(f)dany

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

If Dany wasn't really a his sister, Viserys would've told her out of pure spite. Especially towards the end, he was jealous and wanted to hurt her. 

Nah, he was desperately trying to get her to save his life at the end.

[Amris]

6 hours ago, Nevets said:

So, Viserys is going to cart around a girl who isn't his sister, paying money to feed her, clothe her, educate her, etc., on the off chance that, ten years or so later, he might be able to trade her for an army. 

[snip]

Yes.

(Ok, disclaimer: this is not my theory and in my mind it is not a likely possibility. But if Viseriys did not have a real sister then it would make sense for him to groom a 'sister' as a bargaining chip. He had few enough of those after all. And its not like it had to be his idea. Illyrio might have come up with it. Or Rhaella before her death.)

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

  Genes, even magical genes don't require a legal fiction of legitimacy.  They just require the correct combination of genes from mother and father. 

/cough/R+L=J/cough/

The problem with legitimacy arises if someone is actively trying to get the right combination of genes but due to his cultural background (and ignorance of genetics) thinks that legitimacy matters.

(If you want to discuss this, take it to the pinned thread)

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's why she hatched the dragons.

She hatched the dragons because she followed the family recipe of fire and blood. The Targs had forgotten what it meant.

[Sigella]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

Thinking that a theory can be 'killed' by silly little things like facts, might be dumber than any of the above. 
For me, its enough that people reading the thread can see the truth about what the text does and does not say. So they have a fair shot at making up their own minds. Poor CamiloRP got suckered by an old poster's lies (the author of that external thread he was looking for was around here for a while), and now has them stuck in his headcannon. He could have used someone fisking those lies when he read it the first time.

In this case, the text does not provide one single discrepancy between Dany's memories of 'Braavos' and Braavos. Every single one of the claims about discrepancies are false, about half based on flat misrepresentations in the text and half based on her memories not being 'common' when she's a sheltered rich girl.

I got a bit carried away there; what I meant to say was that the drive to be the one who found out what was going to happen is just as dumb as wanting to be the one who shot it down. As you know english isn't my native and I wrote it with two minutes left on my lunch break so I got clumsy. 

For arguments sake; assume lemongate is proved correct in winds. Dany isn't really Dany and/or she grew up somewhere else. I doubt your "factual input" is gonna feel much better to you than anything I've argued would feel if GRRM gives an interview* and says "yeah, lemongate was all about the pact that didn't come to mean anything". It two sides of the same dumb coin.

As I said earlier, only GRRM can truly kill a theory and it's a bit silly to try and bash peoples views with what is ultimately only your own interpretation of the text. You're not more privy to GRRM's brain than any of the rest of us.

 

* I'm not totally sure GRRM is alway 100% truthful in interviews anyway so I might not admit defeat by it, giving what he said about purple eyes and Elizabeth Taylor. Five books with people being described to have purple eyes and he says they really aren't... 

[SFDanny]

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it's a very serious possibility.

It's why Dany hatched the dragons.  She's not just the product of the Targaryen royal line.  A line that had gone over a hundred years without being able to hatch a dragon.  My guess is she is the product of a reemergence of Targaryen bloodlines that had been split off since the time of the Dance of the Dragons.

It's one of the first history lessons of the Targaryen that we were given.  We learned that they wed brother to sister to keep the line pure because of their dragons.  We learned that there was a Dance of Dragons where brother warred against sister.  In other words even before George got into the details of the Dance, he wanted a split between brother and sister.  This is the time the Targaryens lost their dragons (their magic swords if you will.).  

Dany mentions on multiple occassions that she completely relied on Viserys to tell her about her background and her origins.  

My guess is there have been attempts to genetically engineer the Targaryen bloodlines.  And there are two ways of bringing that about.  One is marriage alliances.  But there is another way.

Perhaps the reason that George keeps bringing us back to whorehouses.  It's another way that you can manipulate bloodlines.  

So ironically, perhaps Dany hatched the dragons because she wasn't a Targaryen Princess.  Genes, even magical genes don't require a legal fiction of legitimacy.  They just require the correct combination of genes from mother and father.  No matter how that comingling comes about.

