vorspiel Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 shes the only one were still talking about after the show ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 I'm just watching 806 again, years and an emotional roller coaster later later (and still trying to perfect the end of a good guys turns bad and destroys an Empire fantasy first novel) and I actually see far more in it than what I originally did. She is 1 of 3 main characters of course - Dany, Jon and Tyrion. But she probably has the most sympathetic and bittersweet arc. I just reheard Tyrion ask Jon about Jon being on dragon back and wondering whether Jon would have burned a city to the ground when he was pissed off. Of course, Jon was never in the same position as Dany. He was never entitled, never really abused by an older brother, never physically weaker in an interpersonal relationship and never a woman. Jon had hardship in his life but not the same emotional trauma. I still think D&D could have told it a lot better. At the same time, I think there is a valid story in there that is just rejected by modern politics and sensibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 And Drogon burning the IT is one of the best scenes in the series and cinematic history - which would not have been possible without Dany's arc. It's very symbolic of a lot of shit that's wrong with the world ATM - I just think most modern people are too gutless to face it. World need more Jons - I think that is GRRMs message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 On 8/16/2020 at 7:55 AM, ummester said: World need more Jons - I think that is GRRMs message. I think the world needs all of the Starks, not just one by themselves. Jon by himself enabled Dany to kill millions and trusted her instantly, like Sansa trusted Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said: I think the world needs all of the Starks, not just one by themselves. Jon by himself enabled Dany to kill millions and trusted her instantly, like Sansa trusted Joffrey. Fair enough response - by the end of the tv series Sansa and Bran reached a kind of toughness. Arya was a bit dumb/cliche though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 6 hours ago, ummester said: Fair enough response - by the end of the tv series Sansa and Bran reached a kind of toughness. Arya was a bit dumb/cliche though. kick-ass girl who kills bad guy is built on a cliche, I mean how differently can you do action scenes these days? I think her trying to save people from the fires of King's Landing was admirable, and true to her character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 On 12/29/2020 at 6:16 AM, Rose of Red Lake said: kick-ass girl who kills bad guy is built on a cliche, I mean how differently can you do action scenes these days? I think her trying to save people from the fires of King's Landing was admirable, and true to her character. The KL thing was fine I guess - the NK thing was naff. 5 novels and 8 seasons of magical build up for a simple knife to the guts. that was dumb. What about the magical reason for the seasons and all that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/30/2020 at 7:15 AM, ummester said: The KL thing was fine I guess - the NK thing was naff. 5 novels and 8 seasons of magical build up for a simple knife to the guts. that was dumb. What about the magical reason for the seasons and all that? Yeah the magical history was ignored, and made the world feel like a cheap snow globe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 1/1/2021 at 6:01 AM, Rose of Red Lake said: Yeah the magical history was ignored, and made the world feel like a cheap snow globe. Yea, the lack of magical explanation and address was the most offensive to me - it makes me feel Martin did not really have tight control of his world. Look, i know D&D are dumb writers and cannot write well unless they adapt - but the way this show ended up also convinced me GRRM (who I believe is generally a smart writer) let his own creation get away from him. It shits me, even now - so much potential - such a brilliant start. Its a sad fact of life that its far more easy to feel malice towards the things that let you down than the things you had limited investment or hope for from the get go. And for ASoIaF/GoTs - I had so much hope for something that should have become a greater modern mythology than LotRs or Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 On 1/3/2021 at 4:14 AM, ummester said: Yea, the lack of magical explanation and address was the most offensive to me - it makes me feel Martin did not really have tight control of his world. Look, i know D&D are dumb writers and cannot write well unless they adapt - but the way this show ended up also convinced me GRRM (who I believe is generally a smart writer) let his own creation get away from him. It shits me, even now - so much potential - such a brilliant start. Its a sad fact of life that its far more easy to feel malice towards the things that let you down than the things you had limited investment or hope for from the get go. And for ASoIaF/GoTs - I had so much hope for something that should have become a greater modern mythology than LotRs or Star Wars. I understand the let down, that seems to have happened a lot with Hollywood franchises lately, and we thought GoT would be different. I was soooo disappointed by PJ's Hobbit as well; it ruined the magic of the original LOTR trilogy. But there's a limit to how emotional I will get about it. I wasn't one of the types to sign that petition, because I truly don't care that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 On 1/5/2021 at 6:29 AM, Rose of Red Lake said: I understand the let down, that seems to have happened a lot with Hollywood franchises lately, and we thought GoT would be different. I was soooo disappointed by PJ's Hobbit as well; it ruined the magic of the original LOTR trilogy. But there's a limit to how emotional I will get about it. I wasn't one of the types to sign that petition, because I truly don't care that much. Politics overriding art I think. All art is somewhat political but, as the West collapses, art will be lost to political machinations. It's not too different to the Greeks striking the breasts and phalli of their statues - just a little more politically subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargBastard0 Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 On 8/15/2020 at 11:08 AM, vorspiel said: shes the only one were still talking about after the show ending. Of course she was, i thought that was clear long time ago. There are plenty of "statistical videos" on mentions, popularity etc. Daenerys was always on top of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 On 8/15/2020 at 3:08 AM, vorspiel said: shes the only one were still talking about after the show ending. I mean, Hitler is the main character of world war 2. That doesn't mean he's the good guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 19, 2021 Share Posted November 19, 2021 I was the fly on the wall It's ok, art imitates life and life imitates life - it all gets kind of muddled and confusing as civilization collapses - but meh, I was built for the apocalypse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 On 10/11/2021 at 6:02 PM, Lord Lannister said: I mean, Hitler is the main character of world war 2. That doesn't mean he's the good guy. In WWII terms, Dany in the show is more like Curtis Le May or Sir Arthur Harris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 22 hours ago, SeanF said: In WWII terms, Dany in the show is more like Curtis Le May or Sir Arthur Harris. No, she was more like Stalin. The dream of a better world - where all men were equal - by force. It shits me, obviously D&D didn't have the vision to bring GoTs home coz D&D lack vision, but now it seems GRRM won't even finish his own story before everything collapses around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, ummester said: No, she was more like Stalin. The dream of a better world - where all men were equal - by force. It shits me, obviously D&D didn't have the vision to bring GoTs home coz D&D lack vision, but now it seems GRRM won't even finish his own story before everything collapses around him. I don't think Stalin had that vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 Just now, SeanF said: I don't think Stalin had that vision. Society over the individual always defaults to that vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 minute ago, ummester said: Society over the individual always defaults to that vision. Stalin, despite his ostensible commitment to communism, was much more in the mould of Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great. Russia would become a great power, feared by its rivals, regardless of the human cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 1 minute ago, SeanF said: Stalin, despite his ostensible commitment to communism, was much more in the mould of Ivan the Terrible or Peter the Great. Russia would become a great power, feared by its rivals, regardless of the human cost. That is how history judged his actions - not a close assessment of the man's ideals. No-one judges themselves the villain. Everyone undertakes their own heroes journey - which is part of what was so impressive about GoTs - so many flawed heroes we could relate to. Look, it boils down to a simple paradigm, does society revolve around the individual or should the individual bow to society? Yes, I accept there is leeway and nuance - but in the end you must decide which side of the human condition you occupy. or rather, when things come undone you have no choice but to make that choice. Are you the caveman that protects the tribe from the leopard or the caveman that accepts you must follow the protector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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