Will someone follow Robb's will?

[Seams]

17 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, what does he have to bequeath? The Mormont sword presumably belongs to Bear Island. His other stuff is what he was given by the Night's Watch, and will revert back. Jon has no dependents. His entire family, as far as he knows, is dead (although that inexplicable appearance of Summer surprised him.)

I guess I should have been clearer. I meant to imply that the quoted passage (in red) from AGoT constitutes a will of sorts, dictated by Jon to Tyrion.

One of the lines that has always intrigued me relates to the mysterious, creepy, four-year-old Rickon about whom we know so little: "Tell him he can have all my things while I'm away..." This indicates that Jon left behind some things that a little boy would want but also that there might be a finite end to the time that Jon Snow is away from Winterfell. If he saw his absence as permanent, wouldn't he just say, "He can have all my things" and leave it at that? And yet this follows his request that Tyrion try to explain to Rickon that Jon has joined the Night's Watch, which is a permanent commitment. Granted we have seen BenJen make a trip back to Winterfell without breaking his oath, but he was in a unique position to be an emissary to the King, requesting more support for the Night's Watch. As a bastard, Jon Snow is unlikely to be used as a high-level messenger in the same way.

Throughout the books, Jon often gives things to others or asks that someone take care of someone else. In ACoK, Jon finds the obsidian cache and gives arrowheads and spear points and dagger blades to his friends and to Mormont. As the "giver of dragonglass," is there a parallel between Jon Snow and Maester Luwin, who gives dragonglass to Bran and Rickon? Maybe this is part of the symbolic "will" we see in the quoted passage.

Jon gave the sword Needle to Arya. In the quoted passage, he jokingly suggests that Robb take up needlework and have his sword melted down for use as horse shoes. There's a whole lot of symbolism going on here - needles, melting, horses, shoes. If we could decipher the hidden meanings, we might see some foreshadowing about Robb's death and his eventual rebirth (ASOIAF characters rarely die without some kind of symbolic rebirth). Is the melting sword a hint about the future of the Stark sword Ice?

Jon also seems to be the heir of a strategic character: When Donal Noye dies in combat with a giant, Jon Snow takes over this room and takes stock of his few possessions. Recall that Noye was the smith who made Robert Baratheon's warhammer that was used to kill Rhaegar Targaryen. The inventory of Noye's possessions is very reminiscent of Dunk taking stock of the coins and chipped garnet; sword, armor and warhorse of Ser Arlan of Pennytree.

So Jon may be the beneficiary of Robb's will, but he also seems to make bequests and to receive bequests from Donal Noye. Any other symbolic wills in the series?

P.S. Jon's conversation with Tyrion reminds me of the Wizard's conversation with Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz movie, where he satisfies the wishes of the Tin Man, Cowardly Lion and Scarecrow, just before telling Dorothy how to use her ruby slippers to return home. I wonder whether this parallel is deliberate?

[Isobel Harper]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

I guess I should have been clearer. I meant to imply that the quoted passage (in red) from AGoT constitutes a will of sorts, dictated by Jon to Tyrion.

One of the lines that has always intrigued me relates to the mysterious, creepy, four-year-old Rickon about whom we know so little: "Tell him he can have all my things while I'm away..." This indicates that Jon left behind some things that a little boy would want but also that there might be a finite end to the time that Jon Snow is away from Winterfell. If he saw his absence as permanent, wouldn't he just say, "He can have all my things" and leave it at that? And yet this follows his request that Tyrion try to explain to Rickon that Jon has joined the Night's Watch, which is a permanent commitment. Granted we have seen BenJen make a trip back to Winterfell without breaking his oath, but he was in a unique position to be an emissary to the King, requesting more support for the Night's Watch. As a bastard, Jon Snow is unlikely to be used as a high-level messenger in the same way.

