Will someone follow Robb's will?

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

I understand the motivation here, and that Sansa thought fondly of Winterfell while she was in the Eyrie. However, as far as she knows, there are no other family members remaining, and that the Boltons now rule the north, operating out of Winterfell. Which Theon burned and sacked.

I can definitely imagine something like Sansa returning to the ancestral home in A Dream of Spring, however, as you say! I haven't been permitting myself to think that far ahead.

Great call! And more succinct than my explanation.

Now, we can all hope that Lord Snow (an honorable man) isn't actually dead, or at least isn't permanently dead.

You have far more self restraint than I.  This story has me constantly thinking ahead and back.  Your comments have my mind turning to Sansa's reaction to a will that disinherits her.  Gads.  

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Hmmm, I think some events beyond even LF's power to control will enfold in the Vale - cataclystic natural disaster stuff. Namely I suspect an avalanche will ruin the whole tournament, kill plenty of people, and damage the battlements of the Bloody Gate, to allow for an attack by the mountain clans. There's a plot functional reason why Royce isn't present at the tournament - so survivors can flock to Royce.

As for Shadrich, I don't think he's the moneylusting kidnapper for Cersei he pretended to be to Brienne. Imo he did that to test and warn Brienne to be more discrete, especially around those two "old, kind" hedgeknights she began to trust. Seems to have worked too, because she stole away in the night without warning them.

Pondering avalanches has already made my day!  

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Pondering avalanches has already made my day!  

Here's the gathered quotes for it. BTW take any speculations on who gets when killed or if they even get killed with grain of salt (I do too), but the avalanche and burned men attack is what I expect to occur:

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/11/16/the-trail-of-the-red-stallion-iii/

[Isobel Harper]

@sweetsunray if there's a possibility of an avalanche in 2020, it's almost a given. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 8/13/2020 at 2:28 PM, zandru said:

Travel is totally ridiculous. (Unless you're a Braavosi banker and gold is involved.)

Doesn't this also describe Littlefinger to some degree. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 8/11/2020 at 8:06 AM, Lord Lannister said:

As for the importance of the will, it really depends on what is there and how it is worded. Sansa seems certain to be disinherited. If the wording is simply Jon is legitimized and is my heir, then that would seem to trump Bran and Rickon's claims too. If it details the circumstances of their deaths, then maybe Jon would be seen as a Regent until the younger brothers come of age? Spirit of the document more than the letter there likely. 

If Robb is smart he wouldn't disinherit Sansa, he would just push her down the line. If he disinherited her and Tyrion died he would be screwing himself. 

[Lord Lannister]

46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Robb is smart he wouldn't disinherit Sansa, he would just push her down the line. If he disinherited her and Tyrion died he would be screwing himself. 

That's an interesting point. The devil is definitely in the details. If Robb went that route, by legitimizing Jon he'd be moving Jon up to the top of the line of succession rather than just putting him in it though and taking Sansa out. That'd have the unforeseen consequence of bumping Bran and Rickon down, though he thinks they are dead.

For that matter, Robb has every right to think Sansa's loyalty may be suspect. She wrote the letter telling Robb to bend the knee to Joffrey, she's been in Cersei's hands for at least a year, and she married Tyrion Lannister. 

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Robb is smart he wouldn't disinherit Sansa, he would just push her down the line. If he disinherited her and Tyrion died he would be screwing himself. 

As Lord Lannister has pointed out, Robb has reasons to doubt Sansa's loyalty to House Stark, but more importantly Robb recognizes that the Lannisters most of all need a child between Tyrion and Sansa. Once Sansa births a child - especially a son - both Tyrion and Sansa can die and a baby raised by Tywin himself could be declared Lord of WF, with Tywin or Jaime as regent and warden of the North. 