All of which is evidence Dany isn't the child of Aerys and Rhaella how? It's evidence that she, not Jon, is the child of Rhaegar and who? Lyanna or Rhaella? We all can play games of "what if?" until Martin actually delivers The Winds of Winter, or the cows come home, whichever comes first, but it isn't serious speculation based on evidence.

All evidence points to Daenerys being who she thinks she is. Daughter of Aerys the Mad King and his sister-wife Rhaella. Conceived shortly before the flight of Rhaella, Viserys, and Ser Willem Darry to Dragonstone before the sack of King's Landing. Born nine moon turns after the flight amidst a mammoth storm that destroys the Targaryen fleet. Escaping Dragonstone with her brother and Ser Willem after Rhaella's death from complications of Dany's birth. A Targaryen princess who grows up in exile in the Free Cities of Essos. All of this we have evidence to support. Your  "what ifs" aren't supported by any evidence. While you are welcome to muse on possibilities, it doesn't make the musings serious.

edit: for clarity's sake, we don't get many cows coming to my home in downtown San Francisco.

[The Green Bard]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:47 AM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm sorry where exactly in the story do we have mother and son. ffs it's ASOIAF, not the life story of Nero

Actually, if this is the essay I am thinking of, the preise would be that Lyanna is the mother.  or maybe Ashara, not Rhaella.

[corbon]

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

For arguments sake; assume lemongate is proved correct in winds. Dany isn't really Dany and/or she grew up somewhere else. I doubt your "factual input" is gonna feel much better to you than anything I've argued would feel if GRRM gives an interview* and says "yeah, lemongate was all about the pact that didn't come to mean anything". It two sides of the same dumb coin.

As I said earlier, only GRRM can truly kill a theory and it's a bit silly to try and bash peoples views with what is ultimately only your own interpretation of the text. You're not more privy to GRRM's brain than any of the rest of us.

I don't think this is just 'interpretation' of the text. The lemon tree thing - there's plenty of interpretation there, sure. 
But most of what I've argued against are strait facts, no interpretation.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that Dany's memories of Braavos are all indoors.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there is no 'warm air' in her memories.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there trees and gardens (and exotic things) in Braavos.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there are lots of houses, even wooden houses (though fewer of those).
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that the barefoot girl running toward the red door was a vision, not a memory. 

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

* I'm not totally sure GRRM is alway 100% truthful in interviews anyway so I might not admit defeat by it, giving what he said about purple eyes and Elizabeth Taylor. Five books with people being described to have purple eyes and he says they really aren't... 

Oh? I didn't know he used Elizabeth Taylor. Do you have a reference? I've been arguing for years that we shouldn't get too hung up on purple eyes (vis a vis secret identities, specifically Ashara Dayne/Lemore, but as a general rule as well) because purple eyes don't actually look purple most of the time without 'help'.  And using Elizabeth Taylor as my example - the most famous purple-eyed woman in the world. If you find photos of her without appropriate makeup, clothing or accessories, her eyes don't show as purple, more of a grey-blue.
I didn't realise he'd made a similar point!

[The Green Bard]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:39 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Now, I don’t think Martin would swap Tyrosh for Braavos only to have it not be Braavos. Not that this will convince anyone, but I thought I’d just throw it out there. 

Interesting, I would think it likely he did just that.  I mean, Tyrosh wouldn't have the lemongate problem, and he can read a map.  The retcon was for a reason, so why shouldn't the introduction of a mystery like this be the reason? 

Then, he even has his characters joke about being able to read a map in the Mercy chapter.  He is fully aware of the contradiction.  Why is everyone so sure that it was 100% in Braavos?  It doesn't have to mean that Dany actually is not from Aerys and Rhaella.  It could mean any number of other things.

[The Green Bard]

9 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that the barefoot girl running toward the red door was a vision, not a memory.

What reason do you have to think the vision wouldn't match her memories.  If you have no reason, it seems that your argument about the lack of memories outdoors is quite thin.  Seems very straightforward for a vision of a past event like this to not be a false one.  If you are arguing that it is false, it is an argument that needs support.  

