(f)dany

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 1/30/2021 at 2:05 PM, Megorova said:

Except current generation (Jon, Robb, etc.) in the entire family-tree of House Stark, there was no mentioning of other skinchangers. Here's your prove:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skinchanger#Known_skinchangers

Also, when Bran and Rickon and Arya and Jon realised that they are wargs, they never ever mentioned anything about any of their Stark-ancestors having similar abilities.

George Martin published The World of Ice and Fire book, and Fire & Blood book, and five books from the main series, and three more books from Dunk&Egg series. And NONE of them mentioned a historical Stark-skinchanger (besides current generation).

That's TEN BOOKS IN TOTAL. If there were skinchangers amongst historical Starks, then GRRM would have mentioned them by now, don't you think?

If a skinchanging is a family trait specific for Starks, then not to mentioned it by now, would have been the same as never mentioning until Dany that historical Targaryens, people from House Targaryen besides Dany, were also dragonlords, dragonriders, dragonseeds.

I'm not sure why the Stark kids are all wargs despite the lack of other known wargs in the prior generations of the family, but it's possible it has to do with magic becoming stronger and/or that some prior Starks hid or suppressed their abilities because wargs are not viewed positively in the Seven Kingdoms, to say the least. 

But setting that aside, I wanted to focus on the lack of internal consistency in your argument. Your position is that the Starks inherited their warging abilities from Bloodraven's sister who was supposedly Melantha Blackwood's mother (despite there being no evidence for this), and that this ability comes from Larra Rogare, whose mother was supposedly Johanna Swann (despite there also being no evidence for this, nor for Johanna Swann being a warg, and at most a hint for Larra ). As you can probably tell, I'm pretty skeptical just from all these assumptions, but even setting that aside, you use the lack of known wargs among previous Starks as proof that this ability doesn't come from them, yet the fact that there are no known Targaryen wargs besides Bloodraven or any among the previous Starks descended from Melantha isn't a problem for your theory. Instead this can be solved by inventing more ancestral connections to Aegon IV in Catelyn's family tree and making some argument about how both parents need to have this gene. But even this reasoning still leaves several examples of prominent Targaryens who are not noted to be wargs despite fulfilling this criteria. Daeron II and his sister Daenerys were the children of Aegon IV and his sister-wife, so shouldn't they have gotten the gene from both sides? What about Aerys and Rhaella, and their children? They all had descent from Aegon IV on both sides as well. Also, why was Bloodraven a warg? Did Melissa Blackwood have this gene too?

As I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not exactly sure why the warging ability is surfacing in all the Stark kids now, but I'll take the field of other possible explanations over "they have distant descent from Aegon IV (whose mother was a secret warg) on both sides through a series of connections that have no textual support."

[Lord Browndodd]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm not sure why the Stark kids are all wargs despite the lack of other known wargs in the prior generations of the family, but it's possible it has to do with magic becoming stronger and/or that some prior Starks hid or suppressed their abilities because wargs are not viewed positively in the Seven Kingdoms, to say the least. 

But setting that aside, I wanted to focus on the lack of internal consistency in your argument. Your position is that the Starks inherited their warging abilities from Bloodraven's sister who was supposedly Melantha Blackwood's mother (despite there being no evidence for this), and that this ability comes from Larra Rogare, whose mother was supposedly Johanna Swann (despite there also being no evidence for this, nor for the fact that either one of them were wargs). As you can probably tell, I'm pretty skeptical just from all these assumptions, but even setting that aside, you use the lack of known wargs among previous Starks as proof that this ability doesn't come from them, yet the fact that there are no known Targaryen wargs besides Bloodraven or any among the previous Starks descended from Melantha isn't a problem for your theory. Instead this can be solved by inventing more ancestral connections to Aegon IV in Catelyn's family tree and making some argument about how both parents need to have this gene. But even this reasoning still leaves several examples of prominent Targaryens who are not noted to be wargs despite fulfilling this criteria. Daeron II and his sister Daenerys were the children of Aegon IV and his sister-wife, so shouldn't they have gotten the gene from both sides? What about Aerys and Rhaella, and their children? They all had descent from Aegon IV on both sides as well. Also, why was Bloodraven a warg? Did Melissa Blackwood have this gene too?

As I said at the beginning of this post, I'm not exactly sure why the warging ability is surfacing in all the Stark kids now, but I'll take the field of other possible explanations over "they have distant descent from Aegon IV (whose mother was a secret warg) on both sides through a series of connections that have no textual support."

To be fair, she says that Serenei of Lys and Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar were both skinchangers of cats, which seems a reasonable interpretation of the text to me.  Cats, not wolves, yes, but however the skinchanging bond is formed, it seems to require physical proximity, and opportunities for Targs, Lysenes and residents of King's Landing to achieve psionic communion with wolves must be extremely few and far between.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

14 minutes ago, Lord Browndodd said:

To be fair, she says that Serenei of Lys and Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar were both skinchangers of cats, which seems a reasonable interpretation of the text to me.  Cats, not wolves, yes, but however the skinchanging bond is formed, it seems to require physical proximity, and opportunities for Targs, Lysenes and residents of King's Landing to achieve psionic communion with wolves must be extremely few and far between.

I'm not sure how Serenei of Lys is relevant, but even if you buy the notion that Rhaenys was a warg (a strech to me, but not completely implausible), that still leaves several prominent people known to fulfill the criteria of descent from Aegon IV (and/or his sister-wife) on both sides with no hint of any warging ability.  Wolves are not the only animal besides cats that can be warged (and I doubt any recent Starks before the current generation had any more of an opportunity to form a bond with one than the residents of KL), Varamyr explicitly states that dogs are very easy to control, and we see other animals be warged as well. Whatever the explanation for the warging abilities of the Stark kids, secret distant ancestry from a Targaryen king on both sides that relies on a half dozen parentage assumptions that have no basis in the text does not strike me as a plausible, let alone likely, scenario.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Your position is that the Starks inherited their warging abilities from Bloodraven's sister who was supposedly Melantha Blackwood's mother

No, wrong. My position is that they have skinchanging abilities because they inherited skinchanging genes from two lines of DNA, one from their mother and one from their father. And it works same as inheriting red hair genes.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/ginger-redhead-hair-dna-study-inherit-uk-biobank-edinburgh-university-a8677551.html

"Previous studies have shown that people with ginger hair inherit two versions of the MC1R gene, one from each of their biological parents."

