How Tywin Killed Rhaegar: A Tale of Cheats and Plotters

[Sly Wren]

How Tywin Killed Rhaegar: A Tale of Cheats and Plotters

Very Short Version:

• Tyrion implies that Tywin and Pycelle got Rhaegar killed. So, how?

• Tywin and Rhaegar were “allies” for years, plotting to kill/depose Aerys.

• Tywin knew Rhaegar’s location because they were in cahoots.

• Tywin revealed Rhaegar’s location to Aerys because he needed Rhaegar to end the war and install Cersei as queen.

• Tywin would have preferred that Rhaegar won the Trident, but he got his way regardless—via Robert.

• Shout-out to @nanother for first pointing Tyrion’s quote out to me.

1. Tyrion jokes that Tywin is heartened by Rhaegar’s death. And asks if Pycelle betrayed Rhaegar.

Lord Tywin unrolled the leather, smoothing it flat. “Jaime has left us in a bad way. [snip] Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. [snip] To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners.”

Tyrion smiled crookedly. “Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead.”

“I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion,” Lord Tywin Lannister said. Game, Tyrion IX

“How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?” He knew where it ended. Clash, Tyrion VII

2. How would this be possible? Tywin and Rhaegar were in cahoots for at least 7 years before Rhaegar’s death. And both blatantly cheated for power.

A: The Plot to Crown Cersei

• Aerys was openly hostile and insulting to Tywin.

• But Tywin is drop dead sure he can marry Cersei to Rhaegar—he promises Cersei. Presents her to Rhaegar. Instructs Gemma to prep and dress Cersei for her formal betrothal.  Feast, Cersei V

• How can Tywin possibly be so certain? He and Rhaegar planned the match behind Aerys’ back.

• Evidence? All of Tywin’s preparations for the betrothal announcement.

B. Cheating wins Tourneys and Makes Great Pre-Coup PR.

• Lannisport Tourney for Viserys’ Birth: the best Lannister fighters all lose to Rhaegar—making the new crown prince look fabulous. Tywin set it up—by telling “the flower of the west” to throw their matches to Rhaegar.

• Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west. Feast, Cersei V

• Yes—Rhaegar also beat Barristan at Tywin’s Tourney—he only lost to Arthur Dayne. But all the other fighters he beat? Tywin’s men. At a tourney where Tywin plans to betroth Rhaegar to Cersei. Amazing!

• Would Rhaegar need help to win? Yes. Not even Barristan, trying to please Dany, will say that Rhaegar was a fabulous fighter. “Puissant,” yes. But not “peerless,” as Dany believes. A 17-year-old who can beat 14 fabulous Lannisters. . . that sounds like he might be seen as fabulous by Barristan—nope. Tywin got his men to throw to Rhaegar.

• Barristan knows that Rhaegar was a cheat: he thinks that losing to Rhaegar at Harrenhal was “unknightly”—that he should’ve been a “better knight.” What’s unknightly about losing a fair fight? Nothing. But throwing a fight? Definitely unknightly.

• Rhaegar cheated at Harrenhal. Because cheating worked at Lannisport.

C. Plotting to Depose and Prophesy

• Why would Tywin help Rhaegar like this? Tywin wants to depose Aerys for revenge and power. Getting Rhaegar on his side and married to Cersei is an excellent step. Making sure his Crown Prince ally looks wondrous to the people, especially compared to Aerys? Another key step.

• Why would Rhaegar go along with this? He’s in full “prophecy-chasing” mode—he’s devoted himself to learning to fight for the express purpose of fulfilling something in a book. No way he wouldn’t want someone as rich, powerful, and tactically clever as Tywin on his side, especially since Aerys is falling apart. And especially since Rhaegar is willing to cheat.

3. The Alliance Lives on at Duskendale—Planning Kinslaying and Kingslaying.

• Aerys refuses the proposed marriage and humiliates Tywin—but that didn’t end Rhaegar and Tywin’s “alliance.” We see them plot at Duskendale.

• Rhaegar’s a wannabe patricide: he goes along with Tywin’s kingslaying plan at Duskendale, never objecting to Tywin’s plan or provocative statements.
  • Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. “He may or he may not,” Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, “but if he does, we have a better king right here.” Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar. World Book: The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

• Rhaegar and Tywin aren’t just cheats in cahoots. They’ll kill to get their way.

