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1 minute ago, lehutin said:

You find it plausible that there are actually two Willem Darry's? 

  1. The real one Viserys knew, who signed the secret marriage pact with Oberyn Martell
  2. The fake one "Daenerys" knew in the House With The Red Door

And conveniently, the real and fake Willem Darry's are both dead?

I said, not that thinfoilish, not that i buy it 100%, it just made me think something is wrong about Daenerys and her backstory and some of the stuff there made sense.

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1 hour ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Prove it.

Except current generation (Jon, Robb, etc.) in the entire family-tree of House Stark, there was no mentioning of other skinchangers. Here's your prove:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Skinchanger#Known_skinchangers

Also, when Bran and Rickon and Arya and Jon realised that they are wargs, they never ever mentioned anything about any of their Stark-ancestors having similar abilities.

George Martin published The World of Ice and Fire book, and Fire & Blood book, and five books from the main series, and three more books from Dunk&Egg series. And NONE of them mentioned a historical Stark-skinchanger (besides current generation).

That's TEN BOOKS IN TOTAL. If there were skinchangers amongst historical Starks, then GRRM would have mentioned them by now, don't you think? :huh:

If a skinchanging is a family trait specific for Starks, then not to mentioned it by now, would have been the same as never mentioning until Dany that historical Targaryens, people from House Targaryen besides Dany, were also dragonlords, dragonriders, dragonseeds.

Edited by Megorova

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9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's TEN BOOKS IN TOTAL. If there were skinchangers amongst historical Starks, then GRRM would have mentioned them by now, don't you think? :huh:

But your argument wasn't that no historical Starks were wargs, but that the Stark kids being wargs has nothing to do with them being Starks. And like, come on, Jon, Bran and Arya are verified wargs, while Rickon and Robb almost definitely are/were.

Also, keep in mind, they're not even siblings. Jon is their cousin. The only thing all of them share is Stark blood.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Except current generation (Jon, Robb, etc.) in the entire family-tree of House Stark, there was no mentioning of other skinchangers. Here's your prove:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

Also, when Bran and Rickon and Arya and Jon realised that they are wargs, they never ever mentioned anything about any of their Stark-ancestors having similar abilities.

George Martin published The World of Ice and Fire book, and Fire & Blood book, and five books from the main series, and three more books from Dunk&Egg series. And NONE of them mentioned a historical Stark-skinchanger (besides current generation).

That's TEN BOOKS IN TOTAL. If there were skinchangers amongst historical Starks, then GRRM would have mentioned them by now, don't you think? :huh:

We do have 10 plus books and only in the ASOIAF books we have all of the current Stark children generation being wargs that much is true. However which of the books, except from the ASOIAF, as main characters and not as supporting characters? I may have missed the books where the Starks of old, the Kings of Winter, and their families were not only explored but also analysed. What we have learn is that the Warg King’s daughters were married into the Stark family and it’s very possible that given his name Gaven Greywolf was a scion of House Stark.

In simple manners when the Starks are main characters they have display warging powers. 

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also, keep in mind, they're not even siblings. Jon is their cousin. The only thing all of them share is Stark blood.

and Targaryen blood.

Read my post in this thread, one page back. Ned and Lyanna are carriers of Targaryen-genes from their great grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, Aegon IV's granddaughter and Bloodraven's niece. And Catelyn/Lysa/Petyr are descendants of Jeyne Lothston and the Bastard of Harrenhal/founder of House Whent. There's plenty of clues of that in the books. Though you'll have to wait until GRRM will write all of that in plain text in his further books.

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3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

and Targaryen blood.

Read my post in this thread, one page back. Ned and Lyanna are carriers of Targaryen-genes from their great grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, Aegon IV's granddaughter and Bloodraven's niece. And Catelyn/Lysa/Petyr are descendants of Jeyne Lothston and the Bastard of Harrenhal/founder of House Whent. There's plenty of clues of that in the books. Though you'll have to wait until GRRM will write all of that in plain text in his further books.

Prove it. 

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6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

and Targaryen blood.

Read my post in this thread, one page back. Ned and Lyanna are carriers of Targaryen-genes from their great grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, Aegon IV's granddaughter and Bloodraven's niece. And Catelyn/Lysa/Petyr are descendants of Jeyne Lothston and the Bastard of Harrenhal/founder of House Whent. There's plenty of clues of that in the books. Though you'll have to wait until GRRM will write all of that in plain text in his further books.

