Football: Ending the Season with a Title Hattrick

[baxus]

10 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Obviously Wijnaldum is hardly Barca level but to be fair Depay has been really good since moving to France and becoming more of a forward and while it's always a tossup whether that means a player's really grown into world class it's defo worth a try for him as a replacement for Suarez- although at the moment Barca have been in 'throw talent at the wall and see what sticks' mode and probably haven't actually got a plan at such for him.

If they mean to get Wijnaldum as a replacement for Messi, he's definitely not at Barca's level. If they expect him to bring some discipline and backbone to their midfield then he's way better than anything they have at the moment and would be lucky to have him, especially since he has a pretty good relationship with their new manager.

As far as Depay is concerned, I haven't seen much of him after he moved to France. From what I've seen, he's improved significantly from his time at Utd but he'd still be unable to replace Suarez right now.

10 hours ago, Heartofice said:

It was mentioned that some at Barca would have been very happy to have sold Messi, and that it might have been the only way to keep the club above water.. so badly have they screwed up the finances.

You bet they'd be happy to have sold 33 year old Messi at a 700M€ price tag with one season left on his contract.

[polishgenius]

10 minutes ago, baxus said:

If they expect him to bring some discipline and backbone to their midfield then he's way better than anything they have at the moment and would be lucky to have him,

That's fair to say and I probably should have said he's hardly the level Barca aspire to, but even in terms of the options right now I feel like there must be better players they could get for that role than Wijnaldum, and younger ones. Hell, Liverpool are apparently intending to replace him with Alcantara so they'll immediately be better off.

[ljkeane]

15 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Hell, Liverpool are apparently intending to replace him with Alcantara so they'll immediately be better off.

I would guess if Thiago wanted to go back to Barcelona we'd have been hearing about it already. So I'd think that's probably not really an option for them.

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I would guess if Thiago wanted to go back to Barcelona we'd have been hearing about it already.

 

 

Oh sure but the point there really is that Wijnaldum is a useful but timid player in a tight midfield not made up of irreplaceable stars, not that Barca should target Alcantara specifically. And even if players like Tielemans or Nevez (just off the top of my head in the Prem) are out of Barca's price range- which would be really embarrassing- I still feel in that situation they should go for less-proven youngsters who might improve than a proven, but not-always consistent aging player who won't. I guess the plan might be to get both but... I mean any way you slice it Wijnaldum being the main transfer target for Barcelona isn't a good look for them.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

15 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Obviously Wijnaldum is hardly Barca level but to be fair Depay has been really good since moving to France and becoming more of a forward and while it's always a tossup whether that means a player's really grown into world class it's defo worth a try for him as a replacement for Suarez- although at the moment Barca have been in 'throw talent at the wall and see what sticks' mode and probably haven't actually got a plan at such for him.

Both Depay and Wijnaldum are fine players in their own right. Wijnaldum has been an important first team player in a team that won the CL and EPL. But what you said about Wijnaldum being hardly the player that matches Barca's aspiration as being the top club in Europe. The very same can be said about Depay. Suarez was one of the prime forwards in the world, when Barca signed him. Can you  claim the same about Depay as his replacement? Kane (yeah, being a bit generous), Lewandowski, Aubameyang etc. That's the level of forward to match that ambition. Depay is simply not in that bracket. Ofc. those are also players that are out of reach for them now. I think if anybody reminds Barca fans now, how much they spent on Griezmann and Coutinho, they will cry.

10 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

As to Gini at Barca, he’s not the next Messi or Suarez, but that wouldn’t be his his job.  Coutinho, Griezmann and Dembele were supposed to do that.  He could easily be the next Vidal and give them a much better MF.  Plus he scores more consistently for the Dutch team when used in a more attacking role.

Different player. Vidal at his best (Juve) was a real warrior on the pitch. Ofc Barca signed him past his prime. But the (d)evolution in terms of players at Barca would be, Mascherano, Vidal, Wijnaldum. I assume they plan with Wijnaldum as a Rakitic replacement. Dembele is actually the one from the list, that made the most sense as a signing. As he is a genuine winger, and thus was not competing with Messi (or Suarez) for his place on the team, but could fit in neatly to play along side them, and whoever was bound to replace them.

Right now their post Messi and Suarez forward line would look something like that - if they sign Depay, otherwise they have to push up Griezmann, or play Braithwaite, whom they signed last year (?) for whatever reason.

