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Sor Peter, the Tall

House Lannister gold issues

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Are the Lannister running out of gold? Did they sack the Riverlands and Riverrun to pay the warcosts? I know the crown has a 3 million debt and Tywin never bothered in asking the gold back (probably because his House was very close to the Iron Throne) but Tywin is dead, House Lannister in political decline and the Iron Bank not very happy with Cersei. What are your thoughts about House Lannister financial situation?

also, apologies for the bad English, not my native language.

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That's only canon in the show. There's zero indication in the books that the Rock has run out of gold. Tywin sacked the Riverlands, as it were, because that's just how he rolls. He had no reason to cancel the crown's debts to the Lannisters so wouldn't, especially considering his father's outrageous lending & Tywin's own failure of securing further political gain when he bailed out Aerys with the Iron Bank. Nor does Robert seem to have asked his good-father to even reduce, let alone forgive, the debt anyway.

Even if the Lannisters themselves were running out of gold from their mines, as long as that crown debt remains & keeps being paid, they'd still earn money from that. And of course, there's the incomes of their own lands & of their vassals (several of whom still have profitable mines) that makes its way to the Rock through taxation.

You're English is more than fine, I wouldn't have thought it may not be your first language had you not said so.

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10 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

That's only canon in the show. There's zero indication in the books that the Rock has run out of gold. Tywin sacked the Riverlands, as it were, because that's just how he rolls. He had no reason to cancel the crown's debts to the Lannisters so wouldn't, especially considering his father's outrageous lending & Tywin's own failure of securing further political gain when he bailed out Aerys with the Iron Bank. Nor does Robert seem to have asked his good-father to even reduce, let alone forgive, the debt anyway.

Even if the Lannisters themselves were running out of gold from their mines, as long as that crown debt remains & keeps being paid, they'd still earn money from that. And of course, there's the incomes of their own lands & of their vassals (several of whom still have profitable mines) that makes its way to the Rock through taxation.

You're English is more than fine, I wouldn't have thought it may not be your first language had you not said so.

Is there evidence in the books that the crown is being paid? And yes, I forgot that Tywin tax his vassals. I guess I am worrying too much, Tywin is a smart man, he probably invested somewhere to never run out of gold.

And I am glad my English is not rusty yet haha.

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The Lannisters are effectively the crown right now, so it's a bit like paying yourself though increased power of the Tyrells would muddy that. There's nothing in the text about the mines running dry or Daven doing anything to raise any alarm. Tyrion's super sharp and as we're in his head, there's not even hints to that.

Lannister gold/money problems kind of runs against some characterization and themes of the books. If the Lannisters have plenty of money, their ambition is something more complex and frankly interesting than just base greed. Most of the characters of the books are motivated to seek power by more complex things like pride and revenge and also more benign things like Jon and Tyrion wanting to prove that people's biases against them are wrong.

The Westerlands have a long history of magic use so when questioning Lannister gold, that something magical is at work should be entertained. Some of the text below is a bit silly sounding, but the Valyrians not touching CR gold despite them trying to touch, well, about whatever they wanted, lends a good deal of gravity to their being something to this though we don't really know what.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

Each of these families became powers, and some in time took on the styles of lords and even kings. Yet by far the greatest lords in the westerlands were the Casterlys of the Rock, who had their seat in a colossal stone that rose beside the Sunset Sea. Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock. Armed only with a spear, he slew the lion and his mate but spared her newborn cubs—an act of mercy that so pleased the old gods (for this was long before the Seven came to Westeros) that they sent a sudden shaft of sunlight deep into the cave, and there in the stony walls, Corlos beheld the gleam of yellow gold, a vein as thick as a man's waist.

...

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

AGOT Eddard I

He opened to the section on House Lannister once more, and turned the pages slowly, hoping against hope that something would leap out at him. The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their descent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair. Ned wished he were here now, to winkle the truth out of this damnable book.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

The Lannisters are effectively the crown right now, so it's a bit like paying yourself though increased power of the Tyrells would muddy that. There's nothing in the text about the mines running dry or Daven doing anything to raise any alarm. Tyrion's super sharp and as we're in his head, there's not even hints to that.