You're making up family trees and stuff as you go along. There is absolutely nothing canon about this. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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16 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But your argument wasn't that no historical Starks were wargs, but that the Stark kids being wargs has nothing to do with them being Starks. And like, come on, Jon, Bran and Arya are verified wargs, while Rickon and Robb almost definitely are/were.

Also, keep in mind, they're not even siblings. Jon is their cousin. The only thing all of them share is Stark blood.

It seems as if the Starks are having Targaryen blood. Which is something that makes no sense for several reasons. Before Bloodraven, who was a descendant of First Men, there was no warging ability within the Targaryens. Even after Bloodraven the next Targaryen who had warging abilities is Jon. There is no way a house like the Blackwoods would had a bastard as their Lady. There is no indication of Melantha having Stark blood.

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You're making up family trees and stuff as you go along. There is absolutely nothing canon about this. 

It looks like nowadays text is non essential for theory building.

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3 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It looks like nowadays text is non essential for theory building.

Why use text when you can just pull stuff out of the well of thought?

4 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

It seems as if the Starks are having Targaryen blood. Which is something that makes no sense for several reasons. Before Bloodraven, who was a descendant of First Men, there was no warging ability within the Targaryens. Even after Bloodraven the next Targaryen who had warging abilities is Jon. There is no way a house like the Blackwoods would had a bastard as their Lady. There is no indication of Melantha having Stark blood.

Also if Targ magic had anything to do with warging we'd know from Dany.

Also, also, warging is so obviously connected to the first men.

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also if Targ magic had anything to do with warging we'd know from Dany.

Also, also, warging is so obviously connected to the first men.

If anything is the Blackwood blood that gives the warging powers.

3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Also if Targ magic had anything to do with warging we'd know from Dany.

Also, also, warging is so obviously connected to the first men.

My next theory will be Blackfish escaped the Red Wedding by turning into a black trout.

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15 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

My next theory will be Blackfish escaped the Red Wedding by turning into a black trout.

Didn't he escape by being in Riverrun. Wasn't him being at the wedding an abomination only thing?

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Didn't he escape by being in Riverrun. Wasn't him being at the wedding an abomination only thing?

You are right, I meant that he escaped the Siege of Riverrun. My theory still stands, Blackfish turned in a black trout and escaped.

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Well, I'm going to weigh in with some tinfoil because covid lockdowns are making me crazy enough to say some stuff without any need to justify myself at all.   I'm OK with Dany being Rhaegar's third child by Ashera Dayne.  Given that Dany is the second coming of Ashera according to Selmy.  I think it was Ashera that Rhaegar fell in love with at Harrenhall rather than Lyanna.  I think it likely that Rhagar was addressing Ashera in Dany's vision on HoU when he said there must be one more.

As one of Elia's handmaidens and probably good friend, I can see Ashera present at  Aegon's birth.  I doubt Elia would object to Ashera since they share the same cultural mores concerning sexuality and probably Rhaegar's vision of the PWIP .   I think it a possible that Dany was born on Dragonstone within  nine months or so after Aegon's birth. 

That means that Rhaegar's mother died while giving birth along with her infant girl and Dany is a convenient substitute fitting someone's political machinations..  Dany is born of salt and smoke on Dragonstone and of the appropriate bloodline to satisfy the prophecy or at least to play some part in said prophesy.

It seems likely to me that Dany and Viserys were split up and "hidden" in different locations after their flight from Dragonstone with Viserys in Braavos and Dany in Lys where she would be hidden in plain sight.  Her Valyrion looks would not stand out in the population.  Lemon trees would easily grow in this climate and be used in the making of essential oils for perfumes.  Dany not only has visual memories of the lemon tree but olfactory memories of home.

So there it is. My covid tinfoil for the day.

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15 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

But your argument wasn't that no historical Starks were wargs, but that the Stark kids being wargs has nothing to do with them being Starks.

If being a skinchanger/warg was a family trait characteristical for Starks, then GRRM would have mentioned it by now, he would have wrote about other (historical) Starks that this one and that one were wargs, but he didn't.