4. So how did Tywin “betray” Rhaegar? Location, Location, Location.

• Tyrion’s list makes his context clear: Pycelle’s actions led to those men’s deaths or near deaths.
  • “How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?” He knew where it ended. Clash, Tyrion VII

• Rhaegar? What action could Pycelle (Tywin’s lackey) take to get Rhaegar killed? Betray Rhaegar’s location.

• If Rhaegar and Tywin were “allies” during Robert’s Rebellion (as they clearly were at Lannisport and at Duskendale), they would have been communicating.

• Both sit out the war on purpose—waiting for the opportune moment. That requires coordination and communication.

• Did Rhaegar know? Possibly—this was likely their plan so that Rhaegar could play hero at the Trident. But Tywin could have sped up the timeline.

• Tywin has his own agenda: get Aerys dead and marry Cersei to the next king—whoever that king is. He prefers Rhaegar, but he’ll take either one. Thus, the fight between Rhaegar and Robert needs to happen to get Tywin his revenge and power.

• If Tywin betrays Rhaegar’s position, it sets up Aerys to order Rhaegar home (via Hightower), and bring the fight to a head. Cersei will either marry Rhaegar (after Elia has an “accident”) or Robert (if Rhaegar fails).

• Pycelle “serves” Aerys—but he really serves the Lannisters. Feeding Aerys Rhaegar’s location via Pycelle couldn’t be that hard.

5. THUS: Tyrion’s comments suggest that he knows or at least suspects that Pycelle and Tywin got Rhaegar killed. One very clear way to achieve this? Betray Rhaegar’s location, a location Tywin knew because he and Rhaegar were “allies” in their attempts to kill Aerys. Yes, Tywin would have preferred that Rhaegar won. But he still achieved his goal with Rhaegar dead. Sometimes cheaters prosper—until they’re punctured in a privy.

[Bernie Mac]

I think you may be overcomplicating the storyline. Tywin betrayed both father and son when he came to Kings Landing under the guise of an ally and then captured the city and had Rhaegar's children (viciously) murdered.

Rhaegar's location was not a secret, 40,000 armies in enemy territory rarely are. Nor does it seem likely that he'd be sending the exact location of his whereabouts to Twyin and that he'd still be there when Tywin received the message and then sent message to Robert's camp.

 

Tywin is still a betrayer with or without your theory, it seems needless and unnecessary and with all parties dead, something that even if true would never be revealed.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Rhaegar's location was not a secret, 40,000 armies in enemy territory rarely are. Nor does it seem likely that he'd be sending the exact location of his whereabouts to Twyin and that he'd still be there when Tywin received the message and then sent message to Robert's camp.

My understanding of the OP is that @Sly Wren is proposing that Tywin revealed the location of the ToJ to Aerys, not Rhaegar’s whereabouts to Robert immediately before the Trident. 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think you may be overcomplicating the storyline. Tywin betrayed both father and son when he came to Kings Landing under the guise of an ally and then captured the city and had Rhaegar's children (viciously) murdered.

Rhaegar's location was not a secret, 40,000 armies in enemy territory rarely are. Nor does it seem likely that he'd be sending the exact location of his whereabouts to Twyin and that he'd still be there when Tywin received the message and then sent message to Robert's camp.

1. No--I mean Tywin "betrayed" Rhaegar's locale to Aerys by feeding it to Pycelle. We don't know how secret Rhaegar's pre-Trident locale was. But it makes little sense that Aerys had to send Hightower to fetch Rhaegar if Rhaegar's locale was well known and if Rhaegar was happily cooperating with his dad.

2. Tywin crossed Aerys, yes. But he and Rhaegar had been planning to depose Aerys for years--to kill and depose Aerys. Really seems like the "best plan" was that Rhaegar would win the Trident and Tywin would take Aerys--and that hopefully Aerys would have a fatal accident before Rhaegar got back. There's no way Tywin got to King's Landing as fast as he did if he started marching after the Trident finished--he was marching according to plan before the battle was done.

3. Rhaegar was on board with this--he left Jaime with his father. The youngest, most overwhelmed of the KG. And Tywin's son--that's who Rhaegar left with Aerys. Makes sense--he would be banking on Jaime choosing to support Tywin over Aerys (whom Jaime despised and feared). No idea if Rhaegar really thought Jaime would kill Aerys, but there's no chance whatsoever he would have minded.

