(f)dany

[The Green Bard]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rhaegal is one of Dany’s dragons, Rhaegel was Maekar’s brother.

 

As an audiobook reader, chiefly, I would have missed that little bit unless I noticed it in researching on asearchoficeandfire.com ...  Either way, to answer your earlier question, Bloodraven, being Aerys hand, sorcery advisor, etc.  If he deemed Aelinor Penrose unsuitable to bear an heir (from a kingsblood perspective), he undoubtedly would have counseled him to shun her.  I believe this scenario is even suggested by whichever maester wrote that section of TWoIaF, although it isn't saying why he shunned her.  I am merely suggesting this scenario to fill in that gap.

[The Wondering Wolf]

The Worldbook only tells us Aerys was a bookish guy who spent a lot of time with scrolls and prophecies and who was just not interested in having sex with his wife. When his councillors asked him to set aside his marriage with Aelinor and to take another wife, he did not do that. Now one can assume a super power masterplan by BR or one can deduce Aerys was not interested in sex at all.

[Anck Su Namun]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, CamiloRP said:

I just finished rereading ASOIAF again and I found myself thinking about an essay I read a few years back, titled "(f)dany" (I think) that compiles a lot of evidence about how Dany is Rhaegar's daughter instead of his sister, I wanted to read that essay again but couldn't find it. Anyone knows where it is?

thanks a lot!

The Prince that was promised had to come from Targaryen parents.  I.e. Targaryen on both sides.  Rhaegar fathering Daenerys on Rhaella meets that criteria.  However, there is more evidence to support King Aerys as the father.  The Prince that was promised, to be a true prince/princess, must not be a bastard.  Otherwise, they would not be a princess or a prince.  I believe Aerys is the father and Rhaella the mother.  This gifted child must be born from a marriage.  Rhaella and Aerys could not divorce and the door is closed to the possibility of a second marriage for either of them. 

I am not saying there won't be charlatans and grifters making claims to the throne.  George has already said a few more will sit on the throne.  There will be grifters who will get to enjoy the seat of power.  Until they get roasted by the dragons whose fire built that throne.  Drogon is the reincarnation of the great Balerion.  I expect Cersei, Jaime, Faegon, and maybe Jon to temporarily put their butts on the throne.  Jon as the Ice King.  Daenerys and her dragons will come and take back the throne from those charlatans.  The last charlatan to sit before her arrival will be the third treason and the third execution by fire. 

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

As an audiobook reader, chiefly, I would have missed that little bit unless I noticed it in researching on asearchoficeandfire.com ...  Either way, to answer your earlier question, Bloodraven, being Aerys hand, sorcery advisor, etc.  If he deemed Aelinor Penrose unsuitable to bear an heir (from a kingsblood perspective), he undoubtedly would have counseled him to shun her.  I believe this scenario is even suggested by whichever maester wrote that section of TWoIaF, although it isn't saying why he shunned her.  I am merely suggesting this scenario to fill in that gap.

Undoubtedly? I don’t see anything in the text to suggest this, so I’d say there are many, many doubts regarding the accuracy of this statement. More importantly, what does Bloodraven gain from something like this? Bloodraven can’t be certain that  Aerys I dying w/o issue will benefit him in any way - if that was his intent. I’m most definitely not on the “Bloodraven did it all” camp. I mean, how incredibly boring and simplistic would it be, to have one evil mastermind puppeteer manipulating everyone and everything. Almost like in one of the old James Bond films. 

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Worldbook only tells us Aerys was a bookish guy who spent a lot of time with scrolls and prophecies and who was just not interested in having sex with his wife. When his councillors asked him to set aside his marriage with Aelinor and to take another wife, he did not do that. Now one can assume a super power masterplan by BR or one can deduce Aerys was not interested in sex at all.

That’s my take from it as well. 

[Ser Leftwich]

Nothing says "accurate prophecy" like predicting the legal definition of 'marriage' in an evolving political environment of the future.

7 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The Prince that was promised had to come from Targaryen parents.  I.e. Targaryen on both sides.  Rhaegar fathering Daenerys on Rhaella meets that criteria.  However, there is more evidence to support King Aerys as the father.  The Prince that was promised, to be a true prince/princess, must not be a bastard.