For a child to have red hair, he or she has to get two versions of this MC1R gene. The same thing with skinchanging. This is a very simplified explanation/formula:

Johanna Swann (S0) + Lysandro Rogare = Larra Rogare (S0) (in House Crane specifically their females are skinchangers, so could be that from mother to daughter the gene/ability is passed directly, even if the other parent is not a carrier)

1) Aegon (Sa) + Naerys (Sa) = Daeron (Sa), Daenerys (Sa)

Daeron (Sa) + Mariah Martell = Maekar (Sa)

Maekar (Sa) + Dyanna Dayne = Aegon V (Sa)

Aegon V (Sa) + Betha Blackwood = Jaehaerys (Sa), Shaera (Sa)

Jaehaerys (Sa) + Shaera (Sa) = Aerys (Sa), Rhaella (Sa)

Aerys (Sa) + Rhaella (Sa) = Rhaegar (Sa)

2) Aegon (Sa) + Melissa Blackwood = Mya Rivers (Sb)

Mya (Sb) + Blackwood husband = Melantha (Sb)

Melantha (Sb) + Willam Stark = Edwyle (Sb)

Edwyle (Sb) + Marna Locke = Rickard (Sb)

Rickard (Sb) + Lyarra Stark = Ned (Sb), Lyanna (Sb)

3) Aegon (Sa) + Falene Stokeworth = Jeyne Lothston (Sc)

Aegon (Sa) + Jeyne (Sc) = The Bastard of Harrenhal (SaSc) - possibly a skinchanger. Only in case if he did inherited Skinchanging genes from both of his parents. Because both of his parents could have been carriers, but one of them or both of them didn't passed to their child specifically this genes. The child gets from his/her mother 50% of DNA, and the same amount from the father. So could be that in those 50% of DNA that he got from one (or both) of his parents, there was no this skinchanging gene, instead it was in the other 50%, which the child didn't inherited.

The Bastard (SaSc or Sa or Sc) + wife = First Lord Whent/Shella Whent's grandfather (Sa or Sc)

Shella Whent's father and his siblings + spouses = Shella, Oswell, Walter, Minisa (Sa or Sc)

Minisa (Sa or Sc) + Hoster Tully = Catelyn (Sa or Sc)

Catelyn (Sa or Sc) + Ned (Sb) = Robb (SaSb or ScSb), Sansa (SaSb or ScSb), Bran (SaSb or ScSb), Arya (SaSb or ScSb), Rickon (SaSb or ScSb) - all of them skinchangers, because they have two different S-genes. Sb that they got from Mya Rivers, and either Sa or Sc that they got from Mya's half-brother, the Bastard of Harrenhal, Aegon's secret son.

Lyanna (Sb) + Rhaegar (Sa) = Jon (SaSb) - a skinchanger. He got Sb from Aegon's daughter Mya Rivers, thru Lyanna, and Sa from Aegon's son Daeron, thru Rhaegar.

There's also Rhaenys, who got her skinchanging genes from Daeron thru Rhaegar, and from Daenerys thru Elia Martell; and possibly Robert Arryn, who got one gene from his mother, Lysa, and the other from his real father, Petyr Baelish, who is also a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal. The Sellsword from Braavos, who was Littlefinger's great grandfather, is a son of the Bastard of Harrenhal and an Otherys-girl (one of Aegon's granddaughters), he also possibly was a skinchanger, if he got a skinchanging gene from each of his parents. That Otherys-girl possibly also was a carrier.

If Otheryses, Black Pearls of Braavos and their siblings and cousins, intermarried same as Targaryens, then amongst them also could be people with skinchanging abilities. And if that is so, then, most likely, they are cat-skinchangers, what's with the cat theme being strongly present in Braavos.

(This requires additional explanation. If direct descendants of the three children of Bellegere Otherys intermarried, then they all will be carriers of the same one gene, same as Jaehaerys+Shaera, Aerys+Rhaella. Though, if the Bastard of Harrenhal came to Braavos and had a relationship with one of Otherys-girls from the second generation (with Aegon's granddaughter), and they had more than one child, then one of those children became a Sellsword (Littlefinger's great grandfather, who left Braavos and went to live at Westeros), while the other one married with his/her cousin, one of other Otheryses, and that way their child will be a carrier of two different skinchanging genes, and as result will be a skinchanger. Or a mixing of genes could have happened between their family members in later generations.)

6 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Instead this can be solved by inventing more ancestral connections to Aegon IV in Catelyn's family tree and making some argument about how both parents need to have this gene.

In case with red hair, for a child to have red hair, the child has to inherite the red-hair-genes from both of his/her parents.

I'm saying that could be that skinchanging works the same. 

So yes, unless both parents have it, the child won't be a /red-head/ a /skinchanger/.

I'm not the one who invented how genetic works.

Also I figured out that Catelyn and Littlefinger are both descendants of Aegon IV not because of some neccessity to explain why Cat's children are skinchangers, but because I noticed that GRRM wrote Petyr as a parallel to the Biblical False Prophet, the Beast out of the Earth who had dragon's voice and lamb's horns. Littlefinger is a dragon's/Aegon's descendant, and also amongst his ancestors there was Falena Stokeworth, and on her House's family sigil there's a lamb with a chalise, which is a Biblical symbol that represents Jesus. The False Prophet tricked people into worshiping the False Messiah, Antichrist. In this case Dany will play a role of the real Messiah, and fAegon is the Antichrist, the mummer's dragon.

6 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Bloodraven's sister who was supposedly Melantha Blackwood's mother (despite there being no evidence for this), and that this ability comes from Larra Rogare, whose mother was supposedly Johanna Swann (despite there also being no evidence for this, nor for Johanna Swann being a warg, and at most a hint for Larra )

Most likely, Larra Rogare's mother indeed was Johanna Swann.

Because it is very very VERY suspicious that GRRM didn't wrote not in the World Book not in the Fire&Blood who was Larra's mother, or at least what was her name. In F&B he gave to readers names of Larra's siblings, all of them. Was there 16 or 19 of them? What were their names, what were their occupations, what happened to them after the fall of House Rogare. Lots of information about House Rogare. But no name for Larra's mother. Add to this oddity the fact that in the World book it was said about Johanna Swann that eventually she became ruler of Lys in all but name, and in F&B it was said about Rogares that they were princes of Lys in all but name, it was phrased EXACTLY like that in both books. Johanna was a famous courtesan, who was ruler of Lys in all but name, and Lysandro Rogare owned a pleasure house the Perfumed Garden, and he was called prince of Lys in all but name. She's a courtesan, courtesans work in pleasure houses. Pleasure house is actually a nicer name for a brother, and a courtesan is a nicer name for a whore. So Johanna was the most famous whore of Lys and Lysandro was the most famous pimp of Lys, and both of them were de-facto rulers of Lys. You have to be blind not to notice a connection there.