The excuse that other poster wrote somewhere above, that those other Starks in the World book and F&B book are not main characters, they were just mentioned and thus could be that they were wargs/skinchangers, but it wasn't mentioned in those books, because those books weren't focused on those characters. That's a lame excuse, because there are other ways how GRRM could have revealed that amongst historical Starks there were wargs, if there were wargs amongst them. For example, here (ACOK, Bran VII):

"Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales."

"When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight."

AGOT, Bran VII:

" “Do you recall your history, Bran?” the maester said as they walked. “Tell Osha who they were and what they did, if you can.”

He looked at the passing faces and the tales came back to him. The maester had told him the stories, and Old Nan had made them come alive. “That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter. Theon Stark’s the real thin one with the long hair and the skinny beard. They called him the ‘Hungry Wolf,’ because he was always at war. That’s a Brandon, the tall one with the dreamy face, he was Brandon the Shipwright, because he loved the sea. His tomb is empty. He tried to sail west across the Sunset Sea and was never seen again. His son was Brandon the Burner, because he put the torch to all his father’s ships in grief. There’s Rodrik Stark, who won Bear Island in a wrestling match and gave it to the Mormonts. And that’s Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. He was the last King in the North and the first Lord of Winterfell, after he yielded to Aegon the Conqueror. Oh, there, he’s Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman.” They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. “And there’s my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father’s brother. They’re not supposed to have statues, that’s only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done.”

“The maid’s a fair one,” Osha said.

“Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her,” Bran explained. “Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all.” "

 

 

If any of those Starks or some other Stark were wargs/skinchangers then GRRM could have revealed this information in one of those scenes that took place in the crypts. But he didn't.

Thus, based on the information that IS in the books, there were no Starks that were wargs/skinchangers, until those 6 from the current generation. Based on this fact, it's a logical conclusion that this six kids being wargs has nothing to do with them being Starks. Because amongst other Starks there were no skinchangers. If there were other skinchangers amongst historical Starks, then there were many opportunities for GRRM to at least mention it. Him not mentioning it means that there were no skinchangers amongst historical Starks. Because if there were skinchangers/wargs amongst historical Starks, then not even mentioning it by now, would have been the same as never mentioning in a span of 10 books that he wrote, that Targaryens are dragonlords, or that Targaryens are Valyrians, or that Targaryens ususally have silver-gold or silver hair and unusually colored eyes.

Do you understand what I'm saying? If warging is a family trait of Starks, then not mentioning it would have been the same as never mentioning that Valyrian-looks is a family trait of Targaryens.

It's a logical conclusion that Jon and his fake half-siblings being wargs is unrelated to them being Starks. Because there were no other wargs amongst other Starks. So what is so special about this six kids? Why are they wargs/skinchangers? Note that Jon is not a sibling to the other five. So how come he and those other five have the same abilities, if they have different parents? Jon's are Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the other five's are Ned and Cat.

What is similar between a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and children of Catelyn and Ned? What makes them wargs is not their Stark blood, because if it was a Stark blood, then there would have been other wargs amongst other Starks. If it's not a Stark blood, what makes those six kids wargs, then it's something else, and this something else is also something that all of them have, even though they are children of different parents (Jon and his 5 cousins).

Besides Stark-blood, the other thing that they have in common is a Targaryen blood. Ned's and Lyanna's great grandmother, Melantha Blackwood, was Aegon the Unworthy's granddaughter. And Rhaegar's and Catelyn's great great great great grandfather was Aegon the Unworthy. You know Rhaegar's family, but there are gaps in Cat's and Ned's.

Aegon IV Targaryen + Melissa Blackwood

Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband

Melantha Blackwood + Willam Stark

Edwyle

Rickard

Ned, Lyanna

Jon / Aegon's 4-times-great grandson.

~~~~

Aegon IV + Jeyne Lothston

the Bastard of Harrenhal + wife from Westeros

first Lord Whent / Shella Whent's grandfather

Shella Whent's father, and his siblings

Minisa Whent

Catelyn Tully

Robb, Sansa, Brand, Arya, Rickon / Aegon's 4-times-great grandchildren.

