How Tywin Killed Rhaegar: A Tale of Cheats and Plotters

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Orm said:

Given what Bobby B says about the matter,

And what Mr. Martin says about young Bobby B......

Nope..... Not even close.......

 

And yet Ned remembers it this way:

Quote

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until the last crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

And the World Book:

Quote

The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in combat, yet in the end, Baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved greater.

. . .

Lord Robert's wounds prevented him from taking up the pursuit, so he gave that into the hands of Lord Eddard Stark.

So this was no cakewalk for Robert. They clashed repeatedly, Rhaegar gave him a serious wound, but Robert prevailed. One misstep by a horse, one late swing, and it all could have gone differently. That's how close is the margin between victory and defeat.

And again, if Robert had to first fight his way through the likes of Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, he would have been in much worse shape by the time he met Rhaegar.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

snip

Hats off to you Wren. Most people post an OP and then desert the thread while others tear each other apart. You at least stick with it, despite the annoyance of posters who claim their head canon is fact while denying the validity of any and all counter-evidence.

[Orm]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And yet Ned remembers it this way:

And the World Book:

So this was no cakewalk for Robert. They clashed repeatedly, Rhaegar gave him a serious wound, but Robert prevailed. One misstep by a horse, one late swing, and it all could have gone differently. That's how close is the margin between victory and defeat.

And again, if Robert had to first fight his way through the likes of Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower, he would have been in much worse shape by the time he met Rhaegar.

Not saying it was a cake walk.....

Just sayin it wasn't close Either..... Cause Ned also remembers

Quote

Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds

Now no matter how much a Generous guy Bobby B was, one doesn't simply give away his Medicare if he's severely injured or barely made it out alive.....

Coupled that with the fact that he was injured prior to the Trident at Ashford, he wasn't already a hundred percent at the Trident.....

So, nope Rhaegar wasn't beating Robert  at all.... He was outmatched in every way.

I seceded that if the loyalist were underhanded enough to send two legends after one, then Bobby B might have been made a martyr that day. I also kinda agree with your desperate attempt idea on Rhaegars part aswell.....

Just disagreeing it had any chance of success.......Oh wait a minute, that's what happened in canon.....

 

[R2D]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Hats off to you Wren. Most people post an OP and then desert the thread while others tear each other apart. You at least stick with it, despite the annoyance of posters who claim their head canon is fact while denying the validity of any and all counter-evidence.

Aren't you the poison is in the pie guy? 

[corbon]

4 hours ago, Orm said:

Coupled that with the fact that he was injured prior to the Trident at Ashford, he wasn't already a hundred percent at the Trident.....

Thats was months and months ago, possibly 8 or 9, and he fought (an fucked a whole brothel with that wound at Stony Sept) and killed at least 6 men including Rhaegar's former squire at BotB, probably 6-8 months previous to the Trident. Its very unlikely that Robert was feeling any "ill effects" from his Ashford wound at the Trident.

4 hours ago, Orm said:

So, nope Rhaegar wasn't beating Robert  at all.... He was outmatched in every way.

Thats hyperbole and does you no service., Better to follow what the text says.
Robert won in the end, but it was a hard fight, Rhaegar wounded him first and only Robert's strength and ferocity - not skill, horsemanship, tactics or anything else, gave him the final win.

Ned tells us that they were on their destriers, and they circled and clashed again and again. Rhaegar wounded Robert first, but Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest with his warhammer in the final killing blow.
We also have Dany's vision, when Rhaegar "sank to his knees in the water', which seems to indicate the end of the fight being on foot. Maybe, maybe not. Ned doesn't mention them getting down, but his commentary doesn't remove that possibility. 
Then we have Jorah's comment, that "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." What was it about the fight that was noble or honourable on Rhaegar's side?

Combine these three accounts, and we potentially have a scenario where they fought for a while mounted, circling and clashing repeatedly, then Rhaegar wounded Robert and perhaps knocked him off his horse. Rhaegar foolishly, nobly, honourably, dismounted to continue the fight and on foot in the stream Robert was more effectively able to use his strength ad the giant warhammer.
I don't know if thats the full story, but it fits all the accounts we have and fits the known strengths and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly.

[Orm]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats was months and months ago, possibly 8 or 9, and he fought

Do you have quotes for the Timeline or are you pulling this out of your head-canon?....