Not to mention that Johanna was just the right age to be Larra's mother.

And let's not ignore the facts about what happened with Rogares as soon as Johanna got her daughter safely settled with the Prince from 7K, and sent her away from Lys.

In Fire&Blood GRRM hinted to readers "But if indeed the Faceless Men had done these deeds, at whose bidding had they acted?" and "So skillfully had the brothers been removed, however, that not even the fact of murder could be proved." GRRM practically said to readers that whoever was behind the fall of House Rogare, was someone smart, cunning, skillful, and this someone had a grudge against Rogares. Lysandro died when he was going home after visiting the Perfumed Garden. It's so OBVIOUS that a woman is behind his death.

Also this (F&B) - "Pereno was garroted in a pillow house as a slave girl pleasured him with her mouth. ... Matteno Orthys, a fervent worshipper of the goddess Pantera, was mauled and partly devoured by his prized shadowcat when its cage was unaccountably left open one night."

Whoever killed Pereno didn't killed the whore that was with him. Why? And why didn't she said who was it? That's because the whore and the assassin were partners in crime. It's likely that the assassin was Johanna herself, who also used to be a whore, and knew this woman. If Pereno was one of Johanna's  ex-clients, and he abused her, then for her it was personal, and she wanted to kill him herself. Why to use garotte, and not, you know, some real weapon, like a sword or a knife? That's because females don't like blood (women even rarely commit suicide by shooting themselves). They prefer to kill with poison, or some less violent less bloody non-weaponal means. Using garotte, even a woman can kill a man, if he is caught distracted, for example while a whore is going down on him, and if that whore will keep the guy down, and won't let him resist much, while he will be strangulated from behind by his attacker.

Concerning the shadow-cat. Isn't it weird that it killed only Matteno, and no one else in his household? Didn't even attacked anyone else. And it came out of its cage exactly when Matteno was alone, without his guards or slaves. If someone left the cage open, then why the cat didn't came out then, and didn't attacked whoever freed it? Maybe because that person was a cat-skinchanger, and she directed the cat to come out only at the right moment, and to kill only one specific person?

If Pereno's murderer would have killed the whore too, and if the shadow-cat killed or wounded anyone else besides Matteno, then GRRM would have wrote it in the book. Like he EXTENSIVELY wrote it here: "Torreo Haen was poisoned with his wife, his mistress, his daughters (one being the maid whose wisp of a gown had caused such scandal at the Maiden’s Day Ball), siblings, and supporters at the feast he held to celebrate his elevation to first magister."

Sometimes he gives to readers excessive information, for them to notice other cases where certain pieces of information are missing, where they were intentionally witheld by GRRM because they are too revealing.

For example, in the White Book in Jaime's entry there's information that his parents are Tywin Lannister and Johanna Lannister, but in Barristan's entry there's no information about who was Barri's mother. With addition to this missing element of the other information in relation to Barristan, it becomes fairly obvious that Barri's mother was a Blackfyre, most likely, one of Aenys Blackfyre's daughters.

 

The same thing with Mariah Stark being Melissa Blackwood's mother, and Mya Rivers being Melantha Blackwood's mother. There are clues in the books, though readers don't notice them. For example, from one of Bran's chapters it is know that Cregan Stark fought against Aemon the Dragonknight. Why did they fought and when did this happened? If you use your brain, then you can figure it out.

Cregan was born in 108 and Aemon in 136. There's 28 years of age difference between them. At the time when they fought, Aemon already was nicknamed "Dragonknight". He got that nickname because the crest on his helm was a three-headed dragon of House Targaryen wrought in white gold. That helm was made for him not before he became a Kingsguard, it's not an everyday attire for someone who is not a knight/fighter, and he joined KG when he was 17 years old. So the fight/duel happened when Cregan was minimum 45 years old, when Aemon was 17+.

And Aemon said about Cregan - AGOT, Bran VII - "the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman". This claim from Aemon would have sounded silly, if the fight happened sometime in the beginning of his "knighting career". Thus, at the time of the fight Aemon was already a renowned warrior, who in his life faced many strong opponents, had fought in a Dornish war, etc.

Also - look at the family tree of Starks, after the Dance of the Dragons for many years afterwards, Cregan was tied to Winterfell, making babies first with Alysanne Blackwood (with whom they had 4 daughters) and then with Lynara Stark (with whom he had 5 children).

The fight didn't happened during Daeron I's reign. At that time Aemon was too busy dealing with Dorne. He was wounded there, and then also held there as a hostage, etc. Then Baelor became the King. And I doubt that Baelor would have allowed his Lord Commander (Aemon) to roughhouse with anyone just to see which one of them is a more skilled fighter. So the duel didn't happened until Aegon became King, which happened in 172 (same year Melissa Blackwood became his mistress). In my opinion the fight happened in 175, when Aemon was 38/39 years old, Cregan was 66/turning 67 and Melissa was Aegon's 6'th mistress (GRRM is often using Biblical elements in his books, so here we have 666).

There's no reason and no time for the duel between Cregan and Aemon to happen prior Aegon's reign. Something like that wouldn't have been allowed to happen during Baelor's reign. So what could be the reason for OLD Cregan to fight/duel Aemon? Who was Aemon at that time? -> He was King Aegon's Lord Commander, and what is more important is that he was his sworn sword and his shield. Whenever someone had a personal dispute with Aegon, and wanted for it to be decided by the will of Gods, instead of Aegon for him in a trial by combat would have fought his sword sword and shield, Aemon the Dragonknight. So Cregan wanted Aegon to end his relationship with Melissa, who was Cregan's granddaughter, and he challenged Aegon, and fought in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. Cregan won, Aemon dubbed him the strongest opponent that he ever faced, and Aegon separated with Melissa.

Also Cregan got married with Alysanne Blackwood in 132, they had 4 daughters, and Melissa Blackwood was born in 151-161. For example, Alysanne got pregnant in 133, gave birth to their first child in 134; got pregnant again in 135, gave birth in 136; got pregnant again in 137, gave birth in 138; got pregnant for the 4th time in 139, gave birth in 140. Their last child, in case if Mariah was the youngest, was born in 140 (or earlier). Aegon in his later years preferred very young women. For example, his 8th mistress was 14. It's likely that in 172, when they met, Melissa was 14-18 years old, which places her birth in 154-158. Based on Mariah's and Melissa's possible years of birth, they can be mother and daughter. Mariah, at the time of Melissa's birth, was 14-18, or in case if Melissa was born in 151-161, then Mariah was at that time 11-21.

