Riverlands response to mountain raids

[Alex Gu]

I was just wondering why the river Lords did not hunt down Gregor and the mountain men themselves and instead went and ask for Ned to help them considering the river Lords could easily have gotten a few hundred knights and mounted man at arm's to chase down the mountain men(surely the riverlands have enough calvary to hunt down a couple of hundred raiders at most) , or offer lands and tittle for the capture of the mountain and or a cash reward for the capture of the mountain and his men.

[nyser1]

18 minutes ago, Alex Gu said:

I was just wondering why the river Lords did not hunt down Gregor and the mountain men themselves and instead went and ask for Ned to help them considering the river Lords could easily have gotten a few hundred knights and mounted man at arm's to chase down the mountain men(surely the riverlands have enough calvary to hunt down a couple of hundred raiders at most) , or offer lands and tittle for the capture of the mountain and or a cash reward for the capture of the mountain and his men.

Suspecting it was Tywin Lannister's bannerman without proof and going after themselves, particularly when it seems like they have a tendency to do things on an individual basis, is quite dangerous. They wanted support.

[Trigger Warning]

Because if they just marched off into the Westerlands of their own accord Tywin would fall on them like a hammer. Gregor never had any intention of giving battle in the Riverlands he'd have ran. 

[Tywin Manderly]

From: AGoT - Eddard IX

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"Edmure agrees, we must pay Gregor Clegane back his bloody coin," Ser Marq declared, "but old Lord Hoster commanded us to come here and beg the king's leave before we strike."

Thank the gods for old Lord Hoster, then. Tywin Lannister was as much fox as lion. If indeed he'd sent Ser Gregor to burn and pillage—and Ned did not doubt that he had—he'd taken care to see that he rode under cover of night, without banners, in the guise of a common brigand. Should Riverrun strike back, Cersei and her father would insist that it had been the Tullys who broke the king's peace, not the Lannisters. The gods only knew what Robert would believe.

 

Lord Hoster commanded his bannerman to turn to the Crown to avoid breaking the King's Peace.

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 minutes ago, Tywin Manderly said:

From: AGoT - Eddard IX

Lord Hoster commanded his bannerman to turn to the Crown to avoid breaking the King's Peace.

This plus guarding the Golden Tooth meant that the mountain could be caught in the act returning to the WL. Relatively hard to deny your bannerman was breaking the king's peace if you can produce him as a captive or corpse with no identifying marks just like the witnesses said.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

This plus guarding the Golden Tooth meant that the mountain could be caught in the act returning to the WL. Relatively hard to deny your bannerman was breaking the king's peace if you can produce him as a captive or corpse with no identifying marks just like the witnesses said.

Except the Lannister armies plowed through the Golden Tooth like a broken dam.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Except the Lannister armies plowed through the Golden Tooth like a broken dam.

Right. No plan is perfect admittedly. Such gross violation of the king's peace would be untenable under a strong king like Robert in lieu of say the Warden of the West's grandson who's a psychopath

[The Hoare]

8 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

I was just wondering why the river Lords did not hunt down Gregor and the mountain men themselves and instead went and ask for Ned to help them considering the river Lords could easily have gotten a few hundred knights and mounted man at arm's to chase down the mountain men(surely the riverlands have enough calvary to hunt down a couple of hundred raiders at most) ,

They couldn't win a war agains't the Westerlands on their own, and it was Catelyn that broke the King's Peace in the first place.

8 hours ago, Alex Gu said:

or offer lands and tittle for the capture of the mountain and or a cash reward for the capture of the mountain and his men.

Only the king can grant lands

[Tywin Manderly]

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

They couldn't win a war agains't the Westerlands on their own, and it was Catelyn that broke the King's Peace in the first place.

From: AGoT - Catelyn V

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Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came a guest into my house, and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

Catelyn was actually performing the Westerosi equivalent of a Citizen's Arrest, invoking the King's Peace by arresting Tyrion in the name of King Robert and the feudal lords who are bound to uphold the King's Peace in order to bring Tyrion to justice.

2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Only the king can grant lands

Nope. Any Lord can grant a portion of his feudal land holdings to any person, making such individual a vassal of his in the process. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

 

Catelyn was actually performing the Westerosi equivalent of a Citizen's Arrest, invoking the King's Peace by arresting Tyrion in the name of King Robert

King Robert disagreed with that, so I'm not sure that concept exists in Westeros.

"Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned."

Ned clearly does not think Cat had the authority to do what she did as he tries to cover for her by saying he commanded Cat to do what she did.

