Will someone follow Robb's will?

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

On 8/12/2020 at 6:18 PM, zandru said:

("Kill one man at dinner", says Tywin -- Walder had some 10,000 or more killed, Robb's entire army.) 

 

Robb had about 3500 at the twins. not 10,000

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

On 8/13/2020 at 4:07 PM, Tai Pan said:

Yes but the sentiment is worthless because the will does not carry the force of law.  Only a king can legitimize a bastard.  Robb was not a king.  He was a rebel, a lord and nothing more. 

Robb was a king. he was recognized as one by the regions that supported him. he had the authority of a king because he was one.

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

On 8/14/2020 at 10:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Robb is smart he wouldn't disinherit Sansa, he would just push her down the line. If he disinherited her and Tyrion died he would be screwing himself. 

No. disinheriting Sansa is the smart move. it prevents any dynastic takeover through blood. pushing her down the line only delays the inevitable of a problem he is trying to fix. he needs an heir. Sansa by law is his  heir as his other siblings are all dead to his knowledge. the whole purpose of the will was to remove her from the line of succession because of her marriage. in a way he has written her off as dead. he does not see getting Sansa back as a possibility.  He declares an heir but whom he chose is not yet known to the readers.

 

[Mystical]

On 8/21/2020 at 1:22 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Right.

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”
“Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”

 

Except Stannis knows perfectly well that she is still Lady STARK. The Lannisters can't claim the North through her if she no longer has the Stark name. We all know Stannis only called her Lannister to convince Jon, not because her name is actually Lannister.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Mystical said:

Except Stannis knows perfectly well that she is still Lady STARK. The Lannisters can't claim the North through her if she no longer has the Stark name. We all know Stannis only called her Lannister to convince Jon, not because her name is actually Lannister.

Sure. He’s being sarcastic, and reminding Jon that Sansa is married to Tyrion. 

[Springwatch]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:22 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Right.

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”
“Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”

Yeah. Stannis is not Snow, though.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah. Stannis is not Snow, though.

That’s not the point. The point is that everyone and their dogs know that Sansa is married to Tyrion Lannister. The point is that even if Robb didn’t disinherit her, and even if Jon dies, the north would not accept her while she’s married to Tyrion. 

[Springwatch]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

Yeah, I'm ignoring your nonsensial "what ifs". It didn't seem small enough for Robb: he wrote a will, something none of the other kings of the war of 5 kings thought to do, despite being far far older. You're downplaying this fact to keep touting that Sansa was far down the line to his mind. She was not.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Of course I didn't claim Sansa was down the line of succession before the will. She was his next heir.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

He wrote that will for his present situation, in case he ended up dying BEFORE fathering an heir. He didn't write a will to be of use in 20 years. He wrote it in case he died between writing the will and hopefully getting WF back. He wrote a will to have clarity if he were to fall and break his neck on his way to the Twins so to speak. At that point, he has no heir yet, nor does Jon, and so Sansa comes next in line right after Jon.

If he dies, the will will have to cover eternity; he doesn't get a second chance. Though I doubt Robb feels at much risk of an early death. He has strong fighters defending him, including Grey Wind. Fate is turning in his favour: The Freys are back; Victarion is gone; and the crannogmen will give him the winning edge at Moat Caillin. There's a good chance Jeyne is pregnant - she has had lots of sex and fertility potions. Making Jon his interim heir makes it extremely unlikely Sansa or even Arya could inherit. If Jon feels at risk, then he can name an heir himself.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

Sure the Lannisters will do that anyway, but the North would know not to gather behind Lannister's pick, as Robb cut her out of the will. The Lannisters cannot divide the North between two Starks, if Robb made it quite clear that he wants Jon as his heir and cuts out Sansa out of the line of inheritance.

Wills aren't 100% reliable. Ask Ned. Anyway, the Northerners are already perfectly capable of recognising the family that killed their lord. And conspiring against a ruler they don't like.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

Yeah, we know that. But you just denying story and text, and believe in your own fanfic. 

You're pretty rude, you know?

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

It doesn't matter whether her death is unconfirmed, or whether Cat, Lannisters or even the Freys believe her to be just missing. What matters is what the author of the will, Robb, believes. We know what he believes. He believes she's dead, hence she cannot ever be a problem to the succession in his mind.

Back to belief, and knowledge. You can have both: I believe I have enough fuel in my car to drive home, but I fill it up anyway, because I don't have complete knowledge. So with Robb; he hasn't forgotten what he knows: "Father's dead, and Bran and Rickon, maybe Arya."