Though Mariah could have been born earlier than in 140. For example if Alysanne got pregnant in 132, gave birth to her first child in 133; got pregnant again in 133, gave birth in 134; third pregnancy in 134, birth in 135; and the last pregnancy in 135, gave birth in 136, not in 140. If Mariah was the last child, then at the time of Melissa's birth (151-161) she could have been 15-25 years old. If Mariah was the firstborn child, then she could have been (in 151-161) 18-28 at the time of Melissa's birth.

Mya Rivers was born in 172-175. If Melantha Blackwood was Mya's daughter, and Mya was Cregan Stark's great granddaughter, then Melantha would have been approximately same age as Cregan's other great grandchildren. And she was, because her husband, Willam Stark, was one of Cregan's great grandchildren.  

So, it's a possibility. And there IS basis for this idea/hypothesis in the books.

6 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

But even this reasoning still leaves several examples of prominent Targaryens who are not noted to be wargs despite fulfilling this criteria.

1. Daeron II and his sister Daenerys were the children of Aegon IV and his sister-wife, so shouldn't they have gotten the gene from both sides?

2. What about Aerys and Rhaella, and their children?

3. They all had descent from Aegon IV on both sides as well.

4. Also, why was Bloodraven a warg?

5. Did Melissa Blackwood have this gene too?

1. No, because they got the SAME gene from both parents, and they needed two DIFFERENT genes.

It's like, if you will be adding more red paint into the same red paint, then you won't get a different color out of it, and the paint won't become redder even though there will be twice more of it. Though, if into the red paint you will add equal amount of yellow paint, then you will have orange colored paint as a result of it.

Or like this - you won't make a hot-dog out of two sausages. Instead you need one sausage and one bun. Two different ingredients, not two of the same ingredient.

Get it?

2. No, Aerys and Rhaella also got the same gene, like 1A and 1A, while what was needed is 1A and 1B, for example, or 1A and 2A.

3. Exactly, they both got from their parents only one of necessary genes, both of their parents were carrier of the same gene, and what was necessary is for that gene to mix with some other new genes and mutate/change from 1A to 2A or from 1A to 1B. 1A + 1A won't result in a change of who/what the carrier is, 1A + 1A = 1A, not something else. 1A is not a skinchanger, or a red-head, just another carrier of one gene, not two.

Rhaegar and Lyanna both were Aegon's descendants, but even though they both were carriers of one skinchanging gene each, their genes were not identical. Because in the process of going from Aegon thru his descendants, that skinchanging gene mixed with other genes and mutated, as result were created other new variations of that skinchanging gene.

I'm not a specialist in genetics, and English isn't my native language. If you want more information about this gene-inheritance and mutation, then use Google.

4. I wrote in one of my previous posts here, that could be that Bloodraven was not a skinchanger since birth, could be that he became a skinchanger only after he got physically connected to the Weirwood Network, in the Children's cave. Just think about it, if he was a skinchanger before he went beyond The Wall, then his presence at Whitewalls wasn't neccessary, and him personally going there doesn't make any sense. If he could have skinchanged into a raven or sereval ravens and sent them as his ears and eyes into Whitewalls, then what was the point of using shadow-magic and going there under guise of Maynard Plumm? Why to go there himself? Why to risk his life, if instead he could have used birds to spy for him?

5. Why would Melissa have it? She was Aegon's mistress, not his daughter, not Larra's or Johanna's descendant. Melissa was Cregan's granddaughter, and Mariah Stark's daughter, she didn't had those genes. Aegon's descendants had them, some of them were recessive carriers, while those that got two of them from both parents, two different one from each parent, those were born as skinchangers.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, wrong. My position is that they have skinchanging abilities because they inherited skinchanging genes from two lines of DNA, one from their mother and one from their father. And it works same as inheriting red hair genes.

I don't think that article about red hair says what you think it does, and in any case there's no way George is mapping out who's a carrier of warging genes with Punnett squares and making sure everything lines up for everybody to get two versions of the gene. Genetics in ASOIAF work however the hell he wants them to work, and I think it's foolish to look for some sort of hard rules to it that make sense with real world genetics. And you invent Sa, Sb, Sc out of nowhere and then claim that this explains why some characters aren't wargs despite having two parents that have the gene? 

23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also I figured out that Catelyn and Littlefinger are both descendants of Aegon IV not because of some neccessity to explain why Cat's children are skinchangers, but because I noticed that GRRM wrote Petyr as a parallel to the Biblical False Prophet, the Beast out of the Earth who had dragon's voice and lamb's horns.

There's no actual evidence of this at all. The Bastard of Harrenhal is not even mentioned in the main series (nor are a bunch of these characters), and there's no indication that he's the son of Aegon IV, or the first Lord Whent, or an ancestor of Littlefinger. 

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Most likely, Larra Rogare's mother indeed was Johanna Swann.

I'm going to turn your logic around on you here. If she was Larra's mother, why is it not mentioned? That it isn't stated that her mother was a well-known member of Westerosi nobility seems to indicate that she probably wasn't. Sharako Lohar is said to have died in 131 at the hands of a rival for the affections of Johanna, if Johanna was the wife of Lysandro why is that not mentioned? Even more so if she was the future mother-in-law/grandmother to kings. And the best part is your evidence that she's a warg is that females of a completely different house are rumored to skinchange, with the only thing the houses have in common being that they're named after birds (though House Swann has two n's, while the name of the animal has just one). The far more likely explanation is that George just didn't care to name her mother, which wouldn't be a first. It took him years to name Ned's mother, and he was dismissive when fans asked about her before that. We still don't know the name of the mother of Doran, Elia, and Oberyn, and she was a ruling Princess of Dorne.

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

4. I wrote in one of my previous posts here, that could be that Bloodraven was not a skinchanger since birth, could be that he became a skinchanger only after he got physically connected to the Weirwood Network

I must confess I find it a bit funny that the only confirmed skinchanger among all these characters wasn't actually a skinchanger by birth according to you, but all these other characters were skinchangers or carriers based on little to no evidence.

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There are clues in the books, though readers don't notice them.

Regardless of what you hope is true, what do you think's more likely - that you're literally the only person who has ever noticed all these obscure clues that indicate the far-reaching, sweeping conclusions you jump to based on them, or that you're reading into things too much?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I think it's possible that at some point in Stark history, the skinchanging/warging ability was somehow suppressed. I think the maesters were the game changer in that. Just look at Maester Luwin and the way he reacted to Bran's awakening because he doesn't understand it or believes in it. 

Where would Bran be if he had remained in Maester Luwin's care? If there was no Osha or Jojen in Bran's immediate circle, what would have happened to him? Would he have kept his abilities to himself or tried to suppress them? Maester Luwin tried to help Bran the only way he knew, by being telling him that the dreams weren't real, IIRC, and giving him potions to stop him from dreaming (which didn't work).