Throughout the books, Jon often gives things to others or asks that someone take care of someone else. In ACoK, Jon finds the obsidian cache and gives arrowheads and spear points and dagger blades to his friends and to Mormont. As the "giver of dragonglass," is there a parallel between Jon Snow and Maester Luwin, who gives dragonglass to Bran and Rickon? Maybe this is part of the symbolic "will" we see in the quoted passage.

Jon gave the sword Needle to Arya. In the quoted passage, he jokingly suggests that Robb take up needlework and have his sword melted down for use as horse shoes. There's a whole lot of symbolism going on here - needles, melting, horses, shoes. If we could decipher the hidden meanings, we might see some foreshadowing about Robb's death and his eventual rebirth (ASOIAF characters rarely die without some kind of symbolic rebirth). Is the melting sword a hint about the future of the Stark sword Ice?

Jon also seems to be the heir of a strategic character: When Donal Noye dies in combat with a giant, Jon Snow takes over this room and takes stock of his few possessions. Recall that Noye was the smith who made Robert Baratheon's warhammer that was used to kill Rhaegar Targaryen. The inventory of Noye's possessions is very reminiscent of Dunk taking stock of the coins and chipped garnet; sword, armor and warhorse of Ser Arlan of Pennytree.

So Jon may be the beneficiary of Robb's will, but he also seems to make bequests and to receive bequests from Donal Noye. Any other symbolic wills in the series?

P.S. Jon's conversation with Tyrion reminds me of the Wizard's conversation with Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz movie, where he satisfies the wishes of the Tin Man, Cowardly Lion and Scarecrow, just before telling Dorothy how to use her ruby slippers to return home. I wonder whether this parallel is deliberate?

RE: sewing and horseshoe

Quote

"I ruined that gown that Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don't sew so good." She chewed her lip. "I don't sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands."

 

Gendry hooted. "Those soft little things?" he called out. "You couldn't even hold a hammer."

Could just be a scene related in imagery.  Maybe also a hint that Arya will end up with one of the bifurcated Ice sword?

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 8/15/2020 at 1:55 PM, Isobel Harper said:

This!

I believe Robb made Sansa Shells Whent's heir.  The benefit of doing so is first and foremost to keep Sansa safe and still "valuable" to Tywin Lannister.  (Tywin had a toddler girl and infant boy killed, nothing stopping such a man from having Sansa killed.)

Benefits for having Sansa's heirs at Harrenhal: if her children were loyal to the Starks, they could be a powerful ally and diplomat, Harrenhal being the southernmost castle in the Riverlands.  If her children were more loyal to the Lannisters, they would still be subordinate to the Tullys at Riverrun, and Harrenhal being the southernmost castle, not in any advantageous position to invade the North.

Keeping Sansa valuable to stop Tywin from killing her is a good point. Robb and Tywin are playing a game of risk; Sansa's children could choose one side or the other. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 hours ago, Springwatch said:

If Robb decided to cut Sansa out the will because of Tyrion, I think he would also have cut out Arya (he has promised Arya in marriage to a very minor Frey.)

Yup, but we dont hear much about that in the discussions here...

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yup, but we dont hear much about that in the discussions here...

That's because Robb believed her to be dead already, and therefore didn't bother cutting her out of it.

[Seams]

On 8/15/2020 at 4:55 PM, Isobel Harper said:

to keep Sansa safe and still "valuable" to Tywin Lannister

I believe that Sansa has a value that transcends the usual marriage alliances entered into by the high-born. GRRM has an important back story about a bathing maiden and a wandering knight: we hear a little bit (but not all) about this story in the Florian and Jonquil references and in Brienne's Galladon of Morne legend. Maybe also in the Jenny of Oldstones / Duncan Targaryen story. Because the author is deliberately withholding some important points about Florian and Jonquil, we can't know precisely what happens, although a Sansa POV tells us that it has a sad ending. Based on what we do know, my best guess is that "possession" of a maiden is important to a person or family. As in Celtic legend (e.g., the Lady in the Lake), maidens may be sources of magical weapons. Or maybe the "magical weapon" takes on a symbolic quality that empowers a person or House engaged in a power struggle.