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

an fucked a whole brothel with that wound at Stony Sept

This would be a hyperbole....... Simply because it's a tall tale, only the whores speak of it and If Bobby B went on to fuck an entire Brothel and Then went on to mop the floor with Myles Mooton with his Right hand and swatted Jon Con across the narrow sea with his left hand then "Roberts Peaches" would be the single most popular song in westeros.....

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

and killed at least 6 men including Rhaegar's former squire at BotB, probably 6-8 months previous to the Trident. Its very unlikely that Robert was feeling any "ill effects" from his Ashford wound at the Trident.

And this tells you nothing about Robert Baratheon's(prime) prowess as a warrior?.... He was injured....

If he's inhuman enough to not feel it, it's his credit.... The fact is we know Rhaegar went in fresh and Robert didn't.... And Robert smashed him nonetheless.....

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Robert won in the end, but it was a hard fight, Rhaegar wounded him first and only Robert's strength and ferocity - not skill, horsemanship, tactics or anything else, gave him the final win.

Quote? What's the point with your fanfics?

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Ned tells us that they were on their destriers, and they circled and clashed again and again. Rhaegar wounded Robert first, but Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest with his warhammer in the final killing blow.
We also have Dany's vision, when Rhaegar "sank to his knees in the water', which seems to indicate the end of the fight being on foot. Maybe, maybe not. Ned doesn't mention them getting down, but his commentary doesn't remove that possibility. 

Again, what does fanfics prove? What service does it do to you?

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Then we have Jorah's comment, that "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." What was it about the fight that was noble or honourable on Rhaegar's side?

We know, what Mr Martin meant by that comment by Jorah.... I have posted that before.... But why not Again...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://georgerrmartin.com/grrm_merch/king-roberts-warhammer/%23:~:text%3DIn%20his%20youth%20Robert%20Baratheon,Stark%20could%20not%20wield%20it.%26text%3DIt%20was%20his%20war%20hammer%20Robert%20carried%20that%20day%20on%20the%20river.&ved=2ahUKEwiMq93L2M7rAhVd4zgGHWV8AvgQFjABegQIEBAF&usg=AOvVaw0Aad-0ocbvOGlyCjHNXw2u

Jorah and everybody knew what would happen if Robert and Rhaegar met at single combat.....

What was "noble" and "honourable" on Rhaegars part was that he didn't run away..... Even if a rapist with no respect for law and custom who started the whole mess, he wasn't a coward (only a half-assed one).....

7 hours ago, corbon said:

don't know if thats the full story, but it fits all the accounts we have and fits the known strengths and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly.

Are you assuming this under the assumption, that Robert isn't a good horse man? If so you are wrong as was I....

Cause he isn't one.... According to Ned Stark, Robert was a "Horned God" at horseback.....

Mr Martin also made it clear that it was on horseback.....

It ended in horseback.... If Rhaegar had done what you are proposing, then his in-world ass lickers would be screaming that from Dorne to the wall.....

 

7 hours ago, corbon said:

Combine these three accounts, and we potentially have a scenario where they fought for a while mounted, circling and clashing repeatedly, then Rhaegar wounded Robert and perhaps knocked him off his horse. Rhaegar foolishly, nobly, honourably, dismounted to continue the fight and on foot in the stream Robert was more effectively able to use his strength ad the giant warhammer.

Quote or fanfic?

[corbon]

43 minutes ago, Orm said:

Quote or fanfic?

Quotes have been provided for much of this already, and more in other threads. If you'd asked more nicely, I'd have made an effort, but this is not worth my time.

 

Your "quote" is on GRRM's blog, but its not written by him. Its just advertising for a cool replica of Bobby B's warhammer. 

Thats ... something. 

[Orm]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Quotes have been provided for much of this already, and more in other threads. If you'd asked more nicely, I'd have made an effort, but this is not worth my time.

I accept your secession..... But I don't know, I also provided the Link where Mr Martin talks about the matter....

He says what I am saying..... But in the next book if it turns out the way what you are saying, fine. I was wrong.....

But if it Turns out Robert was the one who knocked Rhaegar off his horse, Got down from his horse and proceeded to mop the floor with him(which is what I think happened if the fight indeed went on) then I except you to admit it aswell.....

[Orm]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Your "quote" is on GRRM's blog, but its not written by him. Its just advertising for a cool replica of Bobby B's warhammer. 

