Character Study: Robert Baratheon and Son Goku

[Lee-Sensei]

57 minutes ago, S. D said:

Why are Robert fans the worst? They always minimize rape, or worse say that Cersei deserved it for being evil.

There's even one particular weirdo who's going around saying Cersei was not actually raped because Jaime and Barristan don't mention it. I've seen them on both reddit, replying to month old threads and on this forum called Spacebattles.

It’s not one person. I’ve seen plenty of people mention that over the years and it’s a valid question.

[S. D]

5 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

It’s not one person. I’ve seen plenty of people mention that over the years and it’s a valid question.

So you have chosen to reveal yourself.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 minutes ago, S. D said:

So you have chosen to reveal yourself.

As I said, many people have made this point over the years. Do you have any explanation for why Jaime would stand outside the door while Robert raped her for 15 years?

[S. D]

Just now, Lee-Sensei said:

As I said, many people have made this point over the years. Do you have any explanation for why Jaime would stand outside the door while Robert raped her for 15 years?

You're not fooling me buddy.

Your posting style and sentence structure is the exact same.

[Lee-Sensei]

9 minutes ago, S. D said:

You're not fooling me buddy.

Your posting style and sentence structure is the exact same.

As I said, it’s not one person. Many people made arguments against it and got me to change my mind.

Now are you going to answer the question or not?

[S. D]

12 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

As I said, it’s not one person. Are you going to answer the question or not?

Fine, other people have held the same opinion.

It was still you though.

As for why they didnt mention it, there might be a few reasons:

1) They simply didn't hear it because Cersei didn't scream or yell. They're not actually in the room with Robert.

2) They don't think marital rape is a crime.

3) As some other poster on the forums  mentioned, Jaime himself acts pretty rapey towards Cersei. Cersei mentions that Jaime wouldn't take no for an answer when it came to sex to Taena. 

[Lee-Sensei]

10 minutes ago, S. D said:

Fine, other people have held the same opinion.

It's still you in reddit and Spacebattles though.

As for why they didnt mention it, there might be a few reasons:

1) They simply didn't hear it because Cersei didn't scream or yell. They're not actually in the room with Robert.

2) They don't think marital rape is a crime.

3) As some other poster on the forums  mentioned, Jaime himself acts pretty rapey towards Cersei. Cersei mentions that Jaime wouldn't take no for an answer when it came to sex to Taena. 

1) It’s certainly not just me on Reddit. Plenty of people made arguments against it there too. If you look above, there’s a post of mine from 2014. It was all of the arguments being made against it that got me to change my mind. If you think that it’s just 1 person, you’re deluding yourself.

2) Did he drug her first? They were on Aerys’ Kingsguard and they heard him raping Rhaella from outside the door. Aerys wasn’t big or strong. Robert was. Does it really make sense that they’d hear Aerys, but not Robert?

3) To an extent, this is true. In Westeros, a man is believed to have a right to have sex with his wife. The laws have only been changed around that relatively recently, but you’re incorrect if you think that there’s no concept of marital rape in a Westeros.

And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping?

4) I just disagree with you completely about Jaime. He may have been aggressive, but Cersei wanted him as George himself has stated.

5) For the record, I’m not even saying that it didn’t happen. I’m saying that it’s questionable at best. Cersei is an unreliable narrator, Robert doesn’t have a pattern of raping women (like Ramsay or Gregor, for example) and Arys and Barristan vouch for his character. Even a George has said that a Roberts a “good guy”. If in the next book, We get confirmation about it from someone around him (like Barristan). I’d accept it, but let’s remember just how much Cersei twists events.

"She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

[S. D]

Just now, Lee-Sensei said:

1) It’s certainly not just me on Reddit. Plenty of people made arguments against it there too. If you look above, there’s a post of mine from 2014. It was all of the arguments being made against it that got me to change my mind. If you think that it’s just 1 person, you’re deluding yourself.

