(f)dany

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Well let me put it this way, since I don't want to derail the thread (anymore than I already have).  Most of my theories come from the big universal questions that ASOIAF forces us to ask. 

Is it just me or is Jon being Rhaegar's son, really friggin obvious?

Why does everyone keep whining about having to get lemons in Dorne?

And what was the point of those Quentyn chapters, and will I ever be able to get those wasted minutes of my life back?

Plenty of people have said they didn't catch R + L = J on a first read. There's enough there for readers to catch it if they think about it, but it's subtle enough that many might not get it if it doesn't cross their mind. I think people need to remember that when George set out to write this series, he didn't know it would take 30+ years to finish, become one of the most popular fantasy series of all time (that finished before the books) and the inspiration behind arguably the most popular TV show of all time, and that millions of people would theorize about the books and show on the Internet for decades. The Internet wasn't even available to the public when he conceived of the story. If George had released his originally planned trilogy within a few years of each other to modest acclaim, I don't think many readers would feel the RLJ twist is too obvious. But throw in 25 years of waiting and discussion among a massive fandom plus a reveal on the show and it seems super obvious.

[SFDanny]

On 8/19/2020 at 11:42 AM, The Green Bard said:

Lol, no, he has Bloodraven.  Just as controlling and manipulative, but without the hallmarks of the Bene Gesserit success.  Dany happens after his influence is gone, and who know why it worked with her.  

Yes, he has Bloodraven. But he isn't some dues ex machina device to pull any twist out of our dear author's rear end and make anything possible. What then is Bloodraven's demonstrable link to a "breeding program" that would be able to influence a secret plot that means Dany is the product of his manipulations. Last I recall Brynden Rivers was in the Night's Watch in the early days of Egg's reign, not setting up brothels to trick others into a bullshit breeding program. Please, we are talking about actual evidence, clues, or hints that support this nonsense. It is not there. It is an idea that makes "what ifs" born of drunken nightmares seem positively plausible in comparison.

Herbert's Bene Gesserit is a well develop force within the novels. We read of their breeding program and see it in practice throughout the novels from the very beginning. It isn't an unsupported last minute aspect of his great novel.

[The Green Bard]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Last I recall Brynden Rivers was in the Night's Watch in the early days of Egg's reign,

He potentially manipulated succession to put Egg on that throne.  Egg married a girl from Bloodraven's own family.  Then he continued to correspond with the family.  He may also have been tied into the ww net for TGoHH and her visions that drove further incest within Egg's line.  Manipulations (his manipultions?  who can say) continued up to Rhaegar, which led to war and Dany and Viserys.  

[The Green Bard]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

to a "breeding program" that would be able to influence a secret plot

His link to wanting Egg on the throne is on at the end of The Mystery Knight, where he is impresssed by Egg.  It is certainly not a lot, but anyone who read The Hedge knight knows that Aerion and Daeron were not promising, so I don't doubt he did all he could within his immense power to accomplish making sure that the crown did not pass to either of them. 

[SFDanny]

10 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

His link to wanting Egg on the throne is on at the end of The Mystery Knight, where he is impresssed by Egg.  It is certainly not a lot, but anyone who read The Hedge knight knows that Aerion and Daeron were not promising, so I don't doubt he did all he could within his immense power to accomplish making sure that the crown did not pass to either of them. 

The political in-fighting over the succession after Maekar's death may well be something Bloodraven actively participated in, but that is a far thing from him manipulating a "breeding program." Where is the use of brothels by Bloodraven in this made up scheme supported in the text? So far I see a reference to Egg's own marriage and nothing else. Should we take note the marriages that Egg and his Queen negotiate all fall apart? Is Jenny part of the scheme or an extreme example of an impediment to it? Of course, Bloodraven is in the Night's Watch at the Wall at this point. I have read the material, and it doesn't support your, or @Frey family reunion's wild guess interpretations.

[Frey family reunion]

16 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The political in-fighting over the succession after Maekar's death may well be something Bloodraven actively participated in, but that is a far thing from him manipulating a "breeding program." Where is the use of brothels by Bloodraven in this made up scheme supported in the text? So far I see a reference to Egg's own marriage and nothing else. Should we take note the marriages that Egg and his Queen negotiate all fall apart? Is Jenny part of the scheme or an extreme example of an impediment to it? Of course, Bloodraven is in the Night's Watch at the Wall at this point. I have read the material, and it doesn't support your, or @Frey family reunion's wild guess interpretations.

Just a quick fyi, because I don't have time for a real long response right now.  If there was an intentional manipulation of bloodlines for the purpose of reuniting Targaryen bloodlines, I don't think it would be through Bloodraven.  And I don't think it would have started until after the events of Summerhall.  

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

The political in-fighting over the succession after Maekar's death may well be something Bloodraven actively participated in, but that is a far thing from him manipulating a "breeding program."

Well said. And it’s not just an ordinary breeding programme, but one that is very large-scale and spans more than 10,000 years. So, as you said, even if Bloodraven had a finger in some marriage alliances, that’s a very far cry from what the Bene Gesserit were doing. We are also explicitly told Egg married for love. But if readers want to go w/ “Bloodraven did it [all]”, there are no arguments that can be used. And how boring and silly would that be? Bloodraven manipulated everything and everyone, including time itself, and skinchanged into all known characters to cause ________ (insert pet “theory”). 

[SFDanny]

11 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

His link to wanting Egg on the throne is on at the end of The Mystery Knight, where he is impresssed by Egg.  It is certainly not a lot, but anyone who read The Hedge knight knows that Aerion and Daeron were not promising, so I don't doubt he did all he could within his immense power to accomplish making sure that the crown did not pass to either of them. 