I don't think this contradicts your point at all, just adds a layer about Sansa's value as a hostage.

19 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

RE: sewing and horseshoe

Quote

"I ruined that gown that Lady Smallwood gave me, and I don't sew so good." She chewed her lip. "I don't sew very well, I mean. Septa Mordane used to say I had a blacksmith's hands."

 

Gendry hooted. "Those soft little things?" he called out. "You couldn't even hold a hammer."

Could just be a scene related in imagery.  Maybe also a hint that Arya will end up with one of the bifurcated Ice sword?

Excellent point. It seems significant that Donal Noye lost an arm (but somehow still managed to be a blacksmith). Here we see Arya talking about having a blacksmith's hands. We know that Septa Mordane meant that Arya was bad at sewing, but we also know that some characters in ASOIAF take off other people's finger's and hands: Joffrey threatening a singer, Stannis punishing the smuggler Davos (who loses his finger bones in the Blackwater), Ilyrio Mppatis keeping the hands of his dead wife, Vargo Hoat's men maiming Jaime Lannister.

There should probably be a thread in this forum to discuss symbolic smiths among the characters. For instance, does Khal Drogo become a symbolic smith when he melts gold to make a crown for Dany's brother Viserys? What does it mean that there is an inn called the Broken Anvil in King's Landing? The Iron Throne was made with dragon fire. Does that mean that dragons are also smiths? Aside from making things out of metal, what roles do smiths play in the story? Donal Noye has a key scene in teaching Jon to be kind and helpful to his Night's Watch brothers. Tobho Mott "raises" Gendry. Why is it relevant that Robb's crown is made by the smith at Riverrun?

[Isobel Harper]

25 minutes ago, Seams said:

I believe that Sansa has a value that transcends the usual marriage alliances entered into by the high-born. GRRM has an important back story about a bathing maiden and a wandering knight: we hear a little bit (but not all) about this story in the Florian and Jonquil references and in Brienne's Galladon of Morne legend. Maybe also in the Jenny of Oldstones / Duncan Targaryen story. Because the author is deliberately withholding some important points about Florian and Jonquil, we can't know precisely what happens, although a Sansa POV tells us that it has a sad ending. Based on what we do know, my best guess is that "possession" of a maiden is important to a person or family. As in Celtic legend (e.g., the Lady in the Lake), maidens may be sources of magical weapons. Or maybe the "magical weapon" takes on a symbolic quality that empowers a person or House engaged in a power struggle.

I don't think this contradicts your point at all, just adds a layer about Sansa's value as a hostage.

Excellent point. It seems significant that Donal Noye lost an arm (but somehow still managed to be a blacksmith). Here we see Arya talking about having a blacksmith's hands. We know that Septa Mordane meant that Arya was bad at sewing, but we also know that some characters in ASOIAF take off other people's finger's and hands: Joffrey threatening a singer, Stannis punishing the smuggler Davos (who loses his finger bones in the Blackwater), Ilyrio Mppatis keeping the hands of his dead wife, Vargo Hoat's men maiming Jaime Lannister.

There should probably be a thread in this forum to discuss symbolic smiths among the characters. For instance, does Khal Drogo become a symbolic smith when he melts gold to make a crown for Dany's brother Viserys? What does it mean that there is an inn called the Broken Anvil in King's Landing? The Iron Throne was made with dragon fire. Does that mean that dragons are also smiths? Aside from making things out of metal, what roles do smiths play in the story? Donal Noye has a key scene in teaching Jon to be kind and helpful to his Night's Watch brothers. Tobho Mott "raises" Gendry. Why is it relevant that Robb's crown is made by the smith at Riverrun?

If you were to start such a thread on Smiths, I'm game on chiming in.  

