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CamiloRP

(f)dany

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

They aren't. 
Dany doesn't give almost any description. Here is the totality that I can find:

Yet in none of her descriptions she notes anything of what we know actually describes Braavos. We know Braavos as a humid cold place filled with fog, there are few houses, almost no gardens and almost no trees. But Dany describes a big house with a garden and a tree, she ran barefoot, which implies a warm climate, but Braavos is cold, and when describing the smells of her childhood she describes perfumes and sweet smells, but didn't she ever go outside? How does the house have wooden beams? isn't wood in Braavos supposed to be extremely expensive?

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

She doesn't 'not' remember fog. She doesn't describe the weather at all. Her memories are indoors.

except for "running towards a house with a red door".

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Or perhaps the smell of sickness that hung with Willem Darry? Thats the specific smell of his illness inside the room of a sick man, not the general climate outdoors.

Yes I was talking about this. Aemon's sickness is cold in Braavos, yes sickness can be different, but still, too keep the room warm in Braavos you need a lot of money, given how expensive wood is.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Because they do. Thats their natural climate. But rich people can afford to have out-of-climate luxuries. Dany lived with rich people.

Yes they do, but why is it important to keep bringing it up so many times? In storytelling the more important a fact is, the more times it's repeated, following that logic, the lemon tree thing must be super fucking important.

 


 

And yes you can say she lived in the Sealord's palace grounds, even though Braavosi realy don't like valyrians, and that's why there where gardens, threes and gardens even though Braavos is described as a city of close-together buildings, and you can say the sealord's palace has a greenhouse, even though the text never states that it has, or Dany never thinks about the lemon tree being in a greenhouse.

All of those points are assumptions you are making, and are not different to my assumptions that she wasn't in Braavos.

 

You can also say that her memories don't sound like Braavos because she wasn't thinking about the Braavosi characteristics, but if a character thought about living in Bear Island, and their memories where of swimming, running barefoot and hunting mountain lions, and was no mention of snow or cold, you would find it suspicious, yes, they can have thermal pools and glass gardens like in winterfell, and they can breed mountain lions for hunting, so it's possible, but it's weird.

Similarly, if a character has memories of Lemonwood and describes wearing thick coats, hunting wolves and fishing in lakes and makes no notes on the heat and the sands, you would find it weird.

 

All I'm saying is that in my opinion the text supports the house with the red door not being in Braavos, much more than it supports it being there. But by no meaning am I saying this is empirically the truth, the house with the red door could have been in Braavos. But I think GRRM wants us to at least consider that it wasn't, given how much info he gave that contradicts it being there, and that's all, me saying "the text supports it" it's not me saying "the text means it's true" it just means that the text states it could be true, which, even if you don't believe is true, you can't deny.

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57 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Which is why I didn't say that either. :rolleyes:

 

Still, the text doesn't say it's on the grounds either, it's just jumping to conclusions (I'm not criticizing, it's the same thing I'm doing, but that's the point, you are jumping to conclusions the same way I am)

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2 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yet in none of her descriptions she notes anything of what we know actually describes Braavos. We know Braavos as a humid cold place filled with fog, there are few houses, almost no gardens and almost no trees. But Dany describes a big house with a garden and a tree, she ran barefoot, which implies a warm climate, but Braavos is cold, and when describing the smells of her childhood she describes perfumes and sweet smells, but didn't she ever go outside? How does the house have wooden beams? isn't wood in Braavos supposed to be extremely expensive?

 

except for "running towards a house with a red door".

 

Yes I was talking about this. Aemon's sickness is cold in Braavos, yes sickness can be different, but still, too keep the room warm in Braavos you need a lot of money, given how expensive wood is.

 

Yes they do, but why is it important to keep bringing it up so many times? In storytelling the more important a fact is, the more times it's repeated, following that logic, the lemon tree thing must be super fucking important.

 


 

And yes you can say she lived in the Sealord's palace grounds, even though Braavosi realy don't like valyrians, and that's why there where gardens, threes and gardens even though Braavos is described as a city of close-together buildings, and you can say the sealord's palace has a greenhouse, even though the text never states that it has, or Dany never thinks about the lemon tree being in a greenhouse.

All of those points are assumptions you are making, and are not different to my assumptions that she wasn't in Braavos.

 

You can also say that her memories don't sound like Braavos because she wasn't thinking about the Braavosi characteristics, but if a character thought about living in Bear Island, and their memories where of swimming, running barefoot and hunting mountain lions, and was no mention of snow or cold, you would find it suspicious, yes, they can have thermal pools and glass gardens like in winterfell, and they can breed mountain lions for hunting, so it's possible, but it's weird.

Similarly, if a character has memories of Lemonwood and describes wearing thick coats, hunting wolves and fishing in lakes and makes no notes on the heat and the sands, you would find it weird.

 

All I'm saying is that in my opinion the text supports the house with the red door not being in Braavos, much more than it supports it being there. But by no meaning am I saying this is empirically the truth, the house with the red door could have been in Braavos. But I think GRRM wants us to at least consider that it wasn't, given how much info he gave that contradicts it being there, and that's all, me saying "the text supports it" it's not me saying "the text means it's true" it just means that the text states it could be true, which, even if you don't believe is true, you can't deny.