 

[Anck Su Namun]

Just now, Ser Leftwich said:

Nothing says "accurate prophecy" like predicting the legal definition of 'marriage' in an evolving political environment of the future.

 

Princess and prince are legal titles.  Those titles convey certain rights and privileges supported by the law.  So if the prophecies goes to the trouble of using those titles then it must be important. 

[The Green Bard]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Undoubtedly? I don’t see anything in the text to suggest this, so I’d say there are many, many doubts regarding the accuracy of this statement

Undoubtedly under my if statement. If he thought Aelinor not a suitable mother to a king, then undoubtedly he would not want Aerys to make an heir with her.  It's a language thing. 

Quote

Assuming the throne in 209 AC, Daeron's second son, Aerys, had never imagined he would be king, and was singularly ill suited to sit the Iron Throne. Aerys was learned, in his way, though his interests were largely to do with dusty tomes concerned with ancient prophecy and the higher mysteries. Wed to Aelinor Penrose, he never showed an interest in getting her with child, and rumor had it that he had even failed to consummate the marriage. His small council, at their wits' ends, hoped it was simply some dislike of her that moved him, and thus they urged him to put her aside to take another wife. But he would not hear of it.

All I am saying is that it is possible that the highlighted dislike of her was encouraged by Bloodraven.

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

More importantly, what does Bloodraven gain from something like this? Aerys I dying w/o issue will benefit him in any way - if that was his intent. I’m most definitely not on the “Bloodraven did it all” camp. I mean, how incredibly boring and simplistic would it be, to have one evil mastermind puppeteer manipulating everyone and everything.

I mean, restoring the royal bloodline to the capability to hatch dragons certainly seems the arc of Eggs character, and Bloodraven certainly has his hands all over these types of things.  Manipulators manipulate.  However, I agree that "Ford planned it all (If you're a Westworld fan)" or "Bran did everything by time travel" or "Bloodraven planned it all" is not what it should be.  But to suggest that means he didn't try to manipulate a lot of things is kinda missing the point.  He was quite clearly presented to us as a control freak in "The Sworn Sword." Ideas like this as to how he manipulated and exerted influence and control are the obvious type of next step.  Clearly we don't have enough info to validate each one of them, but just because you find it boring doesn't mean the rest of us don't find it interesting.  I would appreciate a bit less condescension here. 

[The Green Bard]

39 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The Worldbook

was written by maesters a hundred years later.  Encouraging us to imagine the "whys" of these things are exactly why Martin wrote it in this way.  I am merely suggesting one particular reason he wouldn't want to have sex with his wife.  Given that Bloodraven was his hand and the man was also interested in sorcery, clearly he would be in a position to influence the king far more than anyone else. 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Undoubtedly under my if statement. If he thought Aelinor not a suitable mother to a king, then undoubtedly he would not want Aerys to make an heir with her.  It's a language thing. 
 

Sure.

21 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

All I am saying is that it is possible that the highlighted dislike of her was encouraged by Bloodraven.
 

Given what we get in the text, it’s possible mostly because it isn’t impossible, rather than there being clues or hints to it. 

21 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I mean, restoring the royal bloodline to the capability to hatch dragons certainly seems the arc of Eggs character, and Bloodraven certainly has his hands all over these types of things.  Manipulators manipulate.  However, I agree that "Ford planned it all (If you're a Westworld fan)" or "Bran did everything by time travel" or "Bloodraven planned it all" is not what it should be.  But to suggest that means he didn't try to manipulate a lot of things is kinda missing the point.  He was quite clearly presented to us as a control freak in "The Sworn Sword." Ideas like this as to how he manipulated and exerted influence and control are the obvious type of next step.  Clearly we don't have enough info to validate each one of them, but just because you find it boring doesn't mean the rest of us don't find it interesting.  I would appreciate a bit less condescension here. 

I am certain Bloodraven was involved in a lot of things, but not nearly as many as people (in general) seem to think. Not sure what you mean, but no condescension was meant. 

[James West]

4 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Totally agree.  Her merit trumps any concern over parentage.  However, parentage and secrecy around it will cause some to backstab her in favor of Aegon, and Jon Snow later.  THe politics will matter, though merit should be the most important thing.  Might makes right and all.  

