Jump to content

What aspects of GRR Martin's world would you fix if you could?


Tukata12

Recommended Posts

On 8/14/2020 at 2:23 PM, Tukata12 said:

 

  • The number of cities in Westeros. There's what, a handful of big cities in Westeros? For a continent this size? It doesn't make any sense. Right now, Westeros is an area in which regions larger than several European countries combined are completely devoid of cities. Personally, I would retroactively include hundreds of cities in Westeros and the few that are mentioned very often would be really gigantic cities. 

While this is true I think there's a need for the story to keep down the number of towns and cities. It seems to me that more towns equals more trade, more trade equals greater importance from burghers and a more powerful burgher class adds an aspect to the story that would dilute the feudal political aspect.

Just like a more worked through Faith with estates, theology and stuff would also add a dimension to the world which the story would need to incorporate, but not necessarily to its gain for the story GRRM wants to tell.

In short I think that GRRM wants Asoiaf to focus on the feudal politics of a, while not secular, worldly aristocracy and thus adding the dimensions of the burghers vs nobles and church vs nobles/crown might add more encumberance for GRRM to handle as opposed to give him more stuff for the story he wants to tell.

Its really Worldbuilding 101. Don't add a ton of stuff that you don't intend to include in the story.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/19/2020 at 6:21 AM, The hairy bear said:

I agree that some of the proposed changes would make for a more interesting and realistic setting. The absence of linguistic diversity particularly bothers me: at the very least the North should speak the Old Tongue and Dorne have a very distinct Rhoynish dialect.

Some other changes that I'd introduce:

  • Make Westeros smaller. Like, reduce its size by half. You could reduce the size of the armies by the same amount, if you wish. This reduced size would work better with the idea of a culturally homogeneous Westeros, and would make it easier to swallow that the Targaryens could keep the realm together without dragons for more than a century.
  • Make the Wall lower. Again, reducing its height by half would put some sense to the idea of killing someone at the top with arrows, or scaling it with primitive equipment.
  • Reverse the coasts. Put the Stormlands and the Vale (isolationist, with more remaining influence of the First Men) on the western coast. Put the Reach and the Kingdom of the Rock (most Andalish kingdoms, with coastal cities) in the eastern coast, with KL and the Blackwater Bay between them. The Iron Islands would switch to the eastern coast too, allowing them to keep their pillaging culture on other nations of the Narrow Sea. It wouldn't hurt to make them a little bit bigger, too.
  • Reduce the time spans. The Rhoynar should have come like 600 years ago (300 before the Targs). The Andals should have come at most a thousand years ago.
  • Introduce some major changes across history. The most prominent houses now shouldn't be the same ones that were prominent centuries ago. A couple of the Seven Kingdoms could have formed a dynastic union at some time. One of them could have invaded another for a few decades. Dynasties could have changed. Great houses could have disappeared (not only in the Wars of conquest). Etc.
  • Fix the rivers. Put the sources of the rivers on mountains and vales, instead of marshes and plains. Make some of them flow north instead of south.

-Ive always thought Westeros in certain areas where severly depopulated lack developement. While there are obscenely over the top Castles for Tier 1 lords. There are hardly any other castles for vastle lords or any descriptions of holdfasts and keeps beyond that they exist.

-GRRM probably wasn't well enough versed on the  growth of dialects within early middle ages in britian to make a fantasy or a similar version of it. Whats difference between Cornish, old ancient english, Scottish, Pictish, Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Welsh, Norse, Norse French, Norse Pidgin, and french?

- I think there were many changes or transitions in most of the houses in Westeros. But when they did happen they always took the names of the former house unless it really was not politically a good idea to do so. Much is similar to the AngloSaxons lords of old who were elected as lords purely because they were historical living families in said area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As regards long-term survival of the same House, I read that there is to be a law or rule in Westeros that does not seem to exist as much in the real world: if a landed estate's family runs out in the male line, bu has an heiress, who marries an outside man, then he changes his surname to hers and not vice-versa.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Anthony Appleyard said:

As regards long-term survival of the same House, I read that there is to be a law or rule in Westeros that does not seem to exist as much in the real world: if a landed estate's family runs out in the male line, bu has an heiress, who marries an outside man, then he changes his surname to hers and not vice-versa.

Yeah, that's the most viable option and the only one that makes sense.

There are a handful of real-world examples - the male-line of the Percys died out twice, and the Staffords once (before the main line died out) - though this did not happen often.

Though I find it odd that no Florents or stormlands nobles tried to claim the Gardener or Durrandon name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Ironborn were modeled on the real Vikings; but the real Vikings in Norway had access to big areas of conifer-forested mountains for shipbuilding timber.

Someone said "I have seen the halls of the Drowned God". I know what that is like , because so have I been there ::: in scuba gear.