Idk why people are so firmly in denial over this, there`s even an SSM where GRRM acknowledges lemongate, complimenting the fan of their observation. So there’s that. Something IS up with the lemontrees of Braavos.

I don’t agree R+R=D but my pet theory hinges on babyswap (R+A=D) making it about as popular as lepresy.

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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Yet in none of her descriptions she notes anything of what we know actually describes Braavos.

None of her descriptions are outdoors.

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We know Braavos as a humid

No, Braavos isn't humid.

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cold place filled with fog, there are few houses,

There are many houses. Its a city. 

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The city had seemed like one big island from where the Titan stood, but as Yorko rowed them closer she saw that it was many small islands close together, linked by arched stone bridges that spanned innumerable canals. Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea.

This is just Arya's view being rowed closer to the city. She can't see all of it, just a few parts close to the harbour. There are many houses, just they are an unfamiliar style to her - there are few houses of the style she knows.

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almost no gardens and almost no trees.

Thats just Arya's viewpoint in the poorer sections. We know from elsewhere that there are trees and gardens in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

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"There's no more wood." Dareon had paid the innkeep double for a room with a hearth, but none of them had realized that wood would be so costly here. Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

 

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But Dany describes a big house with a garden and a tree,

Yes. She lived amongst the mighty.

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she ran barefoot, which implies a warm climate, but Braavos is cold,

 

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Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .
But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

Did a dragon burst from MMD's brow? No.
Did Dany ever see a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice? No.
These are not memories, they are metaphorical visions, allusions. At that stage the House with the Red Door represents the idea of home and security to her. The bare feet probably represent poverty and/or wandering homeless. 

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and when describing the smells of her childhood she describes perfumes and sweet smells, but didn't she ever go outside?

Probably she did. But she's remembering the good, safety and security, and its not surprising given the life she lived that thats indoors - especially in a cold climate.

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How does the house have wooden beams? isn't wood in Braavos supposed to be extremely expensive?

Fairly expensive, yes, but no ridiculously so. All those ships they have are made of wood. They trade etc. Wealthy people can afford wood and there are even a few wooden houses in the style she is familiar with in the less wealthy sections. 
So she lives in a rich house amongst the mighty. We knew that already.

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Yes I was talking about this. Aemon's sickness is cold in Braavos, yes sickness can be different, but still, too keep the room warm in Braavos you need a lot of money, given how expensive wood is.

Its not the room temperature thats hot and moist, its the smell.

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She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

And yes, they had money which was being used up apparently, until they didn't, then they were out of the house.

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Yes they do, but why is it important to keep bringing it up so many times? In storytelling the more important a fact is, the more times it's repeated, following that logic, the lemon tree thing must be super fucking important.

3 times in 5 books of the lemon tree outside the house with the red door. 
There are more mentions of lemons in both Sansa's and Aryas' storylines, even Jon's and Tyrion's than Dany's.

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And yes you can say she lived in the Sealord's palace grounds,

I didn't, and wouldn't, though I understand why others do.

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even though Braavosi realy don't like valyrians,

The Sealord was the witness to the document between Dorne and The Targaryen Court in exile offering a marriage. He is thus explicitly tied to Willem Darry and Dany's stay in Braavos at the house with the red door.

The Targaryen's in exile are not 'Valyrian's' - representatives of the powerful and dominating culture that the founders of Braavos escaped from, but exiled monarchs from another continent who could be very powerful friends in the future, perhaps.

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and that's why there where gardens, threes and gardens even though Braavos is described as a city of close-together buildings,

Part of Braavos is. Arya didn't go to the courts and gardens of the mighty.
Oddly enough, just like any city Braavos has different parts with different character.

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and you can say the sealord's palace has a greenhouse,

I didn't, and its not relevant. The lemon tree outside Dany's window wasn't in a greenhouse. It was outside her window, which translates as a sheltered location close to a (warm) building - exactly where you put such a tree outside its natural climate. 

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All of those points are assumptions you are making, and are not different to my assumptions that she wasn't in Braavos.

No. I'm not making any assumptions. I'm pointedly following the text closely.
You are taking a collection of misreadings and misunderstandings and creating something that doesn't exist in the text. Or rather, you're following someone else's misreadings and misunderstandings, as I understand it.

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You can also say that her memories don't sound like Braavos because she wasn't thinking about the Braavosi characteristics,

Didn't do that either. 

Her memories don't sound either like or unlike Braavos because the things she describes in them don't include anything identifying the location in that way.

Except of course her explicitly naming it Braavos. But that can be discounted entirely for some reason.
Oh, and the Sealord's seal as witness on the document. But that too can be discounted, of course.

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All I'm saying is that in my opinion the text supports the house with the red door not being in Braavos,

Then you ought to be able to support your opinion with textual quotes. So far, the references don't match..

 

Edited by corbon

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Idk why people are so firmly in denial over this, there`s even an SSM where GRRM acknowledges lemongate, complimenting the fan of their observation. So there’s that. Something IS up with the lemontrees of Braavos.