Lannister gold/money problems kind of runs against some characterization and themes of the books. If the Lannisters have plenty of money, their ambition is something more complex and frankly interesting than just base greed. Most of the characters of the books are motivated to seek power by more complex things like pride and revenge and also more benign things like Jon and Tyrion wanting to prove that people's biases against them are wrong.

The Westerlands have a long history of magic use so when questioning Lannister gold, that something magical is at work should be entertained. Some of the text below is a bit silly sounding, but the Valyrians not touching CR gold despite them trying to touch, well, about whatever they wanted, lends a good deal of gravity to their being something to this though we don't really know what.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands

Each of these families became powers, and some in time took on the styles of lords and even kings. Yet by far the greatest lords in the westerlands were the Casterlys of the Rock, who had their seat in a colossal stone that rose beside the Sunset Sea. Legend tells us the first Casterly lord was a huntsman, Corlos son of Caster, who lived in a village near to where Lannisport stands today. When a lion began preying upon the village's sheep, Corlos tracked it back to its den, a cave in the base of the Rock. Armed only with a spear, he slew the lion and his mate but spared her newborn cubs—an act of mercy that so pleased the old gods (for this was long before the Seven came to Westeros) that they sent a sudden shaft of sunlight deep into the cave, and there in the stony walls, Corlos beheld the gleam of yellow gold, a vein as thick as a man's waist.

...

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

AGOT Eddard I

He opened to the section on House Lannister once more, and turned the pages slowly, hoping against hope that something would leap out at him. The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their descent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair. Ned wished he were here now, to winkle the truth out of this damnable book.

 

 

I knew about Valyria fearing Lannister gold, but I didnt know that about Corlos, very interesting. And there is always a bit of truth in ancient legends. Thanks for the reply

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On 8/12/2020 at 3:05 AM, Sor Peter, the Tall said:

Are the Lannister running out of gold? Did they sack the Riverlands and Riverrun to pay the warcosts? I know the crown has a 3 million debt and Tywin never bothered in asking the gold back (probably because his House was very close to the Iron Throne) but Tywin is dead, House Lannister in political decline and the Iron Bank not very happy with Cersei. What are your thoughts about House Lannister financial situation?

also, apologies for the bad English, not my native language.

No matter what their mines might be producing, three million gold out the window is nothing to sneeze at. But this might be by design.

I suspect that Littlefinger is actually working for Illyrio in a scheme to bring down the Iron Bank by getting it to overextend itself and then making a significant withdrawal (primarily from deposits of the very money that the bank loaned the Iron Throne in the first place) that the bank will not be able to cover. This produces a classic bank run, just like what happened to the Rogares, that drives it into insolvency and takes the Braavosi economy down with it.

In the meantime, Illyrio will have installed his man on the Iron Throne, who will immediately declare that the new Targeryen dynasty will not honor the debt racked up by usurpers. This gives him two options to deal with the two most significant houses in the land: either promise to repay their loans in exchange for their loyalty, or let them suffer the financial consequences that would weaken them as potential rivals anyway.

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Hey @Sor Peter, the Tall, welcome to the madness.  Was reading through the replies to the OP.  @John Suburbs makes a great point in recalling the Lyseni Spring/Rogarre Bank fiasco.  If history is a wheel and repeats itself we may expect the Iron Bank to bring the Lannisters to their knees no matter how much money they actually have.   The Rogarres were subject to not only Westerosi punishment, but Lyseni as well.  All possessions seized and sons/daughters sold into slavery.   I would love to see Cersei become enslaved, her face tattooed with flies.  No fluffy pillow house job for our girl!  

After all is said and done, Cersei doesn't care about repaying the Iron Bank or Throne.   That's a dangerous situation to be in with all that gold that could make some problems go away.   Jamie doesn't seem to have a stake in any familial wealth and Tyrion has already signed a great lot away in joining the sell swords.    Looks bad for the Lannisters.  

