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Helman Corbray

Will someone follow Robb's will?

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King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

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We don’t know that Robb sent the will north. In all likelihood, he didn’t. When he gives his instructions to Mormont and Glover, he tells them they’re going to sail into the Neck to try to find Howland Reed, or, more likely, to be found by Reed’s men. Robb also tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they fall into enemy hands. Given that Robb knows Mormont and Glover could be taken by enemies, I think it’s extremely unlikely that he would send his will w/ them as well. 

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33 minutes ago, Helman Corbray said:

King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

That depends. If the will went into the Neck, then it would depend on Howland Reed what he is going to do with it.

Considering the man likely knows who Jon Snow actually is, it is rather interesting what he would do if he realized Robb Stark didn't know that and decided to name Jon Snow his heir, possibly legitimizing him to do so (which we do not actually know that happened, as George himself pointed out).

If Howland were to support that will people can kiss the idea goodbye that Howland Reed is ever going to talk about Jon Snow's true parentage because the will would legitimize Jon Snow as Eddard Stark's son by an unknown woman, not as Rhaegar Targaryen's son by Lyanna Stark.

After all, it also stands to reason that Jojen and Meera know what Howland knows about Jon Snow since they also know about the mystery knight at Harrenhal ... yet they didn't tell Bran about any of that nor did they take a detour to the Wall to try to inform Jon Snow about who he actually is. Keep in mind the Reeds were surprised that Bran didn't know the mystery knight story - indicating they would have thought Eddard Stark told his family who Jon Snow actually was.

The idea that this will could come into play in a meaningful way is also not very likely since it should be about to be discovered that both Brandon and Rickon Stark are still alive. Jon Snow was not willing to usurp the place of Sansa Stark as ruler of the North, meaning it is exceedingly unlikely he would ever be willing to push a claim against Bran and Rickon.

If Rickon were to die soon, and Bran were seen as a cripple and tree-man unable/unsuited to succeed to Winterfell, then, perhaps, he might consider stuff like that ... but by then people should have learned that Sansa - and possibly even Arya - Stark are still around.

More importantly, I don't buy for a second that the Northmen are keen to want a guy in charge who was once not only a black brother but the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. That would be very weird, to say the least.

I'd say if Robb's will actually contained legitimization nonsense and a decree disinheriting Sansa Stark then it is going to be as relevant to the plot - and will be treated as respectfully - as Robert's will was treated by Ned (who forged it) and Cersei (who ripped it to pieces).

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2 hours ago, Helman Corbray said:

King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

Robb never had a kingdom.  He was working towards making the north his. He failed.  

Only Manderly and some of the northern lords.   Robb's will is not going to have any respect at the Wall.  It won't have any support in the south.  His heir will be promptly beheaded for treason as soon as he comes back from getting stabbed.  

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I wonder whether the "Will" characters provide any clues about the status of Robb's will?

The first Will introduced to readers is the Night's Watch brother and POV who accompanies Ser Waymar and Gared on the fateful ranging that also introduces the Others. Will climbs a tree, climbs down, finds Ser Waymar's shattered sword (and plans to use it as evidence) and is then (presumably) wighted by the undead Ser Waymar.

Most "Will" characters seem to stay off-camera: Willas Tyrell stays home at Highgarden while other Tyrells promote the family's interests in battle and at the court. Wylla the wet nurse is rumored, in some versions of the story, to be Jon Snow's mother.

We do get to see Willow Heddle, who seems to be a smallfolk version of Arya Stark. With her sister, Jeyne, she runs the inn at the crossroads after it becomes an orphanage.

There is a number of minor Wills throughout ASOIAF. Several seem to be sellswords. The sellsword companies seem to be places where GRRM stores the old resentments and future challenges toward the current powers-that-be in Westeros.

We know that Cersei rips up Robert's will, if that's the right name for the document Ned wrote on his behalf while the king was dying. Cersei also disregards any plan that Lord Gyles Rosby might have had for leaving his estate to his ward. These are only two data points, but it seems that wills don't seem to have much power in Westeros, at least while Cersei is around.