Thats ... something. 

Is that so? I thought the advertisement for the Warhammer was this,

https://grrm.livejournal.com/203595.html

Noted, that you have to disregard/falsify a signed writing of GRRM on ASOIAF to propose your nonsense....

Now, let's see what Ned says,

Quote

His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. 

Note, that Robert is the only warrior quoted Peerless in the series....

And,

Quote

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god

Apparently he was a horned god on horseback..... 

Oh and also,

Quote

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it

He pretty much says it ended in horseback back after a brief struggle.....

Which is reinforced by,

Quote

if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly

Yeah Robert moped the floor with Rhaegar.....

But I see it is a waste of time talking with someone who would rather think his/her fanfic has more credibility then the Author's canon.....

Edit: Oh And it wasn't cool you edited that so that I may have missed it. But anyways since you ran out off debating options, you obviously have to discredit canon.... Nice try..... But it ain't fooling anyone.....

[Sly Wren]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

I don't consider that evidence

Okay.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

Agreed.
I don't see that as the same. Tytos was acting weakly and weakening, damaging the family. 
I see it as a whole different thing to stand up against that vs ordering dishonourable behaviour, by someone else, for a purely selfish positive gain.

I think that there are things you can do 'defensively', that you can't do 'offensively'. I think most honour systems work this way.

I agree that Tywin is standing up for what he sees as the honor of House Lannister. No question.

The key point: Tywin, starting around age ten, has decided that he gets to say what the honor of House Lannister requires, regardless of tradition, others' definitions or feelings about honor, anything.

He could have dealt with his father privately. He chooses, repeatedly, to do things that humiliate his father because he, teenage Tywin, thinks he is right and that the rest of the Lannisters need to get in line or get out of his way. If not--he'll humiliate even his patriarch.

This is a dangerous precedent for Tywin: he and he alone decides what's right for House Lannister, regardless of the fact that Tytos is still alive. We know he took this definition to move on to committing atrocities with Reyne and Tarbek. And that he didn't curtail this. At all--we see that in his reaction to Tyrion's kidnapping, even though he dislikes Tyrion muchly.

Bottom line: Tywin gets to decide what "honor" is for House Lannister: respect and fear. He clearly doesn't care much for conventional ideas of honor and fair play--the atrocities (before and during the novels) show that. And he will humiliate family members, both publicly and privately, to get his way. And, according to Genna, he got worse as he got older.

Heaven help the family member who crosses this too much--even Tyrion will only go so far, and he's one tough cookie--and an example of how far Tywin will go to assert his idea of the "honor" of House Lannister.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

You've decided he's decided that. Its a goal, yes, but I think you over-emphasise it without evidence for that level.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

Ahh, I guess I wrote the above part a line or two early.  Yes, you are guessing. Educated or not, you don't get to call your guesses evidence. This is not as simple as 'guessing' things that happened (where there is a bit more leniency I guess), this is 'guessing' deep levels of valuation and relativity - far too much IMO, more than can be justified by what is known.

We have Tywin's wanting the marriage for at least 3-4 years before the Tourney, his refusal to give up on the idea, even when publicly humiliated. And the fact that he persists with getting his family onto the throne and holding on to power.

We have his tyrannical measures to assure the dominance and power of House Lannister--Tywin wants to raise House Lannister, dominate his enemies--he clearly sees the Iron Throne as a way to do that. For all of the very obvious reasons.

At the tourney, he clearly orchestrates the "reveal" of his ask. And it's a touchy business: he and Aerys are already into toxic sparring. When Aerys arrives, the smallfolk cheer Tywin twice as much as Aerys (according to the World Book). But--when Rhaegar beats all of those Lannister knights, Aerys cheers and is in a spectacular mood--Rhaegar's dominance gets Aerys out of his toxic anger--if only for a moment.

Given Tywin's clear goal of marrying Cersei to Rhaegar and increasing House Lannister's rise--given what he knows of Aerys--no way Tywin wouldn't know that Rhaegar's defeating his men would puff up Rhaegar and please Aerys. Which it did.

This was a plan.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

I don't agree. Tywin could humiliate, ruin etc Tytos and the mistress and the Reynes and Tarbecks etc because he had public moral rightness on his side. 
He can't do that in this case.
Tywin is a tyrant, but he's not publicly a despotic tyrant. Everything he does has a veneer of respectability over it. Iron hard, yes, but respectable. I don;t think Tywin would ever do what the Freys did, for example - too much damage to the house. There is no respectable cover.