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7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey @Sor Peter, the Tall, welcome to the madness.  Was reading through the replies to the OP.  @John Suburbs makes a great point in recalling the Lyseni Spring/Rogarre Bank fiasco.  If history is a wheel and repeats itself we may expect the Iron Bank to bring the Lannisters to their knees no matter how much money they actually have.   The Rogarres were subject to not only Westerosi punishment, but Lyseni as well.  All possessions seized and sons/daughters sold into slavery.   I would love to see Cersei become enslaved, her face tattooed with flies.  No fluffy pillow house job for our girl!  

After all is said and done, Cersei doesn't care about repaying the Iron Bank or Throne.   That's a dangerous situation to be in with all that gold that could make some problems go away.   Jamie doesn't seem to have a stake in any familial wealth and Tyrion has already signed a great lot away in joining the sell swords.    Looks bad for the Lannisters.  

Hmm. If CR gold is problematic for Valyria because of magicy reasons, the IB might want the Lannisters' gold not just for financial reasons.

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1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Hmm. If CR gold is problematic for Valyria because of magicy reasons, the IB might want the Lannisters' gold not just for financial reasons.

Heck yeah.  That thought flashed through my mind, but I couldn't put any flesh on it.   Thankee for the direction on that one.   

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19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Hey @Sor Peter, the Tall, welcome to the madness.  Was reading through the replies to the OP.  @John Suburbs makes a great point in recalling the Lyseni Spring/Rogarre Bank fiasco.  If history is a wheel and repeats itself we may expect the Iron Bank to bring the Lannisters to their knees no matter how much money they actually have.   The Rogarres were subject to not only Westerosi punishment, but Lyseni as well.  All possessions seized and sons/daughters sold into slavery.   I would love to see Cersei become enslaved, her face tattooed with flies.  No fluffy pillow house job for our girl!  

After all is said and done, Cersei doesn't care about repaying the Iron Bank or Throne.   That's a dangerous situation to be in with all that gold that could make some problems go away.   Jamie doesn't seem to have a stake in any familial wealth and Tyrion has already signed a great lot away in joining the sell swords.    Looks bad for the Lannisters.  

I'm not sure how that would work. The Lannister don't owe anything to the IB and the IB doesn't owe anything to the Lannisters, as far as we know. So how would the IB bring the Lannisters to their knees, especially if it has gone under? If that happens, then the iron coin becomes worthless, Braavos collapses and Pentos is off the hook. 

The only way the Lanns can be brought to their knees, as I see it, is if Aegon takes the throne and offers them a deal: either submit and we will pay back your loan, or resist and your money is forfeit. If they choose the latter, then all Aegon has to do is isolate Casterly Rock, appoint another high lord and Warden of the West, and let them all starve. And this is assuming that either Jaime or Cersei or one of the other main branch Lannisters is in possession of CR, which at the moment I believe is still held by Ser Damion.

Now, if Stannis prevails and somehow gains the Iron Throne, then the IB survives as well and then Stannis could bring the Lanns to their knees along the same lines that Aegon would. But the IB cannot take on the Lanns by themselves. They are too far away and it would be exorbitantly expensive to overthrow them.

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure how that would work. The Lannister don't owe anything to the IB and the IB doesn't owe anything to the Lannisters, as far as we know. So how would the IB bring the Lannisters to their knees, especially if it has gone under? If that happens, then the iron coin becomes worthless, Braavos collapses and Pentos is off the hook. 

The only way the Lanns can be brought to their knees, as I see it, is if Aegon takes the throne and offers them a deal: either submit and we will pay back your loan, or resist and your money is forfeit. If they choose the latter, then all Aegon has to do is isolate Casterly Rock, appoint another high lord and Warden of the West, and let them all starve. And this is assuming that either Jaime or Cersei or one of the other main branch Lannisters is in possession of CR, which at the moment I believe is still held by Ser Damion.