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

6 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I think it's possible that at some point in Stark history, the skinchanging/warging ability was somehow suppressed. I think the maesters were the game changer in that. Just look at Maester Luwin and the way he reacted to Bran's awakening because he doesn't understand it or believes in it. 

Where would Bran be if he had remained in Maester Luwin's care? If there was no Osha or Jojen in Bran's immediate circle, what would have happened to him? Would he have kept his abilities to himself or tried to suppress them? Maester Luwin tried to help Bran the only way he knew, by being telling him that the dreams weren't real, IIRC, and giving him potions to stop him from dreaming (which didn't work).

That is very interesting. I tend to believe that the maesters are involved in many events in Westerosi history the death of the dragons, the wars, the abandoning of the old ways, the disappearing of the weirwoods etc and for example Luwin seems to be involved in things like Jon’s recruitment to the Wall.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

That is very interesting. I tend to believe that the maesters are involved in many events in Westerosi history the death of the dragons, the wars, the abandoning of the old ways, the disappearing of the weirwoods etc and for example Luwin seems to be involved in things like Jon’s recruitment to the Wall.

I don't think that the maesters have done nearly as much as that, but I really think that they corrupted the knowledge of magic that exited at Winterfell. By contrast, Greywater Watch who don't have maesters still remember things they don't at Winterfell. Howland Reed's reaction to Jojen's greendreams of the winged wolf vs Maester Luwin's reaction to Bran could not more different. I suspect that if Catelyn and Ned were the ones dealing with Bran's abilities, they would have aligned closer to Maester Luwin than Howland Reed.

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'm not sure how Serenei of Lys is relevant

Serenei of Lys and Larra Rogare is the same person.

There are clues about this in the World book (their portraits, etc.) and also what GRRM said in the Citadel, So Spake Martin, about Shiera Seastar and her mother.

Based on what he wrote in F&B, seems that Larra Rogare was a cat-skinchanger. Larra/Serenei is Shiera's mother. In F&B GRRM used a shadow-cat to kill one of Lyseni characters. That guy was a worshiper of a Goddess Panthera, so why didn't he kept in his house a panther or a leopard, or something more "panterish" than a shadow-cat? Also Mance Rayder was attacked near a Shadow Tower by a shadow-cat, not by a wolf or a bear or a snow-cat, specifically by a shadow-cat, same as the guy in F&B, and it happened near a Shadow Tower. That's because that shadow-cat was possessed by a shadowbinder Quaithe, whose real name is Shiera Seastar, and she is a cat-skinchanger, same as her mother Larra Rogare/Serenei of Lys. Then Shiera used shadow-glamour and impersonated a wildling healer that treated Mance from his wounds, caused by Shiera herself, when she was in that shadow-cat that attacked Mance. She lured him into a trap. While he was recuperating from his wounds, she used a lot of magic on him, and binded him with that red silk. She sewed that silk into his cloak, and his will was affected by Shiera's magic, even after he left. That silk caused him to desert from Night's Watch, and to do everything else what he did afterwards.

Larra was not only a cat-skinchanger, same as her daughter, she was also a shadowbinder, same as Shiera/Quaithe. Sandoq the Shadow was Larra's servant. When Viserys returned to 7K, him and Aegon weren't close. Aegon's best friend was Gaemon Palehair, they were close. Larra kept herself distant/separately from the rest of Targaryen court. Aegon wasn't close with his brother Viserys, he wasn't close with his brother's wife Larra, thus there's no reason for him to closely know Sandoq and to defend him that Sandoq is not a beast, and to say that when he is given an order he obeys it. To whose orders is he obeying? To his master's orders. And who is his master? -> It's Larra. So it wasn't Aegon, who defended Sandoq and said that Sandoq is not a beast, it was Larra in shadow-glamour. Same as Melisandre used shadow-glamour on Mance Rayder to make him look like Rattleshirt, same as Shiera used shadow-glamour on Bloodraven to make him look like Maynard Plumm, Larra Rogare used shadow-glamour on herself to make her look like King Aegon. GRRM did gave clues about this in F&B, here: 

"Her ladies, her servants, and her guards would join Lady Larra at certain times in performing obeisances to these queer, ancient deities. Cats were seen coming and going from her chambers so often that men began to say they were her spies, purring at her in soft voices of all the doings of the Red Keep. 1. It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat, to prowl the gutters and rooftops of the city. Darker rumors soon arose. 2. The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love, and whispers went about that her ladyship oft availed herself of this ability at twilight orgies, so she might visit the brothels on the Street of Silk as a man. And every time a child went missing, the ignorant would look at one another and talk of 3. Saagael’s insatiable thirst for blood."

1. Larra was a cat-skinchanger. She didn't physically turn into a cat, she just skinchanged.

2. She didn't physically became a man, she just shadow-glamoured herself to look like a different person. If thru shadow-glamour Mance can look like Rattleshirt, and Bloodraven can look like Maynard, then why can't Larra look like a man? She can. Shadow-glamour can make anyone to look like anyone, even to make a woman to look like a man. And sexual act has noting to do with it. Melisandre didn't had sex with Mance to change the way people see him, not as himself but as an illusion of Rattleshirt's looks.

3. Shiera was a bloodmage, same as her mother Larra/Serenei, about whom GRRM said

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Shiera_Seastar

"some said that she was much older than the king, and preserved her beauty by the practice of dark arts."

Shiera bathed in blood to stay young, The Sworn Sword novel: "Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty."

 

So, yes, Serenei of Lys (Larra) is relevant, because Shiera, Jon and Stark-children got their skinchanging abilities from her.

20 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Wolves are not the only animal besides cats that can be warged

No, warging is specifically an ability to skinchange into wolves or direwolves. Wolf/direwolf-skinchangers are called wargs. Other skinchangers are not wargs.

20 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Whatever the explanation for the warging abilities of the Stark kids, secret distant ancestry from a Targaryen king on both sides that relies on a half dozen parentage assumptions that have no basis in the text does not strike me as a plausible, let alone likely, scenario.

Let's wait and we will see it explained/revealed in later books.

When Quaithe will reveal that she is Shiera, and that she has met Mance Rayder before, and that it was she who skinchanged into a shadow-cat that attacked Mance, probably she will also mention that her mother Serenei/Larra, and her grandmother Johanna Swann, also had this ability, and that it runs in the family, that's why Stark-kids and Jon are also skinchangers, like her. Bloodraven may mention to Bran that his grand-niece, Melantha Blackwood, is one of Bran's ancestors, and that Bran and his siblings got his ability thru her, and thru Catelyn from Bloodraven's half-brother, the Bastard of Harrenhal.