 

[Springwatch]

On 8/18/2020 at 1:58 PM, sweetsunray said:

That's because Robb believed her to be dead already, and therefore didn't bother cutting her out of it.

He can't know that.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He can't know that.

That's the explicit difference between belief and knowing. It doesn't matter what Robb knows or not, if he doesn't believe her to be alive.

[Springwatch]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's the explicit difference between belief and knowing. It doesn't matter what Robb knows or not, if he doesn't believe her to be alive.

Belief is a fuzzy word. Perhaps Robb does not allow himself to hope, because hope hurts, but it does matter what he knows, because he knows that Arya went missing and a body was not found. Wills are about what you know, not what you feel.

[sweetsunray]

36 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Belief is a fuzzy word. Perhaps Robb does not allow himself to hope, because hope hurts, but it does matter what he knows, because he knows that Arya went missing and a body was not found. Wills are about what you know, not what you feel.

He knows that the Lannisters pretended to have Arya, however there is no account corroborating this. He knows Arya has not been seen or heard of since Ned's death. And he considers her dead.

 

Quote

 

"So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa . . . your own sister, trueborn . . ."

". . . and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father's head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya's gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they'll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice."

 

 

Robb is wrong to believe her dead of course, but it doesn't matter for the will he draws up. Robb believes that the Lannisters got Arya killed, and are pretending she's alive and in their possession still, and that they intend to kill Sansa as soon as she delivers a child by Tyrion. This is why he explicitly would cut out Sansa from being his heir, and has no incentive to cut out Arya.

[Springwatch]

57 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Robb is wrong to believe her dead of course, but it doesn't matter for the will he draws up. Robb believes that the Lannisters got Arya killed, and are pretending she's alive and in their possession still, and that they intend to kill Sansa as soon as she delivers a child by Tyrion. This is why he explicitly would cut out Sansa from being his heir, and has no incentive to cut out Arya.

Poor Robb. Still, he takes the formalities of the will seriously - witnessed and signed by his lords. I assume therefore the writing of it was also taken seriously, and not done secretly from his advisors (why would it be?) It is not true that they and everyone else know Arya is dead, because that is unknowable. Cat hasn't given up on Arya. And it appears the Freys haven't given up on her either (until they were 'betrayed').

So I don't believe Arya was forgotten. I also believe Robb would be just as keen to keep the Freys out of Winterfell as the Lannisters.

It is possible though that both sisters were not forgotten, but believed to be too far down the line of succession to be an issue. Robb was young and in good health, hoping a son would arrive very soon. Jon was also young and in good health, with the possibility of marriage and sons. Problem sorted.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Poor Robb. Still, he takes the formalities of the will seriously - witnessed and signed by his lords. I assume therefore the writing of it was also taken seriously, and not done secretly from his advisors (why would it be?) It is not true that they and everyone else know Arya is dead, because that is unknowable. Cat hasn't given up on Arya. And it appears the Freys haven't given up on her either (until they were 'betrayed').

So I don't believe Arya was forgotten. I also believe Robb would be just as keen to keep the Freys out of Winterfell as the Lannisters.

Nobody is saying that Robb did not write the will formally. He did nothing secretly to his advizor. He informed her. Listened to her, and then told her - I'm king and it's my decision. And the logical formal writing of the will is to exclude Sansa and her children from the inheritance, legalize Jon and name him his heir, and not mention anyone else presumed dead.

LS hasn't given up on Arya, because she was found by the BwB who actually had Arya in their possession shortly before Robb has his convo with Catelyn. LS has information to knwo that Robb's belief was wrong. And she and the BwB make an effort in finding her and creating an opportunity for her to show up and be recognized (the orphan's inn with Gendry as identifier) at the same inn where she was last seen killing a guy while in the company of the Hound. 

Quote

It is possible though that both sisters were not forgotten, but believed to be too far down the line of succession to be an issue. Robb was young and in good health, hoping a son would arrive very soon. Jon was also young and in good health, with the possibility of marriage and sons. Problem sorted.

