability to use her as coin.  Which is why I think that it's highly possible that the last two remaining heirs of the Targaryen dynasty were split up.  One went to Braavos and perhaps one went to Tyrosh.  And the green haird daughter of the Archon that we keep hearing about may in fact actually be Viserys' sister.  

This may also be why the Archon of Tyrosh' brother was present at Dany's wedding shower.  

When Doran Martell sent Quentyn to woo Dany, he didn't send him there because she was a Targaryen Princess.  He sent him there because she was the Mother of Dragons.  It was her dragons that Doran wanted.

[Frey family reunion]

5 hours ago, Lord Browndodd said:

Dany, for a start, in every chapter he bullies her, yet I don't think it is hinted at.  There is evidence, though, that Viserys is not a true Targ.  I assume he is only metaphorically not the real deal, though for those who like theories about Dornish doppelgangers, Jorah describes him at one point as less than the shadow of a snake.

I'd also expect it to come up in his ravings when he commits suicide by horselord (in much the same way as Rattleshirt tells the truth when he is about to die, but no-one realises it at the time).  Again, not a hint.

You have to remember, that everything east of the Narrow Sea, we just have through Dany's eyes.  Dany is the one that Viserys has to convince.  Dany is the one that Viserys has been tasked into making a Targaryen Princess.  He's never going to let her in on the secret.  My guess is Illyrio knows, my guess is even Jorah may have been told some contradictory information, which is why at one point Jorah looks at Dany so curiously as she starts to act the part of a ruler, and tells her, that maybe she is Rhaegar's sister.

But it's the way that Viserys treats Dany that may be the giveaway.  Now granted, Viserys is a prick, so perhaps he would have treated Dany that way whether or not she was his sister.  But when you read it with the context of Viserys knowing that Dany wasn't really his sister, that she was a "shudder" child of a commoner (or worse yet perhaps the child of a whore) then it becomes really clear why Viserys treats her with such disdain.

Go back to the passage when Dany starts to assert her independence, and Viserys becomes enraged.  "How dare, You, try to command me."

And when he is being threatened by Drogo wouldn't exactly be the time and place to tell Drogo and Dany that she isn't his sister.  I don't think it would stay the hand of Drogo from pouring the molten gold over his head and it certainly wouldn't help convince Dany to stop Drogo.

Viserys last ditch effort to save his hide is to appeal to Dany as his "sweet sister" to keep Drogo from killing him.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting theory.  I've got another possibility. 

Well that went off the rails quickly. When you want to discuss something seriously. Let me know.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Well that went off the rails quickly. When you want to discuss something seriously. Let me know.

I think it's a very serious possibility.

It's why Dany hatched the dragons.  She's not just the product of the Targaryen royal line.  A line that had gone over a hundred years without being able to hatch a dragon.  My guess is she is the product of a reemergence of Targaryen bloodlines that had been split off since the time of the Dance of the Dragons.

It's one of the first history lessons of the Targaryen that we were given.  We learned that they wed brother to sister to keep the line pure because of their dragons.  We learned that there was a Dance of Dragons where brother warred against sister.  In other words even before George got into the details of the Dance, he wanted a split between brother and sister.  This is the time the Targaryens lost their dragons (their magic swords if you will.).  

Dany mentions on multiple occassions that she completely relied on Viserys to tell her about her background and her origins.  

My guess is there have been attempts to genetically engineer the Targaryen bloodlines.  And there are two ways of bringing that about.  One is marriage alliances.  But there is another way.

Perhaps the reason that George keeps bringing us back to whorehouses.  It's another way that you can manipulate bloodlines.  

So ironically, perhaps Dany hatched the dragons because she wasn't a Targaryen Princess.  Genes, even magical genes don't require a legal fiction of legitimacy.  They just require the correct combination of genes from mother and father.  No matter how that comingling comes about.

 

 

[Nevets]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's an interesting theory.  I've got another possibility.  The gift that Oberyn brought from Dorne, to seal the marriage alliance, wasn't a lemon tree, it was Dany, plucked from the Water Gardens at a very young age.  So young, the only memory she has over her actual childhood was the lemon tree outside her window.  

Because Viserys needed an army, and the only coin Viserys could have used to obtain an army was a sister, a sister he didn't have.  Dany had the right look and perhaps the right lineage, perhaps just on the wrong side of the pillow.   So she became his sister, to use to obtain an army when she grew to the right age.

Which is why Dany is never mentioned in the marriage alliance.  Oberyn, and Willem and Viserys were all aware that Dany wasn't really a Targaryen princess.  Which is why Visersy always treated Dany with utter contempt.  He didn't consider her his equal.

But Viserys was tasked in molding Dany into the role of his sister.  So she could be used as his coin to get his army.  Which is why Viserys told Dany that the dragons were never meant to mate with the "beasts in the field"  yet he was so willing to sell her off to the Dothraki.

Which is also why Illyrio allowed the wedding alliance even though he never expected Dany to survive her time with the Dothraki.  It seems like a real waste of a very valuable commodity, if Illyrio truly believed she was a Targaryen princess for an army that Illyrio knew wouldn't cross the Narrow Sea.

Then Dany surprised everyone and hatched the dragons.  

As for whether or not Viserys actually had a sister, I certainly think it's possible.  I just don't think he had any control or access to the sister.  My guesss is that when they fled Dragonstone, they were seperated.  Viserys went to Braavos, and perhaps his real sister went to, I don't know... perhaps Tyrosh.  Where she grew up as the daughter to the Archon with dyed green hair to hide her hair of silver and gold.

