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Will someone follow Robb's will?


Helman Corbray

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On 8/11/2020 at 12:48 PM, Curled Finger said:

  In that we haven't heard Mormont & Glover were taken by anyone, I think it's almost safe to assume they made it to their destination.   Almost.

 

On 8/11/2020 at 6:27 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree that it’s very likely that Mormont and Glover made it to their destination. But the more interesting question for me is, where are they now

I think this piece of information often doesn't get the scrutiny it should:

ADWD, The King's Prize

Quote

 

"Do you have brothers?" Asha asked her keeper.

"Sisters," Alysane Mormont replied, gruff as ever. "Five, we were. All girls. Lyanna is back on Bear Island. Lyra and Jory are with our mother. Dacey was murdered."

"The Red Wedding."

 

We don't know where they are, but Alysane is sure the three are together. Where could they have met, and given word back to Alysane? 

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40 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

We don't know where they are, but Alysane is sure the three are together. Where could they have met, and given word back to Alysane? 

Yes, I love that bit Martin snuck in there about two more she-bears. The more, the merrier (for me anyway)! :)

There is no mention of Lyra and Jory in ASoS, where Cat interacts w/ Maege and thinks about Dacey, so I’m inclined to think they weren’t there. It’s possible that they were and simply weren’t mentioned, of course. But for argument’s sake, I’m assuming they weren’t. That leaves at least two possibilities: either Maege sent word and had Lyra and Jory meet her somewhere, or Maege has been to BI and left again w/ them. 

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On 8/11/2020 at 4:26 PM, Seams said:

I bet Robb gave the will (or one of the copies) to Jeyne Westerling for safekeeping. He would have trusted her completely. A document is probably something she could conceal from her mother, unlike the crown Robb gave her.

Robb would have no clue that Lady Westerling had conspired with Tywin, so he would have no inkling that Jeyne would be bundled off as a quasi-hostage after his death. If Jeyne has the will, she will have a difficult time getting it into the hands of anyone who might want to implement its directives for Winterfell and the North.

Not if Jeyne, Edmure, and the rest of their party are set upon by Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without Banners.

I'm pretty sure that the prologue of The Winds of Winter will be narrated by Sybell Westerling and that they will be set upon and attacked by the Brotherhood on the way to Casterly Rock....

However, if that is the case, then that puts the ball in Lady Stoneheart's court. Although she is no fan of Jon Snow, she loves Robb and would feel compelled to honor his last will and testament. Idk...Lady Stoneheart is very unpredictable.

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2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

We don't know where they are, but Alysane is sure the three are together. Where could they have met, and given word back to Alysane? 

It's a good catch, Lady.  

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, I love that bit Martin snuck in there about two more she-bears. The more, the merrier (for me anyway)! :)

There is no mention of Lyra and Jory in ASoS, where Cat interacts w/ Maege and thinks about Dacey, so I’m inclined to think they weren’t there. It’s possible that they were and simply weren’t mentioned, of course. But for argument’s sake, I’m assuming they weren’t. That leaves at least two possibilities: either Maege sent word and had Lyra and Jory meet her somewhere, or Maege has been to BI and left again w/ them. 

Westeros needs more Mormonts!  Interesting we've got a Jory in here.   I thought it was a male name?  Only thing I would caution is to be careful with anything Alysane says to Asha...there is a grudge here so could be an ulterior motive for everything she says.   The exchanges between Asha and Alysane are some of my favorite dialogue in the series.  

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Not if Jeyne, Edmure, and the rest of their party are set upon by Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood without Banners.

I'm pretty sure that the prologue of The Winds of Winter will be narrated by Sybell Westerling and that they will be set upon and attacked by the Brotherhood on the way to Casterly Rock....

However, if that is the case, then that puts the ball in Lady Stoneheart's court. Although she is no fan of Jon Snow, she loves Robb and would feel compelled to honor his last will and testament. Idk...Lady Stoneheart is very unpredictable.

I'm all in on Sybell Westerling dying as soon as possible.   She is a horror.  

While posting here I took the opportunity to reread the text.   Robb is decisive about naming Jon his heir, but Cat fights the idea in her own thoughts even after Robb leaves.   I'm not sold LSH will do anything at all to see Robb's wishes to fruition.  

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22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's a good catch, Lady.  

Westeros needs more Mormonts!  Interesting we've got a Jory in here.   I thought it was a male name?  Only thing I would caution is to be careful with anything Alysane says to Asha...there is a grudge here so could be an ulterior motive for everything she says.   The exchanges between Asha and Alysane are some of my favorite dialogue in the series.  