Hence I think this is exactly the sort of thing that Tygett could and absolutely would defy Tywin on - probably.
You could be right too. But I don;t agree that you have remotely enough 'right' to call Tygett's loss evidence he threw the bout, or even would throw the bout.

He doesn't have to do it publicly--we've seen him privately and semi-privately humiliate his family.

And, given what Tyg has seen him do, what Tyg himself helped Tywin do, Tywin may not have had to do anything more than threaten: Tyg knows his brother will do whatever it takes to get his idea of "respect" for House Lannister across, to raise House Lannister as he (Tywin) sees fit.

Tyg might try to fight and "play the game." But Genna says the brothers lose against Tywin when they play the game.

And the fact that Rhaegar's wins against the Lannisters change Aerys' toxic mood (temporarily) as much as they do show that it works perfectly with Tywin's goal. That's too much of a coincidence for a plotting,  determined man like Tywin.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

Agree on the first, don't agree, in the friendliest way possible, on the 'seems' of the second. 

All fair-- it will be cool if it turns out that Lyanna was the knight.

And I absolutely think that the KotLT incident is directly tied to Lyanna's disappearance.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

Agreed. 
I just don't think that a late join in the jousting to secretly reward the admirable KotLT would interfere with those plans. It might even help them in some calculations.

All fair--though I struggle to find much in the text showing us that Rhaegar did things like this.

Books? Check. Plots? Check. Honoring random people without explanation no matter what he thought of their motives and confusing everyone around him? Not so much--but GRRM has left out a LOT when it comes to Rhaegar.

Still, really seems like he'd stick to his original plot--though, as you say, I do think giving that laurel to Lyanna might be part of his plot.

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

What he regrets, is not winning vs Rhaegar. Thats it. Whether that is down to skill or luck or less than honourable behaviour is not known or indicated in any way. Any of these is possible and anything that makes a knight 'better' works. You can't pick or choose one of those options and then call it evidence.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 6:09 PM, corbon said:

No. Thats not what he says or indicates. He regrets not winning that bout, not for himself, but for the consequences. He thinks that if he'd been a better knight, not a more honourable knight, then perhaps things might have been different. Anything that makes a knight better in that one instant works for that, be it skill, luck on the day, or more honourable behaviour and all his other thoughts about honour do not change this simple math.

Okay--as I understand it, our impasse is as follows:

Your argument asserts that since, in Martinlandia, knighthood is determined by skill and honor, Barristan must mean those--and that there isn't enough evidence in the text to say that a knight emphasized one over the other.

My argument asserts that the context of the quote in this particular chapter shows Barristan's particular values--that all his talk of honor is put there to specifically frame his mindset for us and thus show us what he means.

If that's right, we may have to agree to disagree. I take your point about the general, in-world definition.

But I cannot divorce Barristan's quotes about his fight with Rhaegar from the chapter it is in. That context seems very deliberate--I cannot excise the quote from the chapter.

So I can't see a solution until we get the next book.

That said, an excellent debate on this point, my friend!

[Sly Wren]

On 9/3/2020 at 9:17 AM, John Suburbs said:

Hats off to you Wren. Most people post an OP and then desert the thread while others tear each other apart. You at least stick with it, despite the annoyance of posters who claim their head canon is fact while denying the validity of any and all counter-evidence.

Far as I can see, we're all working with some amount of head canon--that's what we do when we read: predict, play, etc.

Only the next books will solve some of these debates, but they are fun to have.

And no point posting if I don't want to play/debate with my ideas.

So, thank you for coming to play.

[John Suburbs]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:08 PM, Orm said:

Not saying it was a cake walk.....

Just sayin it wasn't close Either..... Cause Ned also remembers

Now no matter how much a Generous guy Bobby B was, one doesn't simply give away his Medicare if he's severely injured or barely made it out alive.....

Coupled that with the fact that he was injured prior to the Trident at Ashford, he wasn't already a hundred percent at the Trident.....

So, nope Rhaegar wasn't beating Robert  at all.... He was outmatched in every way.

I seceded that if the loyalist were underhanded enough to send two legends after one, then Bobby B might have been made a martyr that day. I also kinda agree with your desperate attempt idea on Rhaegars part aswell.....