This may be true for Arya, but it certainly is not true for Sansa that Robb "beleived her too far down the line of succession to be an issue". Robb is explicitly aware that Sansa comes after him, now that Bran and Rickon are "dead", and he is explictly making an issue of it. Robb was young and in good health, but nevertheless he was making sure that he wrote a will before heading into the Twins and start to take on the Ironborn.

Anything is "possible" as long as you ignore the book's text.

[Springwatch]

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Anything is "possible" as long as you ignore the book's text.

What am I ignoring? Rob didn't want a bunch of Lannisters running Winterfell? That's a fact.  And he didn't want a bunch of Freys either. He's met them.

My thought was that any advisor worth his salt would point out that Arya is not in fact known to be dead. If she turns up, then excluding the Lannisters from Winterfell just lets in the Freys. Not what Robb wants.

So - just my personal view, but I think Jon was the solution to the problem of the girls' marriages. Disinheritance not necessary.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

What am I ignoring? Rob didn't want a bunch of Lannisters running Winterfell? That's a fact.  And he didn't want a bunch of Freys either. He's met them.

My thought was that any advisor worth his salt would point out that Arya is not in fact known to be dead. If she turns up, then excluding the Lannisters from Winterfell just lets in the Freys. Not what Robb wants.

So - just my personal view, but I think Jon was the solution to the problem of the girls' marriages. Disinheritance not necessary.

The way we are shown the will and its signing very much suggests that Robb wrote it by himself and presented it to everyone ready to be signed. Also interesting is that he specifically talks about Sansa being married to Tyrion, he talks about Bran and Rickon being dead, but he never mentions Arya. 
Another point that shouldn’t be left out is that there’s a huge difference between Sansa and Arya here... the former is married to an enemy, the latter is promised to an ally (at that point).

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What am I ignoring? Rob didn't want a bunch of Lannisters running Winterfell? That's a fact.  And he didn't want a bunch of Freys either. He's met them.

My thought was that any advisor worth his salt would point out that Arya is not in fact known to be dead. If she turns up, then excluding the Lannisters from Winterfell just lets in the Freys. Not what Robb wants.

So - just my personal view, but I think Jon was the solution to the problem of the girls' marriages. Disinheritance not necessary.

You claim "it is possible he thought his sisters (including Sansa) are too far down the line of succession. No it's not possible, because he explicitly says that if he dies, Sansa is his heir. That's ignoring the text. And he's smart enough to know that keeping Sansa as a possible heir to Winterfell AFTER Jon, especially if he believes everyone else but Jon and Sansa are dead, the Lannisters will do everything in their power to negate Jon as lawful heir of Robb - either using his vows to the NW or potentially using Sansa's kid to divide the North to choose between Jon and Sansa.

Robb recognized that the Lannisters will use Sansa or her child from Tyrion to claim Winterfell and therefore as a precaution he has to cut her and her line from inheriting, and make it quite clear who his heir is supposed to be, since it was the whole mess of the Baratheon brothers and Balon's heir that gives him the idea to draw up a will in the first place: Robb does not want any division amongst the Northerners about his heir and he certainly does not want an enemy to get their paws on WF through a marriage with Sansa. And that makes a disinheritance necessary from Robb's POV.

Cat was worth her salt and brought up Arya, and Robb basically called his mother a fool for not believing Arya to be dead. But yeah, keep ignoring the text.

As for the Freys: he fought alongside with Freys and has Freys as his squires and guards, Freys he actually respected and had a type of relation with that prompted the Freys to keep several of them away from the Red Wedding, knowing their loyalty lay with Robb. So, your argument about "he does not want Freys into Winterfell" is a complete fabrication on your part, nor the issue. He believes Arya to be dead, and the Freys did not renegotiate an engagement for a Frey-Arya marriage. The betrothal between Elmar Frey and Arya Stark is over and done with. You can check out the text in the books for that: 

Quote

Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

"What's wrong?" Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."  (aCoK, Arya X)

So, when Robb considers his will, discusses his intentions with Cat and draws it up, "Robb not wanting Freys to get their hands on WF via Arya" is a non-issue. There's no engagement anymore.