                                     Depay

Fati         Griezmann (Coutinho)            Dembele

 

You can push the Griezmann-Messi-Coutinho position further up the pitch if you like.

Then you also have transfers like that Pjanic-Arthur swap with Juve. Tbf, that happened before Koeman signed, so that's not down to him. That one only makes sense, if Pjanic is the long needed replacement for Sergio Busquets. But he was hardly that awesome last season at Juve, was he?

[The Winged Shadow]

I know Gini is the local dead horse, but when I watch him play for Netherlands in an attacking role, I can't help but feel that the way he plays for Liverpool is simply how he is instructed to play by Klopp, i.e. Low risk, don't lose the ball, shield the defense etc. He lacks the long range passing of Fabinho/Trent/Virgil so he usually passes back to those guys (and ends up looking bad by comparison). Otherwise, he has good control, good in tight spaces, good at keeping the ball, good work rate, makes good runs when he is allowed to etc. Fits Liverpool's system/need very well.

None the less, certainly won't be an inspiring signing for Barca. Why couldn't they go for De Bruyne god dammit!

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Kane (yeah, being a bit generous),

 

Why? Kane is just as good as Suarez when Barca signed him and definitely a better player than Aubameyang right now. His only real problem as a player is he keeps burning out, and that's been at least partially on Spurs not getting him proper backup and supporting roles during his time.

Anyway yeah Depay isn't proven to be at that level but the point is that there's a chance he might be whereas we can pretty certainly say Wijanldum never will. I'm not especially saying that Depay as a signing is sunshine and roses and a sign all is well at Barcelona.

[Raja]

This is a very good signing

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

3 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

Why? Kane is just as good as Suarez when Barca signed him and definitely a better player than Aubameyang right now. His only real problem as a player is he keeps burning out, and that's been at least partially on Spurs not getting him proper backup and supporting roles during his time.

Anyway yeah Depay isn't proven to be at that level but the point is that there's a chance he might be whereas we can pretty certainly say Wijanldum never will. I'm not especially saying that Depay as a signing is sunshine and roses and a sign all is well at Barcelona.

I disagree with Kane being on the same level as Suarez, when Barca signed him. He was clearly an absolute elite/worldclass striker back then, and personally I feel a bit reluctant to place Kane there. I guess you can make the case, but I don't think it's as obvious as it was with Suarez. But that discussion is a bit beside the point.

With Depay, you basically hope that a 26 y.o. forward is sorta of late bloomer/sleeper, who will take a leap and make it into that bracket. That's the real issue.

As has been said, Wijnaldum could also be regarded as a bit of an unknown, because his backward/safety passes are a feature of Liverpool's play, and not Wijnaldum bug. Klopp has set up a functional midfield, who are primarily there to provide cover and stability, while the fullbacks and the two wide forwards provide the offensive output. So Wijnaldum could arguably also flourish under a different set up. IIRC he was playing a more offensive/creative role at Newcastle.

Either way, both are not really inspiring signings for Barca, I think we basically agree on that. That's not to say that their marque signings have worked out greatly for them in recent years - they obviously haven't.

[Raja]

You guys are missing out if you're not watching this spurs car crash

 

[Soylent Brown]

41 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

As has been said, Wijnaldum could also be regarded as a bit of an unknown, because his backward/safety passes are a feature of Liverpool's play, and not Wijnaldum bug.

 

To a degree they are, but you might notice that I don't have the same issue with all of Liverpool's midfielders. I understand the role that our midfield plays in Klopp's system, but Wijnaldum goes way way beyond that.

Klopp's strategy isn't for the more able midfielders to timidly pass to Joe Gomez so he can brainlessly hoof it forward, but that's what happens over and over again when we're at home against a teams that sit back.

[BigFatCoward]

Pleased de Bruyne won player of the year. It always sits better when it's a creative player rather than a plodder like Henderson. 

[Soylent Brown]

I don't think Henderson gets the credit he deserves.

Which is not to say he should have won. KdB was by far and away the best player this season.

[polishgenius]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I guess you can make the case, but I don't think it's as obvious as it was with Suarez.

 

It is a bit of an aside but I genuinely don't get why people still doubt whether Kane is a world class forward. The only striker in the world right now who's definitely better than him is Lewandowski, and he's been consistent for what, four or five seasons now? Dropping off a bit but that's pretty much in line with the Spurs creative line falling apart behind him. He's an elite goalscorer and a great pressing and support forward. He might not necessarily fit into a Barca gameplan as well as Suarez did coz he's not a tiki-taka passer and that, but at the same time if he moved to a team with more consistent creation and where he had to carry less of the work up front than he often has for Spurs, he'd absolutely rattle them in.