GRRM talks about the situation

It was a bit dicey. A lord administers justice in his own lands. Catelyn would have had a much stronger claim if she had taken Tyrion in the north. Even in our own world, there are always dangers in taking on the rich and powerful, regardless of the legality of your auction or how much evidence you have… and the high lords of Westeros are a deal more prickly about their honor.

So arresting the King's brother-in-law, the son of the most powerful Lord in Westeros, is not as simple as a citizen's arrest. Cat was in the wrong on this one according to the King and her own husband did not feel comfortable with what she did.

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and the feudal lords who are bound to uphold the King's Peace in order to bring Tyrion to justice.

Tyrion's not even been accused of a crime yet. Cat can't just claim he is an outlaw and he becomes one.

Had he been an outlaw, recognized as such by the crown, then Cat or anyone could have made the arrest. But the wife and daughter of a Lord can't just decide on a whim that another high ranking noble she encounters in an Inn is suddenly an outlaw.

Medieval law is rudimentary, but not that rudimentary.

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Nope. Any Lord can grant a portion of his feudal land holdings to any person, making such individual a vassal of his in the process. 

Kind of true . Westeros is huge, while Kings can give away lands in any part of the vast continent, so to can their Lords. Though I imagine there is probably some legal work that needs to be done, some stamp of approval from the Crown before its official. Especially if it is taking away land from one Lord to another. The Crown would likely need to be informed of the reason why and the party that is being deprived of land, should they travel to court, be able to make their case for why this is wrong.

[frenin]

If the Riverlords marched into the West without the Throne's leave, they commit treason.  That's a very dumb plan.

Hoster was not having that. 

[Lord Lannister]

Tywin was basically in a win-win scenario no matter what happened there. He sends Gregor under no flag to raid, loot and pillage. So he has deniability even if it's fairly obvious what's going on. If the Riverlords don't respond, he gets to punish them and wins. If the Riverlords spread their forces out to defend everything, he wins. If the Riverlords retaliate against the Westerlands, he has justification to crush them and wins. 

[frenin]

On 8/26/2020 at 5:47 PM, Lord Lannister said:

Tywin was basically in a win-win scenario no matter what happened there. He sends Gregor under no flag to raid, loot and pillage. So he has deniability even if it's fairly obvious what's going on. If the Riverlords don't respond, he gets to punish them and wins. If the Riverlords spread their forces out to defend everything, he wins. If the Riverlords retaliate against the Westerlands, he has justification to crush them and wins. 

Or Ned and Hoster, who are not portrayed as idiots, can see what he's doing and spank him and off Gregor for the troubles. The only reason why Tywin got out of that without scratch was because both Robert and Ned unexpectedly died soon after and his grandson ascended and suddenly  there was no one left  powerful or with authority enough to keep him in check.

Take those deaths out of the picture and Tywin is forced to let Gregor go.

Besides Tywin defeated the Riverlords because their forces were spread then, otherwise it could've gone either way, as the Fords proved.

[Bernie Mac]

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

Or Ned and Hoster, who are not portrayed as idiots, can see what he's doing and spank him and off Gregor for the troubles. The only reason why Tywin got out of that without scratch was because both Robert and Ned unexpectedly die soon after and his grandson ascended and suddenly  there was no one powerful enough to put him in check.

Take those deaths out of the picture and Tywin is forced to let Gregor go.

Nothing that we have seen of Robert suggests he would have forced anyone to do something like that.

Reparations to those villages, certainly, but Robert saw both sides as liable in this situation.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nothing that we have seen of Robert suggests he would have forced anyone to do something like that.

Reparations to those villages, certainly, but Robert saw both sides as liable in this situation.

Except that we know that he was told about the Gregor incident and he did not do anything to amend Ned's decree.  He doesn't have to openly force anyone to do anything, the only thing he needs to do is not correct and he would be endorsing him and he would be tacitly forcing Tywin to oblige.

 

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“Ought to do the same for you. Can’t leave a man to hunt in peace. Ser Robar found me. Gregor’s head. Ugly thought. Never told the Hound. Let Cersei surprise him.” His laugh turned into a grunt as a spasm of pain hit him. “Gods have mercy,” he muttered, swallowing his agony.

 

So unless Robert started caring about a matter he honestly didn't seem to give two damns about, Tywin had no other way to force his will without commiting open treason.

 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Or Ned and Hoster, who are not portrayed as idiots, can see what he's doing and spank him and off Gregor for the troubles. The only reason why Tywin got out of that without scratch was because both Robert and Ned unexpectedly die soon after and his grandson ascended and suddenly  there was no one powerful or with authority enough to put him in check.