15 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

And you invent Sa, Sb, Sc out of nowhere and then claim that this explains why some characters aren't wargs despite having two parents that have the gene? 

Red color + Red color doesn't produce Orange color, so yes, two Red parents won't produce an Orange child. One of the parents has to add a Yellow color into the mix. So let's say that Rhaegar, Catelyn and Lysa are Red, while Lyanna, Ned, Elia and Petyr are Yellow, as result of their mixing we have Orange Jon, Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon, and Robert "Arryn". Carriers of Orange genes are skinchangers, while carriers of Red genes, and carries of Yellow genes, are not skinchangers, but pass their genes to their children. If further down in line their Red/or Yellow descendants will mix their genes with other Yellow/or Red descndants, then their children will be Orange/skinchangers.

Mind that I'm not claiming that only descendants of Johanna Swann and Larra Rogare/Serenei can be skinchangers. There are many other people at 7K who are also carriers of Red, Yellow, and Orange genes. Other people from House Swann, people from House Crane, House Mormont, etc., and their descendants. Could be that House Blackwood are also carriers of Red or Yellow or even Orange genes. Could be that there were skinchangers amongst Blackwoods. Could be that Melissa Blackwood was a Red or a Yellow, and with addition of whatever color-gene Aegon passed to his children, Bloodraven could have been born an Orange/skinchanger.

15 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

The Bastard of Harrenhal is not even mentioned in the main series (nor are a bunch of these characters), and there's no indication that he's the son of Aegon IV, or the first Lord Whent, or an ancestor of Littlefinger. 

There is.

(Not first Lord Whent, rather the father of that guy who became FLW. One of the Bastard's sons was the sellsword from Braavos, Littlefinger's great grandfather, born by an Otherys-girl, and the other of his children, born by a Westerosi-wife, became Lord Whent, or in case if it was a daughter, then she married and it was the Bastard's son-in-law who became FLW. I often confuse number of generations amongst Petyr's ancestors and Shella Whent's ancestors. It goes like this:

Catelyn | Petyr

Minisa Whent, Shella, Walter, Oswell (siblings and cousins) | Petyr's father + Alayne

Minisa's father, Shella's father/or mother, Walter and Oswell's parent | Petyr's grandfather

Minisa's and Shella's grandfather/First Lord Whent | Petyr's great grandfather/the Sellsword from Braavos

the Bastard of Harrenhal.

So the Sellsword and FLW were either half-brothers, or FLW was husband of the Sellsword's half-sister.

I'm wandering why no one made connection between Littlefinger owning brothels in King's Landing and his ancestor the Sellsword from Braavos, the city that is famous because of their courtesans, the Black Pearls of Braavos. For Littlefinger, brotheling is a sort of a family business.)

15 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

If she was Larra's mother, why is it not mentioned? That it isn't stated that her mother was a well-known member of Westerosi nobility seems to indicate that she probably wasn't.

It was also well known in 7K that Johanna Swann, after being kidnapped by pirates, was sold into slavery and became a courtesan. Not a smart move on Lysandro's part to mention to Viserys that his daughter Larra was born by a whore. That would have broken any plans of a possible marriage.

15 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Sharako Lohar is said to have died in 131 at the hands of a rival for the affections of Johanna, if Johanna was the wife of Lysandro why is that not mentioned?

Either my theory is wrong. Or.

Because GRRM didn't wanted to reveal that information too soon. Also, even though Larra was one of Lysandro's legitimate children, it doesn't mean that her parents were married. He was ruler of Lys in all but name, so if one of owned by him courtesans gave birth to his child, and he later decided for whatever reasons to legitimize that child, then he did so. Either Larra was legitimized as a reward to Johanna for years of her services at the Perfumed Garden. Or maybe Lysandro legitimized Larra when Viserys got interested in her, an expressed desire to marry with her. He wouldn't have married a bastard, thus Lysandro used his influence in Lys, and legitimized his bastard-daughter. It's not like Viserys asked Larra, whenever they met for the first time, whether she's legitimate or a bastard.

Also could be that Lysandro and Johanna were married, but she wasn't his only wife. Could be that he had several wives. In Essos polygamous marriages are still practiced. Dothraki can have several wife. Cleon, the King of Astapor, had three wives and offered Dany to become his fourth. Aenar Targaryen, father of Daenys the Dreamer, had several wives (F&B) - "Twelve years before the Doom of Valyria (114 BC), Aenar Targaryen sold his holdings in the Freehold and the Lands of the Long Summer, and moved with all his wives, wealth, slaves, dragons, siblings, kin, and children to Dragonstone, a bleak island citadel beneath a smoking mountain in the narrow sea." Out of all that remained from Valyrian Freehold, Lys is the most like Valyria, so it's likely that in Lys to have several wives is as normal as it was in Valyria.

Could be that Johanna was ONE of Lysandro's wives, and it wasn't mentioned by GRRM because thru connection between Johanna and other members of House Swann the readers would have been able to trace connection from Johanna-Larra-Aegon-Daemon Blackfyre to Varys(Blackfyre)-Balon Swann(Varys' agent, working for Blackfyre, because Blackfyres are descendants/relatives of Johanna Swann) and Jeyne Swann-Barristan-fAegon who is a Blackfyre and Jeyne/Lemore's son, fathered by Barristan, who is a Blackfyre on his mother's side, and who squired for Lord Swann.

GRRM didn't revealed that fAegon and Blackfyres are descendants of Johanna Swann, for the same reason why he haven't revealed that Jon's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark - because it's a mystery and it will be revealed in its own time.

16 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

And the best part is your evidence that she's a warg is that females of a completely different house are rumored to skinchange, with the only thing the houses have in common being that they're named after birds (though House Swann has two n's, while the name of the animal has just one).

That's on purpose, for readers like you, a diversion/distraction.

The sigil of House Swann is an indication that they are either shadowbinders or skinchangers. A white swan on their sigil is a Swann, while the black swan is either a "shadow" or a skinchanged animal possessed by that Swann. It's a symbolic sigil.

And the best part of my evidence is this (F&B) - "It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat". There is magic on Planetos, but it's not the kind of magic that allows people to literally transform into animals. So what GRRM revealed about Larra in F&B actually means that she was a skinchanger, and because it's unlikely that she got that ability from her Lyseni father, then it's likely that she got it from her mother, and who was her mother? -> for some reason GRRM didn't revealed it, even though in F&B he revealed a lot of information about House Rorage, including names of all of Lysandro's children, but no name for Larra's mother. Why? Because her name is a too important clue in one of major mysteries of ASOIAF, and readers like you, those that doesn't have strong deduction abilities like me, will have to wait for revelation of this mystery in the very end of the series.

