Will someone follow Robb's will?

[The Commentator]

5 minutes ago, Thunder Bunny-3000 said:

Nope, it was pretty clear he was Declared King of the North and the Trident. 

You’re wrong about that.  Those people can make a declaration until they’re blue in the face.  That still did not make him king. 

[zandru]

1 minute ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Robb would have to win his war to make it independent before they have the right to have their own king. 

No. Just no. I will, however, agree to disagree.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

@zandru, care to tell me how we know that BwB was following Sandor and Arya? Are there any mentions or hints after the two cross the Trident at Harroway?

[Moiraine Sedai]

10 minutes ago, zandru said:

No. Just no. I will, however, agree to disagree.

Very well Alexandru 

[Thunder Bunny-3000]

1 minute ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sure they would want to think that. And they would be wrong. The north is part of Westeros. Robb would have to win his war to make it independent before they have the right to have their own king.  He was a criminal,. a rebel. Nothing more.  Until he wins.  Which didn't happen.  

Stannis is the only King who claims Westeros as his kingdom, while Robb only claims the North and the Riverlands regions. those such as Renly and Joffery claim the throne of the 7 Kingdoms not Westeros. so no I am not wrong. Rob was King of the North and the Trident. his Kingdom may have fallen but that doesn't mean he wasn't a king while he lived. to those that want control of his territory will call him criminal and a rebel because they don't recognize his Kingship as their claims of kingship encompass Robb's borders. 

[Darth Sidious]

Hot topic eh!

Will someone follow Robb's will?  Sure but what the will says is not going to have any bearing except within that circle of people.  Which is going to be a small group.  So small they might as well just have a Zoom meeting to talk about it.  

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, TsarGrey said:

How is that known?

There were witnesses - the prostitutes and Masha Heddle's "heir"

 

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"He might have lied."

"He might have, but he didn't. Later on, we heard how the Hound slew three of his brother's men at an inn by the crossroads. The girl was with him there. The innkeep swore to it before Rorge killed him, and the whores said the same. An ugly bunch, they were. Not so ugly as you, mind you, but still . . ." (aFfC, Brienne IV)

"Is [Masha] the innkeep now?" asked Podrick.

"No. The lions hanged her. After they moved on, I heard that one of her nephews tried opening the inn again, but the wars had made the roads too dangerous for common folk to travel, so there was little custom. He brought in whores, but even that could not save him. Some lord killed him as well, I hear." [...] "The smallfolk call it the crossroads inn. Elder Brother told me that two of Masha Heddle's nieces have opened it to trade once again."

[...]

"Beds, and ale, and hot food to fill our bellies," said Ser Hyle Hunt as he dismounted. "Are you the innkeep?"

She shook her head. "That's my sister Jeyne. She's not here. All we have to eat is horse meat. If you come for whores, there are none. My sister run them off. We have beds, though. Some featherbeds, but more are straw."

[...]

Ser Hyle pulled off his boots to warm his feet by the fire. When Brienne sat down next to him, he nodded at the far end of the room. "There are bloodstains on the floor over there where Dog is sniffing. They've been scrubbed, but the blood soaked deep into the wood, and there's no getting it out."

"This is the inn where Sandor Clegane killed three of his brother's men," she reminded him. (aFfC, Brienne VII)

 

 

Brienne has her info via the Dornishman of the Bloody Mummers, and Elder Brother who has it from Sandor's own lips. But notice that while the innkeep was killed by Rorge, the whores were not and basically squatted at the inn until Jeyne Heddle kicked them out. It's doubtful she could have done that by herself. She's too close with the BwB, and I don't even believe Jeyne Heddle claimed the inn without knowing beforehand she had back up from the BwB. In the Riverlands it's not a secret what Sandor's exploits were as far as Saltpans, and that he had a child with him. The sole people who know who that child was are the BwB, Sandor and Elder Brother

[Ivan Tsarevich]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

There were witnesses

All right. Thank you, and @zandru as well.

[Shierak Qiya]

I guess were at an impasse on Robb's title. 

Good movie to watch on a rainy evening.  If you have the chance one day,  Impasse with Burt Reynolds. 

[zandru]

18 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

care to tell me how we know that BwB was following Sandor and Arya? Are there any mentions or hints after the two cross the Trident at Harroway?

This is what Lady Stoneheart's Brotherhood tell Merrett Frey before they hang him. Epilogue, Storm of Swords:
 

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"Well, as it happens, we're looking for a dog that ran away."

"A dog?" Merrett was lost. "What kind of dog?"

"He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the Kingsroad. Did you see him at the Wedding, per chance?"

