(f)dany

[Amris]

17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

[snip]

We all can play games of "what if?" until Martin actually delivers The Winds of Winter, or the cows come home, whichever comes first,

[snip]

Yes, please.

People coming up with theories (whether true or not) is the main reason I still have fun on this forum. And it is what the forum is for.

Yes, most of the theories may be wrong. And some even be a bit over the top. But so what? We have no new book and need to entertain ourselves.

Let's all be civil and enjoy the forum and respect the other posters. (Not looking at anyone in particular).

[LynnS]

On 8/16/2020 at 5:30 PM, corbon said:

The perfumes of her Braavos memory are scented oils. They are not described as heady or sweet, nor as anything un-heady or un-sweet - which doesn't rule them out of course.

George has said that he explores the full range of the senses, so I don't think we can discount a scent memory or the tactile memory (of soft hands).  No doubt Dany has travelled around the free cities; but as an infant and toddler, that's not the case.  Lys fits the bill as well as any other place.  I'm not going to split hairs over types of perfumes.  The strongest point in Lys' favor is that Dany could be hidden there and not stand out in the population.  It's also Varys, stomping grounds if he was involved in hiding her in the first place. Lys covers all the bases from lemon trees to perfumes. The meaning of the red door and it's importance is unclear at this point.

This is a suggestion for consideration.  That's all.    

[Sigella]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't think this is just 'interpretation' of the text. The lemon tree thing - there's plenty of interpretation there, sure. 
But most of what I've argued against are strait facts, no interpretation.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that Dany's memories of Braavos are all indoors.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there is no 'warm air' in her memories.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there trees and gardens (and exotic things) in Braavos.
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that there are lots of houses, even wooden houses (though fewer of those).
Its a fact, no 'interpretation', that the barefoot girl running toward the red door was a vision, not a memory. 

Sure, but what all that might mean is 100% interpretation, no?

[Lord Browndodd]

14 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

This argument has been made many times, but I have never seen a greenhouse to be outside someone's bedroom window, regardless of the wealth or station of the landowner.  It doesn't fit.  It would be a huge mold problem, especially considering the wooden beams of the structure.  It is incongruent.  

A small extension to my porch, and I would have precisely this setup - citrus growing outside my bedroom window - in a climate pretty similar to that of Braavos.

[Frey family reunion]

23 hours ago, SFDanny said:

All of which is evidence Dany isn't the child of Aerys and Rhaella how? It's evidence that she, not Jon, is the child of Rhaegar and who? Lyanna or Rhaella?

Nah, the theory doesn't involve any of the usual suspects.  I suppose it's possible, but I'm not really overly concerned about the soap opera aspect.

The issue is twofold.  

1.  Dany's memories of a childhood that don't jive with what she's been told from Viserys.

2. Why Dany was the one who hatched dragons.

And the premise is very simple, and it is a premise with a foundation that was established back in the very first book.

1.  The Targaryens had married brother to sister to keep their bloodlines pure.

2.  Many years ago, there was something called the Dance of Dragons which pitted brother against sister.

3.  Many years ago the Targaryens lost their dragons.

Everything else is essentially window dressing.

The idea being that the royal line of Targaryens lost their ability to hatch dragons.  Something broke when rather than marry brother to sister, brother and sister went to war.  After that, no matter how many times the Targaryens wed brother to sister, and no matter how many times they tried, they couldn’t bring them back.

Until Dany that is.  

As the books unfold we are gradually given more information about the Targaryen past history.  We also start to get spoon fed some Targaryen lines that have broken off from the main branch.  We learn about House Plumm, House Blackfyre, and even House Longwater.  We even learn about a maternal house of sorts started by a Targaryen king, “House” Black Pearl.  

My guess is Dany may be the product of one or more of these lines rejoining to the royal line.  And this rejoinder could have happened by mere happenstance, or it could have been the result of intentional manipulation of bloodlines.  

If the former, then I think it is highly possible that it was the result of attempts to get women (or men) the right look.  I think we’re even told in the Worldbook, that Lysenian prostitutes are often bred to get the Valyrian look.  

And if intentional I think that brothels may have also been used as well.  After all, it’s awfully hard to arrange marriages especially if your only goal is to manipulate bloodlines.  Politics will always get in the way.  Brothels would be so much easier.  It also wouldn’t surprise me that if intentional, we may learn of the involvement of certain familiar names.  Perhaps Rhaegar who was so obsessed with Summerhall, which in turn dealt with a dream of dragons.  And/or Oberyn who seems to have an interest in rounding up his own bastards.  Oberyn’ s involvement would also explain why he would have had easy access to a very Targaryen looking girl.  