He might well Shearer it and never move, mind.

 

eta: Henderson's become a really good midfielder, but I think he falls somewhere in between where some Liverpool fans put him - he should defo not have been in the running for best player, not close- and where the detractors want to. He does the job he needs to do but the focus in that Liverpool team is not midfield. Not a completely dissimilar situation to the late Fergie years when our midfield 3 was Carrick, Fletcher and Park - fine players all (and Carrick obviously could pass but his job was mainly to sit very deep and play wide or straight to the forwards, almost never through the center) but more of a good busy unit than individually star players.

[Pdor]

18 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Then you also have transfers like that Pjanic-Arthur swap with Juve. Tbf, that happened before Koeman signed, so that's not down to him. That one only makes sense, if Pjanic is the long needed replacement for Sergio Busquets. But he was hardly that awesome last season at Juve, was he?

About Pjanic, (I may be biased, I never liked him) here is what I think. At his best (Rome) was the typical Balkan player: incostant and indolent, but with some very good moments (like Vučinić or Brozović). Now he is even worse than that, he plays like he he is wearing slippers and all he does is slow down the game by holding the ball for too long and than making horizontal passages.

Pjanic-Arthur swap was all about capital gain, but I still can't believe Barca fell for that.. Well, good for Juve

[Mark Antony]

12 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I disagree with Kane being on the same level as Suarez, when Barca signed him..

Yeah Suarez was clearly 3rd best player in the world 13/14. Playing at Messi/Ronaldo levels and proved it with his numbers his first couple seasons at Barca. 
 

[baxus]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:35 AM, polishgenius said:

That's fair to say and I probably should have said he's hardly the level Barca aspire to, but even in terms of the options right now I feel like there must be better players they could get for that role than Wijnaldum, and younger ones. Hell, Liverpool are apparently intending to replace him with Alcantara so they'll immediately be better off.

But Liverpool is not replacing Wijnaldum with Alcantara. They are going for some additional options in their midfield and improving creativity when it comes to passing. They are different players, giving manager different possibilities, both tactically and technically.

Btw, every single team should aspire to adding some discipline and backbone to their midfield. 

[Heartofice]

13 hours ago, Raja said:

You guys are missing out if you're not watching this spurs car crash

 

Danny Rose really stood out in that episode.. and not in a good way! I always thought he was quite a nice, laid back and unassuming guy, I mean sure, he isn't the same player he used to be and he's made quite a few major mistakes on the pitch, for Spurs and England, but I liked him.

But he does not come across well here. I think he is well within his rights to want to leave, if he can't get the left back slot in front of Davies and Vert then there is a serious issue, but like he said, he didn't play well, he hasn't played well. 

What the show didn't mention I think also was that Jose playing Aurier on the right means that he can't (or won't) play such a reckless attacking fullback on the left as well. Vert and Davies are both more defensively solid.. supposedly.

 

[Rorshach]

Well, if nothing else, we should have a better central midfiled this year than what we've had the last couple of seasons. 

Will be interesting to see how they should line up, and who - if any - who won't get too much game time. Gomes, Allan, Doucouré, Hamish - they all like to be central...

Might push Hamish out right and let him drift in, but that puts a lot of pressure on Coleman, and he's not playing the entire season. Also, if we do that, we'll still have to play five in midfield - so that puts Richarlison out left. Also unsure about who of Gomes and Doucouré should be furthest forward.

Hmm.. Lots of questions. As long as it limits Walcott to cameos off the bench, I'm happy.

[Iskaral Pust]

3 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Well, if nothing else, we should have a better central midfiled this year than what we've had the last couple of seasons. 

Will be interesting to see how they should line up, and who - if any - who won't get too much game time. Gomes, Allan, Doucouré, Hamish - they all like to be central...

Might push Hamish out right and let him drift in, but that puts a lot of pressure on Coleman, and he's not playing the entire season. Also, if we do that, we'll still have to play five in midfield - so that puts Richarlison out left. Also unsure about who of Gomes and Doucouré should be furthest forward.

Hmm.. Lots of questions. As long as it limits Walcott to cameos off the bench, I'm happy.

I thought Ancelotti has used a 4-4-2 diamond in the past, and generally likes a narrow MF.  I thought that was his plan for the new signings.  But Coleman could have a fitness challenge at his age to cover the entire right wing.