GrimTuesday Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: How? Do tell. Well, if your immediate impulse is to throw you hands up and proclaim that there is nothing you can do besides take what you are given, you are considerably less likely to think that something better is possible and to fight for it. Why would I be inclined to trust the analysis of someone who just rolls over because they don't have an absolute majority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Alright I haven't been following the whole conversation but this whining about the Dems on stimulus seems to be getting fucking ridiculous. What should they be doing? Agree to Meadows and Mnuchin's horseshit plan? Wouldn't that be even more feckless? And about independent contractors like the Dems are abandoning them? I've been unemployed for three months now, I have little hope my filing for insurance will ever actually reap benefits, and I'm not an independent contractor. We're all getting fucked by Trump and the GOP. Don't see much reason, on that front, to qualify who's getting more fucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said: Well, if your immediate impulse is to throw you hands up and proclaim that there is nothing you can do besides take what you are given, you are considerably less likely to think that something better is possible and to fight for it. Why would I be inclined to trust the analysis of someone who just rolls over because they don't have an absolute majority? Oh I wouldn't take it that far. I'm just saying don't act like you have pocket aces when you really have 2/7 off suit. Those aren't the same hands. In other, more important news than this circular firing squad, it seems like the president is going to try and block funding for mail in voting. Awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, DMC said: Hm..trying to figure out your point here. I completed the census months ago and I don't really remember, but looking here (not sure if the link will take you there exactly, but it's question 9), my answer clearly just should be white: I don't see, nor recall, any other questions on the census form that would in any way be able to politicize that designation - other than the fact that I'm white. So, I'm really not sure what you're referring to in terms of what I should be uncomfortable with. Can you provide any specific examples? The data on those who designate themselves as "American" of course does not come from the 2020 census, because that data is still being collected and is not analyzed yet. And the exact wording of questions on ethnicity and race has changed over the censuses. The 2000 census included a question that asked "What is this person's ancestry or ethnic origin?" and asked people to write out an answer, not check a box by a list of alternatives. This question was also on the 1980 and 1990 censuses. People who just wrote "American" as their ancestry on that question are who I am talking about. http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20041204015245/http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf As far as I can tell this question was not on the 2010 census, at least not on short forms most people filled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ormond said: The 2000 census included a question that asked "What is this person's ancestry or ethnic origin?" and asked people to write out an answer, not check a box by a list of alternatives. This question was also on the 1980 and 1990 censuses. People who just wrote "American" as their ancestry on that question are who I am talking about. http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20041204015245/http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/c2kbr-35.pdf K, so from the link: Quote Seven percent of the U.S. population reported their ancestry as American. The number who reported American and no other ancestry increased from 12.4 million in 1990 to 20.2 million in 2000, the largest numerical growth of any group during the 1990s.5 This figure represents an increase of 63 percent, as the proportion rose from 5.0 percent to 7.2 percent of the population. That is a noticeable increase, and it appears they changed the item which is good. But I'm still not seeing where this has any political ramifications, or why I should be uncomfortable identifying as an American if such an item was asked (I wasn't old enough to complete the 2000 census, I don't believe the language was the same on the 2010 form but I could be wrong about that). If those were my options, what I'm I supposed to say as an alternative? Well, I'm part English, and German, and apparently Dutch from my asshole genetic grandfather I've never met, and Hungarian, and Czech. I don't care about any of that. I identify as American. Identifying myself with any of those countries would be, at the conceptual level, just as disingenuous as what Warren did which started this whole shitshow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Gorn said: It's more complex than that. A major part why I seek to emigrate to the US, and not to any of the EU countries where I could move far more easily, is that everywhere in Europe, my family would be "others" even after a couple of generations, simply because of their last names. I want my children and grandchildren to be simply "Americans" without a hyphen, and to leave behind all the crap associated with ancestry and bloodlines, because in my end of the world, that shit can get you killed once in every 50 years or so. And trust, I'm very much a left-winger. In other words, I want to dive into the "melting pot" and never look back. Notice in my post I said "most"? "Most" is not a synonym of "all". And as someone who hasn't even emigrated to the USA yet you are just not who is being discussed here, sorry. The irony of this siutation is that many recent immigrants do have an attitude similar to yours. They have historically tried to raise their children to be simply "American" and often have refused to teach them any language except English, tried to give them what they think are "American-sounding" names, etc. Then their grandchildren and greatgrandchildren often are the ones who want to revive their ethnic identity, proudly use the hyphen, and give their kids names form the original culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Oh I wouldn't take it that far. I'm just saying don't act like you have pocket aces when you really have 2/7 off suit. Those aren't the same hands. In other, more important news than this circular firing squad, it seems like the president is going to try and block funding for mail in voting. Awesome. Washington had almost 53% voter turn out for the state primary which is an 18% increase from 2016. Not sure how it breaks down along party lines, but that is a huge increase, and given what we observe as far as primary vs general election results we could see a turnout in the 80's given in 2016 we had turnout between 60% and 70% (I'm finding conflicting infromation) for the general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, DMC said: K, so from the link: That is a noticeable increase, and it appears they changed the item which is good. But I'm still not seeing where this has any political ramifications, or why I should be uncomfortable identifying as an American is such an item was asked (I wasn't old enough to complete the 2000 census, I don't believe the language was the same on the 2010 form but I could be wrong about that). If those were my options, what I'm I supposed to say as an alternative? Well, I'm part English, and German, and apparently Dutch from my asshole genetic grandfather I've never met, and Hungarian, and Czech. I don't care about any of that. I identify as American. Identifying myself with any of those countries would be, at the conceptual level, just as disingenuous as what Warren did with started this whole shitshow. The "political implications" comes from research showing that counties where a high percentage of people designated their ancestry as "American" are mostly rural counties in Appalachia and the South that also had the highest % of votes for Trump. I'm pretty sure I've seen an actual research report on that, but can't find it right now. But it's sort of obvious things would probably come out that way if you look at the map of the counties where "American" was the most common self-designation in 2000 found on Page 8 of the link. I am not saying you shouldn't designate yourself as "American" as an ethnicity if that is what you truly most identify with. Just pointing out that the majority of others in the USA who prefer the same designation are different from you politically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 58 minutes ago, Fury Resurrected said: On the stimulus negotiations- I’m surprised that this round I have not heard anyone talking about independent contractors. ALL of that unemployment expired with the CARES act, and people like personal care workers (a majority being independent contractors) will be the first impacted by more shutdowns and are having to quarantine after client exposures. Do we just not care about that anymore? I thought I had already mentioned it in one of the write-ups I did over the stimulus talks in the last thread. If I didn't, I sincerely apologize for the oversight. It's a huge deal, especially considering most/all independent contractors wouldn't be covered under Trump's executive order. But yes, you're absolutely right; something like 400,000 independent contractors filed for jobless benefits last week, but only some states (or no states) are still actually paying the expanded benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Ormond said: But it's sort of obvious things would probably come out that way if you look at the map of the counties where "American" was the most common self-designation in 2000 found on Page 8 of the link. Yes, you're right, I saw that map. Look at Kentucky! Anyway, just because those are the people that tend to identify as American as opposed to others, and they happen to be fairly to very strongly right wing, doesn't mean I shouldn't either. I enjoyed going to my uncle's dairy near Lubbock, Texas as a kid. Don't mean I agree with his politics. Or his wife's or kids or his kids' spouses for that matter. Hell, doesn't even mean I agree with how he runs his dairy and became a multimillionaire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrackerNeil Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Ordinarily, the Democrats would have tremendous leverage; there was a time when the party in power would have broken down all doors to ameliorate an economic contraction in an election year. However, we have the modern Republican Party, which cannot be counted on even to rationally safeguard its own interests, so that leverage is diminished. The GOP seems willing to accept its own defeat rather than approve more stabilization spending. That said, I think the Democrats still have the upper hand here. They stand to lose the least if shit goes awry, and there's no sense in taking a bad deal now when you can get a better one in three months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 