2) Did he drug her first? They were on Aerys’ Kingsguard and they heard him raping Rhaella from outside the door. Aerys wasn’t big or strong. Robert was. Does it really make sense that they’d hear Aerys, but not Robert?

3) To an extent, this is true. In Westeros, a man is believed to have a right to have sex with his wife. The laws have only been changed around that relatively recently, but you’re incorrect if you think that there’s no concept of marital rape in a Westeros.

And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping?

4) I just disagree with you completely about Jaime. He may have been aggressive, but Cersei wanted him as George himself has stated.

1) K.

2) They heard him raping her because Rhaella screamed that he was hurting her.

3) Probably that he's hurting her in ways not exclusive to rape.

4) Didn't he only say that about the Sept scene? 

"Let Robert do as he pleases. I'll go to war with him if I must. The War for Cersei's Cunt, the singers will call it."

"Jaime, let go of me!" she raged, struggling to rise.

Instead he had kissed her. For a moment she resisted, but then her mouth opened under his.

Here's a scene where Cersei is violently resisting but Jaime forces himself on her anyway. 

[Lee-Sensei]

 

4 minutes ago, S. D said:

1) K.

2) They heard him raping her because Rhaella screamed that he was hurting her.

3) Probably that he's hurting her in ways not exclusive to rape.

4) Didn't he only say that about the Sept scene? 

"Let Robert do as he pleases. I'll go to war with him if I must. The War for Cersei's Cunt, the singers will call it."

"Jaime, let go of me!" she raged, struggling to rise.

Instead he had kissed her. For a moment she resisted, but then her mouth opened under his.

Here's a scene where Cersei is violently resisting but Jaime forces himself on her anyway. 

1) You are aware that Robert was about 6’6, well over 300 lbs and had borderline super strength. Who do you think was capable of doing more physical harm; Aerys or Robert?

2) You need to re-read it. They were well aware of Ramsay raping Lady Hornwood and later raping Jeyne/Arya.

3) He said that she was “hungry for him”. Rape is a touchy subject, but I don’t think that makes him a rapist. Jaime was sexually aggressive, but that seems to be part of the reason that a Cersei was attracted to him. This isn’t like Ramsay, Gregor or even Roose Bolton, where it’s very clear that they were raping women.

[Orm]

Oh for the love of.......

 

Why does every Thread involving Bobby B has to turn into a slugfest in overstating his less than stellar one of actions and disregarding all the extremely heroic ones???

 

Is there a pact in these forums to diss Bobby B every chance they get?

 

[S. D]

13 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

1) You are aware that Robert was about 6’6, well over 300 lbs and had borderline super strength. Who do you think was capable of doing more physical harm; Aerys or Robert?

Aerys cause he was also biting and scratching Rhaella.

EDIT: Not cool adding points after I've already answered.

2) You need to re-read it. They were well aware of Ramsay raping Lady Hornwood and later raping Jeyne/Arya.

I don't think they actually called it rape tho, and even then it was because Ramsay kidnapped Lady Hornwood and made her swear her vows at sword point, as for fake Arya they can hear her sobbing all day along. 

3) He said that she was “hungry for him”. Rape is a touchy subject, but I don’t think that makes him a rapist. Jaime was sexually aggressive, but that seems to be part of the reason that a Cersei was attracted to him. This isn’t like Ramsay, Gregor or even Roose Bolton, where it’s very clear that they were raping women.             

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/10779097/George-RR-Martin-I-never-discussed-the-rape-scene-with-Game-of-Thrones-producers.html

GRRM was only talking about the Sept scene in that quote. Can't use it to cover all the other times.

Here's another questionable passage:

He wanted to rip her gown off and turn her blows to kisses. He'd done it before, back when he had two good hands.

- Jaime's thoughts, A Feast for Crows, Jaime III

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Orm said:

Doesn't overcome the great act that is overthrowing an inbred mad Tyrant and Ridding the world of emo prince inbred Marie Sue.(another mad idiot in the making)....