[...] 

"He would have had a child with him," the singer said. "A skinny girl, about 10. Or perhaps a boy the same age."

 

 

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, TsarGrey said:

@zandru, care to tell me how we know that BwB was following Sandor and Arya? Are there any mentions or hints after the two cross the Trident at Harroway?

Through Arya's wolf dream we know she finds her dead mother floating in the Green Fork. Nymeria runs off at the appearance of men, whom we later learn were Beric and his men of the BwB, and this in the direction of the Twins. So, the BwB at least followed Sandor's trail towards the Twins.

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. . . and then she could smell her. The scent was faint beneath the other smells, beneath moss and mud and water, and the stench of rotting reeds and rotting men. She padded slowly through the soft ground to the river's edge, lapped up a drink, the lifted her head to sniff. The sky was grey and thick with cloud, the river green and full of floating things. Dead men clogged the shallows, some still moving as the water pushed them, others washed up on the banks. Her brothers and sisters swarmed around them, tearing at the rich ripe flesh. [...] The scent was stronger now. She pricked her ears up and listened to the grumbles of her pack, the shriek of angry crows, the whirr of wings and sound of running water. Somewhere far off she could hear horses and the calls of living men, but they were not what mattered. Only the scent mattered. She sniffed the air again. There it was, and now she saw it too, something pale and white drifting down the river, turning where it brushed against a snag. The reeds bowed down before it.

She splashed noisily through the shallows and threw herself into the deeper water, her legs churning. The current was strong but she was stronger. She swam, following her nose. The river smells were rich and wet, but those were not the smells that pulled her. She paddled after the sharp red whisper of cold blood, the sweet cloying stench of death. She chased them as she had often chased a red deer through the trees, and in the end she ran them down, and her jaw closed around a pale white arm. She shook it to make it move, but there was only death and blood in her mouth. By now she was tiring, and it was all she could do to pull the body back to shore. As she dragged it up the muddy bank, one of her little brothers came prowling, his tongue lolling from his mouth. She had to snarl to drive him off, or else he would have fed. Only then did she stop to shake the water from her fur. The white thing lay facedown in the mud, her dead flesh wrinkled and pale, cold blood trickling from her throat. Rise, she thought. Rise and eat and run with us.

The sound of horses turned her head. Men. They were coming from downwind, so she had not smelled them, but now they were almost here. Men on horses, with flapping black and yellow and pink wings and long shiny claws in hand. Some of her younger brothers bared their teeth to defend the food they'd found, but she snapped at them until they scattered. That was the way of the wild. Deer and hares and crows fled before wolves, and wolves fled from men. She abandoned the cold white prize in the mud where she had dragged it, and ran, and felt no shame. (aSoS, Arya XII)

 

In the epilogue of aSoS that reveals LS, the BwB inquire after the Hound with Merret Frey

 

Quote

 

He drew a melancholy air from the strings of his woodharp. "Here now, don't soil yourself. All you need to do is answer me a question, and I'll tell them to let you go."

Merrett would tell them anything if it meant his life. "What do you want to know? I'll tell you true, I swear it."

The outlaw gave him an encouraging smile. "Well, as it happens, we're looking for a dog that ran away."

"A dog?" Merrett was lost. "What kind of dog?"

"He answers to the name Sandor Clegane. Thoros says he was making for the Twins. We found the ferrymen who took him across the Trident, and the poor sod he robbed on the kingsroad. Did you see him at the wedding, perchance?"

"The Red Wedding?" Merrett's skull felt as if it were about to split, but he did his best to recall. There had been so much confusion, but surely someone would have mentioned Joffrey's dog sniffing round the Twins. "He wasn't in the castle. Not at the main feast . . . he might have been at the bastard feast, or in the camps, but . . . no, someone would have said . . ."

"He would have had a child with him," said the singer. "A skinny girl, about ten. Or perhaps a boy the same age."

"I don't think so," said Merrett. "Not that I knew."

"No? Ah, that's a pity. Well, up you go."

"No," Merrett squealed loudly. "No, don't, I gave you your answer, you said you'd let me go."

[...]

Merrett remembered something then, something that might be the saving of him. "They say Lord Beric always gives a man a trial, that he won't kill a man unless something's proved against him. You can't prove anything against me. The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."

"As it happens, you're wrong there." The singer turned to the hooded woman. "Milady?"

The outlaws parted as she came forward, saying no word. When she lowered her hood, something tightened inside Merrett's chest, and for a moment he could not breathe. No. No, I saw her die. She was dead for a day and night before they stripped her naked and threw her body in the river. Raymund opened her throat from ear to ear. She was dead.

Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated. (aSoS, Epilogue)

 

 

There you go, by their own words, Thoros saw in the fires that Sandor was heading towards the Twins with Arya, they interrogated the ferryman who ferried them over and the man he robbed on the Kingsroad. So, yeah, does that satisfy as evidence that the BwB followed and were on Sandor's and Arya's trail?

[Ivan Tsarevich]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, yeah, does that satisfy as evidence that the BwB followed and were on Sandor's and Arya's trail?

Sure it does. I was just asking a question here, not starting some cross-examining.

It hardly hurts to thank you both again.

[sweetsunray]

59 minutes ago, Shierak Qiya said:

Torrhen knelt and not because he was blowing Aegon.  They were not equals.  The Starks knelt and they became part of the kingdom.  An independent kingdom choosing to kneel rather than face Aegon's forces.  They gave up the right to choose their own king from then on.  They have no right to decide whether to break away or not.  They do not have that right.  They don't have the right to choose their own king. 

Yes, he knelt. That was my point. He voluntarily and peacefully chose to join the 7K and have Aegon Targaryen as king. You do realize that every new king has to ask for the promise of fealty by the lords from all over the kingdom, right? This promise of fealty is thus still a choice. In other words, a people have always a right and freedom to choose whether they want to be a part of a kingdom or not. There's no law that can stop them from choosing. Sure, they will have to succeed in keeping enemy armies out, just like the king of the 7K has to make sure he can keep it. But you cannot legally claim that a warden or lord does not have the right to secede. They can.

Joffrey was a new king, and Robb never swore any fealty to him, therefore he was not bound.

[zandru]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You do realize that every new king has to ask for the promise of fealty by the lords from all over the kingdom, right? This promise of fealty is thus still a choice. In other words, a people have always a right and freedom to choose whether they want to be a part of a kingdom or not.

Thanks for bringing this up! I'd forgotten...

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, he knelt. That was my point. He voluntarily and peacefully chose to join the 7K and have Aegon Targaryen as king. You do realize that every new king has to ask for the promise of fealty by the lords from all over the kingdom, right? This promise of fealty is thus still a choice. In other words, a people have always a right and freedom to choose whether they want to be a part of a kingdom or not. There's no law that can stop them from choosing. Sure, they will have to succeed in keeping enemy armies out, just like the king of the 7K has to make sure he can keep it. But you cannot legally claim that a warden or lord does not have the right to secede. They can.

Joffrey was a new king, and Robb never swore any fealty to him, therefore he was not bound.

The Starks do not get to choose to leave the kingdom.  They gave up that right on the moment Torrhen knelt.  It is not as if the Starks can come and go as they pleased.  They do not have that right.  And the fealty is a formality that every lord who wished to continue being a lord must follow.  They don't get to choose to do this or not.  It matters not whether Robb has done it or he hasn't.  That does not give him the right to take the north away from the kingdom.  The north is no longer his. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Roswell said:

The Starks do not get to choose to leave the kingdom.  They gave up that right on the moment Torrhen knelt.  It is not as if the Starks can come and go as they pleased.  They do not have that right.  And the fealty is a formality that every lord who wished to continue being a lord must follow.  They don't get to choose to do this or not.  It matters not whether Robb has done it or he hasn't.  That does not give him the right to take the north away from the kingdom.  The north is no longer his. 

Torrhen knelt for the North during his reing, whether as king or as warden, not for perpetuity. If it was perpetuity, there would be no need for a renewal of fealty vows for each Stark heir, or for each new ruler of the IT.

It is not just a formality - it is the basis of the feudal contract. If it's just a formality, a king wouldn't need to threaten with "swear fealty or I'll execute you". And they do get to choose. Several chose not to swear fealty to Joffrey even after being captured at the Battle of the Blackwater. Sure, they were killed for it. But they still chose not to recognize Joffrey as king. If enough choose not to, especially when all from the same region, then that king has a genormous problem. Why do you think those feudal kingdoms had so many messy wars and the map of Euope looked like patchwork? Because of this.

The North was Robb's, because each lord did swear fealty to his father, Warden of the North, and after his father's death to him explicitly. Feudal fealty follows a trickle up process: bannerman to their direct liege and that liege to the one above. That automatically makes the North his. Since they swore to him, he is likewise according to the feudal contract obliged to protect them - whether as warden or king, doesn't matter. He swore no fealty to Joffrey, so the fealty swearing chain ends with Robb Stark, and by feudal logic he's not in breach.