If you read through the entire thread over on last hearth, toward the end, you will see how I have suggested that even if Dany was brought up for a time in Dorne, not Braavos, and even if there really were two Willem Darry's, there is a scenario that fits Martin's writing style where she still is Aerys and Rhaella's child.  

Concerns over parentage!  If there is to be concerns over parentage it will be on Aegon's and Jon's.  Dany has the almost perfect looks of the Targaryen family.  Her life has been tracked and monitored since birth.  Don't forget the dragons.  What did Aemon say to Sam, the dragons prove her identity.  Something to that effect.  

Questions of identity will surely play a part in this story but it is not going to be hers which will be in doubt.  Aegon may fool some people for a while until the lie is revealed.  It won't go well for him.  The three lies that must be slain are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.  Slain can mean slaying the lie rather than the liars but the meaning can also be literal.  

 

[James West]

4 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The Prince that was promised had to come from Targaryen parents.  I.e. Targaryen on both sides.  Rhaegar fathering Daenerys on Rhaella meets that criteria.  However, there is more evidence to support King Aerys as the father.  The Prince that was promised, to be a true prince/princess, must not be a bastard.  Otherwise, they would not be a princess or a prince.  I believe Aerys is the father and Rhaella the mother.  This gifted child must be born from a marriage.  Rhaella and Aerys could not divorce and the door is closed to the possibility of a second marriage for either of them. 

I am not saying there won't be charlatans and grifters making claims to the throne.  George has already said a few more will sit on the throne.  There will be grifters who will get to enjoy the seat of power.  Until they get roasted by the dragons whose fire built that throne.  Drogon is the reincarnation of the great Balerion.  I expect Cersei, Jaime, Faegon, and maybe Jon to temporarily put their butts on the throne.  Jon as the Ice King.  Daenerys and her dragons will come and take back the throne from those charlatans.  The last charlatan to sit before her arrival will be the third treason and the third execution by fire. 

Cersei and Jaime are not included in the lies.  They will be taken care of before Dany arrives in Westeros.  There is no way Aegon sits on that throne while the Lannisters and their children are alive.  So one has to go first before the other can sit.  The liars will be Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.  Stannis claiming he's Azor Ahai, Aegon pretends he's the heir, and Jon pretending to be a Targaryen.  All three will be publicly revealed as liars.  What consequences there are for them will be interesting.  Dracarys please.  

[The Green Bard]

32 minutes ago, James West said:

Questions of identity will surely play a part in this story but it is not going to be hers which will be in doubt.  Aegon may fool some people for a while until the lie is revealed.  It won't go well for him.  The three lies that must be slain are Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.  Slain can mean slaying the lie rather than the liars but the meaning can also be literal.  

Yes I agree that it will go tough for Aegon in the end, but my point was that if he were who he claims to be, then he has a better claim than her.  I also agree that there is no plot reason she needs to be anyone other than who she claims to be (though I will say that the idea that she is really Rhaegar's daughter is a bit fun, albeit completely wrong based upon what we know to be).

Sorry man, but Jon is not the third lie in that vision, though it's clear that you are right about the first 2.  The third vision represents Littlefinger.

Quote

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

"From a Smoking Tower" = House Grafton, his employer where he made a name for himself in Gulltown, before Robert / Jon Arryn hired him.

  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Grafton.svg

"Great Stone Beast" = Titan of Braavos, his former sigil.  

"Took wing" = his new sigil, the mockingbird, he casts off the stone beast sigil for the mockingbird, taking wing.

"breathing shadow fire."  In general, I take this to mean that he exercises power through working in the shadows. Shadow fire could also be a metaphor for lying itself. It's also possible that he has some magical ability as well, though that is tinfoil and very slim on evidence. I don't eliminate it though.

[Amris]

14 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes I agree that it will go tough for Aegon in the end, but my point was that if he were who he claims to be, then he has a better claim than her.  I also agree that there is no plot reason she needs to be anyone other than who she claims to be (though I will say that the idea that she is really Rhaegar's daughter is a bit fun, albeit completely wrong based upon what we know to be).