[Springwatch]

23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The way we are shown the will and its signing very much suggests that Robb wrote it by himself and presented it to everyone ready to be signed.

I feel the other way about this one. Robb's attitude to the will was serious and formal - he wanted it to stick. A secretly made will with a surprise bastard/night-watchman heir (ahead of legitimate daughters) might not stick - the lords might not sign, or if they signed blind, they might reject Jon later. They do love their Starks. (So does Jon! Winterfell belongs to my sister.) So I think Robb made sure the lords were ok with the contents of the will in advance. Only Cat had to be trapped

Quote

Also interesting is that he specifically talks about Sansa being married to Tyrion, he talks about Bran and Rickon being dead, but he never mentions Arya. 

As above, I think he consulted more people than just Cat. More conversations. Arya would be thought of.

Quote

Another point that shouldn’t be left out is that there’s a huge difference between Sansa and Arya here... the former is married to an enemy, the latter is promised to an ally (at that point).

But a Frey dynasty to be Lords of Winterfell? No way. Besides, the Freys are known to be bad allies: they failed to support the liege lords when Riverrun called its banners; and they took a heavy toll from Robb just cross their wretched bridge. No friends, these.

ETA

(More on this in next post.)

[Springwatch]

21 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You claim "it is possible he thought his sisters (including Sansa) are too far down the line of succession. No it's not possible, because he explicitly says that if he dies, Sansa is his heir. That's ignoring the text.

No. But you are ignoring me. I said the Lannister marriage was the problem, and Jon was the solution. Robb was having sex with Jeyne twice a day; he expected to have heirs very soon. Jon was the spare. The chances of Robb dying without heirs, and King Jon dying without heirs seemed very small. Therefore, Sansa has moved to far down the line of succession to be a threat.

Quote

And he's smart enough to know that keeping Sansa as a possible heir to Winterfell AFTER Jon, especially if he believes everyone else but Jon and Sansa are dead, the Lannisters will do everything in their power to negate Jon as lawful heir of Robb - either using his vows to the NW or potentially using Sansa's kid to divide the North to choose between Jon and Sansa.

The Lannisters will do that anyway. They don't recognise the King in the North, or his will.

Besides, Sansa's claim - her appeal to northerners - isn't based on a piece of paper, it's because she is a Stark of Winterfell. Power lies where people think it does.

Quote

Robb recognized that the Lannisters will use Sansa or her child from Tyrion to claim Winterfell and therefore as a precaution he has to cut her and her line from inheriting, and make it quite clear who his heir is supposed to be, since it was the whole mess of the Baratheon brothers and Balon's heir that gives him the idea to draw up a will in the first place: Robb does not want any division amongst the Northerners about his heir and he certainly does not want an enemy to get their paws on WF through a marriage with Sansa. And that makes a disinheritance necessary from Robb's POV.

To avoid repeating myself, I'll just say I don't agree with you.

Quote

Cat was worth her salt and brought up Arya, and Robb basically called his mother a fool for not believing Arya to be dead. But yeah, keep ignoring the text.

Cat is not often a fool, but on this occasion she had no time to think, and was proposing Arya as Robb's heir: Arya who is missing, probably dead, may never be found, a girl child, and engaged to a Frey. Robb slapped the idea down.

Again - Robb knows perfectly well that Arya is missing, not confirmed dead. He is giving Cat an opinion, a feeling, a judgment call. It's not even a universal opinion - Cat, Lannisters and Freys are more interested in the possiblities of Arya alive. So, yes, Arya is a problem in the succession: maybe dead, maybe alive, maybe married, maybe not, maybe never found. Making Jon his heir bypasses all these unknowns. It also effectively cuts out Sansa. Problems solved.