The risk of screwing himself over by retaining Sansa as heir (lower down the line) or by disinheriting her altogether is bigger in your proposal. And there's nothing keeping Robb's heir from deciding Sansa will be his heir after all.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

As Lord Lannister has pointed out, Robb has reasons to doubt Sansa's loyalty to House Stark, but more importantly Robb recognizes that the Lannisters most of all need a child between Tyrion and Sansa. Once Sansa births a child - especially a son - both Tyrion and Sansa can die and a baby raised by Tywin himself could be declared Lord of WF, with Tywin or Jaime as regent and warden of the North. 

The risk of screwing himself over by retaining Sansa as heir (lower down the line) or by disinheriting her altogether is bigger in your proposal. And there's nothing keeping Robb's heir from deciding Sansa will be his heir after all.

But if he could write this in any way he wants, to get the best outcome with the least risk, he should really be disinheriting any child of Lannister and Sansa's (AND Arya's!) husband(s). Not Sansa herself. Disinheriting her specifically, is overkill and just shoots himself jn the foot if she's the only Stark left. And, interestingly, he never says "We cant have Sansa ruling Winterfell" he says "We cant have Tyrion ruling Winterfell through Sansa."

(What he really cant plan for though, is a revelation that Jon isnt Ned's son). 

And there is nothing to suggest he suspects Sansa's loyalties are more Lannister now. Cat read between the lines of Sansa's letter and Robb doesnt object to her interpretation. He knows she's being coerced. They always, always describe her as a hostage!

[Lord Lannister]

33 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But if he could write this in any way he wants, to get the best outcome with the least risk, he should really be disinheriting any child of Lannister and Sansa's (AND Arya's!) husband(s). Not Sansa herself. Disinheriting her specifically, is overkill and just shoots himself jn the foot if she's the only Stark left. And, interestingly, he never says "We cant have Sansa ruling Winterfell" he says "We cant have Tyrion ruling Winterfell through Sansa."

(What he really cant plan for though, is a revelation that Jon isnt Ned's son). 

And there is nothing to suggest he suspects Sansa's loyalties are more Lannister now. Cat read between the lines of Sansa's letter and Robb doesnt object to her interpretation. He knows she's being coerced. They always, always describe her as a hostage!

They believe she's a hostage, that's fine. But she's demonstrated she can be coerced to act on behalf of her captors. That's not a chance Robb can afford to take. Robb can't reasonably predict every method of coercion to cite against it specifically. 

The more I think on this, the more it's just easier to make a clean cut. That removes her husband, her captors and any children she bears for the Lannisters out of the equation in the eyes of the North. 

If she's restored to liberty, she can be reinherited just as easily by Robb or Jon, who could be trusted to do what's right even at his own personal expense, or a future son. 

Regardless what's legal and what isn't is mostly going to be determined by who wins. Had Tywin's plans carried to their fullest and Tyrion got Sansa pregnant and became Lord of Winterfell I'm sure the rebel Robb Stark's will would be given all the importance of a piece of toilet paper. So long as Lannister might kept the northern lords in check at any rate.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

They believe she's a hostage, that's fine. But she's demonstrated she can be coerced to act on behalf of her captors. That's not a chance Robb can afford to take. Robb can't reasonably predict every method of coercion to cite against it specifically. 

The more I think on this, the more it's just easier to make a clean cut. That removes her husband, her captors and any children she bears for the Lannisters out of the equation in the eyes of the North. 

If she's restored to liberty, she can be reinherited just as easily by Robb or Jon, who could be trusted to do what's right even at his own personal expense, or a future son. 

Regardless what's legal and what isn't is mostly going to be determined by who wins. Had Tywin's plans carried to their fullest and Tyrion got Sansa pregnant and became Lord of Winterfell I'm sure the rebel Robb Stark's will would be given all the importance of a piece of toilet paper. So long as Lannister might kept the northern lords in check at any rate.

Disinheriting anyone in the line is risky because the person he pushes up in the succession (Jon) could die before he becomes king and is able to restore her. Wills should plan for sudden, untimely deaths. Sansa could be a spare, if he was explicit enough about what conditions that would be under as an option of last resort. But, I don't expect him to be a legal mastermind. Bran and Rickon aren't dead, the marriage isn't consummated, and Jon is "technically" last in line if he's a cousin. 