Don't know if there are hints here that might help us discern the future of Robb's will.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don’t know that Robb sent the will north. In all likelihood, he didn’t. When he gives his instructions to Mormont and Glover, he tells them they’re going to sail into the Neck to try to find Howland Reed, or, more likely, to be found by Reed’s men. Robb also tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they fall into enemy hands. Given that Robb knows Mormont and Glover could be taken by enemies, I think it’s extremely unlikely that he would send his will w/ them as well. 

Yeah, the will was never specifically mentioned. Just Robb giving orders to his lords orally while stating the written orders they carry will be false. Reed would make sense as a caretaker to the will, except that if Robb thinks capture is likely enough to give out false intelligence, he seemingly wouldn't be likely to risk his will to that gauntlet. Or at least the only copy. That seems like a document important enough you'd want to distribute multiple copies lest someone be accused of serving their own interests. Especially since the Tullys don't seem to want Jon in the position. Manderly for example may prefer a liege lord he can raise, control and marry to one of his daughters than to the outsider Jon Snow. 

As for the importance of the will, it really depends on what is there and how it is worded. Sansa seems certain to be disinherited. If the wording is simply Jon is legitimized and is my heir, then that would seem to trump Bran and Rickon's claims too. If it details the circumstances of their deaths, then maybe Jon would be seen as a Regent until the younger brothers come of age? Spirit of the document more than the letter there likely. 

But I guess the Great Nothern Conspiracy will always be a thing until it does or doesn't happen.

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We don’t know that Robb sent the will north. In all likelihood, he didn’t. When he gives his instructions to Mormont and Glover, he tells them they’re going to sail into the Neck to try to find Howland Reed, or, more likely, to be found by Reed’s men. Robb also tells them they’ll be carrying false intel, in case they fall into enemy hands. Given that Robb knows Mormont and Glover could be taken by enemies, I think it’s extremely unlikely that he would send his will w/ them as well. 

Any ideas as to what this false intel might be?  Would be interesting to see some misfire in all that scheming.  In that we haven't heard Mormont & Glover were taken by anyone, I think it's almost safe to assume they made it to their destination.   Almost. 

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I think it's significant that Robb announced that he had written a will, and asked his bannerman to witness it ... And then, boom, the chapter ended. We don't know what the will actually says. Given Robb's earlier heated debate with Catelyn about it, it's certainly possible that he changed his mind.   If the will shows up later in the story (admittedly a rather big "if"), I think there will be some kind of surprise in there.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Aebram said:

I think it's significant that Robb announced that he had written a will, and asked his bannerman to witness it ... And then, boom, the chapter ended.

Earlier in the chapter, though, his lords brought in the captain of the Myraham, who told of the succession crisis in the Iron Isles, and then was asked to wait outside. It's always been my assumption that the captain was given a copy of the will to deliver to the Citadel archives in Old Town. (We can be sure he wouldn't have been heading north, back towards the Iron Isles, having just managed to escape from there.)

If this is the case, then Robb's Will is theoretically accessible to Samwell Tarley.

At this point, speculation may rage about what the will said, and whether it even will have any force, given that Robb is dead, his "kingship" can be questioned, and what the dominant force in the North will be if and when it's found. Stannis would gladly honor it, because he wanted to place Jon Snow-Stark as Lord of Winterfell and the North. Cersei would tear it up (she only respects her own word of the moment). And Lady Stoneheart would not like it at all.

-------------

(several hours later) Heh. Apparently nobody likes my Myraham hypothesis.

Edited by zandru
general sadness

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I bet Robb gave the will (or one of the copies) to Jeyne Westerling for safekeeping. He would have trusted her completely. A document is probably something she could conceal from her mother, unlike the crown Robb gave her.

Robb would have no clue that Lady Westerling had conspired with Tywin, so he would have no inkling that Jeyne would be bundled off as a quasi-hostage after his death. If Jeyne has the will, she will have a difficult time getting it into the hands of anyone who might want to implement its directives for Winterfell and the North.

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I believe that is what Catelyns/Stonehearts singular purpose now is. And coincidentally she has the power to resurrect someone and Jon happens to be dead.

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1 minute ago, Makk said:

I believe that is what Catelyns/Stonehearts singular purpose now is. And coincidentally she has the power to resurrect someone and Jon happens to be dead.