Now, if Stannis prevails and somehow gains the Iron Throne, then the IB survives as well and then Stannis could bring the Lanns to their knees along the same lines that Aegon would. But the IB cannot take on the Lanns by themselves. They are too far away and it would be exorbitantly expensive to overthrow them.

Nono, I did not realize it was unclear.  The Lannisters are in power.  We began the story with the Iron Throne in debt several million gold stags to the Lannisters and nearly as much to the Iron Bank.  Cersei, as ruling regent, refuses to pay any debts to either the IB or her own house.  Tywin's wars could not have been financially inconsequential.   Nonetheless history instructs us that Tywin's attacks on the Westerlands were due in no small part to debts unpaid.  You brought up the Rogarre's who I believe the Iron Bank decimated.   The Iron Bank does not mess around.   Cercei Lannister is in charge of paying the debts the Iron Throne owes the Iron Bank as well as House Lannister.   

As if this wasn't bad enough, Tyrion has made promises to the Second Sons involving Lannister assets and proprieties.  Any mine has finite yield.  Sounds expensive if not devastating to me. 

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On 8/14/2020 at 4:35 PM, Curled Finger said:

Nono, I did not realize it was unclear.  The Lannisters are in power.  We began the story with the Iron Throne in debt several million gold stags to the Lannisters and nearly as much to the Iron Bank.  Cersei, as ruling regent, refuses to pay any debts to either the IB or her own house.  Tywin's wars could not have been financially inconsequential.   Nonetheless history instructs us that Tywin's attacks on the Westerlands were due in no small part to debts unpaid.  You brought up the Rogarre's who I believe the Iron Bank decimated.   The Iron Bank does not mess around.   Cercei Lannister is in charge of paying the debts the Iron Throne owes the Iron Bank as well as House Lannister.   

As if this wasn't bad enough, Tyrion has made promises to the Second Sons involving Lannister assets and proprieties.  Any mine has finite yield.  Sounds expensive if not devastating to me. 

Sorry, still trying to follow you here.

The Iron Bank had nothing to do with the Rogare Bank failure as far as we can tell. Lysaro Rogare was embezzling from the bank and got caught, producing a bank run. I supposed the IB could have had something to do with it, but it was Lysaro who actually caused it. If anything, the Rogare example shows that it doesn't matter how rich or powerful a bank is -- since the Rogare bank was said to be greater than the IB at its height -- financial insolvency can happen in a day when depositors no longer have trust that their money is safe.

I'm not sure how you see Tywin's invasion of the riverlands having anything to do with unpaid debts. He went in after Cat snatched Tyrion; it was a question of honor. I don't see anything indicating that the river lords were borrowing from Tywin, or that they weren't paying it back.

Yes, the crown owes money to the IB, and houses Lannister and Tyrell, plus several trading cartels, and it would have owed to the faith if Cersei hadn't cut that deal. This, I think, is what really alarmed Illyrio and Littlefinger. If the faith's debt was still intact, that is yet another potential threat to the restored Targaryen regime that could have been neutralized. Now, they not only have no leverage over the faith, but it has its own source of military might as well. So if you look carefully, LF managed to create financial obligations to the most powerful potential opposition to King Aegon, which could then be used to either compel their loyalty in exchange for continued honorance of that debt or weaken them financially and militarily if they resist.

But the Iron Bank is SooL, because that is who Illyrio is really after.

 

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On 8/12/2020 at 3:05 AM, Sor Peter, the Tall said:

Are the Lannister running out of gold? Did they sack the Riverlands and Riverrun to pay the warcosts? I know the crown has a 3 million debt and Tywin never bothered in asking the gold back (probably because his House was very close to the Iron Throne) but Tywin is dead, House Lannister in political decline and the Iron Bank not very happy with Cersei. What are your thoughts about House Lannister financial situation?

also, apologies for the bad English, not my native language.