I know right? and I'm not even saying it's 100% the truth, I mean, I subscribe to it, but to say "there's no textual support for it" seems baffling to me.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I don’t agree R+R=D but my pet theory hinges on babyswap (R+A=D) making it about as popular as lepresy.

A as in Ashara? WTF, I'd love to hear about it, tho I doubt I'd buy it.

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Idk why people are so firmly in denial over this, there`s even an SSM where GRRM acknowledges lemongate, complimenting the fan of their observation. So there’s that. Something IS up with the lemontrees of Braavos.

Yup. Its an early clue that there is a Dornish connection during Dany's time in Braavos. Which we've seen now in the secret marriage pact.

The rest, as has been clearly show, is misreadings and misrepresentations. the actual text doesn't support the arguments that are used to support the red-door-house not being in Braavos.

 

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

No, Braavos isn't humid.

The constant fog, rain and freezing rain begs to differ.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

This is just Arya's view being rowed closer to the city. She can't see all of it, just a few parts close to the harbour. There are many houses, just they are an unfamiliar style to her - there are few houses of the style she knows.

Yeah, sure, but have you tried to consider why George presents it so differently? He has the choice to make it match Dany's memories, but chooses to present something quite different. 

And those houses unfamiliar to Arya just seem completely different to Dany's memories to.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Probably she did. But she's remembering the good, safety and security, and its not surprising given the life she lived that thats indoors - especially in a cold climate.

Still tho, if she lived in Braavos, the smells of her childhood should have something related to the city.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Fairly expensive, yes, but no ridiculously so. All those ships they have are made of wood. They trade etc. Wealthy people can afford wood and there are even a few wooden houses in the style she is familiar with in the less wealthy sections. 
So she lives in a rich house amongst the mighty. We knew that already.

And yet again you are missing the point, yes, it could happen, but you are only assuming it's in Braavos because you've been told that's were it is if I described a house with wooden beems, a lemon tree, where a child runs barefooted, and the smells related to it are sweet and warm, the last place you'd think off would be Braavos, you only think it is because you heard it and now you are covering the holes in the story however you can.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And yes, they had money which was being used up apparently, until they didn't, then they were out of the house.

In a place where lumber is so expensive even horseshit used as it is expensive, in a world where having a tree is a sign of might, having wooden beams with carved anymal faced must mean a whole bunch of fucking money, yet it was probably just Darry's money, because it was stolen from him after he died, was Darry that rich? notably it was little enough wealth that his servants could carry it. And if he had a Braavosi contact, why didn't they stay in the city after Darry's death?

1 hour ago, corbon said:

3 times in 5 books of the lemon tree outside the house with the red door. 
There are more mentions of lemons in both Sansa's and Aryas' storylines, even Jon's and Tyrion's than Dany's.

And yet

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 Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckeled fool? Why don’t you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too.”

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For me, Alayne thought, as they wheeled it out. Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more.

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Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzeled. “Went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

The last one is specially damming, George keeps repeating: there are no lemon trees in Braavos, if Dany's house was in Braavos why did he put a lemon tree in there? why not a pine? It seems that he at least wants us to suspect it. Maybe he wants to trow us off, maybe is a red herring, that could be the case, but if it where so, that would mean the text somewhat supports it.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

The Sealord was the witness to the document between Dorne and The Targaryen Court in exile offering a marriage. He is thus explicitly tied to Willem Darry and Dany's stay in Braavos at the house with the red door.

If he was involved, why didn't Viserys and Dany stayed with him after Darry's death?

Not to mention the whole bunch of problems there are with the pact: Darry can't make a pact, he's not a lord; why would he make this pact? it offers nothing to Viserys, if he gets no army, then Dorne does nothing, if he gets an army he has to marry into one of the least powerful kingdoms, instead of marrying, idk the Tyrels; Why didn't Doran help Viserys? he has contacts in Norvos and Volantis, and his brother founded an essossi sellsword company; What does the Sealord win with this pact? the Braavosi think Westerosi are savages and opose Valyrians; Why didn't the Sealord help Viserys; how can we prove the document is legit? There are seals and signatures, yes, but Dany doesn't even know the Martell sigil; Do you honestly think that Doran, a careful deliberate man, a man of Roynaar blood, a man who's been planning revenge for years have a plan so stupid as hoping a crazy child manages to get an army? 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

No. I'm not making any assumptions. I'm pointedly following the text closely.
You are taking a collection of misreadings and misunderstandings and creating something that doesn't exist in the text. Or rather, you're following someone else's misreadings and misunderstandings, as I understand it.

Nope, first time I came across this theory was after the Mercy chapter was released, when I read the above quote I immediatly thought of the house with the red door and searched if anyone had written about it, many people had, but the idea was in my brain before reading them.

And no, those aren't misunderstandings. The text says it over and over: "there are no lemon trees in Braavos" and Danys memories don't sound like the descriptions we have of Braavos at all. Yes, some rich dude could have a lemon tree, yes she could have lived in a house with a garden and ample space, I mean, there aren't any in most Braavos maps, but still that could be the case. But the author clearly wants us to wonder whats the truth.