Take those deaths out of the picture and Tywin is forced to let Gregor go.

Besides Tywin defeated the Riverlords because their forces were spread then, potherwise it could've gone any way, as the Fords proved.

That's what always got to me about the Tywin worshippers. They make him out to be like the Borgia Pope and Edward Longshanks wrapped into one. I'll happily say he was very smart and very effective as an administrator, but he was nothing special as a military leader. His fight against the Reynes and Castameres was never in doubt because of how many houses remained loyal to him, it was going to end badly for them regardless. For that matter, the Reynes and Tarbecks were all easy villains to beat, considering how idiotic they were in their arrogance (Roger Reyne fights alongside Tywin in war and doesn't expect him to ever resort to military might?).

But yeah, Edmure Tully effectively holds ground against Tywin, and there's no hard evidence either way in the argument of Edmure's competence and Tywin's incompetence, so I feel safe in my belief that Edmure is his father's son, the best living Lord Paramount in the series (since Ned's dead) and an effective military leader who is overshadowed by Robb being a child prodigy. 

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Except that we know that he was told about the Gregor incident and he did not do anything to amend Ned's decree. 

We have no idea what he was about to do about Ned's decree. A boar intervened before anything of consequence was done.

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He doesn't have to openly force anyone to do anything, the only thing he needs to do is not correct and he would be endorsing him and he would be tacitly forcing Tywin to oblige.

Sure. But we have no idea if that would have happened. We do know from his response to Jaime putting Ned briefly in a coma that Robert's response was to avoid conflict between his most prominent supporters.

 

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

That's what always got to me about the Tywin worshippers.

Is there any real need to do this? Boil down people to 'haters', 'fanboys' and 'worshippers'. It is okay for people to have a different opinion to you on fictional characters set in a fictional universe. There is no need to go to such hyperbole to invalidate someone else's opinion.

 

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They make him out to be like the Borgia Pope and Edward Longshanks wrapped into one. I'll happily say he was very smart and very effective as an administrator,

Do they? List 5 people and their posts in this forum who have led you to this conclusion.

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but he was nothing special as a military leader.

No. Robert is probably the only truly special military leader we see in Westeros during the events of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I've probably argued this point many times, but some people seem to ignore all points made by people they consider 'worshippers' if it does not correspond with their agenda.

But Tywin's record makes him in that tier below Robert. It would seem bizarre to think he's not.

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His fight against the Reynes and Castameres was never in doubt because of how many houses remained loyal to him,

GRRM's History of the Westerlands does not paint it like that

https://georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

Roger Reyne is both a great commander, ruler of a very powerful House with many allies. Tywin was going behind his father's back and his allies were limited.

The win is portrayed as down to a difference of speed and logistics, rather than David vs Goliath. Tywin was able to have an advantage because of his organization and quickness. Most military commanders agree that these are impressive military skills for a commander to have.

If such qualities don't impress you, then fair enough. Can you please list what qualities you do find in a military commander?

 

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it was going to end badly for them regardless. For that matter, the Reynes and Tarbecks were all easy villains to beat, considering how idiotic they were in their arrogance (Roger Reyne fights alongside Tywin in war and doesn't expect him to ever resort to military might?).

That seems odd. Downplay a victory as easy because a commander seemed arrogant. When GRRM calls Roger Reyne a formidable soldier in his own right, are we to ignore that?

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But yeah, Edmure Tully effectively holds ground against Tywin, and there's no hard evidence either way in the argument of Edmure's competence and Tywin's incompetence, so I feel safe in my belief that Edmure is his father's son, the best living Lord Paramount in the series (since Ned's dead) and an effective military leader who is overshadowed by Robb being a child prodigy. 

He's really not. The nicest living Lord Paramount, certainly, but he's not the best, not by a long shot. Edmure, is the reason the Riverlands is so quickly taken, sans the Mallister and Frey lands.

At the start of the war Edmure makes the huge tactical mistake of gathering the Riverlands army and sending them out to protect small villages and towns on the Riverlands borders, essentially stripping the Riverlands of its defences and allowing Tywin to march on the major settlements almost unopposed.

Ned can see Edmure's mistake from the start. Tywin and Kevan take advantage of a neophyte lord.

"If they come again, we'll use their blood to water the fields they burnt," Ser Marq Piper declared hotly.

"Ser Edmure has sent men to every village and holdfast within a day's ride of the border," Ser Karyl explained. "The next raider will not have such an easy time of it."