And yes, a missing, dead Arya would be a problem in the succession, if other people thought she could be alive. Robb had his lords and advisors to remind him if he needed it - we know he is talking to them because Cat sees it in their faces when Robb orders her to Seaguard. They already knew.

(have to go; more next post)

[Springwatch]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s not the point. The point is that everyone and their dogs know that Sansa is married to Tyrion Lannister. The point is that even if Robb didn’t disinherit her, and even if Jon dies, the north would not accept her while she’s married to Tyrion. 

No problem then.

[zandru]

On 8/19/2020 at 3:49 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Another point that shouldn’t be left out is that there’s a huge difference between Sansa and Arya here... the former is married to an enemy, the latter is promised to an ally (at that point).

No, Arya is NOT "promised" to a Frey at that point. Remember, Arya was at Harrenhall and was a kind of friend with Elmar Frey, to whom she had been "promised". She comes across him when he's complaining that the wedding with "his princess" is now off. This would have been after King Robb reveals that he's married Jeyne and the whole agreement falls apart. Robb knows the initial agreement is now moot. Clearly, it's also before the loathesome display of Frey hospitality, aided and abetted by Roose Bolton, who is then at Harrenhall, too, and being served by Arya.

In short, Arya's betrothal to House Frey is a dead letter. No risk of having the Trolls of the Crossing getting their dirty paws on her. Robb could potentially name her in his will without fear. (Don't know whether he did, but Arya's potential marriage to a Frey would not be a concern.)

[zandru]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The point is that even if Robb didn’t disinherit her, and even if Jon dies, the north would not accept her while she’s married to Tyrion. 

And yet, the Lannisters would not hesitate to press their claim, if they had to kill every last Northman. That's Tywin for ya. And there are lots and lots of Lannisters, apparently all scheming and greedy, like their namesake. So I agree, Sansa had to be explicitly disinherited.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

No, Arya is NOT "promised" to a Frey at that point. Remember, Arya was at Harrenhall and was a kind of friend with Elmar Frey, to whom she had been "promised". She comes across him when he's complaining that the wedding with "his princess" is now off. This would have been after King Robb reveals that he's married Jeyne and the whole agreement falls apart. Robb knows the initial agreement is now moot. Clearly, it's also before the loathesome display of Frey hospitality, aided and abetted by Roose Bolton, who is then at Harrenhall, too, and being served by Arya.

In short, Arya's betrothal to House Frey is a dead letter. No risk of having the Trolls of the Crossing getting their dirty paws on her. Robb could potentially name her in his will without fear. (Don't know whether he did, but Arya's potential marriage to a Frey would not be a concern.)

Yeah, I got mixed up w/ the timeline when I posted that and only realised it once I saw @sweetsunray’s post below mine. I’ll say that not only the point I was making remains, but gets even stronger w/ Arya’s betrothal going out the window.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, zandru said:

And yet, the Lannisters would not hesitate to press their claim, if they had to kill every last Northman. That's Tywin for ya. And there are lots and lots of Lannisters, apparently all scheming and greedy, like their namesake. So I agree, Sansa had to be explicitly disinherited.

Oh I have no doubts Tywin would kill every man, woman, child, and direwolf to get what he wants. That said, the situation wouldn’t be too different from what we have. Sansa and Tyrion in Winterfell instead of Roose, Ramsay, and fArya, and most every northerner plotting against them. 

[Springwatch]

Ok, the Freys.

We could do all this without Freys you know? As far as Robb knows, Arya is a defenceless child, vulnerable to forced marriage with anyone.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

BTW the Freys show no interest in the possibility of Arya being alive whatsoever. They never renegotiated an engagement for Arya with Robb, and afterwards they believe Arya was wedded to Ramsay Bolton, and they show no intention whatsoever to get her for themselves. Again, you're just making stuff up to argue something that is a figment of your imagination.

I can't believe you accuse me of fabrication. We know nothing of what the Freys said in negotiations.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

I don't believe someone's opinion when it's something they make up while ignoring book text.

I gave you quotes. And you gave me one:  "With Ser Stevron, I might have been able to make amends, but Ser Ryman is dull-witted as a stone, and Black Walder . . . that one was not named for the color of his beard, I promise you. He went so far as to say that his sisters would not be loath to wed a widower. I would have killed him for that if Jeyne had not begged me to be merciful."

Black Walder threatened to murder Jeyne! And he is the son of Ryman, the Frey heir. This is the Frey leadership I was talking about.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

They call them that after the Red Wedding.

And before that, they still looked like weasels, and had a reputation for mean behaviour.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

You forgot these quotes

 Cat advized Robb to send Stevron Frey as envoy to treat with Balon Greyjoy.