4. Tywin was playing both sides--he would secure the city for Rhaegar is Rhaegar won, for Robert if Robert won. Though I do think Elia and her kids might have ended up dead either way--Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen. Pretty sure Elia and her kids would have had an "accident" one way or another.

Quote

Tywin is still a betrayer with or without your theory, it seems needless and unnecessary and with all parties dead, something that even if true would never be revealed.

All fair--but it does explain how Rhaegar got "found out" by Aerys. And fills in some of Rhaegar's character an intent. He was a ruthless plotter, not the romantic ideal Dany and Cersei believe he was.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

My understanding of the OP is that @Sly Wren is proposing that Tywin revealed the location of the ToJ to Aerys, not Rhaegar’s whereabouts to Robert immediately before the Trident. 

Yup!

[S. D]

But why would Barristan have such a high opinion of Rhaegar if he knew he was a cheater?

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, S. D said:

But why would Barristan have such a high opinion of Rhaegar if he knew he was a cheater?

Does Barristan think cheating on spouses a particularly bad point? Does he think such an action invalidates other qualities he admires in people? 

Is it possible that you place a higher worth on fidelity that nobles in their society did? Or Barristan does?

[S. D]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does Barristan think cheating on spouses a particularly bad point? Does he think such an action invalidates other qualities he admires in people? 

Is it possible that you place a higher worth on fidelity that nobles in their society did? Or Barristan does?

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about him losing the joust to Rhaegar willingly.

[Orm]

27 minutes ago, S. D said:

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about him losing the joust to Rhaegar willingly.

I think he didn't, in the show DVD'S Barri B says he didn't throw it and wished he had won....

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, S. D said:

But why would Barristan have such a high opinion of Rhaegar if he knew he was a cheater?

I'm not sure his opinion of Rhaegar is actually all that stellar.

In his convo with Dany (where he's hiding as Arstan), Barristan really equivocates on Rhaegar's abilities as a warrior--will NOT say Rhaegar was awesome, even with Jorah standing there, fanboying like a teenager. ETA: Which is weird--why bother equivocating? Rhaegar's dead. Seems like something's up with Barristan's take on Rhaegar.

There's even a decent case to be made that he's implying that Jorah's story about how Jorah "won" Lynesse is a lie.

In that scene, Barristan's praise of Rhaegar is that he is "dutiful, able, single-minded,"  so smart the maesters are surprised, etc. He's certainly not attacking Rhaegar. But he's not gushing either.

Then, in Dance, where we get Barristan's POV, he does say that Rhaegar would be a finer king than Jahaerys, Aerys, and Robert. But. . . that's not exactly a sky high bar.

Don't get me wrong--I do think Barristan thinks well of Rhaegar. But if Rhaegar cheated to make a show--at Lannisport and at Harrenhal--Barristan's take on Rhaegar as shown in the books would hold.

43 minutes ago, Orm said:

I think he didn't, in the show DVD'S Barri B says he didn't throw it and wished he had won....

Did they change the rules re: discussing the show in the book forum? Honestly asking--I've been away for a bit.

But the show's take on all of this . . . seems like we should take it with a large grain of salt.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Does Barristan think cheating on spouses a particularly bad point? Does he think such an action invalidates other qualities he admires in people? 

Is it possible that you place a higher worth on fidelity that nobles in their society did? Or Barristan does?

I don't think Barristan holds it against Rhaegar--especially in comparison to Aerys, Robert, and Jahaerys.

[Orm]

13 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Did they change the rules re: discussing the show in the book forum? Honestly asking--I've been away for a bit.

I wasn't discussing it. Just putting it out there......

 

13 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

But the show's take on all of this . . . seems like we should take it with a large grain of salt.

Yes, we should......

 

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

that Rhaegar would be a finer king than Jahaerys, Aerys, and Robert. But. . . that's not exactly a sky high bar.

And the only competition in there is Robert. Since Jehearys was sickly in his duration and Aerys was a royal prick and then a mad-cunt....

I never understood why people take this to be proof that Rhaegar would be a great king....

For me, Barristan tries very hard to kiss his ass. Not saying that he lies. But he romanticises it.....