[Mon ami]

On 8/13/2020 at 6:07 PM, Tai Pan said:

Yes but the sentiment is worthless because the will does not carry the force of law.  Only a king can legitimize a bastard.  Robb was not a king.  He was a rebel, a lord and nothing more. 

The Will of Robb Stark will not have the support of the law but it still has value to some of the people of the North.  It will be enough for some of them to reconsider Jon's bastardry.  I am saying some only.  It will mean a great deal to Jon to become a Stark.  He can rest in peace in that knowledge. 

The Targaryens and the Starks have very loyal followings.  I would be fighting to put Dany on the throne of Westeros if I were a character in the story. 

[Lord Lannister]

42 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Disinheriting anyone in the line is risky because the person he pushes up in the succession (Jon) could die before he becomes king and is able to restore her. Wills should plan for sudden, untimely deaths. Sansa could be a spare, if he was explicit enough about what conditions that would be under as an option of last resort. But, I don't expect him to be a legal mastermind. Bran and Rickon aren't dead, the marriage isn't consummated, and Jon is "technically" last in line if he's a cousin. 

Well for the purposes of this conversation, Robb doesn't know Bran and Rickon are alive and that Jon isn't his half brother. But I don't see what harm disinheriting her does. If she's set at liberty, while Robb or his heir are alive, the inheritance order can be amended.  If Robb, Jon and anyone before Sansa are all killed then what's the point of having Sansa last in line to give legal validity the Northmen may accept to the Lannister claims to Winterfell? Or her children after her?

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well for the purposes of this conversation, Robb doesn't know Bran and Rickon are alive and that Jon isn't his half brother. But I don't see what harm disinheriting her does. If she's set at liberty, while Robb or his heir are alive, the inheritance order can be amended.  If Robb, Jon and anyone before Sansa are all killed then what's the point of having Sansa last in line to give legal validity the Northmen may accept to the Lannister claims to Winterfell? Or her children after her?

It depends on how he wrote it. If he says "Under no circumstances shall Sansa Stark inherit my kingdom or be Lady of Winterfell" it undercuts potential political support for her, if there is no other Stark to restore her or amend it. But if he writes that "In the event of no living heir, Sansa Stark shall inherit my kingdom, but not her children nor any other husband made while she is a hostage" it could be useful in terms of throwing political support to raise her as queen. There are factions in the North who don't recognize these arranged hostage marriages anyway (see: campaign to free Arya). But a sealed will from their former king? They'd listen to that. 

[Quoth the raven,]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:35 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

King?  Lord Robb Stark is a better and a more accurate title for the young wolf.  His rebellion was not successful.  The north is still one of the seven kingdoms of Westeros. 

Therefore Robb was not a king and did not have the authority to change Jon's status from bastard to true born.  

On 8/11/2020 at 5:35 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Someone will follow his will.  Those who do will accept him legitimized.  An equal number will not and hate him for what he did at the Wall.  He let Mance Rayder loose on them, tore apart the Night's Watch, deserted his post, and helped arranged the marriage of a Wildling to a noble woman.  It will cause a civil war in the north.  Some of the folks hold the Starks in high regard while others are ready to move on and stay on good terms with the king on the iron throne.  I am afraid it could make Jon Snow a real Stark and turn him into the illegal King of the North.  That would be bad for Westeros.  This is the time for everybody to work together instead of playing family feud.  We already know how bias Jon is towards the Starks.  This can only end badly. 

They may not care about the legality of the will.  Wildlings could care less about such things.  And if Mance has his way and sway, it will go very badly for the ruling families in the north.  We don't know what shape the survivor between Roose and Stannis will be.  If they are too weakened?  A chance for Mance to do some serious mischief in the north.  Jon can succeed Mance easily.  This is facilitated if the M + L = J theory is true.  

Jon will never be popular with the ruling families and they will hate him for creating the insult that becomes Lord Thenn.  The man who will now control the land which belonged to Alys.  Many, many people will have major problems with that.  But it won't matter if Mance becomes the new king of the north.  