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Then you ought to be able to support your opinion with textual quotes. So far, the references don't match..

Why don't you take a shot at it, all the evidence you have is that Viserys said it was Braavos, but hey, people lie, if not, ask Cat who killed Jon Arryn

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yup. Its an early clue that there is a Dornish connection during Dany's time in Braavos. Which we've seen now in the secret marriage pact.

LOL how does the fact that there's a lemon tree in Braavos show a dornish connection 

"And now, to close this marriage pact, the traditional exchanging of local fruit trees"

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49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The constant fog, rain and freezing rain begs to differ.

Partly fair enough. Humidity = water in air. But thats not how you were referencing it as you've been arguing about the warm climate evidenced in Dany's memories of the Red Door house, despite no actual evidence of warm climate in those memories.

In Autumn, 1 season out of 4, that weather is dominant. But you also get crisp clear days. 

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The day looked to be a rare one, crisp and clear and bright. Braavos only had three kinds of weather; fog was bad, rain was worse, and freezing rain was worst. But every so often would come a morning when the dawn broke pink and blue and the air was sharp and salty. Those were the days that Cat loved best.

Arya has only been in Braavos in Autumn. Thats all she knows of the weather.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yeah, sure, but have you tried to consider why George presents it so differently? He has the choice to make it match Dany's memories, but chooses to present something quite different. 

Presents what so differently?

Thats the point. Your 'differences' simply don't exist. Every single reference has been wrong.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And those houses unfamiliar to Arya just seem completely different to Dany's memories to.

Dany wasn't in those houses.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Still tho, if she lived in Braavos, the smells of her childhood should have something related to the city.

No, not 'still tho'. Her childhood was spent indoors. The smells of her childhood are indoors smells.

You have tried to make a point that is simply false. Its not going to get any less false by still pushing it.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And yet again you are missing the point, yes, it could happen, but you are only assuming it's in Braavos because you've been told that's were it is

I'm letting it be Braavos because not only hav ewe been told explicitly that it was Braavos, we have zero inconsistent evidence with it being Braavos and confirming evidence in the Sealords witness of the marriage pact.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

if I described a house with wooden beems, a lemon tree, where a child runs barefooted,

No child ran barefoot in Dany's red-door memories That was an allegorical vision, not a memory.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

and the smells related to it are sweet and warm,

The smells related to it are perfume. 
The 'warm' smell is not good warmth, and not related to the place. It is a bad warmth, a smell of sickness. A gave you the precise quote already.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

the last place you'd think off would be Braavos, you only think it is because you heard it and now you are covering the holes in the story however you can.

There. Are. No. Holes. In. The. Story. Just bad reading and arguing.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

In a place where lumber is so expensive

Its not that bad. You are over-claiming to create an issue that doesn't exist. there are whole houses made of wood within Arya's sight - and not luxurious rich houses either. 
Lumber is "so expensive" they build thousands of ship out of it and refuse to cut down the Pines on the overlooking ridge but leave them as a windbreak.
Yes, its expensive - its barged in. But not stupidly so.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

in a world where having a tree is a sign of might,

Its not 'having a tree' that is a sign of might. There are thousands of trees, soldier pines and firs, growing on the overlooking ridge. 
Its having the wealth to afford the space, of actual real land to have a live tree, in a city located on islands joined by canals where there is no room for expansion, that is a sign of might.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

having wooden beams with carved anymal faced must mean a whole bunch of fucking money,

Wealthy yes, though nothing like what you try to make it.

Note that there are whole houses made of wood in the poorer dock districts. Not so many, because stone works better, but enough for Arya to notice them.

Also, they didn't own the house, they just lived in it either through rent or the sufferance of a wealthy benefactor. Like Tyrion lives with Illyrio for a short while.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

yet it was probably just Darry's money, because it was stolen from him after he died, was Darry that rich? notably it was little enough wealth that his servants could carry it.

When Darry died, so did most of their prospects. Hence their backing dies as well, at least from those not emotionally involved.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And if he had a Braavosi contact, why didn't they stay in the city after Darry's death?

See above.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And yet

The last one is specially damming, George keeps repeating: there are no lemon trees in Braavos,

He says it once. And there aren't - in general terms. You don't go to Braavos to get lemons any more than you go to Dorne to get lumber. But that has no relevance on the fact that rich people can afford things that normal people cannot. 

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

if Dany's house was in Braavos why did he put a lemon tree in there? why not a pine?

Because a pine tree doesn't signify wealth and doesn't have the same scents or fruit. Its literally 'normal'. There are thousands of pines within sight on the ridge overlooking Braavos. A lemon tree though, thats exotic. A luxury. People like exotic and luxurious things if they can afford them.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

If he was involved, why didn't Viserys and Dany stayed with him after Darry's death?