 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

4. Tywin was playing both sides--he would secure the city for Rhaegar is Rhaegar won, for Robert if Robert won. Though I do think Elia and her kids might have ended up dead either way--Tywin wanted Cersei to be queen. Pretty sure Elia and her kids would have had an "accident" one way or another.

Did Tywin arrange Lyanna's death or did he know something hat disqualified her to be Queen?? Because unless he knew about Lyanna's impending death, supporting Robert to crown Cersei doesn't seem likely.

 

 

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

• How can Tywin possibly be so certain? He and Rhaegar planned the match behind Aerys’ back.

   

• Evidence? All of Tywin’s preparations for the betrothal announcement.

How does this make sense?? The bethrothal was not in Rhaegar's hands to make it happen, if Tywin was so sure should be because he had some sort of understanding with Aerys, Rhaegar's opinion one the matter was  very inmaterial as Aerys would prove.

 

 

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

• Would Rhaegar need help to win? Yes. Not even Barristan, trying to please Dany, will say that Rhaegar was a fabulous fighter. “Puissant,” yes. But not “peerless,” as Dany believes. A 17-year-old who can beat 14 fabulous Lannisters. . . that sounds like he might be seen as fabulous by Barristan—nope. Tywin got his men to throw to Rhaegar.

   

•  

Fighting and jousing had very little in common. That Rhaegar was an amazing jouster doesn't automatically make him an amazing fighter.

So it's perfectly possible that Rhaegar was just that great of a jouster.

 

 

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

• Barristan knows that Rhaegar was a cheat: he thinks that losing to Rhaegar at Harrenhal was “unknightly”—that he should’ve been a “better knight.” What’s unknightly about losing a fair fight? Nothing. But throwing a fight? Definitely unknightly.

   

• Rhaegar cheated at Harrenhal. Because cheating worked at Lannisport.

Does he now?? I don't remember him thinking that, just lamenting not being good enough that day to stop Rhaegar, that it's interesting. Do you have a quote??

 

 

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Rhaegar’s a wannabe patricide: he goes along with Tywin’s kingslaying plan at Duskendale, never objecting to Tywin’s plan or provocative statements.

 

• Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. “He may or he may not,” Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, “but if he does, we have a better king right here.” Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar. World Book: The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

That is indeed likely to have happened.

 

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

• If Tywin betrays Rhaegar’s position, it sets up Aerys to order Rhaegar home (via Hightower), and bring the fight to a head. Cersei will either marry Rhaegar (after Elia has an “accident”) or Robert (if Rhaegar fails).

But Robert wants to marry Lyanna and he's pretty fixated and outspoken on that. So why would Tywin give Robert any type of support if Robert precisely is going to turn Cersei down??

 

And why is Tywin informing Aerys about his child's whereabouts  a betrayal?? Rhaegar seemed to act as if it was God's plan, he'd defeat the rebels and changes would be made.

 

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, Orm said:

I wasn't discussing it. Just putting it out there......

Ah! All good.

10 hours ago, Orm said:

Yes, we should......

Amen.

10 hours ago, Orm said:

And the only competition in there is Robert. Since Jehearys was sickly in his duration and Aerys was a royal prick and then a mad-cunt....

I never understood why people take this to be proof that Rhaegar would be a great king....

For me, Barristan tries very hard to kiss his ass. Not saying that he lies. But he romanticises it.....

Absolutely--especially when you put his quote about Rhaegar's being a finer king in context.

Don't get me wrong--I do think Rhaegar would probably have at least started off better than Aerys. But given his prophecy obsession and his willingness to let the country burn to feed his prophecy obsession, Rhaegar's reign could have gone off the rails right quick.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Did Tywin arrange Lyanna's death or did he know something hat disqualified her to be Queen?? Because unless he knew about Lyanna's impending death, supporting Robert to crown Cersei doesn't seem likely.

1. I do think Tywin had something to do with Lyanna's disappearance. 

2. Tywin was using the war to finally get what he wanted--revenge on Aerys (for years of insults). And making Cersei queen. That's why he helped incite the war and then sat it out until the opportune moment.

3. But Tywin is no fool--he wants Rhaegar to win, but knows that war is unpredictable. So, if Robert won, he'd just support him--which is what he did.