We all need more Mormont she-bears! :wub:

Jory’s name is Jorelle, perhaps a nod to Jor-L? 
I think Aly and Asha ended up developing a real friendship, and I think they care about each other. And yes, I love their scenes as well. 

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm all in on Sybell Westerling dying as soon as possible.   She is a horror.  

Yeah, she is a horror. :ack:

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

While posting here I took the opportunity to reread the text.   Robb is decisive about naming Jon his heir, but Cat fights the idea in her own thoughts even after Robb leaves.   I'm not sold LSH will do anything at all to see Robb's wishes to fruition.  

You and me both. I also think the surprise in the will is going to be Arya. :eek:

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

We all need more Mormont she-bears! :wub:

Jory’s name is Jorelle, perhaps a nod to Jor-L? 
I think Aly and Asha ended up developing a real friendship, and I think they care about each other. And yes, I love their scenes as well. 

Yeah, she is a horror. :ack:

You and me both. I also think the surprise in the will is going to be Arya. :eek:

Thankee for the edification on Jorelle.  I'm not sure what this thing is with Asha and Alysane but it sure is fun to read.  Arya?  Very interesting twist that would be.  So would that encourage Jon to seek his little sister out to seat her?   Very cool possibilities in this.

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20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Thankee for the edification on Jorelle.  I'm not sure what this thing is with Asha and Alysane but it sure is fun to read.  Arya?  Very interesting twist that would be.  So would that encourage Jon to seek his little sister out to seat her?   Very cool possibilities in this.

Yeah, it could create an interesting development. Hard to predict anything, b/c we still know so little. But I find it extremely conspicuous that Robb mentions all his siblings but Arya when presenting his will. I think he may have added Arya in there somehow, more to appease Cat than anything else, b/c he thinks Arya is dead. But he wasn’t going to let Cat sway him from naming Jon... they have that heated discussion about it. And here’s what he says when he presents the will to be signed by those lords in the tent:

“Catelyn turned to her son. “I mean no offense to Lord Jason,” she said stiffly, “but if I cannot continue on with you, I would sooner return to Riverrun.”
“I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command.” Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. “One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”
A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he’d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he’d just caught her.”

Not even mentioning Arya is very conspicuous... :dunno:

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3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, it could create an interesting development. Hard to predict anything, b/c we still know so little. But I find it extremely conspicuous that Robb mentions all his siblings but Arya when presenting his will. I think he may have added Arya in there somehow, more to appease Cat than anything else, b/c he thinks Arya is dead. But he wasn’t going to let Cat sway him from naming Jon... they have that heated discussion about it. And here’s what he says when he presents the will to be signed by those lords in the tent:

“Catelyn turned to her son. “I mean no offense to Lord Jason,” she said stiffly, “but if I cannot continue on with you, I would sooner return to Riverrun.”
“I left my wife at Riverrun. I want my mother elsewhere. If you keep all your treasures in one purse, you only make it easier for those who would rob you. After the wedding, you shall go to Seagard, that is my royal command.” Robb stood, and as quick as that, her fate was settled. He picked up a sheet of parchment. “One more matter. Lord Balon has left chaos in his wake, we hope. I would not do the same. Yet I have no son as yet, my brothers Bran and Rickon are dead, and my sister is wed to a Lannister. I’ve thought long and hard about who might follow me. I command you now as my true and loyal lords to fix your seals to this document as witnesses to my decision.”
A king indeed, Catelyn thought, defeated. She could only hope that the trap he’d planned for Moat Cailin worked as well as the one in which he’d just caught her.”

Not even mentioning Arya is very conspicuous... :dunno:

It is conspicuous and lends a definite conspirator vibe to Blackfish's statements to Jamie.   

Though I admit that when I was rereading our comments I thought it would be stellar if Robb named one of the Vale cousins just to shut his mother up.  It's the only way I can get Sansa North.   Lack of imagination more than anything, but you gave me something new to chew on.   

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t think it will come to Jon becoming KitN b/c of Robb’s will. But if it did happen, yeah,  I think he would step aside in favour of one of his “siblings”

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I cannot see any situation where Jon Snow willingly takes power in the North over his siblings, if he knows they are alive. Perhaps if he knows the White Walkers are pounding in the door and he senses his siblings are not capable or willing to meet the threat head-on. But even then he would question whether or not he was doing the right thing.

I'm sorry. I have not read the remaining posts.

 

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Though I admit that when I was rereading our comments I thought it would be stellar if Robb named one of the Vale cousins just to shut his mother up.  It's the only way I can get Sansa North.

I'm not sure why you'd want to get Sansa to the North. After all, it's Winter now. Look how badly bogged down Stannis is as he approaches Winterfell. And needless to say, there's a war on. Travel is totally ridiculous. (Unless you're a Braavosi banker and gold is involved.)