And that may be precisely what Lord Tywin wants, Ned thought to himself, to bleed off strength from Riverrun, goad the boy into scattering his swords. His wife's brother was young, and more gallant than wise. He would try to hold every inch of his soil, to defend every man, woman, and child who named him lord, and Tywin Lannister was shrewd enough to know that.

---

"How is your war going?"

His uncle answered. "Well enough, for the nonce. Ser Edmure had scattered small troops of men along his borders to stop our raiding, and your lord father and I were able to destroy most of them piecemeal before they could regroup."

"Your brother has been covering himself with glory," his father said. "He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."

"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens . . . "

"Leaving you unopposed?" Tyrion said

"Not wholly," Ser Kevan said. "The Mallisters still hold Seagard and Walder Frey is marshaling his levies at the Twins."

By splitting the Riverlands army into dozens and dozens of very small groups defending small villages he ensured that the Riverlands as a whole would be taken in record time.

Edmure used all his resources to try to save a small part of the Riverlands body that was already dead and allowed the infection to spread across the entire Riverlands body.

Think of it like gangrene in the foot. The patient will plead with the doctor to save his foot, that he needs his foot. A surgeon will ignore his pleads and simply take the foot as the risk to the rest of the body is of greater importance than saving the foot.

Edmure is a good guy, but he absolutely screwed the pooch in A Game of Thrones when it came to defending his homeland.

 

[frenin]

On 8/27/2020 at 6:00 AM, Bernie Mac said:

We have no idea what he was about to do about Ned's decree. A boar intervened before anything of consequence was done.

 

On 8/27/2020 at 6:00 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. But we have no idea if that would have happened. We do know from his response to Jaime putting Ned briefly in a coma that Robert's response was to avoid conflict between his most prominent supporters.

 

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“Ought to do the same for you. Can’t leave a man to hunt in peace. Ser Robar found me. Gregor’s head. Ugly thought. Never told the Hound. Let Cersei surprise him.” His laugh turned into a grunt as a spasm of pain hit him. “Gods have mercy,” he muttered, swallowing his agony.

 

Yes we have a very good idea what Robert would've done, he would've shrugged it off and keep minding his business because that's exactly what he does when he's informed about the matter. He literally says that he didn't inform Sandor and let Cersei tell him for him that his brother was, officially, a dead man walking. He didn't care, if Robert had cared, he would have sent an inmediate courrier to amend Ned's decree

 

And last time i checked, Gregor last name was Clegane not Lannister, there is no reason for why Robert would feel the need to even pretend to care about his fate. 

 

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

By splitting the Riverlands army into dozens and dozens of very small groups defending small villages he ensured that the Riverlands as a whole would be taken in record time.

Edmure used all his resources to try to save a small part of the Riverlands body that was already dead and allowed the infection to spread across the entire Riverlands body.

Think of it like gangrene in the foot. The patient will plead with the doctor to save his foot, that he needs his foot. A surgeon will ignore his pleads and simply take the foot as the risk to the rest of the body is of greater importance than saving the foot.

Edmure is a good guy, but he absolutely screwed the pooch in A Game of Thrones when it came to defending his homeland.

Tell that to the foot. 

So I do agree that sending a bunch of Vances to lose is not great for the war effort, neither is facing the kingslayer without any backup. However while Vances and Tullys were losing smallfolk were not getting slaughtered. 

If every life matters, a concept alien to the likes of Tywin or Eddard, then Edmure did the best any man could. His strategy is sound, his nephew and sister are powerful in their own right and would surley soon intervene, especially with old Hoster in dire need. Not only do I think the strategy sound but also brave and heroic.

Even if Edmure had centralized his army I dont think hed be able to obliterate Tywins

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tell that to the foot. 

So I do agree that sending a bunch of Vances to lose is not great for the war effort, neither is facing the kingslayer without any backup. However while Vances and Tullys were losing smallfolk were not getting slaughtered. 

If every life matters, a concept alien to the likes of Tywin or Eddard, then Edmure did the best any man could. His strategy is sound, his nephew and sister are powerful in their own right and would surley soon intervene, especially with old Hoster in dire need. Not only do I think the strategy sound but also brave and heroic.

Even if Edmure had centralized his army I dont think hed be able to obliterate Tywins

His strategy was awful unless he was intending those smaller forces as harrying forces like we see Marq Piper and Karyl Vance to Jaime's forces.  Martin takes a lot of liberties with castles falling but a fully equipped, large army would be able to sweep up spread out, disorganized resistance and even take a lot of holdfasts without much effort.