~~~~

Aegon IV

the Bastard of Harrenhal + Otherys-girl (daughter of Belenora, Narha or Balerion)

the Sellsword from Braavos / Littlefinger's great grandfather / half-brother of Shella Whent's grandfather

Littlefinger's grandfather

LF's father

Petyr Baelish + Lysa Tully

Robert "Arryn" / Aegon's 4-times-great grandson.

~~~~

Aegon IV + Queen Naerys

Daeron

Maekar

Aegon V

Jaehaerys

Aerys

Rhaegar

Rhaenys / Aegon's 5-times-great granddaughter on her father's side, and on her mother's side she is Aegon's 4-times-great granddaughter (because people from other Houses usually got married and reproduced slower that Targaryens. In a span of time between Aegon IV's son Daeron in a Targaryen family tree passed more generations than between Daeron's sister Daenerys and her Martell descendants, such as Elia Martell).

Though, what makes some of Aegon's descendants skinchangers, while some of his other descendants are not, is not a number of generations that passed between them and Aegon, but the fact that in those people, who are skinchagers,  got combined two bloodlines, both of which are Aegon's genes. Jon got two lines of those genes, one from Rhaegar and the other from Lyanna. Robb and his siblings got one line from Ned and the other from Catelyn. Rhaenys got one line from Rhaegar and the other one from Elia. Robert Arryn got one line from Lysa Tully and the other one from Petyr Baelish, who is his real father. Littlefinger's personal sigil is a mockingbird. Those birds have a tendency to slip their eggs into other birds' nests, for their children to be raised and fed by those other birds.

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Prove it. 

Read this post (above).

If that is not enough of a proof to you, then you'll have to wait for the book, where it will be explained by GRRM himself.

16 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You're making up family trees and stuff as you go along. There is absolutely nothing canon about this. 

No offense, but I don't give a flying F### about canon or whatever. It is (sort of generally accepted) canon that Jon's parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna. So, prove to me that Jon's parents were Rhaegar and Lyanna. YOU CAN'T! It's impossible to actually PROVE it. Because all those clues and hints that GRRM planted all over his books are not proofs. So why is it a canon that R+L=J? That's just because majority of readers noticed all those clues, and based on them made a corresponding logical conclusion. Besides me, other readers so far haven't noticed all those clues and hints that point out to the fact that the current generation of Starks, and Jon, are carriers of dragonseed and skinchanging genes that they got both from their mothers and their fathers. Just because other readers haven't figured it out, doesn't make my findings less canon than R+L=J. You'll see in later books that I was right. (Read all of this post.)

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Before Bloodraven, who was a descendant of First Men, there was no warging ability within the Targaryens.

Fire&Blood, The Lysene Spring

"Her ladies, her servants, and her guards would join Lady Larra at certain times in performing obeisances to these queer, ancient deities. Cats were seen coming and going from her chambers so often that men began to say they were her spies, purring at her in soft voices of all the doings of the Red Keep. It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat, to prowl the gutters and rooftops of the city."

Larra Rogare was a cat-skinchanger. She was Bloodraven's grandmother.

Larra got that ability from her mother, Johanna Swann.

Johanna also was a cat-skinchanger.

"The gonfaloniere Moreo Dagareon was slain by his own elite guards, and Matteno Orthys, a fervent worshipper of the goddess Pantera, was mauled and partly devoured by his prized shadowcat when its cage was unaccountably left open one night."

Johanna Swann worked as a courtesan in the Perfumed Garden of Lys (that's why her descendant/relative, Jeyne Swann/Septa Lemore/fAegon's mother, is the Perfumed Seneschal), pleasure house owned by Rogares, that's how she met Lysandro Rogare, and later gave birth to their daughter Larra.

Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys is the same person. Just look at their pictures in the World book, it's the same person. They have identical hairlines, and hairlines are as unique as fingerprints.

Shiera Seastar is Larra's daughter and Johanna's granddaughter. All three of them - Johanna, Larra/Serenei, Shiera - were cat-skinchangers.

Johanna possessed a shadow-cat that killed her ex-client, Matteno Orthys. Johanna orchestrated the fall of House Rogare and killed Lysandro, Drazenko, and all of her ex-clients, this people:

"Torreo Haen was poisoned with his wife, his mistress, his daughters (one being the maid whose wisp of a gown had caused such scandal at the Maiden’s Day Ball), siblings, and supporters at the feast he held to celebrate his elevation to first magister. Silvario Pendaerys was stabbed through the eye leaving the Temple of Trade, whilst his brother Pereno was garroted in a pillow house as a slave girl pleasured him with her mouth."

She robbed Rogare bank and with those money paid for services of the Faceless Men, who killed Lysandro and Drazenko:

"Legend claims it was men in the hire of the Iron Bank of Braavos who first began suggesting that the Rogare Bank might be unsound, but regardless of who started it, such talk was soon heard all over Lys. The city’s magisters and merchant princes began to demand the return of their deposits; a few at first, then more and more, until a river of gold was pouring from Lysaro’s vaults…a river that soon enough ran dry. By that time Lysaro himself was gone. Faced with ruin, he fled Lys in the dead of night with three bed slaves, six servants, and a hundred of his Unsullied, abandoning his wife, his daughters, and his palace. Understandably alarmed, the city magisters moved at once to seize the Rogare Bank, only to discover that naught remained but a hollow shell.

The fall of House Rogare was swift and brutal. Lysaro’s brothers and sisters claimed to have played no part in the despoiling of the bank, but many doubted their claims of innocence."

"Even as the fighting in the Vale of Arryn continued, the promise of the Lysene Spring suffered another grievous blow hundreds of leagues to the south, with the near-simultaneous demise of Lysandro the Magnificent in Lys and his brother Drazenko in Sunspear. Though the narrow sea lay between them, the two Rogares died within a day of each other, both under suspicious circumstances. Drazenko perished first, choking to death upon a piece of bacon. Lysandro drowned when his opulent barge sank whilst carrying him from his Perfumed Garden back to his palace. Though a few would insist that their deaths were unfortunate accidents, many more took the manner and timing of their passings as proof of a plot to bring down House Rogare. The Faceless Men of Braavos were widely believed to have been responsible for the killings; no more subtle assassins were known to exist anywhere in the wide world.

But if indeed the Faceless Men had done these deeds, at whose bidding had they acted? The Iron Bank of Braavos was suspected, as was the Archon of Tyrosh, Racallio Ryndoon, and various merchant princes and magisters of Lys known to have chafed under the “velvet tyranny” of Lysandro the Magnificent. Some went so far as to suggest that the First Magister had been removed by his own sons (he had sired six trueborn sons, three daughters, and sixteen bastards). So skillfully had the brothers been removed, however, that not even the fact of murder could be proved."

Larra was not only a cat-skinchanger, she was also a shadowbinder (same as her daughter Shiera/Quaithe from Asshai). When Maegor's Holdfast was besieged for 18 days, and when Viserys, Aegon and Sandoq the Shadow were coming out of the castle to talk with other people, that wasn't King Aegon, it was Larra in shadow-glamour. Same as Mance Rayder looked like Rattleshirt, and Bloodraven looked like Maynard Plumm (in The Mystery Knight novel), Larra used shadow-magic to make her look like Aegon. This is Larra, not Aegon:

"King Aegon was unmoved. “Sandoq is no beast,” he answered from the battlements. “He cannot speak, but he hears and he obeys."