About filling the lungs with liquid and surviving :: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing

No need to reject magic,, because there are many magic stories. Making magic work :: in the world of the story let there be an aspect of subatomic physics that can behave as a neural network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network  .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Westeros. 
    • I'd clear up the rather confusing and contradictory information we get on how Westerosi armies are recruited, and base them more clearly and obviously on 15th century military models (be it English Wars of the Roses livery-and-maintenance system or Hungarian banderial system). Or else vary recruitment models from kingdom to kingdom.
    • Iron Islands would be increased in size some ten to twenty times, so they do not end up having military more numerous than the number of people which actually can live on the damn rocks. At the same time, Westeros would be given actual appropriate languages - Scottish (North), Norwegian (Iron Islands), German (Riverlands), Romansh (Vale), English (Westerlands), French (Reach), Welsh (Stormlands), Spanish (Dorne) and Latin (Crownlands), with Latin being lingua franca (and translated to English in book - much like Tolkien did with Westron) but regional differences being obvious from personal names (so Eddard Stark would be Eideard Lom). This is assuming that borders are not revamped to fit river basins, which would increase number of kingdoms (and thus languages) to between eleven and seventeen different kingdoms.
    • Elsewise, Iron Islands would remain the same, but Westeros would be reduced to a size no larger than one-third of what it is. In that case, it would have three distinct language groups, with noted regional languages bringing number of said languages to a couple dozen. If only three languages are retained, Westeros would be reduced down to the size of actual Great Britain.
    • Religious conflicts would be much more pronounced, with North and Iron Islands politically nearly isolated from the rest of Westeros due to them still believing in their own gods. This would make it more difficult for them to form alliances or trade agreements. In fact, there should have been crusades launched against both, similar to Northern Crusades.
    • There would be much large number of dynasties on the throne. In fact, after the extinction of dragons, it should have been impossible to form or maintain dynasties, and Seven Kingdoms themselves should have fallen apart in the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion. Elswise, replace Robert with Roberta to at least try to explain why Westeros remains cohesive.
    • If Westeros is supposed to remain cohesive for so long after death of dragons, feudal political system should be replaced with something much more akin to Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire - a (somewhat) modern and relatively centralized administrative state instead of a system based on personal vassalage. Fact that Westeros is united through dragons would make such a system nearly unavoidable, in fact.
    • Galleys would not be used for naval warfare. Rather, a combination of late-medieval ships would be used: cogs, caravels and carracks. Combat would be via missile exchange and boarding, not ramming. States with most powerful navies would be North (long coasts, big forests), massively-increased-Iron-Islands (same), Westerlands (lotta gold), Crownlands (have to patrol the Narrow Sea) and Dorne (same). Riverlands would have massive riverine navy, but modest seaborne one.
    • Each lord should rule over multiple castles as personal possessions, and these should be spread out - so Starks for example would have castles with castellans in Winterfell, but also in multiple locations all over the North. This is not counting castles held by cadet branches of each house.
  • Essos. In terms of both society and military, I would seek inspirations in cultures which were in fact really contemporary to 13th-15th century Westeros.
    • Dothraki would be based on a combination of Sarmatians, Mongols, Seljuks and pre-settlement Hungarians and Pechenegs. This would include usage of heavy cataphract-like cavalry, infantry and military engineers, as well as ruling (instead of destroying) conquered cities. This would not save them in Westeros, but would make them a legitimate threat.
    • Unsullied would be a combination of Mamluks and Janissaries. This would include recruitment, equipment, training, organization and political influence - so no castration, but instead a caste of slave soldiers who are de facto ruling several slaver cities.
    • Economy and society of Slaver's Bay would be completely revamped, with much smaller proportion of slaves, though still highly slave-dependant.
  • Both
    • Number and average size of cities would be significantly increased. Big five cities of Westeros (KIng's Landing, Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown, White Harbour) would all have between 200 000 and 500 000 residents if not more, and similarly-sized cities would be present at all regional seats (Winterfell, Sunspear, Highgarden, Casterly Rock, Riverrun, Pyke, Bloody Gate, Storm's End). Similarly, each of major cities of Essos would have 500 000 residents at least, and would rule over dozens of smaller cities and towns. And number of city-states in Essos (including Slaver's Bay) should be significantly increased.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone already said this, but more citadels. It’s odd how the only Citadel is in Oldtown, which geographically is an inconvenient spot for most of the people of Westeros. It would make sense if each major city had a Citadel; Lannisport, White Harbour, Gulltown and maybe even Kings Landing. They could all even have their own unique name, or specialize in a unique field of study. A citadel in White Harbour could be more we’ll equipped to educate about the Winter, or the freefolk, while the citadel in Lannisport might specialize in the teachings of gold, money etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Alyx Rivers said:

Something like this:

That is, why are the Freys the only ones capable of building a bridge across the Green Fork?

Well, as much as it exists in business so in the feudal world, to my understanding.

Its not a question about why no one is capable or incapable of just thinking of building another bridge. There's already another crossing at Lord Harroway's Town to the south-east of the Twins. But its who can get hold of a place where to build another bridge and then get everything together to both build that bridge an prevent the Freys and the Harroways, and later the Rootes, from squashing that attempt to take the tolls away from them?