4. As for Lyanna--that's why Tywin would want Lyanna out of the way. See the link in point 1 above. And even if Lyanna survived until the end of the war, pretty sure Tywin would have tried to have her killed to get her out of his way. But I think he tried to have her killed early on--before the war started. Thus making sure she was out of the way no matter the outcome.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

How does this make sense?? The bethrothal was not in Rhaegar's hands to make it happen, if Tywin was so sure should be because he had some sort of understanding with Aerys, Rhaegar's opinion one the matter was  very inmaterial as Aerys would prove.

It makes no sense whatsoever that Tywin would think Aerys would make a deal with him--they'd been feuding for a while at this point. Lots of bitter feelings.

So how on earth does Tywin think Aerys will agree to this betrothal? He had to have assurances from someone and Rhaegar's being on that list makes sense. Pycelle might have been helping, too. But Tywin would need someone close to Aerys helping him convince Aerys to go along with this match.

Because Tywin is no fool--and he knows that he and Aerys are NOT buds at this point. And that Aerys is unpredictable. But he behaves (according to Cersei) as though the betrothal is in the bag. Something is up.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Fighting and jousing had very little in common. That Rhaegar was an amazing jouster doesn't automatically make him an amazing fighter.

So it's perfectly possible that Rhaegar was just that great of a jouster.

1. Yes--fighting and jousting have little in common.

2. But  according to Barristan, jousting seems largely based on luck. In that convo he has with Dany, he insists that fighting well at a tourney is largely based on luck, refusing to argue that Rhaegar was a brilliant fighter, no matter how much Jorah fanboys:

"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm." Storm, Dany I

So, I can't think of anyone other than Cersei and Jorah who's  willing to say Rhaegar was a brilliant jouster. Or are you thinking of something I'm missing?

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Does he now?? I don't remember him thinking that, just lamenting not being good enough that day to stop Rhaegar, that it's interesting. Do you have a quote??

Yes--the quote above undermines the idea that Rhaegar was amazing.

But in the OP, I was referencing Barristan's chapter in Dance:

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Dance, The Kingbreaker

Put it in context with the rest of the chapter: Barristan is thinking about how he has new squires and that they need knighting. But that since he sees himself as soiled, they might be better off without knighting. Then he gives them a speech about how without honor, a man is just a killer, not a knight.

Barristan is looking at his own honor hard--then makes the comment about being a better knight. Losing a fight fairly would not make him a bad knight--it just wouldn't. Especially not considering what he told Dany. It's not set in stone, but it really seems like Barristan thinks something was "dishonorable" about his loss to Rhaegar.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

But Robert wants to marry Lyanna and he's pretty fixated and outspoken on that. So why would Tywin give Robert any type of support if Robert precisely is going to turn Cersei down??

See my response at the start of the post--Tywin plans to support the winner. And he'd happily get rid of Lyanna to follow through with his plans.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

And why is Tywin informing Aerys about his child's whereabouts  a betrayal?? Rhaegar seemed to act as if it was God's plan, he'd defeat the rebels and changes would be made.

The "betrayal" is in quotes--I meant he "revealed" it.

I really doubt that he and Rhaegar hadn't planned the "betrayal" in advance--they were sitting out the war and planning to enter at jsut the right moment.

And I agree with your take on Rhaegar--he was drop dead sure he'd win. Tywin hoped he would, too. But Tywin was planning to "win" regardless of who won the Trident.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

snip

 

 

This still doesn't explain Aerys' actions in all of this, nor Rhaegar's or Lyanna's.

If Rhaegar has been plotting to overthrow Aerys all this time, and Aerys knows or even just suspects this, then why is Aerys protecting Rhaegar now that he has committed an act that would disqualify him as a potential king in the eyes of the realm? Wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to get rid of a troublesome son in favor of his preferred heir? I know he's mad, but he's not stupid. And more to the point, why would either Tywin or Rhaegar think this stunt with Lyanna is a good way to put Rhaegar on the throne, let alone somehow make Cersei a queen (#3)?

Why doesn't R&L come forward with the truth (since the kidnapping story is most certainly a lie) when her family is being executed and war is breaking out all over the land? Are they really this shallow? And I still question how this whole kidnap story got out if it never happened. Who started it, and why?

And now that Rhaegar has lit the match that led to this dire threat to the Targ dynasty, why would Aerys want him in command of an army -- an army that can then be used to depose him once the rebels are taken care of?