16 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Regardless of what you hope is true, what do you think's more likely - that you're literally the only person who has ever noticed all these obscure clues that indicate the far-reaching, sweeping conclusions you jump to based on them, or that you're reading into things too much?

My IQ is in top 0,01% of the world's population.

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

a panther or a leopard, or something more "panterish" than a shadow-cat?

I always thought that a shadow-cat was a panther.

[Megorova]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I always thought that a shadow-cat was a panther.

Do panthers live in a snowy climates? Don't they live in tropics and sub-tropics?

 

That shadow-cat thing seems more like snow leopard (Panthera uncia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_leopard

but it's not a panther, like this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_panther

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar

 

They are from the same family, this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther

but out of all those that I posted above, snow leopard is the smallest of them all, and it's the only one out of them that lives in cold climates (and maybe cougar too).

Cats like leopards and black panthers don't live where it's cold. And for an animal like a shadow-cat, which seems to be an "inhabitator" of colder climates, like The North, it seems kind of weird that that guy from Lys kept a shadow-cat, and not a black panther or a jaguar, which are native for Essos' climate.

It's the same as if that guy kept a white polar bear instead of a brown bear or a panda or koala. Suspicious.

I mean, there are actual panthers on Planetos,

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Panther

so why did that guy, who was a worshiper of a Panthera Goddess,

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pantera

didn't kept a panther, and instead kept a shadow-cat? Because this could be a clue from GRRM -> a "misplaced" cat, in a "wrong" climate.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Megorova said:

Red color + Red color doesn't produce Orange color, so yes, two Red parents won't produce an Orange child.

I'm not arguing about what colors make, I'm saying that you're just making this stuff up out of nowhere and baselessly claiming it explains your theory and it doesn't. 

On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Megorova said:

GRRM didn't revealed that fAegon and Blackfyres are descendants of Johanna Swann, for the same reason why he haven't revealed that Jon's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark - because it's a mystery and it will be revealed in its own time.

This is a total false equivalence. George has described Jon's parentage as the central mystery of his story. Revealing that Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother would, in and of itself, mean nothing to basically anybody except you. It's bad enough that 99% of your theories rely on stuff that isn't mentioned in the main series, but you're seriously contending that this is so explosive that George can't even reveal it in a history book?

On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Megorova said:

There is.

Is the text below this supposed to be the evidence that the Bastard of Harrenhal is an ancestor of Catelyn and Littlefinger? Because I don't see any evidence of that anywhere in there.

You've made massive leaps based on nothing but a rumor that Larra could transform into a cat and House Swann having white and black swans in its sigil. To be perfectly honest, George would be a terrible writer if this was how he established clues for major twists, because it's absurd to expect any reader to form your conclusions based on the text.

On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Megorova said:

There is magic on Planetos, but it's not the kind of magic that allows people to literally transform into animals.

We don't necessarily know that. There's talk about shapechangers in Mossovy and Asshai. Jojen does use that term as well to refer to Bran, but we don't know this is the exact same magic. We don't even know that the rumors about Larra were factual, or smears about an exotic foreign spouse of a prince, and if did have a basis, it's entirely plausible that her magic was not the same as that of the skinchangers we've seen so far. Based on what George has written, skinchanging seems heavily tied to the magic of the COTF and First Men. It's stated that the greenseers of the COTF inspired the first legends about skinchangers. Every confirmed skinchanger in the story is of First Men ancestry. In addition to the Starks (and Jon), we have several Wildings, Bloodraven (whose mother was a Blackwood, a First Men house), as well as legendary stories about First Men like the Warg King, Rose of the Red Lake, and Gaven Greywolf. It makes much more sense to me that the abilities of the Stark children are tied to their known First Men descent, than some tinfoil about double-sided descent from the Lyseni mother of a Targaryen king, who supposedly had a secret Stormlander mother herself. That there aren't a bunch of known Stark skinchangers over the years isn't that big a deal to me, the resurgence of magic is a major theme in the story, and the ability is heavily taboo in Westeros, so likely to have been suppressed or hidden over the years if and when it did emerge.

On 2/5/2021 at 9:05 AM, Megorova said:

My IQ is in top 0,01% of the world's population.

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic here or not

[CamiloRP]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:05 PM, Megorova said:

My IQ is in top 0,01% of the world's population.

See? You say it's just you having fun with wild, unsubstantiated guesses, and then say stuff like this. GRRM would be an awful writer if only one in ten thousand (at the very least, as I've seen no one else replicate your beliefs, so it would turn it into one in tens or hundreds of millions) could understand his writing.

[Megorova]

12 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

George has described Jon's parentage as the central mystery of his story. Revealing that Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother would, in and of itself, mean nothing to basically anybody except you. It's bad enough that 99% of your theories rely on stuff that isn't mentioned in the main series, but you're seriously contending that this is so explosive that George can't even reveal it in a history book?

If my assumption is correct, that Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother, then it also means that Johanna was a matriarch/ancestor of Targaryens and Blackfyres, and that all this people are partially Swanns by blood:

Dany, Jon, fAegon;

Stannis, Shireen, Edrick Storm, Gendry and Robert's other bastards;

Melantha Blackwood's descendants including Ned, Lyanna and Benjen;

Rhaegar; Elia and other Martells (who are Swanns thru Daenerys Targaryen, Johanna's great granddaughter),

Varys (who's a Blackfyre, and whose agent is a Kingsguard Balon Swann), Petyr Baelish, Illyrio's wife Serra (Varys's sister or half-sister);

(possibly Melisandre;)

Barristan Selmy (whose mother was Aenys Blackfyre's daughter);

Brienne Tarth (whose mother is Pretty Meris/Meris Cafferen/Wenda the White Fawn, ex-leader of the Kingswood Brotherhood, which later was led by Symon Toyne, brother of Myles Toyne, captain-general of Golden Company);

Shiera Seastar, Bloodraven;

septa Lemore/Jeyne Swann/fAegon's mother (she and Barristan Selmy conceived fAegon in Kingswood, when a comet was passing above King's Landing, on the same night when Rhaegar and Elia conceived real Aegon. Jeyne Swann's septa was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour, she gave love potion to Barristan and Jeyne seduced him and got pregnant); 

Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon, Robert Arryn;

Hodor, the Hound, the Mountain; those three and Meris/Wenda are Old Nan's great grandchildren. Old Nan's real name is Alysanne Stark, and she was Duncan the Tall's paramour. Duncan's parents were Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen (Aegon IV's daughter and wife of Maron Martell).

All those characters are partially Swanns by blood, which means that A Song of Ice and Fire is actually A Swan Song.