But Robert left the IT susceptible to future tyrants instead of making the world a better place. As we see Joff is Aerys on crack

6 hours ago, Orm said:

What do you think Goku would do?

He wouldnt kill Lady, im sure of that. Hed save Mycha too. 

Hed probably personally question Tyrion about the knife

6 hours ago, Orm said:

But thanks for indulging me anyways....

Np. Back in the day i loved dbz. 

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

There’s no evidence that Robert raped all of the women that he slept with. What’s more likely is that they wanted to sleep with him, because of his social status and because when he was young, he was very good looking. 

Like the tavern owners daughter and the Mountain that rides

48 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Did Robert want the Iron Throne or was it thrust upon him? 

He wanted it. Desperately

[Lee-Sensei]

1 minute ago, S. D said:

Aerys cause he was also biting and scratching Rhaella.

Come on. Be reasonable. Yes. A frail old man biting and scratching her would hurt, but Robert swung around a warhammer with one hand that was so heavy that grown men could barely lift it with two. While he was black out drunk and arguing with a Cersei, Jaime tried to intervene and he shoved him to the ground casually in plate Armor.

[S. D]

1 minute ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Come on. Be reasonable. Yes. A frail old man biting and scratching her would hurt, but Robert swung around a warhammer with one hand that was so heavy that grown men could barely lift it with two. While he was black out drunk and arguing with a Cersei, Jaime tried to intervene and he shoved him to the ground casually in plate Armor.

I am being reasonable.

Again, Cersei didn't scream or yell. Might be cause she's a very proud woman being a Lannister and all, might be cause she didn't want Jaime to kill Robert, the same reason why she hid her bruises from him.

[Lee-Sensei]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

But Robert left the IT susceptible to future tyrants instead of making the world a better place. As we see Joff is Aerys on crack

He wouldnt kill Lady, im sure of that. Hed save Mycha too. 

Hed probably personally question Tyrion about the knife

Np. Back in the day i loved dbz. 

Like the tavern owners daughter and the Mountain that rides

He wanted it. Desperately

1) He gave full power to a Ned actually and he tried to straighten Joffrey out. Had he been married to anyone other than Cersei, his heirs would have probably been a decent person by Westerosi standards seeing as all of his other kids turned out fine. Joffreys cruelty probably comes from the fact that his parents were twins.

2) Robert didn’t kill Lady or Mycha. Cersei and Sandor did that, as ned says himself. He just allowed Cersei to kill Lady. Keep in mind that Cersei wanted to maim Arya and Robert called her cruel and mad. That doesn’t make him a tyrant. It makes him lazy and apathetic.

3) Robert didn’t even know about Tyrion and the knife.

4) Lol. No. Not like the tavern owner and the Mountain that Rides. More like a Theon and the Captains daughter. Do you have any example of Robert hurting a woman, besides Cersei? Surely there’s a pattern of it, like with a Gregor since that’s the comparison that you’ve chosen to make.

5) No. He didn’t.

6) I agree that Goku’s a nicer person though. Most characters in asoiaf are gray and that includes Robert.

[Lee-Sensei]

2 minutes ago, S. D said:

I am being reasonable.

Again, Cersei didn't scream or yell. Might be cause she's a very proud woman being a Lannister and all, might be cause she didn't want Jaime to kill Robert, the same reason why she hid her bruises from him.

1) You’re not being reasonable at all. It’s quite clear that Robert is far stronger than Aerys ever was.

2) Cersei said that Robert had hit her once or twice before and never on her face. One of those times was when she threatened to murder his daughter if he brought her to court. That doesn’t mean that he’s right to hit her and he feels bad about it afterwards. It just doesn’t seem to match up to his character. Do you have any other examples of him beating or raping a woman? If there’s a pattern of abuse, it would strengthen your argument. If we were talking about Gregor or Ramsay, we could easily find many examples.