~~~

"When the septon had completed his recitation, Ser Marston Waters said, “Lord Rowan has confessed to all these crimes,” and beckoned to the Lord Confessor, George Graceford, to bring the prisoner forward. Manacled at ankle with heavy chains, his face so bruised and swollen as to be unrecognizable, Lord Thaddeus did not move at first, until Lord Graceford pricked him with the point of his dagger, whereupon he said in a thick voice, “Ser Marston speaks truly, Your Grace. I have confessed to all. Lotho promised me fifty thousand dragons when the deed was done, and another fifty when Viserys took the throne. The poison was given to me by Roggerio.” So halting was this speech, so slurred the words, that some upon the battlements thought his lordship must be drunk, until Mushroom pointed out that all his teeth were missing.

The confession left King Aegon III bereft of speech. All that the boy could do was stand and stare, with such despair upon his face that Mushroom feared His Grace might be about to leap from the battlements onto the spikes below, to rejoin his first queen.

It fell to Prince Viserys to make answer. “And my wife, Lady Larra,” he shouted down, “was she a part of this plot too, my lord?” Lord Rowan gave a heavy nod. “She was,” he said. “And what of me?” asked the prince. “Aye, you as well,” his lordship answered dully…an answer that seemed to surprise Marston Waters, whilst greatly displeasing Lord George Graceford. “And Gaemon Palehair, ’twas he who put the poison in the tart, I’ll venture,” Viserys went on glibly. “If it please my prince,” mumbled Thaddeus Rowan. Whereupon the prince turned to the king his brother and said, “Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of us…of nothing,” and the dwarf Mushroom called down, “Lord Rowan, was it you who poisoned King Viserys?” To which the old Hand nodded, saying, “It was, my lord. I do confess it.”

The king’s face grew hard. “Ser Marston,” he said, “this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king…else I will know that you are as false as he is.” His words rang across the inner ward, and in that moment, the broken boy Aegon III seemed every inch a king.

To this very day, some assert that Ser Marston Waters was no more than a catspaw, a simple honest knight used and deceived by men more subtle than himself, whilst others argue that Waters was part of the plot from the beginning, but turned upon his fellows when he sensed the tide turning against them."

 

It really was Larra and Viserys who poisoned Palehair and tried to poison Aegon and the Queen. It was Viserys' revenge to his brother for forcing him to send his dragon egg away from the Red Keep to Dragonstone. In additon to that Larra also set up her half-brothers, Lotho and Roggerio, when she sent them to pass poison to Lord Rowan, because Larra and her mother wanted to destroy House Rogare. Because Rogares bought Johanna from pirates, placed her into a pleasure house, and made her a whore. Years later she managed to seduce the owner of that pleasure house, gave birth to his daughter, and thru his bed (and with usage of magic) gained control over Lys.

Though I'm getting off the point here. The point is is that it's Johanna Swann and Larra Rogare, who in the Targaryen family tree were carriers of a skinchanging genes. They passed those genes to Shiera, Aegon and Aegon's descendants.

So back to what you wrote above -

16 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

there was no warging ability within the Targaryens.

it's not Targaryens who were carriers of a skinchanging gene, it were Johanna Swann's descendants.

Seems that Swanns are similar to Cranes, they are skinchangers. Though they don't skinchange into swan-birds.

"According to legend the house was founded by Rose of Red Lake, a daughter of Garth Greenhand. It is rumored that some female members of House Crane are able to skinchange into cranes.[1] "

I don't think that an ability to skinchange is limited to a specific kind of animal. Evidence, for example, Arya is able to skinchange both into direwolves and into cats. Bran is able to skinchange into direwolf, into ravens, and also into Hodor. Valamyr Sixskins was able to skinchange into snow bear, wolves, an eagle, and a shadow-cat, and near the end of his life he nearly succeeded in skinchanging into a human, spearwife Thistle.

So, if someone has a skinchanging ability, then with sufficient training he/she can skinchange into any kind of animal, or bird, or even into humans.

Thus Targaryens after Aegon the Unworthy were carriers of a skinchanging gene. And if that is so, then the explanation why there were no known skinchangers amongst them, is possibly because this skinchanging business works in the same manner as a red hair genes. A red hair genes are recessive, for a person to have a red hair, both of his/her parents has to be carriers of one of those genes, and when in their child two of those genes are getting combined, they turn from recessive to dominant, and as a result of that the child is born with red hair.

Ned and Cat, Rhaegar and Lyanna, Petyr and Lysa, Rhaegar and Elia - those four couples were carriers of a recessive skinchanging genes, in their children those genes got combined into pairs, and the children got dominant skinchanging genes, and were born with an ability to skinchange. An ability that they got from their ancestor - Johanna Swann, who was a (cat)skinchanger, and also passed this ability to her daughter Larra Rogare/Serenei, and to her granddaughter Shiera Seastar.

Shiera skinchanged into a shadow-cat that attaked Mance Rayder, then with usage of a shadow-magic she impersonated a wildling-healer. She was treating Mance, while he was recuperating from his wounds, caused by a shadow-cat. Shiera sewed Mance's cloack with a magical silk from Asshai. It is indeed was her grandmother who got that silk from Asshai, though it happened not how that woman told that story to Mance. Johanna Swann got that red silk from Asshai, while she was working as a courtesan in Lys. Shiera got that silk from her grandmother and mother, and she used it to bind Mance to her will. Three red-silk patches, because Shiera is the Three-Eyed Crow. It was the magic of that silk that caused Mance to desert from the Night's Watch and to begin gathering all the wildlings into a single tribe. Shiera did this because she knew that the Others will return, and thus she made Mance to gather an army for her, she will give that army to Jon, who is the Promised Prince. You (and other readers) will eventually find out all that in later books, when Mance will again meet Shiera, when she will come to Westeros. Shiera is Quaithe, and the Three-Eyed Crow. All this you will also find out in later books. Same as some readers haven't figured out that R+L=J, majority of readers also haven't figured out all that, what I wrote above.