He was a witness, not a backer. 
If you want my guess its because when Darry died Viserys and Dany were two children with no one to guide or protect them so no longer had significant prospects to be 'worth' taking care of by uninvolved foreigners.  
The Sealord doesn't want war with Robert. But he's perfectly happy to stand witness to a secret pact and be counted as a 'friend' in the distant future if things work out for them - at little or no cost to himself or to Braavos.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Not to mention the whole bunch of problems there are with the pact: Darry can't make a pact, he's not a lord; why would he make this pact? it offers nothing to Viserys, if he gets no army, then Dorne does nothing, if he gets an army he has to marry into one of the least powerful kingdoms, instead of marrying, idk the Tyrels; Why didn't Doran help Viserys? he has contacts in Norvos and Volantis, and his brother founded an essossi sellsword company; What does the Sealord win with this pact? the Braavosi think Westerosi are savages and opose Valyrians; Why didn't the Sealord help Viserys; how can we prove the document is legit? There are seals and signatures, yes, but Dany doesn't even know the Martell sigil; Do you honestly think that Doran, a careful deliberate man, a man of Roynaar blood, a man who's been planning revenge for years have a plan so stupid as hoping a crazy child manages to get an army? 

Now you are just being silly. The pact is a thing. Your questions here are nonsensical and even counter each other.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Nope, first time I came across this theory was after the Mercy chapter was released, when I read the above quote I immediatly thought of the house with the red door and searched if anyone had written about it, many people had, but the idea was in my brain before reading them.

Sorry, I took you for your word when you talked about an essay you read in the OP.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

And no, those aren't misunderstandings.

barefeet - misunderstanding
warm temperature/air - misunderstanding
no houses - misunderstanding
wood thing - misunderstanding
no smell of the sea - indoor vs outdoor mistake
no fog - indoor vs outdoor mistake

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The text says it over and over: "there are no lemon trees in Braavos"

Its not even said once.
One character makes a generalisation that Braavos is further north and colder that the 'hot' Free Cities where the citrus type trees, hot peppers, warm nights and bare bellied girls are.

Westerosi people think of lemons as coming from Dorne. And they do. We hear it several times. They also come from the southern Free Cities, Lys, Myr and Old Volantis, as per your quote.

All of that only speaks to the places where lemon trees are naturally acclimated, indigenous even.

Rich people, and Dany was living in a rich house with servants etc, can afford exotics.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

and Danys memories don't sound like the descriptions we have of Braavos at all.

False. Dany's memories do not speak to any place. They are entirely indoors.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Yes, some rich dude could have a lemon tree, yes she could have lived in a house with a garden and ample space, I mean, there aren't any in most Braavos maps, but still that could be the case. But the author clearly wants us to wonder whats the truth.

We are explicitly given information that the Sealord keeps a menagerie containing many exotic animals that require a great deal of space.

Quote

Braavos is a city renowned for its architecture: the sprawling Sealord's Palace, with its magnificent menagerie of queer beasts and birds from all around the world;

...

The ships of Braavos sail as far as the winds blow, to lands strange and wonderful, and when they return their captains fetch queer animals to the Sealord's menagerie. Such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws. Syrio Forel has seen these things.

This is not 'could have' made up stuff. 
Dany explicitly lived in a rich house in Braavos. With wooden beams and wooden carvings and servants. And a lemon tree in a sheltered spot by the house.
Rich people in Braavos are the same as rich people everywhere else. They the things that poorer people can't afford - comfort, space, and exotics. 

You don't have to believe that it was Braavos. Question that, fine. But there simply is not any evidence, of any kind, that it was not in Braavos. Every piece of evidence you've tried to use has simply not said what you claimed it did.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Why don't you take a shot at it, all the evidence you have is that Viserys said it was Braavos, but hey, people lie, if not, ask Cat who killed Jon Arryn

I'm not arguing that is has to be Braavos. I'm pointing out that the claims of their being evidence its not Braavos are simply wrong.

Having said that, there is corroborating evidence that it was in Braavos. The Sealord's witness shows the document was signed in Braavos.
So we have a stated 'fact'. We have independent corroborating evidence of that 'fact'. And we have zero evidence that counters that fact. Its not so much a closed case as simply no case at all.

49 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

LOL how does the fact that there's a lemon tree in Braavos show a dornish connection 

Ahh, you are the one who keeps pointing to the fact that lemon trees come from Dorne, and don't come from Braavos. 
We have something in Braavos that is clearly an exotic. An exotic from Dorne (among other places). If you want to call it a literary clue to a dornish connection during Dany's time in Braavos, go ahead. And look, thats been back up by the marriage pact. 

 

Have you thought about what it signifies that Dany's happy-safe memories are all indoors, and a lemon tree is exotic?

I mean, if red-door-house was in Dorne, for example, why aren't her memories of sunshine, water gardens or similar, swimming in outdoor pools, rows and rows and rows of lemon trees... ?

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I did not jump immediately to mother/son incest. My first thought was that OP was asking about R+L and the Jon/Dany twin theory. 

R + R = D is much more fun, though.

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7 hours ago, corbon said:

Yup. Its an early clue that there is a Dornish connection during Dany's time in Braavos. Which we've seen now in the secret marriage pact.

The rest, as has been clearly show, is misreadings and misrepresentations. the actual text doesn't support the arguments that are used to support the red-door-house not being in Braavos.

 

Nah thats too thin. I dont mind you not buying into it but I dont see who died and made you the lord of tinfoil. 