Just disagreeing it had any chance of success.......Oh wait a minute, that's what happened in canon.....

 

Assuming that this exchange took place after Robert had defeated Rhaegar, yes Robert would most definitely send his maester to look after a renowned knight like Selmy who is near death. Robert is conscious and alert, so obviously he is not injured as badly. But none of this means that Rhaegar's defeat was a foregone conclusion. They tilted over and over again, with Rhaegar injuring Robert first -- one misstep, one late swing was all it would have taken. This is just the fact of battle.

The injury at Ashford was a good seven or eight months before the Trident, so it is highly doubtful that it was still plaguing Robert at the Trident. If it was, all the more reason to believe that the Rhaegar had a good shot at beating him.

So sorry pal, but your head canon is wrong. If there was no chance of success, then Rhaegar would never have taken the field.

[John Suburbs]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:37 PM, R2D said:

Aren't you the poison is in the pie guy? 

Am I the guy? I didn't know there was a guy for that. The poison was in the pie, though, but it would be very impolite to derail this thread to launch into that subject.

[Orm]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Assuming that this exchange took place after Robert had defeated Rhaegar, yes Robert would most definitely send his maester to look after a renowned knight like Selmy who is near death.

You mean the same renowned knight who minutes before was going to be executed, but Robert didn't allow it?..... 

Yeah.... any person would have done what Robert did.......

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The injury at Ashford was a good seven or eight months before the Trident, so it is highly doubtful that it was still plaguing Robert at the Trident. If it was, all the more reason to believe that the Rhaegar had a good shot at beating him.

My point was Rhaegar went in Fresh....

Robert didn't...... 

My head-canon (which I admit this one is a head-canon) Rhaegar wasn't beating Robert even if he wasn't a 100 percent......

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But none of this means that Rhaegar's defeat was a foregone conclusion. They tilted over and over again, with Rhaegar injuring Robert first -- one misstep, one late swing was all it would have taken. This is just the fact of battle.

Yeah, But if I were betting I know where my money is going...... The guy who's superhuman....

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So sorry pal, but your head canon is wrong. If there was no chance of success, then Rhaegar would never have taken the field.

Considering my "head-canon" is canon I don't know what your sorry for?...

And Given what Mr Martin wrote regarding the matter of "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly,  Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

I am fairly confident on my "head-canon"......

 

[frenin]

On 9/1/2020 at 2:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

Right--but Brandon's companions are people. And the people at Riverrun (nobles and servants) and anywhere else Brandon could have gone--all of them could be in a position to be spies.

And the only ones that would know their exact whereabouts would be Brandon and his companions, they would know their destination but that's about it.

 

On 9/1/2020 at 2:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

Point is: there are a lot of people plotting at this point in Westerosi history. Some may be allies, but they aren't necessarily altruistic--they have their own agendas.

My overall point: the idea that no one around or near Brandon could betray him or that Tywin or his allies could get a message to him--that's not workable. It's possible.

That said: the books give us very little on this whole incident (Brandon's learning about Lyanna)--so we're all just theorizing. We won't know unless Martin decides to grace us with the next book.

 

The idea that people were working for Tywin because people betray it's not workable either, we're talking about families that we're never told that had an special connection to either the Targs or Rhaegar or Tywin and that would ultimately give their strenght to overthrow Aerys.

 

 

On 9/1/2020 at 2:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

Why? Let's go with your (very plausible) scenario: Brandon hears about Lyanna's disappearance because people claiming to be witnesses ran and told everyone at the inn at the crossroads about it. And then Brandon hears. (Or another similar scenario).

What if the "witnesses" are actively lying? Rhaegar didn't take her at all, etc. What if the witnesses just get it wrong? They didn't see what they thought they saw (like the Purple Wedding).

Point is: if Brandon heard it on the road, it could still be a lie or a mistake.

Fair enough.

 

 

On 9/1/2020 at 2:07 AM, Sly Wren said:

The wiki says this, but I can't find it in the novels or the World Book. Any chance you have it there? The books just say he's going to Riverrun.

Wandering endlessly seems an odd way to get him to the sept on time.

And there are safe roads, unsafe routes, etc. People want to stay close to inns and food, etc. Brandon's route is not innately unknowable for someone who knew what he was doing.