Sorry man, but Jon is not the third lie in that vision, though it's clear that you are right about the first 2.  The third vision represents Littlefinger.

"From a Smoking Tower" = House Grafton, his employer where he made a name for himself in Gulltown, before Robert / Jon Arryn hired him.

  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Grafton.svg

"Great Stone Beast" = Titan of Braavos, his former sigil.  

"Took wing" = his new sigil, the mockingbird, he casts off the stone beast sigil for the mockingbird, taking wing.

"breathing shadow fire."  In general, I take this to mean that he exercises power through working in the shadows. Shadow fire could also be a metaphor for lying itself. It's also possible that he has some magical ability as well, though that is tinfoil and very slim on evidence. I don't eliminate it though.

Ah - no.

The Smoking Tower was the burning First Keep in Winterfell when Theon set the castle aflame.

The Stone Beast that took wing was the gargolye that fell down from the First Keep during the fire. It is an allegory for Bran who fell at exactly the same spot that the gargoyle fell. Correspondingly the fallen gargolye still stares sightlessly at the sky.

So that line of the HotU prophecy is Bran.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

22 hours ago, Anck Su Namun said:

The Prince that was promised had to come from Targaryen parents.  I.e. Targaryen on both sides.  Rhaegar fathering Daenerys on Rhaella meets that criteria.  However, there is more evidence to support King Aerys as the father.  The Prince that was promised, to be a true prince/princess, must not be a bastard.  Otherwise, they would not be a princess or a prince.  I believe Aerys is the father and Rhaella the mother.  This gifted child must be born from a marriage.  Rhaella and Aerys could not divorce and the door is closed to the possibility of a second marriage for either of them. 

I am not saying there won't be charlatans and grifters making claims to the throne.  George has already said a few more will sit on the throne.  There will be grifters who will get to enjoy the seat of power.  Until they get roasted by the dragons whose fire built that throne.  Drogon is the reincarnation of the great Balerion.  I expect Cersei, Jaime, Faegon, and maybe Jon to temporarily put their butts on the throne.  Jon as the Ice King.  Daenerys and her dragons will come and take back the throne from those charlatans.  The last charlatan to sit before her arrival will be the third treason and the third execution by fire. 

I don't support fake Dany theories, but where is it said that TPTWP must have two Targaryen parents? The woods witch prophecy was specifically that TPTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Other/previous versions of the prophecy don't seem to say anything like this, given that Melisandre is convinced Stannis is TPTWP, and he only has a Targaryen grandmother (and I can't recall Melisandre ever making a big deal out of that). I also think that the way George uses prophecy I wouldn't insist that everything must be 100% literal and thus the person must hold the legal title of prince/princess. 

[Damsel in Distress]

19 hours ago, James West said:

Cersei and Jaime are not included in the lies.  They will be taken care of before Dany arrives in Westeros.  There is no way Aegon sits on that throne while the Lannisters and their children are alive.  So one has to go first before the other can sit.  The liars will be Stannis, Aegon, and Jon.  Stannis claiming he's Azor Ahai, Aegon pretends he's the heir, and Jon pretending to be a Targaryen.  All three will be publicly revealed as liars.  What consequences there are for them will be interesting.  Dracarys please.  

There is time enough in the story to allow Jaime to sit on the throne for a brief time.  The younger, more beautiful queen will kill him.  Cersei dies a short time after. 

[The Green Bard]

On 8/25/2020 at 1:03 PM, Amris said:

The Stone Beast that took wing was the gargolye that fell down from the First Keep during the fire. It is an allegory for Bran who fell

I guess if I squint, I can fit the broken tower.

As to the gargoyle, where are the wings? It fell. Falling and flying are clearly identified in Bran's dreams as being different things, even if Sweet Robin conflates them. In the context of Bran, falling is NOT flying. Besides, what lie is there to slay about Bran?

Tyrion is often represented by a gargoyle and is in Bran's dream during his visit, in fact, but as to slaying lies, he isn't a very good fit either. He intends to give Dany honest counsel, best I can tell.

Baelish, though, is the biggest liar in the story.