I'm guessing that Littlefinger's machinations will take a fair amount of time to come to fruition, anyway. What with Sansa's enticing Harry the Heir, little Robert Arryn's precarious health to make worse, possibly an extra marriage and widowhood or two... It's reasonable that Sansa won't move until the coming Spring.

Plus, we've got the Mad Mouse, recently in Littlefinger's pay (won't Baelish be surprised when Sansa is whisked back to King's Landing for the big reward!), and the stories of Sansa's night time fantasy, the Hound, going rogue and ravaging the Riverlands. Although Sansa has never done much of anything to help anyone else, might she have changed?

I do like the speculation that Arya may have been named in the will. Perhaps Robb was thinking of her toughness and resourcefulness; why not? In this case, she could be in for a  big surprise, should she return from Braavos!

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On 8/12/2020 at 1:09 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Jon is dead. Oath finishes at death. like in the abomination. As for willing to break his oath....I'm sick and tired of reasoning with haters' biases

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Jon did exceptionally well considering his age, all that he went through with the wildlings and his own sworn brothers and especially Ygritte. I still think that they should have gone into the caves as she suggested because...see the above link. But the storyline would be affected, so we could not have had that.

Jon did deeds that were both honorable and also not. But the former far exceeds the latter. He defended Castle Black with only greenboys, cripples and greybeards, while he himself was injured. His trick with Magnar and his raiders could not have been done by anyone else of the Watch at such a time. His wits and swordsmanship are really good, though not legendary. He withstood Mance's assault till Stannis arrived. 

If helping Stannis was wrong. so be it. But Stannis could've taken everything by force, so what Jon did was somewhat right. Besides Stannis did help the Watch, unlike all the other pretenders and claimants.

If you call his actions of allowing the wildlings through the Wall and saving them as poor, I suggest that you reconsider. Please keep in mind that the true enemy are the Others and each dead wildling beyond the Wall is one more wight to fight. Many of the Night's Watch seem to have forgotten this when they killed/tried to kill him, like you.

Him sending Mance/Rattleshirt/Abel to rescue fake Arya was not against his duties, as Meli had him under her power, so he was sure of his return (though not sure when). What would any of us have done then in his position? (with exceptions if any are like Stannis).

Him going to march against Ramsay was wrong. but not in entirety. Please re-read the letter from Ramsay to Jon. It disrespected all the laws of the kingdoms in what it demanded in its contents.

  Quote

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

If you truly understood how cruel and sadistic Ramsay was (as I'm sure you did), you'd agree with me.

Any other crimes or failures of Jon I might've missed???

 

Jon will be released from his oath when he can no longer breathe.  In other words, when he's really dead.  Suffering a momentary heart stoppage and then coming back to life after that does not release a sworn brother from their oaths to the Night's Watch.  It will be almost impossible to prove that he died if he came back and started walking again.  Jon is bound to the Night's Watch until he can no longer walk, breathe, and talk. 

I am not saying he won't desert.  Jon is not an honorable guy.  He will come back Stark raving mad and looking for vengeance.  He is not going to let something sacred like an oath hold him back. 

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42 minutes ago, Tai Pan said:

Jon is not an honorable guy.

Evidence?

49 minutes ago, Tai Pan said:

Robb was not a king.  He was a rebel, a lord and nothing more. 

The North (excluding the Boltons, who are on the verge of extinction anyway) would disagree with you. In addition, when King Stannis, the First of His Name, takes power, he would not hesitate to "legitimate" Jon Snow-Stark, because he's already offered to do just that. With or without a last will & testament from the late King Robb.

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8 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

We don't know where they are, but Alysane is sure the three are together. Where could they have met, and given word back to Alysane? 

Maege and Glover journeyed with Mallister (also witness to the will) to his castle from where they sailed to the Neck. Imo they sent word to Alysanne from Mallister's castle, including a plan to rid Deepwood Motte of Asha and rescue Glover's sister-in-law and her children (Galbert's heirs after his brother). Alysanne left for this mission, but was prevented from acting since Asha left for the Iron Islands taking Sybelle and her children with her. Because Alysanne was already gone on her mission, it was up to Lyanna Mormont to reply to Stannis's letter, and imo revealing that Lyanna (and Alysanne) know who is Robb's heir in his will. Even if Alysanne may never have seen the actual will, the mission letter revealing it would have the signatures of Mallister, her mom and Glabert Glover who are 3 of the 6 witnesses to the will, aside from Cat, Greatjon and Edmure.