The brothel connection might also explain why Dany goes through so much of the books being called a whore.  GRRM is giving us a sly word association for a future reveal.

All of this may go a long way into explaining why Dany was considered so disposable to marry her off to a Dothraki horselord.  When as Illyrio acknowledged, he doubted that she would survive her experiences in the Dothraki Sea.  It seems like a real waste of the last Targaryen Princess.  Unless of course Dany isn’t, instead she is the daughter of a prostitute, then it starts to make more sense.  At least a little more sense.

But then lo and behold Dany goes and hatches dragons.  Now all of a sudden she goes from being disposable to being so much more than a mere Targaryen princess.

[kissdbyfire]

@Frey family reunion, how does the GoHH fit in this scenario? I mean, Jaehaerys  had Aerys marry and Rhaella b/c of what the GoHH said, that the PtwP would come from their line. 

[Frey family reunion]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Frey family reunion, how does the GoHH fit in this scenario? I mean, Jaehaerys  had Aerys marry and Rhaella b/c of what the GoHH said, that the PtwP would come from their line. 

I don’t think Dany is the prince(princess) that was promised.  She helps fulfill the prophecy but she she has her own distinct part to play.

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is Dany may be the product of one or more of these lines rejoining to the royal line.  And this rejoinder could have happened by mere happenstance, or it could have been the result of intentional manipulation of bloodlines.

Let me guess. You just completed a reread of "Dune"? If so, me too. However, I don't think Martin has the equivalent of the Bene Gesserit in his world.

My real point here is that, if your speculation is right, then there should be evidence of these lines rejoining. Not just "what ifs."  No problem with speculation, but there is a problem with giving guesses the same weight as evidence based theories. I know you know the difference, and know you to be a serious close reader of Martin's story. This idea is just is not based on real evidence.

[The Green Bard]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

However, I don't think Martin has the equivalent of the Bene Gesserit in his world.

Lol, no, he has Bloodraven.  Just as controlling and manipulative, but without the hallmarks of the Bene Gesserit success.  Dany happens after his influence is gone, and who know why it worked with her.  

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think Dany is the prince(princess) that was promised.  She helps fulfill the prophecy but she she has her own distinct part to play.

Yeah, I sort of left Jon out of the equation.

I was thinking about the essay linked earlier on lemongate, and how it only “works” (it doesn’t, actually) if R+L=/=J. 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I sort of left Jon out of the equation.

I was thinking about the essay linked earlier on lemongate, and how it only “works” (it doesn’t, actually) if R+L=/=J. 

Heh, well, yes Jon is the obvious answer.  But, there is another ...  

(But if you think you dislike this theory...)

[kissdbyfire]

34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Heh, well, yes Jon is the obvious answer.  But, there is another ...  

(But if you think you dislike this theory...)

 I don’t think I dislike it, I am sure of it.
But I’m intrigued... another possible obvious candidate would be fAegon, sans the “f” of course. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

 I don’t think I dislike it, I am sure of it.
But I’m intrigued... another possible obvious candidate would be fAegon, sans the “f” of course. 

 

Well let me put it this way, since I don't want to derail the thread (anymore than I already have).  Most of my theories come from the big universal questions that ASOIAF forces us to ask. 

Is it just me or is Jon being Rhaegar's son, really friggin obvious?

Why does everyone keep whining about having to get lemons in Dorne?

And what was the point of those Quentyn chapters, and will I ever be able to get those wasted minutes of my life back?

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let me guess. You just completed a reread of "Dune"? If so, me too.

I have to butt in - I love Dune. Why not?

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

However, I don't think Martin has the equivalent of the Bene Gesserit in his world.

My real point here is that, if your speculation is right, then there should be evidence of these lines rejoining. Not just "what ifs."  No problem with speculation, but there is a problem with giving guesses the same weight as evidence based theories. I know you know the difference, and know you to be a serious close reader of Martin's story. This idea is just is not based on real evidence.

The BG planning was seriously long term. Still, Rhaegar did attempt to join bloodlines in his relationship with Lyanna. He was inspired by prophecy, which maybe came from a dream, which maybe came from the mixed up consciousness that is the weirnet. There's your BG.

And I would love it if the Others were inspired by Honored Matres and foreshadowed by whores. A hope more fragile than tinfoil though....

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Rhaegar did attempt to join bloodlines in his relationship with Lyanna. He was inspired by prophecy,

We don’t actually know that, though. It’s a possibility, to be sure, but there’s quite a lot we don’t know yet about R+L. 

[corbon]

10 hours ago, Sigella said:

Sure, but what all that might mean is 100% interpretation, no?