Quote

As for the Freys: he fought alongside with Freys and has Freys as his squires and guards, Freys he actually respected and had a type of relation with that prompted the Freys to keep several of them away from the Red Wedding, knowing their loyalty lay with Robb. So, your argument about "he does not want Freys into Winterfell" is a complete fabrication on your part, nor the issue.

So he's met some good Freys. What about the leadership?

Freys are notoriously bad allies. They arrived at the Trident after the battle ended - there were suspicions that they waited to choose the winning side. Again in AGOT, when Riverrun called the banners, the Freys hung back. And again in this advice to Robb from Stevron, "Wait, let these two kings play their game of thrones. When they are done fighting, we can bend our knees to the victor, or oppose him, as we choose...."

Cat's counsel to Robb was that Hoster never trusted Lord Walder, and nor should he; and that the Freys for six hundred years have never failed to take their toll at the crossing. Friends to no-one, in other words. When Robb finally arrived, he had to sell his sister to cross. Believe me, he doesn't like them. Actually, no-one likes them, or they wouldn't be called weasels all the time.

Quote

He believes Arya to be dead, and the Freys did not renegotiate an engagement for a Frey-Arya marriage. The betrothal between Elmar Frey and Arya Stark is over and done with. You can check out the text in the books for that:

Quote

Elmar was sitting on the steps outside, alone.

"What's wrong?" Arya asked him when she saw the tears shining on his cheeks.

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."  (aCoK, Arya X)

So, when Robb considers his will, discusses his intentions with Cat and draws it up, "Robb not wanting Freys to get their hands on WF via Arya" is a non-issue. There's no engagement anymore.

Are you trolling me? The whole pitch for the Red Wedding was to repair the Frey-Stark treaty. Edmure substitutes for Robb, and the alliance is back on the road, as good as new. What would be the point in all this of telling Robb that Elmar won't be marrying Arya?

[sweetsunray]

40 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

No. But you are ignoring me. I said the Lannister marriage was the problem, and Jon was the solution. Robb was having sex with Jeyne twice a day; he expected to have heirs very soon. Jon was the spare. The chances of Robb dying without heirs, and King Jon dying without heirs seemed very small. Therefore, Sansa has moved to far down the line of succession to be a threat.

Yeah, I'm ignoring your nonsensial "what ifs". It didn't seem small enough for Robb: he wrote a will, something none of the other kings of the war of 5 kings thought to do, despite being far far older. You're downplaying this fact to keep touting that Sansa was far down the line to his mind. She was not. He wrote that will for his present situation, in case he ended up dying BEFORE fathering an heir. He didn't write a will to be of use in 20 years. He wrote it in case he died between writing the will and hopefully getting WF back. He wrote a will to have clarity if he were to fall and break his neck on his way to the Twins so to speak. At that point, he has no heir yet, nor does Jon, and so Sansa comes next in line right after Jon.

46 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The Lannisters will do that anyway. They don't recognise the King in the North, or his will.

Besides, Sansa's claim - her appeal to northerners - isn't based on a piece of paper, it's because she is a Stark of Winterfell. Power lies where people think it does.

Sure the Lannisters will do that anyway, but the North would know not to gather behind Lannister's pick, as Robb cut her out of the will. The Lannisters cannot divide the North between two Starks, if Robb made it quite clear that he wants Jon as his heir and cuts out Sansa out of the line of inheritance.

49 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

To avoid repeating myself, I'll just say I don't agree with you.

Yeah, we know that. But you just denying story and text, and believe in your own fanfic. 

50 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Again - Robb knows perfectly well that Arya is missing, not confirmed dead. He is giving Cat an opinion, a feeling, a judgment call. It's not even a universal opinion - Cat, Lannisters and Freys are more interested in the possiblities of Arya alive. So, yes, Arya is a problem in the succession: maybe dead, maybe alive, maybe married, maybe not, maybe never found.