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16 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

Dany is more often compared to Rhaegar than Aerys and her story keeps bringing back her "remembering who she is" as if she isn't who she thinks she is. 

If Viserys was like Aerys and Rhaegar was nothing like Aerys, wouldn't that mean that Rhaegar was more like Rhaella? If Dany is more like Rhaegar than Aerys and Rhaegar is more like Rhaella, then Dany would be more like her mother, no?

The exchange with she has with Daario in Dany IV, ADwD 23, goes right along with that trippy vision quest she had in Dothraki sea. Dany has tried to do the right thing so much that she lost herself and her most grievous sin was locking up her dragons who are part of her identity.

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Maybe the house with the red door really wasn't in Braavos, but it doesn't mean that Dany isn't Aerys' and Rhaella's child.

I think that there's a possibility that Willem Darry was working for Varys, and thus the Targaryen-duo were always under Varys' control. Even in those years after Darry's death, when they were homeless and were wandering from city to city. If Darry was Varys' agent, then he could have brought Dany and Viserys to Tyrosh (the original stronghold of Golden Company), and lied to them that this is Braavos. Apparently they were kept on the mansion's premises and weren't free to go out and to explore the city. And it seems likely that they didn't knew whatever language local people were speaking. And they were children, so they could have not known in what city they are living. After Darry's death, Varys' other agents took them from whatever city they were at that time, and brought them elsewhere. If they were traveling on a ship, and Viserys knew nothing about seafaring, then those people could have taken them from Tyrosh, sailed them north to Myr or Pentos, and then said that they brought them south all the way here from Braavos.

Or, if whoever was transporting Dany and Viserys, weren't Varys' agents, then they could have tricked Viserys for a different reason. For example, he believed that they are in Braavos, because that's what Darry told him. And later he even met the Sealord of Braavos, which confirmed his belief that they are now in Braavos, even though they weren't. Could be that Darry decided to betray Varys, and to use Targaryen-duo for his own benefit, or maybe he regretted his previous actions and wanted to help them, so he contacted the Sealord and made with him a pact concerning Viserys. Or could be that originally Darry was intending to bring them to Braavos, but on the way there they were intercepted by ships of Golden Company, who forced Darry instead of Braavos to sail to Tyrosh, and that's were they were given a house with the red door, in which they lived under Varys' control. Though eventually Darry managed to get in contact with the Sealord of Braavos. Could be that he made some sort of agreement with that guy, even before he took Targaryen-duo from Dragonstone. So they agreed that Darry will bring Targaryens to Braavos, under protection of the Sealord, but they were intercepted by Golden Company, and brought to Tyrosh. Though eventually the Sealord managed to fing them, and again got in contact with Darry. He helped him to establish connection with Martells in Dorne, and they were planning to take Targaryen-duo away from that mansion (which was in Tyrosh). But Varys somehow found out about Darry's plans, and got him poisoned, and Darry got ill and died slowly, and it looked like an illness.

Then Viserys took from that house whatever valuables they still had, and asked people at the port to transport them out of the city. He didn't knew a local language, so he wasn't aware that they are in Tyrosh and not in Braavos. And those people after realising this, decided to use his unawarness and to trick him. They agreed to transport him from "Braavos", and said that they are sailing to Tyrosh and will take him there. Then they took Targaryen-duo on board of their ship, got out of Tyrosh' port, sailed for a few days "in circles" and then "arrived" to Tyrosh. And Viserys paid them money, for a trip from Braavos to Tyrosh, while actually he was brought from Tyrosh back to Tyrosh.

Or something like that.

And when Dany will go along west coast of Essos, towards Westeros, on her way she will visit Tyrosh, and maybe there she will see a house with the red door. But she will think that it can't be that house, beause that house was in Braavos. Then she will go to Braavos, and from the Sealord will find out that she never lived in Braavos, that when the Sealord made that pact with Darry and Martells, Dany and Viserys at that time were living in Tyrosh, in one of mansions that belonged to Golden Company. So Dany will realise that all that time, from their departure from Dragonstone and until her wedding with Khal Drogo, she was always under Varys'/Illyrio's control.

If the house with the red door was in Tyrosh, it explains lemon tree and warm climate, and that "Braavos" from Dany's childhood memories doesn't look like Arya's Braavos. 

Though this doesn't mean that she isn't Aerys' and Rhaella's child.

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I agree w/ what @corbon said. And I will add that this is exactly the type of misdirection Martin likes to write into plots. Vague, just a hint of something that may cause some readers to follow a false lead. I say false lead because, if you look at the text closely, these leads go nowhere and there isn’t really proper support for them. In a way, it’s similar to the story we get from Meera about the Harrenhal tourney and the bit where Ned, too shy to leave his bench, dances w/ Ashara but only after Brandon asks her to. And that leads some readers to N+A=J, which is, IMO, deliberate misdirection w/ the purpose of casting doubt on R+L=J. 
We get the same type of thing w/ the house w/ the red door in Braavos. Namely, lemons being associated w/ Dorne, descriptions of an unfavourable climate for lemons in Braavos, etc. And at the same time, Dany’s memories, the fact that her recollections are few and all exclusively from indoors, etc. 