 

Plus, I think you overestimate how much Rhaegar and Tywin were plotting together prior to all of this. Tywin made a quip about having another king ready of something happened to Aerys in Duskendale, but that's about the extent of it that's been revealed so far. Tyrion knows nothing about any of this, so it's just as likely that he is implying Pycelle was instrumental in driving the wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar. At Lannisport, remember that Rhaegar is not yet married to Elia nor was he on Aerys' shit list, so Tywin could easily have been trying to curry favor with both Rhaegar and Aerys in order to smooth the betrothal to Cersei. If they really were plotting, and the Tourney at Harrenhal was a chance to bring all of the plotters together, then I can't imagine Tywin not being there -- regardless of Jaime's investiture.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

1. I do think Tywin had something to do with Lyanna's disappearance. 

2. Tywin was using the war to finally get what he wanted--revenge on Aerys (for years of insults). And making Cersei queen. That's why he helped incite the war and then sat it out until the opportune moment.

3. But Tywin is no fool--he wants Rhaegar to win, but knows that war is unpredictable. So, if Robert won, he'd just support him--which is what he did.

4. As for Lyanna--that's why Tywin would want Lyanna out of the way. See the link in point 1 above. And even if Lyanna survived until the end of the war, pretty sure Tywin would have tried to have her killed to get her out of his way. But I think he tried to have her killed early on--before the war started. Thus making sure she was out of the way no matter the outcome.

 

1. How??
2. How did Tywin help to incite the war??
3. If he wants Rhaegar to win... Why not help him??
4. But he had little to do with Lyanna's actual death. And even if he tried to get her killed, that's not a guarantee.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

It makes no sense whatsoever that Tywin would think Aerys would make a deal with him--they'd been feuding for a while at this point. Lots of bitter feelings.

So how on earth does Tywin think Aerys will agree to this betrothal? He had to have assurances from someone and Rhaegar's being on that list makes sense. Pycelle might have been helping, too. But Tywin would need someone close to Aerys helping him convince Aerys to go along with this match.

Because Tywin is no fool--and he knows that he and Aerys are NOT buds at this point. And that Aerys is unpredictable. But he behaves (according to Cersei) as though the betrothal is in the bag. Something is up.

Either Tywin had Aerys's implicit blessing and then Aerys backed off and humiliated him or he had nothing and he was acting on the hopes that Aerys saw how good was the marriage for him.

As Aerys would prove, Rhaegar's opinion on the matter was irrelevant and as such, plotting with Rhaegar would not have got him anything.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

1. Yes--fighting and jousting have little in common.

2. But  according to Barristan, jousting seems largely based on luck. In that convo he has with Dany, he insists that fighting well at a tourney is largely based on luck, refusing to argue that Rhaegar was a brilliant fighter, no matter how much Jorah fanboys:

"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm." Storm, Dany I

 

So, I can't think of anyone other than Cersei and Jorah who's  willing to say Rhaegar was a brilliant jouster. Or are you thinking of something I'm missing?

 

2. Luck indeed... But luck among the best. There is a reason why Robert was never a renown jouster.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--the quote above undermines the idea that Rhaegar was amazing.

But in the OP, I was referencing Barristan's chapter in Dance:

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty … Dance, The Kingbreaker

 

Put it in context with the rest of the chapter: Barristan is thinking about how he has new squires and that they need knighting. But that since he sees himself as soiled, they might be better off without knighting. Then he gives them a speech about how without honor, a man is just a killer, not a knight.

Barristan is looking at his own honor hard--then makes the comment about being a better knight. Losing a fight fairly would not make him a bad knight--it just wouldn't. Especially not considering what he told Dany. It's not set in stone, but it really seems like Barristan thinks something was "dishonorable" about his loss to Rhaegar.

We have Rhaegar's track record and it's indeed impressive. 

Barristan is talking about being a better knight to defeat Rhaegar not that he trew the tilt.

 

 

 

[Orm]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Don't get me wrong--I do think Rhaegar would probably have at least started off better than Aerys. But given his prophecy obsession and his willingness to let the country burn to feed his prophecy obsession, Rhaegar's reign could have gone off the rails right quick.

I think your understating his obsession, stupidity or madness (whatever you wanna call it)....

For the simple fact that he isn't king Largely due to his own actions.... He knew what he was doing would put him at the very least, in so much trouble that he can't Pacify it in his lifetime, let alone doing great kingly stuff....