The App says that, they were on their way to get Rickard when they found about it, which means that they could be anywhere between the Golden Tooth and the Neck.

What makes you think that he and his companions would care much about safe/unsafe routes or would not just go to a different inn.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 5:03 PM, John Suburbs said:

So this was no cakewalk for Robert. They clashed repeatedly, Rhaegar gave him a serious wound, but Robert prevailed. One misstep by a horse, one late swing, and it all could have gone differently. That's how close is the margin between victory and defeat.

That it was not cakewalk is quite evident, we have historical sources that support that. Arguing otherwise it's fanboyism.

Yet i don't really remember where it's said that Robert received a serious wound.  Both Ned and Yandel describe it plainly as a wound, and the fact that Robert let Barri to be treated before him and that he arrived to King's landing after Ned, but soon enough for the children's bodies to be recognizable and their blood being still fresh. It puts a question mark on how serious the wound was, which it's just a fan conclussion to the fact that he gave Ned the lead, without taking into account any other evidence.

 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 11:20 PM, corbon said:

Ned tells us that they were on their destriers, and they circled and clashed again and again. Rhaegar wounded Robert first, but Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest with his warhammer in the final killing blow.

We are not told that. We're just told that Rhaegar got to injure Robert, which is there to prove that Rhaegar was no slouch, but honestly nothing else.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 11:20 PM, corbon said:

We also have Dany's vision, when Rhaegar "sank to his knees in the water', which seems to indicate the end of the fight being on foot. Maybe, maybe not. Ned doesn't mention them getting down, but his commentary doesn't remove that possibility. 

I don't think it can be argued that it happened, we have two historical accounts that says that the battle was entirely on horse and never mention them fighting a foot and we have one ethereal vision that mentions the sunk to his knees.

Vision that it's suspiciously similar as to how Dany imagines how the battle was like.

 

Quote

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 11:20 PM, corbon said:

Then we have Jorah's comment, that "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." What was it about the fight that was noble or honourable on Rhaegar's side?

Combine these three accounts, and we potentially have a scenario where they fought for a while mounted, circling and clashing repeatedly, then Rhaegar wounded Robert and perhaps knocked him off his horse. Rhaegar foolishly, nobly, honourably, dismounted to continue the fight and on foot in the stream Robert was more effectively able to use his strength ad the giant warhammer.
I don't know if thats the full story, but it fits all the accounts we have and fits the known strengths and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly.

Nothing, as Jorah's words are simply the moral of the story. Not was an exact  summary od the events. "Rhaegar was all that and he still got beaten and lost everything, don't be like Rhaegar," Which is made evident by his previous sentence.

 

Quote

"My queen," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

The very notion that Rhaegar ¿kinda? lost himself that fight defeats Jorah's intention. In which he's arguing the exact opposite.

It fits neither the accounts, as it clashes directly with Yandel's and Ned's, nor it fits the the known strenghts and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly, because as i've been trying to tell to @Orm, Rhaegar never participated in a melee, either on foot or house, and while Rhaegar was a great jouster, Robert was great at the melee. And melees are also at horse.

 

Quote

Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.

How can it fit the known strenghts of the combatans if they were duelling in a way Rhaegar had never fought before and Robert was an expert at??

 

 

On 9/4/2020 at 7:05 AM, Orm said:

And this tells you nothing about Robert Baratheon's(prime) prowess as a warrior?.... He was injured....

If he's inhuman enough to not feel it, it's his credit.... The fact is we know Rhaegar went in fresh and Robert didn't.... And Robert smashed him nonetheless.....

He's not inhuman... I don't really understand your point. Robert's not the strongest or the most deadly character we've read about.

The Mountain's strenght is described as out of this world and both Barristan and Dayne are Martin's go to warriors.

 

 

6 hours ago, Orm said:

You mean the same renowned knight who minutes before was going to be executed, but Robert didn't allow it?..... 

Yeah.... any person would have done what Robert did.......

Can you explain this please??

[corbon]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Yet i don't really remember where it's said that Robert received a serious wound.  Both Ned and Yandel describe it plainly as a wound, and the fact that Robert let Barri to be treated before him and that he arrived to King's landing after Ned, but soon enough for the children's bodies to be recognizable and their blood being still fresh. It puts a question mark on how serious the wound was, which it's just a fan conclussion to the fact that he gave Ned the lead, without taking into account any other evidence.