Their finances are unknown.  They seem sound for now.  Although Robert’s debt is a problem.  Tyrion also signed away a lot of their holdings.  If he should come to power . . . they will lose much of their fortune.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Their finances are unknown.  They seem sound for now.  Although Robert’s debt is a problem.  Tyrion also signed away a lot of their holdings.  If he should come to power . . . they will lose much of their fortune.

Tyrion promised a lot of gold, but the only person he promised land to was Brown Ben Plumm

Brown Ben's note was the last. That one had been inscribed upon a sheepskin scroll. One hundred thousand golden dragons, fifty hides of fertile land, a castle, and a lordship. Well and well. This Plumm does not come cheaply.

 

So he'd be asking for a Lordship just under 10 square miles. Not cheap, but certainly doable by the Lord of the Westerlands.

 

The main issue is that Tyrion, the kinslaying imp, invading with a foreign army, is liable to unite the Westerland lords behind whichever Lannister is left to rule. I can't see how Tyrion's 500 men would be successful when Robb's 6k knew they could not threaten either the Rock or Lannisport.

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12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, still trying to follow you here.

The Iron Bank had nothing to do with the Rogare Bank failure as far as we can tell. Lysaro Rogare was embezzling from the bank and got caught, producing a bank run. I supposed the IB could have had something to do with it, but it was Lysaro who actually caused it. If anything, the Rogare example shows that it doesn't matter how rich or powerful a bank is -- since the Rogare bank was said to be greater than the IB at its height -- financial insolvency can happen in a day when depositors no longer have trust that their money is safe.

I'm not sure how you see Tywin's invasion of the riverlands having anything to do with unpaid debts. He went in after Cat snatched Tyrion; it was a question of honor. I don't see anything indicating that the river lords were borrowing from Tywin, or that they weren't paying it back.

Yes, the crown owes money to the IB, and houses Lannister and Tyrell, plus several trading cartels, and it would have owed to the faith if Cersei hadn't cut that deal. This, I think, is what really alarmed Illyrio and Littlefinger. If the faith's debt was still intact, that is yet another potential threat to the restored Targaryen regime that could have been neutralized. Now, they not only have no leverage over the faith, but it has its own source of military might as well. So if you look carefully, LF managed to create financial obligations to the most powerful potential opposition to King Aegon, which could then be used to either compel their loyalty in exchange for continued honorance of that debt or weaken them financially and militarily if they resist.

But the Iron Bank is SooL, because that is who Illyrio is really after.

 

Ok.  I appreciate the extended explanation.  

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion promised a lot of gold, but the only person he promised land to was Brown Ben Plumm

Brown Ben's note was the last. That one had been inscribed upon a sheepskin scroll. One hundred thousand golden dragons, fifty hides of fertile land, a castle, and a lordship. Well and well. This Plumm does not come cheaply.

So he'd be asking for a Lordship just under 10 square miles. Not cheap, but certainly doable by the Lord of the Westerlands.

The main issue is that Tyrion, the kinslaying imp, invading with a foreign army, is liable to unite the Westerland lords behind whichever Lannister is left to rule. I can't see how Tyrion's 500 men would be successful when Robb's 6k knew they could not threaten either the Rock or Lannisport.

Guessing it will have something to do with dragons since the Second Sons already defected to Dany.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Guessing it will have something to do with dragons since the Second Sons already defected to Dany.

That would be the reason Martin had Tyrion be in charge of the drains at the Rock. 

If he takes Casterly Rock with an army, he is more or less de facto lord of the Westerlands, particularly considering he is the lawful heir and lack of other options.

His conviction's relevance is only dependant on whose in charge and where there current interests lie. 

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2 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

That would be the reason Martin had Tyrion be in charge of the drains at the Rock. 

If he takes Casterly Rock with an army, he is more or less de facto lord of the Westerlands, particularly considering he is the lawful heir and lack of other options.

His conviction's relevance is only dependant on whose in charge and where there current interests lie. 

I don't think he is still the lawful heir. The murder of his father will have stripped him of that.

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