It doesn't matter whether her death is unconfirmed, or whether Cat, Lannisters or even the Freys believe her to be just missing. What matters is what the author of the will, Robb, believes. We know what he believes. He believes she's dead, hence she cannot ever be a problem to the succession in his mind.

BTW the Freys show no interest in the possibility of Arya being alive whatsoever. They never renegotiated an engagement for Arya with Robb, and afterwards they believe Arya was wedded to Ramsay Bolton, and they show no intention whatsoever to get her for themselves. Again, you're just making stuff up to argue something that is a figment of your imagination.

57 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Believe me, he doesn't like them.

I don't believe someone's opinion when it's something they make up while ignoring book text.

58 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Actually, no-one likes them, or they wouldn't be called weasels all the time.

They call them that after the Red Wedding.

You forgot these quotes

 

Quote

 

"Who better to treat with Balon Greyjoy than his son?"

"Jason Mallister," offered Catelyn. "Tytos Blackwood. Stevron Frey. Anyone . . . but not Theon." (aCoK, Cat 1)

 

 Cat advized Robb to send Stevron Frey as envoy to treat with Balon Greyjoy.

And Edmure began to think highly of the Freys as well.

 

Quote

 

"Edmure, Robb left those men to hold the Twins and make certain Lord Walder keeps faith with us."

"He has," Edmure said stubbornly. "The Freys fought bravely in the Whispering Wood, and old Ser Stevron died at Oxcross, we hear. Ser Ryman and Black Walder and the rest are with Robb in the west, Martyn has been of great service scouting, and Ser Perwyn helped see you safe to Renly. (aCoK, Cat V)

 

Robb shook his head. "With Ser Stevron, I might have been able to make amends, but Ser Ryman is dull-witted as a stone, and Black Walder . . . that one was not named for the color of his beard, I promise you. He went so far as to say that his sisters would not be loath to wed a widower. I would have killed him for that if Jeyne had not begged me to be merciful."

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me, and Olyvar was as loyal a squire as any king could want. He asked to stay with me, but Ser Ryman took him with the rest. All their strength. The Greatjon urged me to attack them . . ." (aSoS, Cat II)

 

 

Robb never snubs them for being weasels. He can differentiate the qualitive men from the others. The sole way in which he makes a general disparaging comment about the Freys is

 

Quote

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They're an ancient line, descended from the First Men. The Kings of the Rock sometimes wed Westerlings before the Conquest, and there was another Jeyne Westerling who was queen to King Maegor three hundred years ago."

And that makes Robb a snob, but most likely because it's the sole thing he can use in defense of his foolish choice in Jeyne Westerling

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Are you trolling me? The whole pitch for the Red Wedding was to repair the Frey-Stark treaty. Edmure substitutes for Robb, and the alliance is back on the road, as good as new. What would be the point in all this of telling Robb that Elmar won't be marrying Arya?

It's not trolling. It's actual text from the book. When Robb wed Jeyne, the engagement with Arya was over and done with. And it was NOT brought up again by the Freys as a demand for Robb to make amends. There is no engagement for Arya with Elmar Frey anymore. Nor did the Freys desire it. The reasons why they didn't even negotiate for it was

1. They intended to kill Robb anyway
2. Robb didn't have Arya and wouldn't acquire her before his death
3. Arya was either dead or in the hands of the Lannisters

And see, the Freys didn't even bother to ask Tywin for Arya. They didn't want the North or Winterfell, because it was burned down. Walder Frey has a daughter wed to the upcoming new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton, and he has Roslin wed to Edmure Frey, an heir for Riverrun, and a son wed to Tywin's sister who get Riverrun. Walder Frey set his sights on a Frey becoming LP of the Riverlands. Tywin foiled him in that ambition, only giving the Freys the castle, but not the title.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Winterfell belongs to my sister.

Right.

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”
“Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”