[corbon]

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

Interesting, I would think it likely he did just that.  I mean, Tyrosh wouldn't have the lemongate problem, and he can read a map.  The retcon was for a reason, so why shouldn't the introduction of a mystery like this be the reason? 

Then, he even has his characters joke about being able to read a map in the Mercy chapter.  He is fully aware of the contradiction.  Why is everyone so sure that it was 100% in Braavos?  It doesn't have to mean that Dany actually is not from Aerys and Rhaella.  It could mean any number of other things.

Its not that I'm 100% sure that it was in Braavos. 
Its that most (all, virtually) of the quotes and arguments used to 'indicate' that it maybe was not in Braavos simply do not do so. 

The text says its Braavos. Thats our starting point. That can be wrong - characters can lie or be misinformed. But we need details that don't match. Instead we get details that do match. The secret pact being witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos is a huge one, for a starter. And thats completely independent and in-arguable. Argyuably you can add Dany apparently recalling only indoor memories as another if you want - she seems to have been in a cold place. You can even add the lemon tree as a distinguishing memory - it was clearly something exotic and unique, not mundane and widespread. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a key memory point for her.
Literally the only thing we have that doesn't match up 100% is the lemon tree, and even that matches up when you recognise that Dany was living in the courts and gardens of the mighty, where there are gardens, trees, exotics and other signs of wealth. then it further matches up when we learn about the pact. With Dorne. And as above, it even arguably supports her memories being in Braavos by being exotic and memorable rather than common and widespread.

That leaves literally nothing pointing to it being out of Braavos.

And only lies, deliberate or un-realised, arguing it isn't Braavos. A theory that relies on lies gets no shrift from me. Less so when its opposite theory has positive backup.

Thats fine, people can believe whatever bad theories they want.
But if they propagate lies to support their theory and try to convince other people, then I'll point out the lies.

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, corbon said:

Oh? I didn't know he used Elizabeth Taylor. Do you have a reference? I've been arguing for years that we shouldn't get too hung up on purple eyes (vis a vis secret identities, specifically Ashara Dayne/Lemore, but as a general rule as well) because purple eyes don't actually look purple most of the time without 'help'.  And using Elizabeth Taylor as my example - the most famous purple-eyed woman in the world. If you find photos of her without appropriate makeup, clothing or accessories, her eyes don't show as purple, more of a grey-blue.
I didn't realise he'd made a similar point!

You can find the whole chat here.

RanAshara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination.

George_RR_MartinI would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

 

[The Green Bard]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Literally the only thing we have that doesn't match up 100% is the lemon tree, and even that matches up when you recognise that Dany was living in the courts and gardens of the mighty, where there are gardens, trees, exotics and other signs of wealth.

This argument has been made many times, but I have never seen a greenhouse to be outside someone's bedroom window, regardless of the wealth or station of the landowner.  It doesn't fit.  It would be a huge mold problem, especially considering the wooden beams of the structure.  It is incongruent.  

[corbon]

6 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

What reason do you have to think the vision wouldn't match her memories.  If you have no reason, it seems that your argument about the lack of memories outdoors is quite thin.  Seems very straightforward for a vision of a past event like this to not be a false one.  If you are arguing that it is false, it is an argument that needs support.  

Its explicitly a vision, not a memory. You got that right? I showed the text that says it.

Now you argue that the vision might be based on a memory.
I've already proven that this vision is part of a fast series of allegorical visions that are definitely not based on memory. 

I'll break it down again for you.

Quote

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

1. These are explicitly visions, not memories

Quote

Faster and faster the visions came,

2. The visions are allegorical, not from her memories. Around the barefoot girl we have...
 - blue flower in wall of ice? Clearly not a memory but an allegorical vision (oops, thats the paragraph before, the last one)
 - MMD with a dragon bursting from her brow? Clearly not a memory, but an allegorical vision
 - behind her silver the bloody corpse? Could possibly be a memory, but we never saw such a thing. Could also be an allegorical vision.
 - the White Lion? She never saw such a thing, so clearly memory
 - the naked crones kneeling to her? They haven't done so, so its clearly not a memory
 - 10,000 slaves? That hasn't happened yet, so clearly not a memory.