[Orm]

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I agree that Goku’s a nicer person though. Most characters in asoiaf are gray and that includes Robert

Would you say they track similarities an awful lot?

ASOIAF is a dark world. But I find Bobby B to be a shonen hero if he was in an anime. ...

[S. D]

12 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) You’re not being reasonable at all. It’s quite clear that Robert is far stronger than Aerys ever was.

2) Cersei said that Robert had hit her once or twice before and never on her face. One of those times was when she threatened to murder his daughter if he brought her to court. That doesn’t mean that he’s right to hit her and he feels bad about it afterwards. It just doesn’t seem to match up to his character. Do you have any other examples of him beating or raping a woman? If there’s a pattern of abuse, it would strengthen your argument. If we were talking about Gregor or Ramsay, we could easily find many examples.

1) Rhaella had bite marks and scratches all over her body. Cersei was also being hurt, but she was only sore.

2) She said to Ned while she was putting up an appearance of strength. Could be it was more than that, considering how casually he hits her in front of Ned. 

It definitely matches up to his character. Like you said he shoved Jaime aside for standing up to him. He threw his helm at Barristan and told him to get put of his sight. He hit Joffrey when he was a child, so hard Stannis thought he killed him. He yelled at his squires. He yelled at Ned and told him to get out of his sight.

As for a pattern...we do know he got drunk and had sex with a Florent on Stannis' wedding bed. I doubt she would be into that considering she was still maiden and the shame associated with such an act. Not saying he raped her but he just took her and she acquiesced because he was the king. 

[Lee-Sensei]

11 minutes ago, S. D said:

1) Rhaella had bite marks and scratches all over her body. Cersei was also being hurt, but she was only sore.

2) She said to Ned while she was putting up an appearance of strength. Could be it was more than that, considering how casually he hits her in front of Ned. 

It definitely matches up to his character. Like you said he shoved Jaime aside for standing up to him. He threw his helm at Barristan and told him to get put of his sight. He hit Joffrey when he was a child, so hard Stannis thought he killed him. He yelled at his squires. He yelled at Ned and told him to get out of his sight.

As for a pattern...we do know he got drunk and had sex with a Florent on Stannis' wedding bed. I doubt she would be into that considering she was still maiden and the shame associated with such an act. Not saying he raped her but he just took her and she acquiesced because he was the king. 

1) I don’t know where we go from here. I’ll say this. What I believe is that Cersei and Robert hated each other, but a King needs heirs. So when he went to her he got drunk first. Cersei probably didn’t want to sleep with him, but by law he was allowed to “claim his rights”. To me it was probably a “lie back and think of England” situation.

I waited, so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered Robert’s drunken groping, Jaime’s jealousy, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn.

Note that she calls it “drunken groping”.

[Hugorfonics]

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

He gave full power to a Ned actually

He was no good either, anxiously giving the crown to Stannis the tyrant

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

and he tried to straighten Joffrey out.

When?

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Had he been married to anyone other than Cersei, his heirs would have probably been a decent person by Westerosi standards seeing as all of his other kids turned out fine. Joffreys cruelty probably comes from the fact that his parents were twins.

The other two turned out fine

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert didn’t kill Lady or Mycha

Robert ordered the death of Lady.

Robert decreed Joffrey to be innocent, thusly Sandor concluded Mycha was guilty and therefore a dead child walking

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Robert didn’t even know about Tyrion and the knife

Because he puts his fingers in his ears and screams "to hell with her (Cat) reasons" in his dignified kingly tantrum

25 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Lol. No. Not like the tavern owner and the Mountain that Rides

The king says present your daughters, end of discussion. Renly says it happened all the time. Eventually its a numbers game, dudes a rapist

26 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

No. He didn’t

If he didnt want to become king he wouldnt have fucking sat down.

.

It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately."

.