And Edmure began to think highly of the Freys as well

 

Robb never snubs them for being weasels. He can differentiate the qualitive men from the others. The sole way in which he makes a general disparaging comment about the Freys is

 

And that makes Robb a snob, but most likely because it's the sole thing he can use in defense of his foolish choice in Jeyne Westerling

1. Anyone but Theon
2. He can won't have any choice in the matter in the event that the Freys have hold of Arya when she inherits.
3. He's an aristocrat in an aristocracy. Wrong, but also real.

(got to go again. Will finish off this evening.)

[zandru]

43 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

We could do all this without Freys you know?

Amen, sister! In all the centuries that the Evil Troll-Weasel Family has controlled their big bridge across the Trident, exacting killing fares from all who would cross ... why has nobody thought of building additional bridges, either to compete or as publicly-run facilities? Westeros is dying for some good infrastructure projects. I know, I know ... that's something those savages in The North are into; in the Southron kingdoms, all the tax money goes for gowns, tourneys, and fancy armor. You wouldn't believe the price of destriers these days!

To be honest, I'm hoping that the Freys will have had their day and be replaced from their "lordly" positions by the end of this story. Perhaps a bloodbath, much like the one they carried out on the Northern army, would be appropriate, but I'm also open to banishment, or stripping them of all lands, castles, and titles would be appropriate.

Perhaps Arya might even have a hand in this, now that she's beginning to realize that Chekhov's Wolfpack is potentially under her control.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

You're being deliberately obtuse. Of course I didn't claim Sansa was down the line of succession before the will. She was his next heir.

I'm not obtuse, and I didn't say you claimed it before the discussion about the will. But either you fail to understand the complete context of Robb's words or you are delibetarely downplaying it, when you keep telling yourself and us this mindtrick "that if Robb legalized Jon, Sansa would be far enough down the line for Robb to feel secure that the Lannisters wouldn't be able to lay claim on Winterfell".

People who argue over the will's content are those who do not want Jon to be named heir by Robb and/or who want Sansa to be Queen/Lady Stark of Winterfell, and finally some readers who are into "George will surprise us!". The fact that you simultaneously argue that Sansa wouldn't be disinherited, but if she was that Robb did the same for Arya imo points to the "I wish Sansa wasn't disinherited" mindset,  and bringing in the Freys and Arya seems a response born from the book rivalry between the two sisters in the first book.

But basically your argument boils down to this: well Robb could have changed his mind after talking to Cat, or he didn't mean it as heavy and harshly as he voiced his beliefs and opinions to his mother. And it is the latter I have an issue with. You're downplaying the significance and gravity of that conversation. To me that's because you don't like the implications of that conversation, wish to forget it asap, and that it never happened. It did happen, so the sole way to circumvent it is by "he saw the light after the convo" arguments. 

I do not believe that George writes a scene where a young man  - who never confronted his mother about her interactions and ill feelings over Jon before in his life, even though he showed in aGoT that his sympathies were with Jon - informs his mother that he's going to make the half brother she hates his heir, that her eldest daughter cannot be in his line of heirs because of her marriage to Tyrion, and that he is convinced that her other daughter is dead just to fool the reader, or to have him change his mind off-page later. From a character growth perspective, this is the heaviest conversation that Robb has ever had with anyone, let alone his mother, and aside from seeing Robb murdered before her very own eyes, Robb's words cut and cut and cut the deepest. Cat is completely knocked of her feet after this, mentally beaten morose.

It doesn't matter to me much whether Robb had this debate with Cat prior to drawing up the will, or he would have had it during the writing and signing of the will, or after the fact. The conversation itself is such a heavy topic, for both characters involved, that it makes it quire clear to me that Robb's mind was made up and he didn't change his mind. He felt a real high need to have it drawn as he wanted it drawn to provoke him into having the dreaded talk with his mother, and it should not be swept under the carpet with "Oh, but he believed Jeyne might be pregnant, and he could believe Jon would have many children still." No, just no. In less than 2 years, Robb's father died, and he has learned that his 2 male heirs after him - whom he believed to be safe and playing at Winterfell - are dead. He was so grief stricken from the news he fucked and ended up marrying Jeyne Westerling. And he admitted to Cat that he should have exchanged Jaime for his sisters. All this shows that while initially Robb believed he could take risks and had time to force the Lannisters to give back his sisters and form alliances, he now is a young man realizing that even for the very young time is a fickle thing, and not just for himself. Sure, he still has the positive belief that he can turn things around, but he's facing his own possible mortality and that of his siblings, and the existential survival of his house. If he just had 2 male heirs die on him in one fell swoop, then arguing that Sansa being after Jon is far enough down the line sounds like telling yourself fairytales about Robb's grounded mental state when he drew up the will and had it signed.