The barefoot girl running toward the big house with the red door is a perfect allegory. Its Dany, barefoot representing her initial poverty and weakness, and the red-door-house representing her ideal of home, safety and security  that she longs for and runs towards -  without actually reaching.
But amongst all these visions and allegories, this one is based on a memory, because you want it to be?

These are not things she's seen, memories. They are things being shown to her, visions. they come from outside her (from the undying ones), not inside her.

2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

This argument has been made many times, but I have never seen a greenhouse to be outside someone's bedroom window, regardless of the wealth or station of the landowner.  It doesn't fit.  It would be a huge mold problem, especially considering the wooden beams of the structure.  It is incongruent.  

Its not in a greenhouse. There is no greenhouse.

Its a tree, freestanding, in a sheltered place against the house.
This is exactly where you put exotics from a warm climate in a colder climate like Braavos. Beside the (heated) house to give them as much protection as possible. 

I lived with my grandparents for a few years in my early twenties (cheaper and easier than flatting) in a cooler climate where there are occasional snows but regular frosts during winter. They had a very bountiful lemon tree, placed exactly so. Virtually against the house, between two bedrooms (theirs and the spare). This is done as the residual warmth from the heated house reduces the effects of the worst cold that might harm the tree, and the house itself protects against some of the elements.

It is precisely congruent. The only incongruence is you introducing a  fake element, the greenhouse.

They also had a greenhouse, but that was at the other end of the garden and the lemon tree wouldn't have fitted in it! 

[corbon]

38 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

You can find the whole chat here.

RanAshara Dayne is described as having violet eyes. Is this from a marriage to the Martells after Daeron II's sister married into that line, thus giving them some Targaryen features? From other Valyrian descendants? And, um, mind telling us the Dayne banner (emblem and field)? The Sword of the Morning and his sister has caught my imagination.

George_RR_MartinI would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . .look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer. Many Swedes have blue eyes, but not all those with blue eyes are Swedes, and not all Swedes have blue eyes. The same confusions exist in the 7 Kingdoms.

 

Thanks. 
So he wasn't making my point then.  Just that violet eyes happen outside of Valyrian genetics too. 

[The Green Bard]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

I've already proven that this vision is part of a fast series of allegorical visions that are definitely not based on memory. 

I wouldn't use the word proven, but certainly an allegorical argument can be made.

9 minutes ago, corbon said:

I lived with my grandparents for a few years in my early twenties (cheaper and easier than flatting) in a cooler climate where there are occasional snows but regular frosts during winter. They had a very bountiful lemon tree, placed exactly so. Virtually against the house, between two bedrooms (theirs and the spare). This is done as the residual warmth from the heated house reduces the effects of the worst cold that might harm the tree, and the house itself protects against some of the elements.

While you argue that my fallacy is to think that it must be in a greenhouse, your fallacy is to assume our author is aware of the conditions and types of situations that could allow such a plant to grow in such a foggy and cold climate.  The text in each volume argues against this. It indicates Dorne as the place where Citrus grows, and mentions the more southerly free cities as well.  This is counter to your argument, and the volume of mentions of this phenomenon MIGHT be indicative that his logic is counter to your own.  The fact that they ramp up as time progresses in the story is also very much a hallmark of our author's building up to a reveal.  It is certainly possible that your explanation is the reveal that is coming, but forgive me if I expect something different.

However, I can clearly see that there is more detailed analysis required on this forum.  There is definitely more than a tree in her memories that point to Dorne. 

 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

I wouldn't use the word proven, but certainly an allegorical argument can be made.

Proven that its part of a series of allegorical visions.
Proven that it is itself an allegorical vision? I don't see how thats possible. Its effectively trying to prove a negative - that its not a memory. But I would say the onus is very strongly on those saying it might be a memory different from the others in the list of visions to provide some evidence - which they don't have.

I do think its pretty damn clear that the people claiming it to be a memory simply haven't done their homework and followed the actual text as written. Its explicitly a vision.

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

While you argue that my fallacy is to think that it must be in a greenhouse,

Not a fallacy. You simply introduced an element that does not exist in the memories.

Its fake data.

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

your fallacy is to assume our author is aware of the conditions and types of situations that could allow such a plant to grow in such a foggy and cold climate. 

