Riverlands response to mountain raids

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tell that to the foot. 

So I do agree that sending a bunch of Vances to lose is not great for the war effort, neither is facing the kingslayer without any backup. However while Vances and Tullys were losing smallfolk were not getting slaughtered. 

If every life matters, a concept alien to the likes of Tywin or Eddard, then Edmure did the best any man could. His strategy is sound, his nephew and sister are powerful in their own right and would surley soon intervene, especially with old Hoster in dire need. Not only do I think the strategy sound but also brave and heroic.

Even if Edmure had centralized his army I dont think hed be able to obliterate Tywins

Tywin and Ned think like that not because they don't care about their peasants, even Tywin understand that having your peasants being slaughtered reflects badly on the Lord, but because in war you can't defend every settlement so you have to defend the most important ones.

What good it did to the smallfolk Edmure's play?? Tywin invaded the Riverlands and made sure that even the Rivers burned or were raped. Which wouldn't have happened had Edmure not chosen such an idealistic approach and his nephew and sister would have had a far easier time in their war if they fought a weakened Tywin without a foothold on the Riverlands rather than... Well, what happened.

[Tywin Manderly]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, Bernie Mac said:

King Robert disagreed with that,

  That is a textbook example of Robert's abysmal attitude towards the tedious matter actually governing his country. He is annoyed that an issue has arisen which he cannot ignore, a loathed distraction from his passtimes: eating, drinking, feasting, hunting and whoring.

On 8/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, Bernie Mac said:

so I'm not sure that concept exists in Westeros.

It is a bare necessity in a country where there are only a few places that have something that has the semblance of the presence of a rudimentary permanent police force.

On 8/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Ned clearly does not think Cat had the authority to do what she did as he tries to cover for her by saying he commanded Cat to do what she did.

Ned does that for political and personal reasons in order to protect his wife from the inconvenience of the inevitable Lannister retalition, because even the Lannisters cannot (publically) go against the command of the Hand of the King.  

On 8/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It was a bit dicey. A lord administers justice in his own lands. Catelyn would have had a much stronger claim if she had taken Tyrion in the north. Even in our own world, there are always dangers in taking on the rich and powerful, regardless of the legality of your auction or how much evidence you have… and the high lords of Westeros are a deal more prickly about their honor.

So arresting the King's brother-in-law, the son of the most powerful Lord in Westeros, is not as simple as a citizen's arrest. Cat was in the wrong on this one according to the King and her own husband did not feel comfortable with what she did.

Dicey is the key word here. What Catelyn has done is not wrong or unlawful, but dangerous because her arrestee is from a rich and powerful house. 

It is also seemingly legally untested and poorly chartered territory, since it will not have happened too often that, for example, a riverman arrests an ironman in the Vale for what he has done in Dorne. Most such citizen's arrests will naturally be carried out near one's home given the very limited distances the average inhabitant of the Seven Kingdoms travels.

Making a citizen's arrest of someone rich and powerful will even in our present day and age lead to inconvenience. 

As for Ned feeling uncomfortable with what Catelyn did, that is, of course, very logical because he knows that there will be quite the backlash from livid Lannisters.

On 8/26/2020 at 4:24 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion's not even been accused of a crime yet. Cat can't just claim he is an outlaw and he becomes one.

Had he been an outlaw, recognized as such by the crown, then Cat or anyone could have made the arrest. But the wife and daughter of a Lord can't just decide on a whim that another high ranking noble she encounters in an Inn is suddenly an outlaw.

Medieval law is rudimentary, but not that rudimentary.

Catelyn is his accuser, and what she did is basically instituting a private prosecution to bring Tyrion to justice before the Iron Throne as well as taking him into pre-trial custody for questioning and further inquiries.

Needless to say that Catelyn would liked to have avoided Tyrion to better prepare her case, but very unfortunately for her Marilion blew her cover. 

[The Hoare]

11 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

  That is a textbook example of Robert's abysmal attitude towards the tedious matter actually governing his country. He is annoyed that an issue has arisen which he cannot ignore, a loathed distraction from his passtimes: eating, drinking, feasting, hunting and whoring.

And yet Robert was still the king, and he clearly considered it a kidnap.

11 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

Catelyn is his accuser, and what she did is basically instituting a private prosecution to bring Tyrion to justice before the Iron Throne as well as taking him into pre-trial custody for questioning and further inquiries.

If this was true she would've brought Tyrion to King's Landing, and not to her sister in the Vale. If it's the King's justice she that she wants, why not bring him to the king?

[Tywin Manderly]

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

And yet Robert was still the king, and he clearly considered it a kidnap.

King Robert is not the sharpest knife in the box, and very unfortunately in the Seven Kingdoms the buck stops with him.

4 hours ago, The Hoare said:

If this was true she would've brought Tyrion to King's Landing, and not to her sister in the Vale. If it's the King's justice she that she wants, why not bring him to the king?

For security reasons, of course. By going to the Vale she avoids being intercepted by the Lannisters, which for a certainty would happen if she would travel to King's Landing, Riverrun or Winterfell. Behind the Bloody Gate and within the safety of the Eyrie, Catelyn is beyond the reach of the Lannisters. 

In the Eyrie she can question Tyrion and also send out ravens in order to make the necessary arrangements to bring him to justice before the Iron Throne, such as obtaining a strong escort of knights and men-at-arms as well as safe passage to King's Landing under the protection of the King's banner. 

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

King Robert is not the sharpest knife in the box, and very unfortunately in the Seven Kingdoms the buck stops with him.