That actually sounds good, until you recall that

  1. Jon is a thousand leagues away at the Wall
  2. Catelyn has always hated him with the heat of a thousand suns
  3. Lady Stoneheart knows nothing of Jon's current condition

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Issue here being who survived who bore witness to it? 

As far as we know, everyone but Robb and Cat, I think. Edmure is alive, and we haven't heard of Mallister dying, nor Mormont & Glover. And the Greatjon, last we heard, was a captive at the Twins. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Any ideas as to what this false intel might be?  Would be interesting to see some misfire in all that scheming.  In that we haven't heard Mormont & Glover were taken by anyone, I think it's almost safe to assume they made it to their destination.   Almost. 

Isn’t it about the strategy Robb’s planning on using? I may be misremembering... 

I agree that it’s very likely that Mormont and Glover made it to their destination. But the more interesting question for me is, where are they now

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9 hours ago, Helman Corbray said:

King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

King?  Lord Robb Stark is a better and a more accurate title for the young wolf.  His rebellion was not successful.  The north is still one of the seven kingdoms of Westeros. 

Someone will follow his will.  Those who do will accept him legitimized.  An equal number will not and hate him for what he did at the Wall.  He let Mance Rayder loose on them, tore apart the Night's Watch, deserted his post, and helped arranged the marriage of a Wildling to a noble woman.  It will cause a civil war in the north.  Some of the folks hold the Starks in high regard while others are ready to move on and stay on good terms with the king on the iron throne.  I am afraid it could make Jon Snow a real Stark and turn him into the illegal King of the North.  That would be bad for Westeros.  This is the time for everybody to work together instead of playing family feud.  We already know how bias Jon is towards the Starks.  This can only end badly. 

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I had to go back and read the text.  We don't know where this will went.  What says anyone with any power actually has it?  Robb having made his will known may only go so far with both the lords and NW.  His idea was to sort of trade 100 new men in a sort of exchange for Jon's freedom.  I'm not even sure there are 100 men left to exchange for any considerations.   As things have transpired at the Wall, there are some who would have been delighted to get rid of Jon, but in light of the actual events, they didn't know about Robb's will.  What is actually left to Robb's power that his agents could trade for Jon?  Would the witnesses (Glover, Edmure, Mormont, Umber and Jason Mallister best as I can tell) be able to raise that sort of ransom?  

Amid all this crossing and double crossing and fake out and scheming maybe the best we can hope for is one of the witnesses survives and has the opportunity to tell Jon Robb's intentions some day.  

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4 hours ago, zandru said:

That actually sounds good, until you recall that

  1. Jon is a thousand leagues away at the Wall
  2. Catelyn has always hated him with the heat of a thousand suns
  3. Lady Stoneheart knows nothing of Jon's current condition

1 - Yes, there is a distance but keep in mind that the last we saw from Jaime and Brienne (and Stoneheart), was several months before the last we saw of Jon. Whatever Stoneheart is up to, it is quiet enough not to bring up an alert or intersect any of the other storylines. Travelling to the wall would be one possibility. She could actually be there by the time Jon is stabbed.

2 - This is actually why I thought it likely. To quote GRRM quoting William Faulkner - "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself". He throws characters into situations where they have to make decisions they don't like. In this case it is to fulfill the last command and dying wish of the son and king she loves, against supporting the son-in-law she hates and mistrusts. Furthermore she knows Arya was still alive which makes it even harder.

3 -  This is not relevant. She makes her decision well before Jon is dead. She captures Jaime Lanister to replace Jon as commander of the Nights watch and free him from his vows. Then she travels to the wall and finds him dead. Luckily for the story she can bring him back to life.

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14 hours ago, Helman Corbray said:

King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

Robb's will will have an effect on the plot.  It's just a question of whether it will result in something good or bad.  The Boltons will lose their hold on the north and that means somebody like Wayman Manderly will support a Stark restoration.  Jon will be up for consideration if something were to happen to Rickon.  Jon is sworn to the NW but he is known for willing to break his oath.  Most people will have a big problem with that (as well as the stuff listed by Lord of the Crossing).  Peace isn't happening in the north because of this will.  It might better for everybody if that thing were to get lost.  And Jon is not interested in peace.  

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