Netflix's Cuties

[Ran]

3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

In whatever small way the depiction of sexualised children is the problem that Cuties is trying to address,

The problem is not "depictions" of sexualized children. The problem it addresses -- one of them, in any case -- is the way that modern society has left young people learning most of their lessons from a bombardment of social media and mass media that depicts certain images of what it means to be "cool", what it means to be "popular", and indeed what is necessary to matter or be important. And then children emulate this because they are trying to be "cool" and "popular" and so be seen as "adult".

But this is not why the actresses do what they do in the film. They are being directed, with some care (see interviews in which the director notes a child psychologist was involved in helping the children, both during filming and now after it to deal with whatever scrutiny comes their way), to pretend to be these kind of children, and so they are pretending to be children pretending to be adults, knowing full and well that there is a meaning to what they are doing that is not at all the meaning that their characters think it has.

The film shows us the problem, and creates a kind of morality tale around it. It does it by, yes, being deliberately uncomfortable or provocative, because it makes you confront and think about these things in a way that you wouldn't if they just cut away.

The "reception" part of the argument is neither here nor there, IMO, since the fact is that this film is legal in the US, in France where it was made, and indeed everywhere else that has sane laws and sane societies that are not wrapped up in paranoia. This film is in no wise pornographic, nor obscene, and that is, simply, that.

 

 

 

[Rippounet]

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

The "reception" part of the argument is neither here nor there, IMO, since the fact is that this film is legal in the US, in France where it was made, and indeed everywhere else that has sane laws and sane societies that are not wrapped up in paranoia. This film is in no wise pornographic, nor obscene, and that is, simply, that.

Censorship is rare in Western societies, and obscenity is subjective. Not sure why you're so intent on dismissing the fact: we cannot entirely ignore others' sense of morality, however silly or misplaced we might find it. Believe me, I don't like it either, but I acknowledge it, which is where we differ.

A mere look at certifications is also instructive:

Certification

Argentina:16 Australia:MA15+ Brazil:16 Canada:TV-MA (self-applied) Chile:16+ (Netflix self-rating, video) France:Tous publics Japan:15 (self-applied) Mexico:TV-MA (self-applied) Singapore:NC16 South Korea:15 Spain:16 United Kingdom:15 United States:TV-MA Vietnam:C18

If I'm reading this right, it seems many countries deem this movie unsuitable for children - including the UK, Spain, Australia, and... the US.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

If I'm reading this right, it seems many countries deem this movie unsuitable for children - including the UK, Spain, Australia, and... the US.

It's not and never was a film for children, no more so than Capernaüm, City of God, or The Painted Bird are. What is your point?

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

It's not and never was a film for children,

And why would that be, since -as you said yourself- the message of the movie is rather conservative?

[Ran]

15 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

And why would that be, since -as you said yourself- the message of the movie is rather conservative?

Eighth Grade has an R rating from the MPAA and a "6 or older" in Luxembourg. Do people in Luxemourg hate or abuse their children when they show them this film? Does France hate or abuse children because they rate Cuties a film suitable for a general public?

I certainly think young people will benefit from watching it, and hope they do, but with an adult accompanying them seems perfectly  reasonable as a general suggestion (though I would have no problem having my nieces watch the film without adult accompaniment; I think them both mature enough to get the message). But more significantly, I think the film is certainly important for adults to watch and think about in regards to the society they exist in and the messages it sends to young people. Parents of young boys and girls in particular may find it valuable.

Yet the important point is none of these nations consider this material obscene or pornographic. Because it's not. So this attempt to use the idea that some yahoos in the US mostly getting the vapors over a film they haven't watched and which they don't understand being some sort of signifier of obscenity feels unserious and non-productive.

 

[Rippounet]

23 hours ago, Ran said:

I certainly think young people will benefit from watching it, and hope they do, but with an adult accompanying them seems perfectly reasonable as a general suggestion

But again, why would young people need an adult?
 

I think you're perfectly aware that the film is often deemed unsuitable for children because they might be shocked and/or confused by the images and miss the message. You might reluctantly acknowledge that the images might be misinterpreted by children (because they are impressionable and don't always have critical thinking yet), but you refuse to excuse adults who might make a comparable mistake. If you allow me a guess, perhaps you believe adults have a duty to understand the intent of an author/artist, the message of their work, and that those who will not make the effort do not deserve much consideration - either they are a bigot, or a monster.
If my guess is correct, your point is irrefutable in this case, because no adult could possibly misunderstand Doucouré's intent with Cuties. My original point however was a mere reminder that intent is not always so easy to identify and that reception is thus far more important than people here seemed to be saying. To sum up, this focus on intent bothered me. It seems to me that this potentially frees artists from any moral limitations, and I am not sure whether I love this idea or hate it. In all honesty I was probably a bit curious to see whether people might attempt to defend it, but no one did, so I'll let myself out.

[All Cats Are Bad]

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[Ran]

42 minutes ago, SaltyGnosis said:

I get the impression this is maybe meant to portray what certain aspects of western culture can seem like to people who grew up in more conservative parts of the world?