For security reasons, of course. By going to the Vale she avoids being intercepted by the Lannisters, which for a certainty would happen if she would travel to King's Landing, Riverrun or Winterfell. Behind the Bloody Gate and within the safety of the Eyrie, Catelyn is beyond the reach of the Lannisters. 

In the Eyrie she can question Tyrion and also send out ravens in order to make the necessary arrangements to bring him to justice before the Iron Throne, such as obtaining a strong escort of knights and men-at-arms as well as safe passage to King's Landing under the protection of the King's banner. 

Of course the big wrench in the plan proved to be Lysa.

[Tywin Manderly]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Of course the big wrench in the plan proved to be Lysa.

Indeed! Catelyn was, however, blissfully unaware of the mental state of her sister, prior to arriving at the Eyrie. 

[Angel Eyes]

32 minutes ago, Tywin Manderly said:

Indeed! Catelyn was, however, blissfully unaware of the mental state of her sister, prior to arriving at the Eyrie. 

Didn't Tyrion warn her?

[Tywin Manderly]

19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Didn't Tyrion warn her?

Tyrion warned her about Littlefinger, not Lysa.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Tywin Manderly said:

Tyrion warned her about Littlefinger, not Lysa.

Ok. So if he warned Catelyn about Littlefinger, why did he keep her in the dark about Lysa? He knew how unstable she was (she'd only left the capitol a few months earlier and Tyrion visits every so often) but doesn't say a thing even though telling Catelyn would have been beneficial.

[Tywin Manderly]

36 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Ok. So if he warned Catelyn about Littlefinger, why did he keep her in the dark about Lysa? He knew how unstable she was (she'd only left the capitol a few months earlier and Tyrion visits every so often) but doesn't say a thing even though telling Catelyn would have been beneficial.

The attack of the mountain clans threw a spanner in the works before Tyrion could get round to informing Catelyn about Lysa's mental state.

[Bernie Mac]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:42 PM, Tywin Manderly said:

  That is a textbook example of Robert's abysmal attitude towards the tedious matter actually governing his country.

That seems to be a separate argument. Regardless if Robert was a poor king or not does change the fact that the King and the Hand did not see Cat's actions as legitimate.

 

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 He is annoyed that an issue has arisen which he cannot ignore, a loathed distraction from his passtimes: eating, drinking, feasting, hunting and whoring.

Sure. He orders Ned to have his wife release the Imp. Should he have done more to ensure peace? Certainly!

But this seems to have nothing to do with the discussion about the legitimacy of Cat's actions, which seem to be breaking the King Peace per the actual King.

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It is a bare necessity in a country where there are only a few places that have something that has the semblance of the presence of a rudimentary permanent police force.

No, it is not. People can not just proclaim others as criminals on a whim. That is what Cat did. On a whim she abducted him.

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Ned does that for political and personal reasons in order to protect his wife from the inconvenience of the inevitable Lannister retalition,

Yes, he does do it for political reasons. His wife had no authority to do what she did, so he lies to cover her ass.

Ned is a hugely honourable guy. He does not just lie for the sake of it.

 

 

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because even the Lannisters cannot (publically) go against the command of the Hand of the King.  

This has nothing to do with the Lannisters. It is Ned lying to Robert's face.

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Dicey is the key word here. What Catelyn has done is not wrong or unlawful, but dangerous because her arrestee is from a rich and powerful house. 

That makes zero sense considering GRRM says it would be more acceptable if she arrested him in the North.

Tyrion is still from a rich and powerful House if he is arrested in the North, so this is not a valid point. Not at all.

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It is also seemingly legally untested and poorly chartered territory, since it will not have happened too often that, for example, a riverman arrests an ironman in the Vale for what he has done in Dorne.

We are not talking about an average man, we are talking about the brother-in-law to the King.

Not all men are born equal. Cat would have got away with what she did with commoners, perhaps even lesser nobles. But not to someone of Tyrion's station.

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Most such citizen's arrests will naturally be carried out near one's home given the very limited distances the average inhabitant of the Seven Kingdoms travels.

You keep on claiming citizen's arrest like it is an everyday thing.

There are 5 books, a few samples chapters of the 6th plus the Dunk and Egg books, Fire and Blood and the History of Ice and Fire. Where are you getting this citizen's arrest from?

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Making a citizen's arrest of someone rich and powerful will even in our present day and age lead to inconvenience. 

Can we get back to ASOIAF and give your evidence for it those books?

In medieval England a citizen could make an arrest against a person the Sheriff had already branded an outlaw. They could not just accuse someone on the spot of committing a crime and then abduct them.

The fact that Cat did not bother trying to take Tyrion to Kings Landing also works against this.

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As for Ned feeling uncomfortable with what Catelyn did, that is, of course, very logical because he knows that there will be quite the backlash from livid Lannisters.

Again, he is saying this to Robert.

But this claim makes zero sense considering the Lannisters were going to be pissed regardless. You are grasping right now.

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Catelyn is his accuser,

Is she? She seems to have blamed Tyrion based on a private conversation she had with Littlefinger.

Littlefinger is the accuser in this scenario given Tyrion was not present when the attempt on Bran was made and the only thing linking him to it is the word of Littlefinger.

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and what she did is basically instituting a private prosecution to bring Tyrion to justice before the Iron Throne

Except that is demonstrably false. Do you know how we know that? Because she was not taking Tyrion to the Iron Throne.

 

Can you please stop making things up or assuming no one else in the forum is familiar with the books.

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as well as taking him into pre-trial custody for questioning and further inquiries.

lol you say that like that is what she attempted to do.

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Needless to say that Catelyn would liked to have avoided Tyrion to better prepare her case, but very unfortunately for her Marilion blew her cover. 

Which has nothing to do with whether what she did was in the right. It was not.