This is imo the gravity and significance that you're sweeping under the carpet. And I consider such an insult to George's masterful writing of a character driven conversation between a mother and son in the penultimate phase of their relation, before both die at the Red Wedding in a heart wrenching chapter. Ultimately this conversation and the will isn't about what's fair to Sansa, or to Arya or to Jon, but about Cat's eldest son telling her that her worst nightmare is coming true. And to dismiss its significance by denying its full consequence in the hope to promote your preferred Stark's chance at inheriting leaves me with a bitter taste.

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I gave you quotes. And you gave me one:  "With Ser Stevron, I might have been able to make amends, but Ser Ryman is dull-witted as a stone, and Black Walder . . . that one was not named for the color of his beard, I promise you. He went so far as to say that his sisters would not be loath to wed a widower. I would have killed him for that if Jeyne had not begged me to be merciful."

Black Walder threatened to murder Jeyne! And he is the son of Ryman, the Frey heir. This is the Frey leadership I was talking about.

I gave you more than one quote. The whole quote shows that Robb assesses each Frey separately, as individuals, not as an entire group, except when he snubs them for being a recent family and not of old stock, which is the sole thing that Jeyne has going for her when it comes to elligible brides to be a queen (and then he's ignoring the Spicer connection).

[Springwatch]

@sweetsunray I apologise for being so desperately slow with my replies; and I'll have to do it again to give your last post any proper attention. I'll read it tomorrow, and for the moment just put the last bit of my previously reply up without checking it's still relevant. Hope that's ok.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Springwatch said:

@sweetsunray I apologise for being so desperately slow with my replies; and I'll have to do it again to give your last post any proper attention. I'll read it tomorrow, and for the moment just put the last bit of my previously reply up without checking it's still relevant. Hope that's ok.

That's okay. No worries. :-)

[Springwatch]

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

It's not trolling. It's actual text from the book. When Robb wed Jeyne, the engagement with Arya was over and done with.

The Freys trampled Robb's banner into the mud and stormed out. Says it all really. Did anything legally binding happen, or was it all 'We are betrayed!!!', and 'It's all over!!!'? The little we know of their communications is that Robb was sending them messages, offering alternate bridegrooms, and they were not responding (perhaps because they were in early negotiations with Tywin). Sounds like Robb was making all the running at this time.

Anyway, it doesn't make any difference. They offer to restore the alliance; there's no good reason to change any of the terms.

On 8/21/2020 at 12:09 AM, sweetsunray said:

And it was NOT brought up again by the Freys as a demand for Robb to make amends. There is no engagement for Arya with Elmar Frey anymore. Nor did the Freys desire it. The reasons why they didn't even negotiate for it was

1. They intended to kill Robb anyway
2. Robb didn't have Arya and wouldn't acquire her before his death
3. Arya was either dead or in the hands of the Lannisters

And see, the Freys didn't even bother to ask Tywin for Arya. They didn't want the North or Winterfell, because it was burned down. Walder Frey has a daughter wed to the upcoming new Warden of the North, Roose Bolton, and he has Roslin wed to Edmure Frey, an heir for Riverrun, and a son wed to Tywin's sister who get Riverrun. Walder Frey set his sights on a Frey becoming LP of the Riverlands. Tywin foiled him in that ambition, only giving the Freys the castle, but not the title.

And that's all fine. But. They're not going to share any of that with Robb. To Robb, they have to show a false face, the face of the Freys who came back to his side. They are baiting a trap, and they want to appear totally, totally normal i.e. their usual rude, spiteful, grasping selves. Arya is a trophy; however lost she is, the totally normal Freys are not going to abandon their claim on her; it costs them nothing. For six hundred years, the Freys have never failed to exact their toll at the crossing - Robb should be surprised to get a refund for bad behaviour.

[Shierak Qiya]

On 8/11/2020 at 7:58 AM, Helman Corbray said:

King Robb wrote down his last wishes before the Red Wedding, and sent it north with some Lords, to keep it safe and make it public (I think).

Lord Robb wrote down his last wishes.  He was not a king.  Robb was a homeless boy towards the end of his life. 

On 8/11/2020 at 7:58 AM, Helman Corbray said:

But judging by the current state of his Kingdom, with people siding with Bolton, Stannis or Secretly remaining loyal Bannermen, is it likely to be followed, or will the loyalists have enough influence/political power to do it? 

Some in the north will want to lie to themselves and think of Robb as a king. Maybe they will honor that will but it is not going to be legal.  Jon is a bastard even if Robb wanted to change that.  Because Robb doesn't have the power to remove the bastard in Jon.