I've not assumed anything. I've simply stuck with the text. And my own real world experience exactly fits the textual description.

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

The text in each volume argues against this. It indicates Dorne as the place where Citrus grows, and mentions the more southerly free cities as well.  This is counter to your argument,

No it is not.
I agree, Dorne, and the southern Free Cities, are the places where lemon trees naturally grow.
In these places lemon trees are common, and plentiful.

In Braavos, lemon trees are not natural. They are exotic. Thus they are rare and notable. 
Dany's memories fit this precisely. She lived in a wealthy house, exactly where rare and exotic things are found, and the lemon tree was singular and notable (and also in the sort of location where an exotic would be placed).
if she lived in Dorne, there shoudl be many lemon trees and other similar trees. And probably more outdoorsy and warm memories. Probably.
Instead we get indoor memories only and nothing outdoors, nor warm.

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

and the volume of mentions of this phenomenon MIGHT be indicative that his logic is counter to your own.  The fact that they ramp up as time progresses in the story is also very much a hallmark of our author's building up to a reveal.  It is certainly possible that your explanation is the reveal that is coming, but forgive me if I expect something different.

Yes. And he's given us a reveal. The lemon tree is significant. It signifies Dany and Viserys' hidden Dornish support as revealed in the secret pact.

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

However, I can clearly see that there is more detailed analysis required on this forum.  There is definitely more than a tree in her memories that point to Dorne. 

 

I'll have a look if I get time. I hope its better than the embarrassingly incompetent essay touted here already.

[The Green Bard]

9 minutes ago, corbon said:

exactly where rare and exotic things are found

Also fake data.  

12 minutes ago, corbon said:

The lemon tree is significant. It signifies Dany and Viserys' hidden Dornish support as revealed in the secret pact.

Then why have Raff and the other guard argue about it extensively in "Mercy," well after said reveal.  He could have had Dareon make those arguments in the Happy Port instead in Feast.  It is out of place in Winds, unless there is more to it.

[corbon]

2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Also fake data.  

How so? Is it not outside her window? Does she not live in a rich house, therefore amongst the 'mighty'?

2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Then why have Raff and the other guard argue about it extensively in "Mercy," well after said reveal.  He could have had Dareon make those arguments in the Happy Port instead in Feast.  It is out of place in Winds, unless there is more to it.

Verisimilitude. And one, one paragraph conversation is hardly 'extensive'.

And Winds is not yet released. There may be more details that are relevant.

But this part is arguing interpretation, or depth of meaning, rather than simple data.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

your fallacy is to assume our author is aware of the conditions and types of situations that could allow such a plant to grow in such a foggy and cold climate. 

It is no rocket science, FFS. A wall or an elevated position affects the microclimate in a garden, it is a well-known and easily found fact that allows for exotic plants to be grown outside a greenhouse (to an extent, of course). I live in moderate climate but mediterranean plants like almonds, citruses and figs can be grown outside in botanical gardens or, cough, gardens of "the mighty" (chateaus). Some may require coverage for winter - the cold itself is not a problem, too much precipitation is.

7 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

The text in each volume argues against this. It indicates Dorne as the place where Citrus grows, and mentions the more southerly free cities as well.  This is counter to your argument, and the volume of mentions of this phenomenon MIGHT be indicative that his logic is counter to your own.  The fact that they ramp up as time progresses in the story is also very much a hallmark of our author's building up to a reveal.  It is certainly possible that your explanation is the reveal that is coming, but forgive me if I expect something different.

Yes. Certainly. Meaning, the presence of a lemon tree in Braavos apparently has some significance. Doesn't mean it absolutely cannot be Braavos.

[Amris]

8 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Also fake data.  

Then why have Raff and the other guard argue about it extensively in "Mercy," well after said reveal.  He could have had Dareon make those arguments in the Happy Port instead in Feast.  It is out of place in Winds, unless there is more to it.

While I am not really on your side - I still think I remember GRRM saying the Mercy chapter is actually old and had been written earlier than Dance but was pushed back from book to book.

So theoretically the Raff scene could have originally been meant as foreshadowing for something revealed in Dance.