The mission Alysanne had was still waywarded by Asha upon her return, because she only brought Sybelle back and left Sybelle's children with her uncle. Stannis' attack on Deepwood Motte, forced Alysanne to join and prevent any of Asha's men to return to the Iron Islands and jeapoardize the lives of Sybelle's children. I'm certain that Alysanne communicated everything to Sybelle and warned the other men of the mountain clans, prompting the rougher ones to apologize to Asha, and for two leaders of the mountain clans to come down to CB and meet with Jon, bringing fighting men and life giving wetnurses (it's not just 2 old men going there to die, but they're taking women with them who could save the lives of their own babies to please Jon and breastfeed the child of a "wildling"). And it's imo the reason why Alysanne volunteers to be Asha's guardian bear for as long as she can. Once, Stannis and the mountain clans have Theon, the risk of Asha being harmed in revenge for Theon's murder of "Bran and Rickon" is down to zero.

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4 hours ago, zandru said:

I'm not sure why you'd want to get Sansa to the North. After all, it's Winter now. Look how badly bogged down Stannis is as he approaches Winterfell. And needless to say, there's a war on. Travel is totally ridiculous. (Unless you're a Braavosi banker and gold is involved.)

I'm guessing that Littlefinger's machinations will take a fair amount of time to come to fruition, anyway. What with Sansa's enticing Harry the Heir, little Robert Arryn's precarious health to make worse, possibly an extra marriage and widowhood or two... It's reasonable that Sansa won't move until the coming Spring.

Plus, we've got the Mad Mouse, recently in Littlefinger's pay (won't Baelish be surprised when Sansa is whisked back to King's Landing for the big reward!), and the stories of Sansa's night time fantasy, the Hound, going rogue and ravaging the Riverlands. Although Sansa has never done much of anything to help anyone else, might she have changed?

I do like the speculation that Arya may have been named in the will. Perhaps Robb was thinking of her toughness and resourcefulness; why not? In this case, she could be in for a  big surprise, should she return from Braavos!

Why would Sansa go North?  So she can be safe, maybe reunite with what family remains to her?  While I agree that travel is ridiculous, there are plenty of characters on the move.   And I may be a book ahead of myself as you seem to be really interested in the Vale plot.  Which I am not and if I can get Sansa North I won't have to read anymore about this nonsense in the Vale.  

Yah, that little curve ball with naming Arya was inspired.  I don't think she would like being the Stark in Winterfell, but I think she would do it.  

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4 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Yes but the sentiment is worthless because the will does not carry the force of law.  Only a king can legitimize a bastard.  Robb was not a king.  He was a rebel, a lord and nothing more. 

I get where you are coming from but want to stress Varys' idea that power is where people believe it is.  The North named Robb King and planned to secede from the realm.  Robb definitely could legitimize a bastard.    

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30 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Why would Sansa go North?  So she can be safe, maybe reunite with what family remains to her? 

I understand the motivation here, and that Sansa thought fondly of Winterfell while she was in the Eyrie. However, as far as she knows, there are no other family members remaining, and that the Boltons now rule the north, operating out of Winterfell. Which Theon burned and sacked.

I can definitely imagine something like Sansa returning to the ancestral home in A Dream of Spring, however, as you say! I haven't been permitting myself to think that far ahead.

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Varys' idea that power is where people believe it is

Great call! And more succinct than my explanation.

Now, we can all hope that Lord Snow (an honorable man) isn't actually dead, or at least isn't permanently dead.

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

I'm guessing that Littlefinger's machinations will take a fair amount of time to come to fruition, anyway. What with Sansa's enticing Harry the Heir, little Robert Arryn's precarious health to make worse, possibly an extra marriage and widowhood or two... It's reasonable that Sansa won't move until the coming Spring.

Plus, we've got the Mad Mouse, recently in Littlefinger's pay (won't Baelish be surprised when Sansa is whisked back to King's Landing for the big reward!), and the stories of Sansa's night time fantasy, the Hound, going rogue and ravaging the Riverlands. Although Sansa has never done much of anything to help anyone else, might she have changed?

 

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

nd I may be a book ahead of myself as you seem to be really interested in the Vale plot.  Which I am not and if I can get Sansa North I won't have to read anymore about this nonsense in the Vale. 

Hmmm, I think some events beyond even LF's power to control will enfold in the Vale - cataclystic natural disaster stuff. Namely I suspect an avalanche will ruin the whole tournament, kill plenty of people, and damage the battlements of the Bloody Gate, to allow for an attack by the mountain clans. There's a plot functional reason why Royce isn't present at the tournament - so survivors can flock to Royce.

As for Shadrich, I don't think he's the moneylusting kidnapper for Cersei he pretended to be to Brienne. Imo he did that to test and warn Brienne to be more discrete, especially around those two "old, kind" hedgeknights she began to trust. Seems to have worked too, because she stole away in the night without warning them.

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