@Alexis-something-Rose Later you'll see that I was right about everything. Then we will return to this conversation, what is canon, not canon, whatever. Let's discuss this later. When the book will be out.

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2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Aegon IV Targaryen + Melissa Blackwood

Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband

Based on what? Why would a Blackwood marry a bastard, what's more an incestuous marriage with a bastard?

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I'm going to weigh in with some tinfoil because covid lockdowns are making me crazy enough to say some stuff without any need to justify myself at all.   I'm OK with Dany being Rhaegar's third child by Ashera Dayne.  Given that Dany is the second coming of Ashera according to Selmy.  I think it was Ashera that Rhaegar fell in love with at Harrenhall rather than Lyanna.  I think it likely that Rhagar was addressing Ashera in Dany's vision on HoU when he said there must be one more.y.

I don't believe this bit but I enjoy reading new theories that have never been posted before, so thank you :)

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

It seems likely to me that Dany and Viserys were split up and "hidden" in different locations after their flight from Dragonstone with Viserys in Braavos and Dany in Lys where she would be hidden in plain sight.  Her Valyrion looks would not stand out in the population.  Lemon trees would easily grow in this climate and be used in the making of essential oils for perfumes.  Dany not only has visual memories of the lemon tree but olfactory memories of home.

This bit makes a good amount of sense and I wouldn't be disappointed if it was revealed to be true.

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7 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I don't believe this bit but I enjoy reading new theories that have never been posted before, so thank you :)

This bit makes a good amount of sense and I wouldn't be disappointed if it was revealed to be true.

Well what are we going to do during all this covid lockdown? I've barely seen anyone for a year now.  It's so bad, I've dragged out my old PS2 and I'm playing FFX with a vengeance. 

Edited by LynnS

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1 hour ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:
1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Aegon IV Targaryen + Melissa Blackwood

Mya Rivers + Blackwood husband

Based on what? Why would a Blackwood marry a bastard, what's more an incestuous marriage with a bastard?

It was not an incestuous marriage. They were cousins, like Tywin and Johanna Lannister, like Rickard Stark and his wife Lyarra Stark, like Jon Arryn and his first wife and cousin Rowena Arryn, like Shella Whent and her husband Walter Whent, etc.

Also don't forget that Mya was King Aegon's daughter, King Daeron's half-sister, King Maekar's aunt, Lord Bloodraven's sister. And her mother was a royalty from the Great House, she was half-Blackwood thru her mother and half-Targaryen thru her father. She was a very good match.

And the King legitimized all of his ucknowledged children on his deathbed. So she was not a bastard.

It's likely that there was a big dowry, that Aegon gave for his daughters, both for Mya and Gwenys. Also, if one of Blackwoods married with Bloodraven's sister, then thru them next generation of Blackwoods were Bloodraven's nephews and nieces, that way Blackwoods assured that Bloodraven will always support their House. He was de-facto ruler of 7K after his father's death. For a Blackwood to marry with Mya is a very favourable match.

And Aegon V married with Betha Blackwood because they were some sort of cousins, and Betha was Bloodraven's niece (several times removed). Also either Betha was Melantha's younger sister, or her first cousin.

Even when a Targaryen married with someone whose last name was not a Targaryen, if you'll track that person's ancestry, then you will see that that supposedly non-Targaryen wife is actually also a carrier of Targaryen genes. For example: Aemma Arryn (princess Daella's daughter), Aelinor Penrose (cousin and wife of Aerys I Targaryen), etc. I suppose that Jenna Dondarrion, Dyanna Dayne, Alys Arryn, and Betha Blackwood were also partially Targaryens. If you will go thru family tree of Starks, you'll see that the same tendency is present there - when Starks married outside of their House, those women with whom they married, were partially Starks by blood.

GRRM intentionally left gaps in the Starks' family tree, though by using patterns that he applied in his books, it's not hard to figure out what is missing from those gaps.