That's not even considering what the hell he was expecting his certified mad-cunt of a dad would do..... And we are supposed to believe that this emo prince is supposed to be an "intelligent" individual.....

His actions speak otherwise.....

1 hour ago, frenin said:

. Luck indeed... But luck among the best. There is a reason why Robert was never a renown jouster.

According to Cersei Lannister, Bobby B was pretty indifferent if he could or couldn't throw men off horses as a part of showmen ship.....

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

We have Rhaegar's track record and it's indeed impressive. 

Maybe its impressive...

But I figure Rhaegar's position as crown prince (sole Targ prince for more than 15 years) would always make his competition not give their all...

And Considering in the only battle he was ever at, his younger 2nd cousin(who was injured prior to the Trident) moped the floor with him in horse-back, It is pretty hard to give him the benefit of the doubt that he earned his victories....

The only thing which gives him any real credibility is Barri B vouching for him and the wound he managed to give Robert....

But then again Barri B is heavily biased and Bobby B wasn't even that bothered with the wound that he sent his Maestar to treat Barri B....

[Universal Sword Donor]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure Robert of Nedbert bromance fame killed him.

[frenin]

33 minutes ago, Orm said:

According to Cersei Lannister, Bobby B was pretty indifferent if he could or couldn't throw men off horses as a part of showmen ship.....

Indifferent is another way of saying mediocre. 

 

34 minutes ago, Orm said:

Maybe its impressive...

But I figure Rhaegar's position as crown prince (sole Targ prince for more than 15 years) would always make his competition not give their all...

People tend to give their all when they're facing the best, they only tend do otherwise when they're facing mediocre very highborn opponents (a la Valarr) and while we don't know what stick the KG were choosing, the rest of the nobles would have tried to beat Rhaegar.

 

36 minutes ago, Orm said:

And Considering in the only battle he was ever at, his younger 2nd cousin(who was injured prior to the Trident) moped the floor with him in horse-back, It is pretty hard to give him the benefit of the doubt that he earned his victories....

I don't really see the correlation and people tend to use this "on horseback" thing to try and discredit one or the other.

Jousting and battling have very little in common, Robert is never described as being mediocre on horsemanship. As such, Rhaegar being beaten on horseback has little to do with his jousting skills.

 

[Orm]

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Indifferent is another way of saying mediocre. 

Is it? I took it as she expressesing he didn't bother enough in Jousting...

 

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

People tend to give their all when they're facing the best, they

Is he the best, now?

 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

they only tend do otherwise when they're facing mediocre very highborn opponents (a la Valarr) and

Which Rhaegar is. More in fact since he was the sole prince....

 

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jousting and battling have very little in common, Robert is never described as being mediocre on horsemanship. As such, Rhaegar being beaten on horseback has little to do with his jousting skills.

Robert is a 6 feet 6 inch giant. He would have trouble riding horses due to his size...

Robert smashing Rhaegar on horse-back proposes two things. Rhaegar is overstated in his abilities or Robert is understated in his abilities...

I think it's a mix of both....

I don't really know what is the difference between Jousting and charging each other in horse-back (Rhaegar-Robert fight)

But since you say so, I will believe you and rest the case....

 

 

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, Orm said:

Is it? I took it as she expressesing he didn't bother enough in Jousting...

It is, if not he wouldn't joust at all. He was simply bad at it.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Orm said:

Is he the best, now?

One of the best of his time yes. I can only think of Barri B or Dayne having a better record.

 

13 minutes ago, Orm said:

Which Rhaegar is. More in fact since he was the sole prince....

So were Baelor Breakspear or Baelon the Brave. No one cared and give their all.

 

14 minutes ago, Orm said:

Robert is a 6 feet 6 inch giant. He would have trouble riding horses due to his size...

Robert is very tall but he's not the tallest dude around.  Both Gregor and Sandor are taller than him and they are all jousters with renown.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Orm said:

Robert smashing Rhaegar on horse-back proposes two things. Rhaegar is overstated in his abilities or Robert is understated in his abilities...

This is a very dumb take. It has little to do one with another...  Melees, which Robert is an expect at, also have battles on horseback.

 

17 minutes ago, Orm said:

don't really know what is the difference between Jousting and charging each other in horse-back (Rhaegar-Robert fight)

That the latter has a fight in it,  the latter was a melee.