Jon will always be a bastard in the eyes of the traditionalists.  But their days are numbered if Mance gets his way.  Jon is an idiot but Mance is not.  Mance is a real danger to the lords in the north.  The Boltons will have to lose for Jon to benefit from this paper from Robb.  

[Isobel Harper]

16 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Robb is smart he wouldn't disinherit Sansa, he would just push her down the line. If he disinherited her and Tyrion died he would be screwing himself. 

This!

I believe Robb made Sansa Shells Whent's heir.  The benefit of doing so is first and foremost to keep Sansa safe and still "valuable" to Tywin Lannister.  (Tywin had a toddler girl and infant boy killed, nothing stopping such a man from having Sansa killed.)

Benefits for having Sansa's heirs at Harrenhal: if her children were loyal to the Starks, they could be a powerful ally and diplomat, Harrenhal being the southernmost castle in the Riverlands.  If her children were more loyal to the Lannisters, they would still be subordinate to the Tullys at Riverrun, and Harrenhal being the southernmost castle, not in any advantageous position to invade the North.

[Lord Lannister]

18 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

This!

I believe Robb made Sansa Shells Whent's heir.  The benefit of doing so is first and foremost to keep Sansa safe and still "valuable" to Tywin Lannister.  (Tywin had a toddler girl and infant boy killed, nothing stopping such a man from having Sansa killed.)

Benefits for having Sansa's heirs at Harrenhal: if her children were loyal to the Starks, they could be a powerful ally and diplomat, Harrenhal being the southernmost castle in the Riverlands.  If her children were more loyal to the Lannisters, they would still be subordinate to the Tullys at Riverrun, and Harrenhal being the southernmost castle, not in any advantageous position to invade the North.

That's an interesting point about keeping Sansa "valuable" and one I didn't consider. Though given in Tywin's eyes Robb is a rebel, any decrees put forth by him wouldn't have any legal decree or at minimum would be subject to overrule by the Iron Throne. Joffrey/Tommen will declare Sansa heir to Winterfell regardless of what Robb does. Robb disinheriting her seems mainly to serve as something to keep the northern people from readily accepting a Lannister puppet. 

Depending on what the exact wording of the Will is, and if it's even distributed, this might have been one of Robb's better examples of long term political thinking.

[Seams]

Does Jon Snow also have a will?

"I plan to stop at Winterfell on the way south. If there is any message that you would like me to deliver …"

"Tell Robb that I'm going to command the Night's Watch and keep him safe, so he might as well take up needlework with the girls and have Mikken melt down his sword for horseshoes."

"Your brother is bigger than me," Tyrion said with a laugh. "I decline to deliver any message that might get me killed."

"Rickon will ask when I'm coming home. Try to explain where I've gone, if you can. Tell him he can have all my things while I'm away, he'll like that."

People seemed to be asking a great deal of him today, Tyrion Lannister thought. "You could put all this in a letter, you know."

"Rickon can't read yet. Bran …" He stopped suddenly. "I don't know what message to send to Bran. Help him, Tyrion."

"What help could I give him? I am no maester, to ease his pain. I have no spells to give him back his legs."

"You gave me help when I needed it," Jon Snow said.

"I gave you nothing," Tyrion said. "Words."

"Then give your words to Bran too."

"You're asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance," Tyrion said. "However sincere the lesson, the result is likely to be grotesque. Still, I know what it is to love a brother, Lord Snow. I will give Bran whatever small help is in my power."

(AGoT, Tyrion III)

[zandru]

55 minutes ago, Seams said:

Does Jon Snow also have a will?

Well, what does he have to bequeath? The Mormont sword presumably belongs to Bear Island. His other stuff is what he was given by the Night's Watch, and will revert back. Jon has no dependents. His entire family, as far as he knows, is dead (although that inexplicable appearance of Summer surprised him.)

[Springwatch]

If Robb decided to cut Sansa out the will because of Tyrion, I think he would also have cut out Arya (he has promised Arya in marriage to a very minor Frey.)