Cregan Stark + Alysanne Blackwood = Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah

A1) Sarra + Royce husband = Lorra Royce

A2) Lorra Royce + Beron Stark = Willam Stark

B1) Alys + Karstark husband = Alys Karstark

B2) Alys Karstark + Brandon Stark = Beron Stark (Lorra Royce's husband)

C1) Raya + Flint husband = Arya Flint (get it? Raya / Arya)

C2) Arya Flint + Rodrick Stark = Lyarra Stark

C3) Lyarra Stark + Rickard Stark = Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Benjen

D1) Mariah + Blackwood husband = Melissa Blackwood

D2) Melissa + Aegon IV Targaryen = Bloodraven, Gwenys, Mya

D3) Mya + Blackwood husband = Melantha Blackwood

D4) Melantha + Willam Stark (the guy from A2, son of Beron Stark from B2 and Lorra Royce from A1)

Eventually all of Cregan Stark's descendants intermarried - his four daughters, born by Alysanne Blackwood, had descendants that intermarried with descendants of Cregan's children, born by his third wife, Lynara Stark. 

Cregan and Lynara were parents of that Brandon who married with Alys Karstark. Alys Stark, Alys Karstark's mother, was Brandon's half-sister, thus Brandon was half-uncle to his wife. There was three occurances like that in a family tree of Starks, when an uncle married with his half-niece. Besides Brandon, the other two are Jonnel (who married with his half-niece, Sansa Stark), and Edric Stark (who married with his half-niece, Serena Stark, Sansa's sister). Two brothers, Jonnel and Edric, married with their half-nieces, who were sisters. Jonnel and Edric were Brandon's brothers. Same as them he also married with his half-niece. Three Stark brothers married with their half-nieces.

(Trinities is a pattern that GRRM frequently uses in his works.)

Then Brandon's and Alys Karstark's son, Beron, married with Lorra Royce, who was Sarra Stark's daughter. Brandon and Sarra were half-siblings, so their children were (a bit less than) first cousins. Beron married with his cousin Lorra. Then their son Willam married with Melantha Blackwood, whose mother was Willam's second cousin. So Melantha was something like Willam's niece twice removed, or something like that.

The point is is that Starks are same as Targaryens, they preferred to keep their gene-pool mostly unchanged. They kept their family close. It's likely that other Great Houses of 7K did the same thing. And Blackwoods too.

Also don't you see a similar pattern here? ->

Bellegere Otherys - Bellenora - Bellonara - Bellegere.

and here

Mariah - Melissa - Mya - Melantha.

Cregan Stark fought in a duel against Dragonknight, because he wanted Aegon to end his relationship with Cregan's granddaughter, Melissa Blackwood. Aegon was a King, so he didn't fought himself, instead he was using for such disputes his sworn sword and shield, his brother and a Lord Commander of Kingsguards, Aemon the Dragonknight. Cregan and Aemon fought, and Cregan won. That's why Aegon left Melissa.

Though Melissa's children were concidered a good match. In addition to everything I mentioned above, they were also bloodrelated to the Lord of the North. Mya was his great granddaughter. While House Blackwood are just bannermen of Tullys.

1. Mya's father was the King of 7K. 2. Her mother was a member of House Blackwood. 3. Her great grandfather was the Lord and Warden of the North. 4. Her brother was the Hand to several Kings. 5. The King's dowry.

Thus it was a very advantageous marriage.

The Archon of Tyrosh married his daughter with Daemon Blackfyre, who was a bastard (prior he got legitimized), while the Archon was a ruler of a city-kingdom. The Prince of Pentos married his sister with Illyrio, who was rich, but otherwise was a nobody.

So either one of Blackwoods married with Mya because this marriage was profitable/advantageous for him, or could be that they married out of love. Mya did lived at Raventree Hall with her mother and other Blackwoods. So could be that she and one of her Blackwood-cousins, with whom she was growing up, fell in love, and then they got married.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Read this post (above).

Your crackpot, to the point of fan fiction, is not a proof. You have made a crackpot based on crackpots and you want the others to accept your crackpots as truth and act on it. That is not how it works.

34 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She was a very good match.

An ancient house having a bastarrd as its Lady and somehow no one in the books have mentioned it? Not even Tytos? As I said fan fiction.

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