12 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

To be perfectly honest, George would be a terrible writer if this was how he established clues for major twists, because it's absurd to expect any reader to form your conclusions based on the text.

No one was supposed to figure any of it out. What I refer to as clues, are not actually "clues" intentionally left by GRRM to be discovered by readers, more like those elements are "bricks" in the foundation of a secret wall that GRRM build in the house that is ASOIAF's plot. Metaphorically speaking.

11 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

GRRM would be an awful writer if only one in ten thousand (at the very least, as I've seen no one else replicate your beliefs, so it would turn it into one in tens or hundreds of millions) could understand his writing.

You're not supposed to understand it. Not now. Not until he will reveal it later. Then, looking backwards, readers will notice all those subtle "bricks" (read this post from the beginnig, about what bricks do I mean).

[CamiloRP]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

You're not supposed to understand it. Not now. Not until he will reveal it later. Then, looking backwards, readers will notice all those subtle "bricks" (read this post from the beginnig, about what bricks do I mean).

That's not the important part tho, you're either exploring weird unlikely scenarios because it's fun or you're smarter than the 99,9% of humanity and you hold the absolute truth. It can't be both.

[Egged]

After my first read of the books, I thought maybe both Viserys and Daenerys were impostors raised as Targs, and eventually when Oberyn figures it was a ploy he poisoned Darry. When Darry dies, the reason even the servants steal and kick the kids out would have been because suddenly all protections and interest they had were lost because the interested clients found out they had been played.

The thing is Oberyn never really brings this up, and Viserys is still of interest in the following years to Dorne. Also, Viserys would have been a bit too old when the ploy would have been put in place (around eight years old or so?). So Oberyn poisoning Darry after finding the truth doesn't hold up.

Then I thought, Viserys is probably real, but Dany isn't. I felt Viserys really seemed to be set on some sort of mind-control level of abuse at Daenerys. The end of her first chapter, when she gets into the hot bath, read to me as Daenerys refusing to feel the pain so as to be as her brother desired.

"Remember who you are, who you were made to be."

I didn't think about who her mother could be, I thought she was likely no one important. The real one just died before.

But any of those points can be explained by Dany being a Targ cut off from history, with Viserys being her only remaining link. So it works either way. It is definitely not certain, but there are enough interest implications as mentioned before, such as the true heir believing he is a bastard, and the (likely) bastard believing she is the true heir (totally lifted out of The Accursed Kings).

If anyone ever breaks that to Daenerys I'd expect it to be either Bran (at least him mentioning to her the house with the red door and lemon tree would be a good way for him to prove his power to her, sort of). Or, she'll find the home or red doors and lemon trees during her conquest of Westeros, if it implies some place in Westeros.

(The only connection I see so far is Darkstar likes unsweetened lemonwater and he lives close to Starfall and the Red Mountains  )

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

you're smarter than the 99,9% of humanity

I'm curious about this too, whether high IQ actually means anything. We'll see this later, won't we?

For that we won't even require to wait for the series' end, for ADOS's release and for the second volume of Fire&Blood, nor for the next novels in Dunk&Egg series, to see whether I was right or wrong.

If I'm right, then in Dany's early chapters in TWOW it will be revealed that Rhaego is alive (his kidnapping by Khal Pono was the treason for blood); and in Bran's early chapters he will wake up with a weirwood-tree growing from within of his body, from that weirwood seed paste that he ate, and it will be revealed that to Bloodraven the same thing was done by Shiera Seastar, and that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow (because Shiera is).

If Rhaego won't appear in TWOW, and if it won't be refuted there that Bloodraven is not the 3EC, then I'll agree that my theories were wrong and I'm not as smart as I thought, and that I incorrectly interpreted what GRRM wrote, and that I have a wild imagination that invented fake mysteries that GRRM never even intended to happen in his books.

Let's wait, and we'll see, yes?

P.S. If you're wandering how does revelation that Bloodraven is not the Three-Eyed Crow will prove the rest of my claims - if Bloodraven isn't 3EC then it's Shiera. You probably have read on this forum my theory that those two are parallels to wizard Merlin and Morgana le Fay/water fairy Nimue/queen of phantoms Morrigan, whose avatar is the Battle Crow. Shiera is not only the 3EC, she is also the shadowbinder Quaithe (parallel to the queen of phantoms/shadows, Morrigan/Crow). If Shiera is a shadowbinder (which she is) then she also was that wildling healer that treated Mance after he was attacked by a shadow-cat, which also mean that that cat, when it attacked Mance near the Shadow Tower, was possessed by Shiera, which will prove that Shiera is a cat-skinchanger. And it can't be a coincidence that both Larra Rogare, Aegon's mother, and Shiera Seastar, Aegon's daughter, were cat-skinchangers and were not connected to each other. It will prove that Larra Rogare and Shiera's mother, Serenei of Lys, is the same person. And if I'm right about all of that, then I'm also right that Larra's mother was Johanna Swann, and I also right that Stark-children are skinchangers because they are Johanna's descendants. Because it's all connected, it's all part of the same plot-line. If I correctly interpreted even a part of this plot-line, then the rest of my interpretations are also correct. Not in a sense that if I guessed correctly one element, then all other elements are also correct just because, more like all those elements are so tightly connected to each other, that they form together an integral canvas, they don't exist as a separate threads or plot-lines, they are all tightly woven together into a whole cloth. For example, if Rhaego is alive, then it's an evidence that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that Rhaego survived because she was assisting Dany with his birth. Rhaego being alive is also a prove that Shiera is a cat-skinchanger and Johanna Swann's descendant, because if she is shadowbinder Quaithe, then she was Mance's healer and a cat that attacked him. It also proves that Jeyne's septa was Shiera Seastar in shadow-glamour, and that septa Lemore is Jeyne Swann, and that fAegon is her son, and that the father is Barristan Selmy, who is a Blackfyre on his mother's side.

Either of those two elements (1. Rhaego alive, 2. Bloodraven is not the 3EC) being confirmed in TWOW will mean that all the rest of my supposedly tinfoil crackpot theories are actually correct.

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Let's wait, and we'll see, yes?

Yes

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:57 PM, Megorova said:

Do panthers live in a snowy climates? Don't they live in tropics and sub-tropics?

If we’re talking about a black panther, (which I always picture when I hear about a shadow-cat) then they can be found both in jungles and in higher altitude mountains of China, Africa and India.  

[Alyn Oakenfist]

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we’re talking about a black panther, (which I always picture when I hear about a shadow-cat) then they can be found both in jungles and in higher altitude mountains of China, Africa and India.  

Mainly because they're not an actual species, but rather a coloring found in several species