Just for your information, the choice after Maekar’s death is between Aemon, Egg, and little Maegor. Daeron’s simple minded daughter being passed over. Both Daeron and Aerion are dead

[Shierak Qiya]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, CamiloRP said:

I just finished rereading ASOIAF again and I found myself thinking about an essay I read a few years back, titled "(f)dany" (I think) that compiles a lot of evidence about how Dany is Rhaegar's daughter instead of his sister, I wanted to read that essay again but couldn't find it. Anyone knows where it is?

thanks a lot!

You probably also watched this on youtube.  Is it Preston Jacobs who started R+L=D?

[Ser Leftwich]

1 hour ago, Shierak Qiya said:

You probably also watched this on youtube.  Is it Preston Jacobs who started R+L=D?

Absolutely not. It is as old as the books are and has been wrong since the first person thought of it.

[CamiloRP]

21 hours ago, Shierak Qiya said:

You probably also watched this on youtube.  Is it Preston Jacobs who started R+L=D?

nah, it was this https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany it's pretty bonkers but it has some good things in it, thanks tho!

[corbon]

2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

nah, it was this https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany it's pretty bonkers but it has some good things in it, thanks tho!

Its much older than that. The heresy folks (several of which were highly prominent last hearth people) made a concerted effort to produce a series of essays for alternatives to R+L=J, with different people assigned (volunteers) to present different theories. Whether they believed them or not. 
There is some excellent ideas in many of the theories, but generally a poor grasp of basic logic - well, not so much a poor grasp, but a desperate need to be 'creative' in order to argue some pretty awful theories. Plus, creativity and logic don't always go hand in hand well in the one source. On either side.
There is some brilliantly creative work there. But its badly damaged by the need to force arguments in a designed direction.
None of the theories referenced were original, though some of the elements in some of the essays were, at least to me, and I'd been around a long time before they came out.

The above referenced essay came out from the notR+L+J threads shortly after and from the same group of people. Like the others, it was not an original theory, just a coalescing of points and arguments made before, with a specific aim. Some of that might be original too, I don't recall, but the base idea and many of the arguments made in it are not. 
 

 

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

nah, it was this https://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/572/dany it's pretty bonkers but it has some good things in it, thanks tho!

I agree it is pretty bonkers. It has been discussed here before, and I started a thread to show just how bonkers it is. The discussion gets pretty heated, but the points raised in it are important.

[James West]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, CamiloRP said:

I just finished rereading ASOIAF again and I found myself thinking about an essay I read a few years back, titled "(f)dany" (I think) that compiles a lot of evidence about how Dany is Rhaegar's daughter instead of his sister, I wanted to read that essay again but couldn't find it. Anyone knows where it is?

thanks a lot!

Does it matter who fathered Dany?  I mean, she is absolutely a Targaryen.  We know that from the House Of The Undying.  She is the child of three.  It will not be only because of her parents if or when she sits on the iron throne.  She can make a claim even if she was fathered by another by virtue of being the first Targaryen to hatch dragon eggs in a very long time.  That accomplishment puts her on top of the list among the Targaryens and their supporters.  Even if she is not the daughter of Aerys, who the hell can prove that.  Dany looks like a Targaryen.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  That is really all that counts.  Her most important role is not only to reign as the queen.  She is already that and also khaleesi.  She is Azor Ahai and it may be her most important role to play. 

[The Green Bard]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:03 AM, SFDanny said:

Just for your information, the choice after Maekar’s death is between Aemon, Egg, and little Maegor. Daeron’s simple minded daughter being passed over. Both Daeron and Aerion are dead

I know. What I am saying is that he may have had a hand in making sure they died.  Maybe some of the others before Maekar as well. He potentially made sure Aerys I did not procreate, for example.  Either way, I think from that passage I mentioned in The Mystery Knight, that he made Aegon the Unlikely, more likely.  That is the type manipulation I am suggesting.  I view the prophetic manipulation later (TGOHH visions, whatever Rhaegar was learning in his prophecies) to be a continuation of the manpulation one he was plugged in to the ww.net.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

He potentially made sure Rhaegal did not procreate, for example. 

How did Bloodraven made sure of that? Do you mean Maekar’s brother Rhaegel? Because iirc he did have children... 

[The Green Bard]

17 hours ago, James West said:

That accomplishment puts her on top of the list among the Targaryens and their supporters.  Even if she is not the daughter of Aerys, who the hell can prove that.  Dany looks like a Targaryen.  She brought the dragons back from extinction.  That is really all that counts.  Her most important role is not only to reign as the queen.  She is already that and also khaleesi.  She is Azor Ahai and it may be her most important role to play.

Totally agree.  Her merit trumps any concern over parentage.  However, parentage and secrecy around it will cause some to backstab her in favor of Aegon, and Jon Snow later.  THe politics will matter, though merit should be the most important thing.  Might makes right and all.  

If you read through the entire thread over on last hearth, toward the end, you will see how I have suggested that even if Dany was brought up for a time in Dorne, not Braavos, and even if there really were two Willem Darry's, there is a scenario that fits Martin's writing style where she still is Aerys and Rhaella's child.  

[The Green Bard]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rhaegal

Thanks for pointing that out.  I meant Aerys I.  Rhaegal's children got passed over on account of being female.  I'll edit my prior.  

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, The Green Bard said:

Thanks for pointing that out.  I meant Aerys I.  Rhaegal's children got passed over on account of being female.  I'll edit my prior.  

Rhaegal is one of Dany’s dragons, Rhaegel was Maekar’s brother.

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

Neither were Rhaegel's twins passed over for their sex (both of them were named heir to the throne before they died) nor can I see what BR would have to do with Aerys's apparent asexuality.