I think that's a possible aspect of the film. Four of the five girls in the group are from immigrant families (possibly the 5th one as well, but not as clear to me), and there are remarks about how one of the would be "sent back to their village" if they were caught doing certain things.

[Varysblackfyre321]

https://www.chron.com/politics/article/Netflix-is-indicted-by-a-Texas-grand-jury-over-15627853.php

This may be in the realm of politics but I thought its more appropriate for this thread.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

https://www.chron.com/politics/article/Netflix-is-indicted-by-a-Texas-grand-jury-over-15627853.php

This may be in the realm of politics but I thought its more appropriate for this thread.

What an utterly ridiculous and frivolous lawsuit! A typical child’s bathing suit has less material than the dance outfits in the movie. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

What an utterly ridiculous and frivolous lawsuit! A typical child’s bathing suit has less material than the dance outfits in the movie. 

Curious to see how far it’d go though.

Honestly, think Netflix will regret releasing this in the US. Too much trouble.

[Ran]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Curious to see how far it’d go though.

Honestly, think Netflix will regret releasing this in the US. Too much trouble.

It's definitely all politics and will go nowhere. The Verge has some worthwhile comments from a defense attorney in Texas, who calls it "laughable":

Quote

The charge is one of “the dumbest and most absurd” in the state, Texas-based defense attorney Paul Saputo said. Texas’ law specifically notes that the content can’t possess any “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.” The fact that Doucouré earned a top prize from one of the most renowned film festivals in the world, and achieved critical acclaim from some of the most respected critics, proves that Cuties contains serious artistic value, according to Saputo.

 

[Melifeather]

It just makes me wonder if any of the critics have actually watched the movie?

[Zorral]

Well then, Texas has just opened the way to sue getting little girl beauty pageants -- particularly the 'talent' segments, closed, as well as a whole lot of other entrenched Texas social traditions showing little / young girls moving suggestively in brief costumes.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/7/2020 at 9:39 PM, Ran said:

It's definitely all politics and will go nowhere. The Verge has some worthwhile comments from a defense attorney in Texas, who calls it "laughable":

 

Eh. It can be partially motivated by politics.

But that doesn't mean it won't go anywhere. Or that one has to be a right-wing reactionary to see something like this as wrong both legally and morally.

Example; Nancy Peloshi has expressed similar sentiments regarding the film.

A jury simply needs to have the same visercal reaction as her.

Talk of Intentions could only go so far, regarding the actions displayed actually displayed.

On 9/27/2020 at 11:31 AM, Ran said:

The problem is not "depictions" of sexualized children. The problem it addresses --

I don't think the closeups of their butts were done without having anything in mind in how media often depicts/frames young girls, even in regards to where the camera is focused.

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well then, Texas has just opened the way to sue getting little girl beauty pageants -- particularly the 'talent' segments, closed, as well as a whole lot of other entrenched Texas social traditions showing little / young girls moving suggestively in brief costumes.

 

Eh. That’d be fine honestly. Beauty pagents always seem destructive to women in general, little girls far moreso.

Still think ”Cuties” should have been animated though. It would likely have avoided this whole mess.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

Well then, Texas has just opened the way to sue getting little girl beauty pageants -- particularly the 'talent' segments, closed, as well as a whole lot of other entrenched Texas social traditions showing little / young girls moving suggestively in brief costumes.

 

Preciously. The people complaining about this film in the US are also probably the same people that like reality TV shows about little girls beauty pageants.

This reminds me of an angry letter writer, who claimed Cam Newton dancing after he scored a touchdown was so obscene that she had to tell her child to look at the half naked cheerleaders instead.

[Ran]

People are idiots. 

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Example; Nancy Peloshi has expressed similar sentiments regarding the film.

No, she hasn't. Her daughter, who holds no elected office, apparently complained about the movie because, like an idiot, she has not watched it and just goes off the stupidity that gets repeated by others.

We are truly in the dumbest timeline. If you haven't watched the movie, you do not know what you're talking about.

[maarsen]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

People are idiots. 

No, she hasn't. Her daughter, who holds no elected office, apparently complained about the movie because, like an idiot, she has not watched it and just goes off the stupidity that gets repeated by others.

We are truly in the dumbest timeline. If you haven't watched the movie, you do not know what you're talking about.

I am still wondering why Little Miss Sunshine"s producers have not been hauled up before a judge in Texas yet.

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 hours ago, Ran said:

People are idiots. 

No, she hasn't. Her daughter, who holds no elected office, apparently complained about the movie because, like an idiot, she has not watched it and just goes off the stupidity that gets repeated by others.

We are truly in the dumbest timeline. If you haven't watched the movie, you do not know what you're talking about.

Okay bad example quite frankly.

45 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I am still wondering why Little Miss Sunshine"s producers have not been hauled up before a judge in Texas yet.

Because tradition.

If such pageant featured openly queer boys it’d immediately lambasted as child-abuse because it's not traditional.