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

Presents what so differently?

The author presents us with  something that happened in Braavos, then, he describes Braavos, nothing of what we know to be true abut Braavos is present in the events that suposedly happened in Braavos, that's suspicious at the very least. Again with my example of Bear Island and Lemonwood, yes it could be explained in some way, there's always a way to make anything you want fit anywhere, but if he wanted us to be 100% sure it was, he would have put any evidence of it other than Viserys telling Dany it was Braavos.

If I tell you "I spend my childhood in Yakutsk, Russia, I have so many happy memories in there, swimming, drinking lemonade and being warm" it's not impossible that I'm telling the truth, but it is weird that my memories don't seem to match the place.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

No, not 'still tho'. Her childhood was spent indoors. The smells of her childhood are indoors smells.

You don't know her childhood was spent indoors, you are assuming that based on one memory or two.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

I'm letting it be Braavos because not only hav ewe been told explicitly that it was Braavos

Yes, we were also told that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, that the valyrian steel dagger was Tyrion's, that Jon Connington was dead, that Barristan was called Arstan Whitebeard, that Davos was killed in Whiteharbor. And the worst one, Viserys told Dany that the "usurper's knives" where after them. Yet we know this to be false. Jon Arryn persuaded Robert not to kill them, and the poisoner he sent to her is clarely the first assassin he sends.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

we have zero inconsistent evidence with it being Braavos 

Not inconsistent, again, I'm not saying that it can't be Braavos, I'm saying that there are some things pointing at it maybe not being, as the text states, if you think there are lemon trees north of the Riverlands, you are a fool, and if you think there are lemon trees in Braavos, you are a fool. (note, I'm not trying to insult you, nor am I saying you are a fool, I'm just pointing out how weird it is that the text says that the idea of lemon trees in Braavos is foolish)

5 hours ago, corbon said:

No child ran barefoot in Dany's red-door memories That was an allegorical vision, not a memory.

Say you, it might have been a memory.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

When Darry died, so did most of their prospects. Hence their backing dies as well, at least from those not emotionally involved.

What about the Dornish support? that means a heck of a lot more than the support of a single exiled master at arms.

5 hours ago, corbon said:

He says it once. And there aren't - in general terms. You don't go to Braavos to get lemons any more than you go to Dorne to get lumber. But that has no relevance on the fact that rich people can afford things that normal people cannot. 

Not once, the riverlands are south of Braavos, and yet the idea of lemon trees being there is "foolish", Septon Maribald says he can only get oranges in Dorne, same as littlefinger, and The Vale is also south from Braavos. Finally, in the Mercy chapter, the guy point blankedly says that there are no lemon trees in Braavos, and claims that Raff is a fool that can't reed a map because he thought he would fin lemons there. If that scene would have been in the TV show, the character probably would have look directly at the camera and winked.

Yes. Rich people can afford things that non-rich people can't. But why bring up the lemon tree thing if this was the point? To show that Dany stayed with rich people? we already know that. Whats the point of the lemon tree? The idea that it shows dornish support is reaching a lot. How does having a lemon tree mean dornish support? You said that there probably was a lemon tree in Winterfell's glass gardens, does that mean a secret pact to marry Sansa to Drey? I have a Maple tree in my back yard, does that mean I'm friends with Justin Trudeau? 

When asked about this, GRRM said

Quote
Very perceptive of you.
Yes, it does point to . . . well, that would be telling.

What does it point to then? The marriage pact? that seems ridiculous. That Dany lived with rich people? we already knew that.

6 hours ago, corbon said:

He was a witness, not a backer. 
If you want my guess its because when Darry died Viserys and Dany were two children with no one to guide or protect them so no longer had significant prospects to be 'worth' taking care of by uninvolved foreigners.  

Wasn't the pact a significant prospect? Isn't Dorne backing them more important than an exiled master at arms? If Dorne was backing them, why didn't Doran help them?

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Now you are just being silly. The pact is a thing. Your questions here are nonsensical and even counter each other.

Counter each other? You mean like saying Dany and Viserys had no prospects and that they had the support of Dorne?

If I'm being silly tell me why.

How did Darry make a pact that he has no legal power to make?

Why would he make a pact that offers nothing to Viserys, if he gets no army, then Dorne does nothing, if he gets an army he has to marry into one of the least powerful kingdoms, instead of marrying a more loyal and powerful house like the Tyrells? What does Viserys win with this pact?

Why didn't Doran help Viserys at all if this was his carefully planned fourteen years in the making, revenge achieving plot? he has contacts in Norvos and Volantis, and his brother founded an essossi sellsword company, why didn't he used them?

Why didn't the Sealord help Viserys?

 how can we prove the document is legit? There are seals and signatures, yes, but Dany doesn't even know the Martell sigil.

Doran is said to be a careful deliberate man,  a man who's been planning revenge for years. Yet his only plan is to have a crazy, exiled eightyearold manage to get support and do anything for himself? What would have he done if the Targs failed? would he toss his hands up in the air, say "oh well" and do nothing? Would he sit around for another fourteen years trying to come up with an equally stupid plan?