[The Green Bard]

On 8/25/2020 at 6:08 PM, Damsel in Distress said:

There is time enough in the story to allow Jaime to sit on the throne for a brief time.  The younger, more beautiful queen will kill him.  Cersei dies a short time after. 

Interesting concept.  While I agree that there is time for whatever the author wishes to do, I don't get the idea that he intends Jaime to seek the throne.  Since he met Brienne and since Tyrion told him of Cersei's infidelity, I don't see him making any attempts to amass power.  

[Amris]

9 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I guess if I squint, I can fit the broken tower.

As to the gargoyle, where are the wings? It fell. Falling and flying are clearly identified in Bran's dreams as being different things, even if Sweet Robin conflates them. In the context of Bran, falling is NOT flying. Besides, what lie is there to slay about Bran?

Tyrion is often represented by a gargoyle and is in Bran's dream during his visit, in fact, but as to slaying lies, he isn't a very good fit either. He intends to give Dany honest counsel, best I can tell.

Baelish, though, is the biggest liar in the story.

Gargoyles often are depicted with wings. Look at old churches and cathedrals. (Or use the D&D Monster Manual )

As for flying - where do you get that from? The HotU line does not mention flying. It says 'took wing'. You interpret that as flying. The text does not say that though.

The gargolye fell ('took wing') at exactly the same spot that Bran fell. And GRRM felt the need to tell us that explicitly. TWICE. And to show us the gargoyles as early as Bran's firsts chapter when he climbs along the top of the First Keep. AND GRRM felt the need to add the fiery winged snake over Winterfell just at the moment that the gargoyle came down. And to remind us of it again books later in a Theon chapter where the gargoyles peeps out of the snow staring into the sky. Just like Bran sees things.

House Grafton is not it and the Titan of Braavos has nothing to do with it, sorry. The HotU line is about Bran.

[The Green Bard]

6 hours ago, Amris said:

As for flying - where do you get that from? The HotU line does not mention flying. It says 'took wing'. You interpret that as flying. The text does not say that though.

Sure, it is my interpretation, but my interpretation happens to also be the accepted definition of the phrase, from Merriam-Websters (definition one):

Quote

take wing ( idiom )
Definition of take wing: to begin to fly
The ducks took wing and flew away.

Falling is not flying, nor beginning to fly.

Definition 2 is not applicable, IMO, but I include it for context.

Quote

 

—often used figuratively

Let your imagination take wing and explore the possibilities.

 

Sure Gargoyles have wings, but the one you're describing didn't take wing.  Your write-up in the earlier thread considers Summer's smoke-sky serpent, but then you switch gears to the gargoyle, a tenuous connection, at best.

I read through your thread and the linked one about Jon.  I applaud your detail, but I think you may err in throwing away so many potential smoking towers so quickly.  The logic you use to do so is a fallacy. 

The whole Jon thing does have a lie to slay, I guess, about his identity not being a bastard but that of a Targaryen Prince, but I don't see where Dany slaying it would work, more likely she would want RLJ to be a lie, but it turns out to be true. Further, the stone beast parts of the Jon write-up are forced, as is your argument about the gargoyle taking wing.  For Bran Flying and falling are different things, not to be conflated, which you are doing.  His dreams are clear on this:

Quote

It seemed as though he had been falling for years.
Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.
Maester Luwin made a little boy of clay, baked him till he was hard and brittle, dressed him in Bran's clothes, and flung him off a roof. Bran remembered the way he shattered. "But I never fall," he said, falling.

-AGoT - Bran III

I also don't see where there is even a metaphor that Bran is that gargoyle, where do you cover that?

Finally, there is also no lie to slay.  As far as I can tell, you never even bring that crucial element up. 

My interpretation, OTOH, is simple; all the elements fit, with only one element that is relatively undefined, the breathing of shadow fire, which is figuratively defined in each of our interpretations.  Its target, Baelish, is also a big walking lie, waiting to be slain. If this idea has a weakness, I would only say that, thematically, I would much prefer and expect Sansa to slay him, but we'll see how it plays out.  Perhaps she outs him, but he escapes her.

Certainly I'll keep the other 2 interpretations in mind, but I see the one I present as a much more compelling fit.

[Wolfking007]

Who is the perfumed senechal from Quaithes warning? Does anyone know?