 

So, Viserys is going to cart around a girl who isn't his sister, paying money to feed her, clothe her, educate her, etc., on the off chance that, ten years or so later, he might be able to trade her for an army.  This is a guy who, I think, has trouble thinking ten weeks ahead, much less ten years.  No way is he going to be willing to wait that long.

And where is he supposed to get this army from anyway.  He was lucky to find Khal Drogo.  Except that was essentially a scam by Illyrio and Varys who expected both of them to die.  Oh, and by the way, Viserys tried to have sex with Daenerys the night before her wedding.  I doubt he would have bothered if she wasn't really his sister. 

From what I recall, armies in the Free Cities tend to be sell sword companies.  You get them with money, not marriage.  And if the Dornish want him on the throne badly enough, they can damn well stump up the coin to put him there.

Daenerys is clearly Targaryen. The fact that she has, as companions, three dragons of clearly magical origin is proof enough for me.  The only other Targaryen around was Rhaegar, and I don't see the point in transferring parentage to him.

I am willing to accept the possibility that there is something to Lemongate.  Lemons being from Dorne is mentioned too often to be coincidence.  Also, it is mentioned as recently as Arya's preview chapter for TWOW.

[corbon]

12 hours ago, Amris said:

This is an interesting interpretation of the lemon tree. I had not thought of that and like it.

I referenced this twice already, but I guess it got lost in the textual stuff.  

12 hours ago, Amris said:

2) And then: if I am the Prince of Dorne why do I put a lemon tree there at all? Yeah, yeah no one might notice. But then again: it is a hint. Unnecessary risk.

Its a hint to readers for literary reasons, not 'real' reasons (chekhov's gun). 
It is (maybe) a reminder to the parties involved, because they know what it means (Dany didn't, and I'm far from sure even Viserys knew, because both were too young. Darry died before they were old enough to now, I think. Definitely for Dany, maybe for Viserys. But Darry would have known and probably would have pointed it out to them at a suitable time.)
Its not a hint to anyone else because its not actually meaningful for a rich man to have an exotic tree in his garden. 

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

Well that was what happened and yes, the people who did it should be ashamed imo. I dont remember who the perps was but I can give you the username of the fan and you can check it out for yourself. Let me know in dm, I dont want to out them publically and I dont wish to revisit that ugliness myself either.

No need, thanks.

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

Also I dont think it would hurt if some posters instead of pointing out flaws in others would turn their critical eye to themselves from time to time. What fuels this great need to put others pet-tinfoils down? We are all aware that the story will eventually go the way GRRM writes it and what we think/want/wish isnt going to affect that. You acting like the theory police isnt gonna matter either.

Its not the putting down of the tinfoil. Its preventing clear mis-information that got me involved. Note I left the thread alone for most of two pages until someone tried to cite textual support that doesn't actually give support.

7 hours ago, Sigella said:

@kissdbyfire Pointed out how silly posters wants to be the one who discovered something, when in fact, people who feel so strongly against the silly theories are by far more prevalent on here, and to me there is not much difference in motives for both these types of posters. Wanting to be THE ONE WHO KILLED THE SILLY THEORY might be dumber than sharing your silly theory.

Thinking that a theory can be 'killed' by silly little things like facts, might be dumber than any of the above. 
For me, its enough that people reading the thread can see the truth about what the text does and does not say. So they have a fair shot at making up their own minds. Poor CamiloRP got suckered by an old poster's lies (the author of that external thread he was looking for was around here for a while), and now has them stuck in his headcannon. He could have used someone fisking those lies when he read it the first time.

In this case, the text does not provide one single discrepancy between Dany's memories of 'Braavos' and Braavos. Every single one of the claims about discrepancies are false, about half based on flat misrepresentations in the text and half based on her memories not being 'common' when she's a sheltered rich girl.

7 hours ago, lehutin said:

If the author acknowledges something as tinfoil, I leave it alone. If the author acknowledges something as fanfic, I leave it alone.

Exactly.

7 hours ago, lehutin said:

But if the author actually claims that the theory is serious and is "supported" by the text,

Then its only fair that their textual claims be examined.

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, Nevets said:

Daenerys is clearly Targaryen. The fact that she has, as companions, three dragons of clearly magical origin is proof enough for me.  The only other Targaryen around was Rhaegar, and I don't see the point in transferring parentage to him.

Daenerys is clearly the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror.  My argument is that she is of a purer bloodline then the Targaryen royalty at the time of the rebellion.

It's why she hatched the dragons.

Dragons don't care how you obtained your bloodline. They could care less about stupid human concepts like legal legitimacy.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Oh, and by the way, Viserys tried to have sex with Daenerys the night before her wedding.  I doubt he would have bothered if she wasn't really his sister. 

I never thought I'd read "why would he have sex with her if she wasn't his sister?" but here we are.

[Nevets]

4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I never thought I'd read "why would he have sex with her if she wasn't his sister?" but here we are.

You realize we are talking about the Targaryens, right?  Sex with siblings is pretty much their modus operandi. Though I admit it felt strange to write it as well.  Yes, here we are.  I expect that until Khal Drogo came along,  Viserys was planning to marry Daenerys himself.

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

You realize we are talking about the Targaryens, right?  Sex with siblings is pretty much their modus operandi. Though I admit it felt strange to write it as well.  Yes, here we are.  I expect that until Khal Drogo came along,  Viserys was planning to marry Daenerys himself.

Yes, I was not arguing with you, I was just pointing out how fucking weird that sentence was.

And yes, Dany even says that she expected VIserys to marry her.

[Lord Lannister]

If Dany wasn't really a his sister, Viserys would've told her out of pure spite. Especially towards the end, he was jealous and wanted to hurt her.