Look at the relationship in our world between governments and big business. While it might be advantegous in the long run to see another crossing, there's no reason to think that the crown won't support the Freys and Harroways/Rootes in ensuring they control the crossings over the river.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/18/2020 at 6:58 AM, The Hoare said:

First of all, we have no reason to believe that the ironborn raided Westeros in times of peace.

conversation between sam and the captain of the galley guarding port in the old town (for example). I also wonder why do the IB keep drakkars with crews if not for raiding? just in case? for trading? pretty expensive hobby. how do they keep their pirate 'culture', the whole shaking axes and shields "ho ho ho..." if they do not raid constantly it is absurd. btw afair asha reminisces observing human sacrifice. breeding thralls does not explain the whole problem, as thralls children become free when they convert to DG. I cannot imagine many people being so fanatical to stick to old gods or the seven and remain in such bad social position. and if thralls are obtained during rebelions - how come thralls weren't set free when the rebelion was quenched?

On 8/18/2020 at 6:58 AM, The Hoare said:

Second, if the ironborn were forcely assimilated, don't you think that the ironborn lords would rebel at any chance? Even mainland lords could use the opportunity.

there are means to prevent it. just reminded me of another problem I got with them -  their culture is too alien to westeros, which is not realistic. they do not fit - just look at victarion, he lives several miles from the westerosi shore and I take impression he is sb from completely different book. considering this I think in the real world, in similar conditions their culture would not last.

 

On 8/18/2020 at 6:58 AM, The Hoare said:

Third, we have no reason to believe that IT forbidded thralldom(which the ironborn do not consider to be the same as slavery) or sacrifices. They have been doing that for centuries and the IT never punished them for it.

 again, where do they take thralls from through the last 3 centuries. it is not question of forbidding or IB ideas on thralldom, it is about tolerating raids and culturaly alien and hostile practices right under ones nose. The whole IB thing does not hold water imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, broken one said:

conversation between sam and the captain of the galley guarding port in the old town (for example). I also wonder why do the IB keep drakkars with crews if not for raiding? just in case? for trading? pretty expensive hobby. how do they keep their pirate 'culture', the whole shaking axes and shields "ho ho ho..." if they do not raid constantly it is absurd. btw afair asha reminisces observing human sacrifice. breeding thralls does not explain the whole problem, as thralls children become free when they convert to DG. I cannot imagine many people being so fanatical to stick to old gods or the seven and remain in such bad social position. and if thralls are obtained during rebelions - how come thralls weren't set free when the rebelion was quenched?

They raid Essos, of course, the Red Kraken gained his nickname while raiding the Stepstones.

I suspect that they use their ships for trade as well. We know that Asha's ship Black Wind traded all over the western coast of Westeros, and likely on the east too.

21 hours ago, broken one said:

there are means to prevent it

Yes, but Westeros would need a stronger monarchy, which isn't going to happen in the next hundred years.

21 hours ago, broken one said:

it is about tolerating raids and culturaly alien and hostile practices right under ones nose. The w

It's not a hostile practice for anyone in Westeros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

That would make Westeros nicer place to live.

There wouldn't be any noble left alive if Sati was followed.

All the males die in war, and their widows jump into their flaming pyres (which I'd lacking due to the popularity of crypts and graces)??? What about remarriage and repopulating? 

And no sjws from me. Sati, widow remarriage and all other things were banned by the British in India in the mid 19 th century after constant poking from social activists like Rammohunroy etc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

All the males die in war, and their widows jump into their flaming pyres (which I'd lacking due to the popularity of crypts and graces)??? What about remarriage and repopulating?

I have studied the subject a bit..... But don't take my word for it.....

A mandatory/absolute rule for Sati to be applicable, Is if the wife is the one who is proposing and consenting it.....

And as you have noted the male population loses half of its number in every war..... There were plenty wars in feudal India.... But as we know India didn't die out or is low on population even before the Ban on behalf of the British government......

19 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

And no sjws from me. Sati, widow remarriage and all other things were banned by the British in India in the mid 19 th century after constant poking from social activists like Rammohunroy etc

Nah, dude..... You seem fine.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Orm said:

A mandatory/absolute rule for Sati to be applicable, Is if the wife is the one who is proposing and consenting it.....

Ever read Around the world in 80 days? 

They come across a procession in which a young Indian woman, Aouda, is to undergo sati. Since she is drugged with opium and hemp and is obviously not going voluntarily, the travelers decide to rescue her. 

4 minutes ago, Orm said:

have studied the subject a bit..... But don't take my word for it.....

I have lived in India for a looong time. So take my word for it. 

5 minutes ago, Orm said:

But as we know India didn't die out or is low on population even before the Ban on behalf of the British government...

Oh please. No disrespect, but Indians at that time had 2 or 3 wifes and a dozen kids. Unlike Westeros. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

have lived in India for a looong time. So take my word for it. 

Ok.... Given my info was from an Indian friend of mine......

With the explanation being the illiterate zealouts were the ones who made the practice mandatory and abhorrent....

In my personal opinion I find organised Religion to be B_S to control the population as to what to follow and whom to take from....

 

9 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Oh please. No disrespect, but Indians at that time had 2 or 3 wifes and a dozen kids. Unlike Westeros

You want to say India was/is backwards? Sure go ahead....

It's still mostly a Third world country anyways....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...