15 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said: Washington had almost 53% voter turn out for the state primary which is an 18% increase from 2016. Not sure how it breaks down along party lines, but that is a huge increase, and given what we observe as far as primary vs general election results we could see a turnout in the 80's given in 2016 we had turnout between 60% and 70% (I'm finding conflicting infromation) for the general. What's this in response to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said: Ordinarily, the Democrats would have tremendous leverage; there was a time when the party in power would have broken down all doors to ameliorate an economic contraction in an election year. However, we have the modern Republican Party, which cannot be counted on even to rationally safeguard its own interests, so that leverage is diminished. The GOP seems willing to accept its own defeat rather than approve more stabilization spending. That said, I think the Democrats still have the upper hand here. They stand to lose the least if shit goes awry, and there's no sense in taking a bad deal now when you can get a better one in three months. Honestly, I am shocked that Senate Republicans aren't howling for a deal to be made; it's like a death pact on the Titanic. I'm wondering if Trump told McConnell that he would veto any deal that gets made and jammed McConnell up. Either that, or the fix is already in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said: I'm wondering if Trump told McConnell that he would veto any deal that gets made and jammed McConnell up. Either that, or the fix is already in. I suspect it's more just incompetence and getting a caucus to agree on anything when everyone's running scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IheartIheartTesla Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 3 hours ago, fionwe1987 said: I have uncles and auntie's trying to figure out if they knew/are related to Harris's family in Chennai. It's all gross and disgusting, because I'm sure they'd fall over in a faint/be furious if one of their daughters had a Black friend, let alone a spouse. Yes, well, down with that sort of thing and all that. I presume as in all election cycles before this the Indian-American community will reconcile its casual racism with the notion of voting for Democrats, in line with most other immigrant groups. Although with Trump and Modi being so alike, I wouldnt put it past some of them to vote Republican. Anyway, I dont know what everyone is discussing right now, so maybe there are some interesting polls out there...nope, everything still pretty much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 hour ago, IheartIheartTesla said: Anyway, I dont know what everyone is discussing right now, so maybe there are some interesting polls out there...nope, everything still pretty much the same. I'm in the middle of a very good book, but when up and about periodically deal with emails, texts, and doomscroll social media. This was funnynotfunnyyetstillfunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimTuesday Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said: What's this in response to? You talking about Trump attacking vote by mail, I should have been more clear. Washington is a vote by mail state. To my knowledge this is one of the the most recent state that votes that way. That is a significant jump, and it may be an indicator of how vote by mail might increase turnout in states that don't already have it given the current circumstances. I can't imagine that Republicans aren't looking at that and sweating a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: How? Do tell. Let's begin with the basic concepts of superiority and denigration based on one's ethnic/cultural/religious/etc. make up. Tell me, how did Warren do any of that by taking pride in what she thought was part of her ancestry? And that's not an inclusive enough definition of racism. People of color, for at least the last decade, have been working hard to expand how we understand racism to function, and that definition you shared if woefully inadequate to describe all the systemic issues in this country. Even then, it's totally arguable (and has been argued in this thread) that what Warren did was her exercising superiority over another race, and worse, denigrating the that race's heritage and culture in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrist Simon Steele Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said: I know what I said. But how many times do I have to say this, what I want and what I can accept are not the same thing. Like @TrackerNeil said, this absolutism on the left is getting rather out of hand. And no, Dems have not forced them to the table. At best so far they've gotten some waivers for poorer states not to pay the 25% ($100) on the current plan, all the while people are hurting. But that overall actually hurts blue states more than red ones. It's true, some of us on the left absolutely demand Democrats do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said: Honestly, I am shocked that Senate Republicans aren't howling for a deal to be made; it's like a death pact on the Titanic. Just to tack on to what TN said, Republicans have reached the point where you really have to question if they even meet the basic definition of a rational actor. They seem like they're close to really just letting it all burn down rather than admit defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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