These things don't 'mean' anything. Well, they might. Thats another discussion.
The point of these facts is that their opposites, fake 'facts', were used to give meaning in support of Lemongate. There is no 'meaning' in fake facts.  

ok, so what do they mean then. That other discussion.

1. Her memories are all (that we see) indoors. Meaning? Could be many, and mixed. Impossible IMO to ascertain accurately. Some ideas that occur to me;
 - she was being kept hidden? I think that works for all theories.
 - the climate was not pleasant out? I think that points towards, not away from, Braavos.
 - the usurpers knives were real? Or at least a risk worth protecting against. Again, I think that fits all theories.
 - your suggestions here? 
 - not forgetting... no meaning at all, she has other memories too that we don't see, its just that this particular one has psychological importance to her so it crops up again and again. That last, I think, is self evident.

2. There is no 'warm air' in her memories. Meaning? None. There is no 'anything' climate related in her memories except possibly 1. above. Neither warm nor hot, nor cold, nor anything specific, so nothing we can glean from it.

3. There are trees and gardens (and exotic things) in Braavos. Meaning? I can't see any useful meaning. Of course there are. Braavos has rich people and rich people like nice things, even when they are costly and not easy. That I think is universal.

4. There are lots of houses, even some wooden ones, in Braavos. Meaning? I can't see any useful meaning. Any city in the world would fit here.

5. The barefoot girl. Meaning? Well, I've given my allegorical understanding. Which may or may not be accurate, or complete.  I certainly can't see any better options, certainly none that we could use as useful 'facts'.

[corbon]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

George has said that he explores the full range of the senses, so I don't think we can discount a scent memory or the tactile memory (of soft hands). 

Agreed.

Quote

No doubt Dany has travelled around the free cities; but as an infant and toddler, that's not the case.  Lys fits the bill as well as any other place.  I'm not going to split hairs over types of perfumes. 

Agreed.
My point is that any other place fits the bill as well as Lys.
If all places fit the bill equally, then there is no point here of any value.

ETA: Thats not meaning to sound harsh. This feels like a husband/wife conversation. Wife shares a problem (or idea), husband tries to solve problem (or apply idea to discussion), both end up irritated as wife was just sharing, not looking for solution, and husband is irritated that wife doesn't like/want proposed solutions.
I'm not trying to shoot down the idea or cancel your voice when saying the point has no value. Just applying the idea to the issue and finding it doesn't help solve it in any logical fashion. Thats about me, not you.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

My point is that any other place fits the bill as well as Lys.
 

Fair enough.

[TeethGrinder]

On 8/12/2020 at 6:36 PM, kissdbyfire said:

That’s pure speculation. And that is my point. People take one assumption and run w/ it, making several others along the way and come up w/ “theories” that lack actual textual support. IMO.

Not only does that theory not lack textual support there's literally a chapter where characters are mocking the very notion Dany proposes. A pretty random circumstance that GRRM goes out of his way to ridicule. 

The arrogance some people have towards the people with wild theories is far worse than the theories themselves. It's a long wait. They're not hurting anyone. Why does it bother you so much? 

[Sigella]

On 8/20/2020 at 12:02 AM, corbon said:

These things don't 'mean' anything. Well, they might. Thats another discussion.
The point of these facts is that their opposites, fake 'facts', were used to give meaning in support of Lemongate. There is no 'meaning' in fake facts.  

ok, so what do they mean then. That other discussion.

1. Her memories are all (that we see) indoors. Meaning? Could be many, and mixed. Impossible IMO to ascertain accurately. Some ideas that occur to me;
 - she was being kept hidden? I think that works for all theories.
 - the climate was not pleasant out? I think that points towards, not away from, Braavos.
 - the usurpers knives were real? Or at least a risk worth protecting against. Again, I think that fits all theories.
 - your suggestions here? 
 - not forgetting... no meaning at all, she has other memories too that we don't see, its just that this particular one has psychological importance to her so it crops up again and again. That last, I think, is self evident.

2. There is no 'warm air' in her memories. Meaning? None. There is no 'anything' climate related in her memories except possibly 1. above. Neither warm nor hot, nor cold, nor anything specific, so nothing we can glean from it.

3. There are trees and gardens (and exotic things) in Braavos. Meaning? I can't see any useful meaning. Of course there are. Braavos has rich people and rich people like nice things, even when they are costly and not easy. That I think is universal.

4. There are lots of houses, even some wooden ones, in Braavos. Meaning? I can't see any useful meaning. Any city in the world would fit here.

5. The barefoot girl. Meaning? Well, I've given my allegorical understanding. Which may or may not be accurate, or complete.  I certainly can't see any better options, certainly none that we could use as useful 'facts'.

Ok I think youre missing my point here...

 

edit: I argue that 100% of what you've said above is in fact interpretation.