I'm not saying it was the smartest or most strategic move. Nor am I saying it's an independent kingdom by the end of aDwD - it clearly isn't. The bannermen in the Riverlands swore fealty to King Tommen, Roose Bolton I assume did so as well and some of the Northern bannermen. But the civil war is not completely won, and King Tommen still has to content with two other claimants - Stannis and now Aegon. And that makes that practically makes the status of the Riverlands and the North a limbo one.

All of these lords (and ladies) I'm sure will have ample opportunity to break away again, and some will do so, with each switch on the IT. If Aegon manages to chase the Lannisters off and Tommen dies before Myrcella, he must ask once again for the lords of the Riverlands to swear fealty to him. Will they do so? With LS avenging the RW by killing both Freys and Lannister forces trapped there, and having something up her sleeve with that crown and Robb's will coming into play, they may decide to swear fealty to a Stark once more. And what Aegon may have done with his GC in the Stormlands, may not be something he can attempt in the Riverlands. While war-wary, they're also war-hardened and have become quite organized underground rebels. Aegon won't be able to rely on the Reach forces, if he himself culled their numbers from his side, and they are being culled by Ironborn in the homefront. And the Vale will eventually rally around Sansa, for the North. And this too is an interesting detail - the Freys may have Riverrun, but they are not the Lord Protector of the Riverlands. Littlefinger is the LP, and he has yet to receive any fealty vows from the Riverlands.

Ultimately, Aegon might have to save face and consolidate peace by drawing up an agreement between an independent kingdom of the North and the Riverlands, where he grants them their independence. Without dragons there isn't much he could do about that.

Meanwhile Stannis is making an effort to convince the North to be part of the 7K again, by fighting for their causes - getting rid of the Ironborn, Freys and Boltons. But whether he will survive this in the long run is doubtful. Once he's dead as are the Boltons, then all the lords who swore fealty to either of them are once again free to swear fealty to a King/Queen Stark. 

The sole character with the military means to try and consolidate all of the kingdoms to become united once more will be Dany.

Regardless of current or future status of the North and the Riverlands. Robb had the legal right to draw up a will on who gets to be his Stark heir, and since he was king at the time, he had the right to legalize an already acknowledged bastard. It was signed by lords of both the Riverlands and the North, and none of them have sworn fealty yet to anyone else. They may have yielded castles  under duress, but they are still prisoners (Edmure, Greatjon, Mallister) or remained out of sight (Maege Mormont, Galbert Glover). Heirs have been named and wills have been drawn regardless of that family in question still having lands and castles or not. The Blackfyres didn't need a castle or be in Westeros to name an heir. Nor do the Targaryens in the present timeline. Viserys may have been a beggar king of nothing, but he's still recognized as such, and the potential loyalty within Westeros to Viserys was enough for Robert to be concerned, especially when Dany was pregnant. The same thing is true for the Starks. Robb got to decide who is the Stark heir of his family bloodline, as well as gets to decide who cannot be his Stark heir. And if there are Stark loyalists they will accept Robb's will, once they're made aware of it. And no crying about "he can't do that" will change that. Feudal society is a mix of fealty vows and having the swords at some point to enforce it. 

[Mystical]

If they follow Robb's will I wonder if Jon is going to remember that he will immediately bring House Stark into debt if he is legitimized and crowned. He did sign a contract with the Iron Bank after all. That was signed with his name right?

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, Mystical said:

If they follow Robb's will I wonder if Jon is going to remember that he will immediately bring House Stark into debt if he is legitimized and crowned. He did sign a contract with the Iron Bank after all. That was signed with his name right?

In debt but fed and clothed? But no, the loan from the Iron Bank is to the Night’s Watch.

“Tycho Nestoris had left behind a copy of their agreement. Jon read it over thrice. That was simple, he reflected. Simpler than I dared hope. Simpler than it should have been.
It gave him an uneasy feeling. Braavosi coin would allow the Night’s Watch to buy food from the south when their own stores ran short, food enough to see them through the winter, however long it might prove to be. A long hard winter will leave the Watch so deep in debt that we will never climb out, Jon reminded himself, but when the choice is debt or death, best borrow.”

 

[Mystical]

On 8/26/2020 at 10:25 PM, kissdbyfire said:

In debt but fed and clothed? But no, the loan from the Iron Bank is to the Night’s Watch.

Is the contract signed generally or with a specific name? Because we know banks. If it just says 'Lord Commander of the NW' on the signature, then no problem. But if it's signed 'Jon Snow' specifically the IB wouldn't care if he's in the NW or not.

[Mithras]

ASoS was written with the intention of a 5 year gap to follow. That means people were going to sit on Robb's Will for 5 years. I don't think Robb's Will will matter in the future.