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Sorry, I took you for your word when you talked about an essay you read in the OP.

Yes, I read an essay about a different thing, I never said anything about the lemon tree in the original post.

 

barefeet - misunderstanding - Say you
warm temperature/air - misunderstanding - Nope, all I'm saying is how weird it is that she describes it in a way that doesn't give any clue that its Braavos
no houses - misunderstanding - Nope, again, the house as described is particularly un-braavosi, that doesn't mean it couldn't possibly be in Braavos, but again, it's weird.
wood thing - misunderstanding - Nope, again, it could be in Braavos, but it makes it a bit weird.
no smell of the sea - indoor vs outdoor mistake - Didn't she spend any time outside? how can someone think of Braavos and not think of the sea?
no fog - indoor vs outdoor mistake - same as above

6 hours ago, corbon said:

You don't have to believe that it was Braavos. Question that, fine. But there simply is not any evidence, of any kind, that it was not in Braavos. Every piece of evidence you've tried to use has simply not said what you claimed it did.

Yes there is, GRRM thinks its important to state over and over where citrus grow. For what end? 

I'm not saying the house couldn't be in Braavos because it's impossible to grow a lemon tree in there. I'm saying I think it isn't in Braavos because GRRM puts a lot of thought into every line and called people perceptive for pointing the lemon tree thing out. 

It's not illogical for a lemon tree to be in Braavos, it could happen, and if nothing was said about it I wouldn't think of it, or maybe I'd do like you and say "oh, they had a lemon tree because they where rich, neat" but that's not the only thing, the text brings up at least five times where lemons come from, and it's not Braavos, doesn't that sound weird?

6 hours ago, corbon said:

I mean, if red-door-house was in Dorne, for example, why aren't her memories of sunshine, water gardens or similar, swimming in outdoor pools, rows and rows and rows of lemon trees... ?

I never said she was in Dorne.

The point is, excluding that we were told it was Braavos, nothing in the dreams points to it being there.

Running barefoot? points no a warmer climate, not Braavos.

The smells? Point to a place with no particular smell of it's own, not a port city.

The lemon tree? points to a place with lemon trees, and even though lemon trees can grow anywhere if you want it to, we should look for the places where it's easier for lemon trees to grow

Houses with gardens, trees and wooden beams? well, it'd be easier to find houses like those anywhere other than Braavos.

 

You are taking your conclusion first (the house is in Braavos) and then having the rest of the text fit it. Making excuses for the things that don't make sense. But if you take the descriptions we get first and use them to try to figure out where the house is, you won't get a definitive answer, but you'd probably never think of Braavos.

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6 hours ago, SeanF said:

R + R = D is much more fun, though.

My favorite absolutely nonsense theory is that Val is Jon's twin. The guys who made it seem completely sure and it's so stupid! it cracks me up every time

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ what @corbon said. And I will add that this is exactly the type of misdirection Martin likes to write into plots. Vague, just a hint of something that may cause some readers to follow a false lead. I say false lead because, if you look at the text closely, these leads go nowhere and there isn’t really proper support for them. In a way, it’s similar to the story we get from Meera about the Harrenhal tourney and the bit where Ned, too shy to leave his bench, dances w/ Ashara but only after Brandon asks her to. And that leads some readers to N+A=J, which is, IMO, deliberate misdirection w/ the purpose of casting doubt on R+L=J. 
We get the same type of thing w/ the house w/ the red door in Braavos. Namely, lemons being associated w/ Dorne, descriptions of an unfavourable climate for lemons in Braavos, etc. And at the same time, Dany’s memories, the fact that her recollections are few and all exclusively from indoors, etc. 

Sure, but for it to be successful misdirection the text has to support it, and @corbon keeps saying that there's no support at all, which seems baffling to me.

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17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

if he wanted us to be 100% sure it was, he would have put any evidence of it other than Viserys telling Dany it was Braavos.

Hit the nail on the head there. Martin doesn’t want us to be “100% sure” of anything until he is good and ready to make the reveal. 

17 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

You don't know her childhood was spent indoors, you are assuming that based on one memory or two.

No, we don’t. But we don’t get a description of anything outdoors when she thinks of the house w/ the red door. Not a one. 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

Sure, but for it to be successful misdirection the text has to support it, and @corbon keeps saying that there's no support at all, which seems baffling to me.

No, the text doesn’t have to support it. All that is required is to cast doubts on some things. For instance, Martin’s comment about the person asking about lemon trees in Braavos being perceptive does just that, too. It’s a non-answer that keeps the speculation viable, at least theoretically.

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Hit the nail on the head there. Martin doesn’t want us to be “100% sure” of anything until he is good and ready to make the reveal. 

But it'd be a lame reveal "that thing you thought was Braavos turns up to be... Braavos."

 

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4 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

But it'd be a lame reveal "that thing you thought was Braavos turns up to be... Braavos."

 

I disagree. Part of the problem is that a lot of people want more mysteries, more hidden identities, more dead characters who aren’t really dead, and so on. And a lot of people want to “discover the hidden truth” and be that one special snowflake who figured it all out. There are mysteries in the story, sure, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

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