Sure. How serious is up for debate and unable to be determined. 
Yet it was enough for Robert to delegate the pursuit, the race to KL, to Ned. When Robert is the one famed for lightning marches and the like, and Robert is the one who will be crowned in KL, the nominal head of the rebellion. Everything we know suggests Robert should have been the one riding madly to KL, but he was wounded and didn't.
How serious? Serious enough to prevent Robert doing Robert stuff. But not serious enough that he couldn't follow behind a few days later and couldn't send his Maester to tend Barristan.

The point? It wasn't a minor scrape. As you say, its really there to show Rhaegar was no slouch, no more. And perhaps to get Ned alone in the throne room finding Jaime...

5 hours ago, frenin said:

We are not told that.

Aren;t we? Thats exactly what we are told - which is not the full story, no doubt but its exactly what we are told.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't think it can be argued that it happened,

I think it can be argued that it happened, it just can't be determined that it happened.
And I didn't say it definitively happened that way, just pointed out that there is a possibility that works with all the accounts and contradicts none.

Another would be, for example, that the entire fight was on horse, when Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest he knocked him off the horse, Rhaegar struggled to stand, but doing so took the last of his strength and he then sank to his knees and died. A bit (only a bit) like Baelor's delayed death when Maegor hit him. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

we have two historical accounts that says that the battle was entirely on horse

They don't say the battle was "entirely" on horse. Only mentioning horseback is one thing, saying it was entirely on horse is different.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

and never mention them fighting a foot and

Agreed. But their wordings do not rule out some portion of the fight being on foot.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

we have one ethereal vision that mentions the sunk to his knees.

Vision that it's suspiciously similar as to how Dany imagines how the battle was like.

Agreed. It might be a 'false' vision - although those visions came from outside her, not her internal thoughts and memories - as evidenced by the blue flower in the ice wall, and probably several other of the visions.
It might also be a real one (the others around it suggest it is either real or a "real in a possible timeline" vision). In which case we need to resolve its apparent conflict with the other accounts - which I think we can.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

The very notion that Rhaegar ¿kinda? lost himself that fight defeats Jorah's intention. In which he's arguing the exact opposite.

I don't see what you are saying in that conversation. Rhaegar lost, yes, thats the point. He was honourable, noble, etc. And he lost. 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

It fits neither the accounts, as it clashes directly with Yandel's and Ned's,

No, there is no direct clash. Neither account rules out part of the combat being on foot. They merely describe the (bulk of the) battle on horseback, and a final blow (which isn't clearly on horse or on foot). For both accounts it is possible that the combatants dismounted prior to the final blow.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

nor it fits the the known strenghts and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly, because as i've been trying to tell to @Orm, Rhaegar never participated in a melee, either on foot or house, and while Rhaegar was a great jouster, Robert was great at the melee. And melees are also at horse.

Melees are ahorse, yes. But they are also a confused mess with little space and many combatants clashing randomly. Thats where Robert excels, where pure strength and ferocity rule over technique and agility and speed.

Robert and Rhaegar had space. They circled and clashed, again and again. In the river, but shallow enough for men to scrabble for rubies, so I would guess between a few inches deep to maybe 1.5 foot or less deep - enough to hamper the horses slightly, but not significantly.
 

Rhaegar was a swordsman, Robert used a two handed hammer - not generally an ideal weapon on horse.
Rhaegar was almost certainly a much better horseman than Robert, though Robert was good enough.
Jousting is about horsemanship, precision and control. I think only the most rabid fanboy wouldn't conceded Rhaegar likely had the edge in those factors over Robert. 
Speed and technique would likely be on his side too, just from the general descriptions of them.

So with the horses splashing in the shallow water, I'd expect Rhaegar to have the edge with his skills, horsemanship, speed, control, and technique. And so its no surprise he gets the first wound in.
But armour is designed to prevent killing wounds, and thats where Robert's advantage comes in. With his weapon, strength, and tactics, he's almost designed to lose a fight, technically, but when it comes down to killing, thats almost irrelevant. Robert only needs one success to end the fight, and Rhaegar's successes are much less likely to end the fight.

I also think that if the water got deeper, so mobility was affected, that would significantly advantage Robert. Who knows if that was a component? It was shallow enough for men to scrabble for rubies where Rhaegar died, but his horse could have carried him back to shallower water, maybe?

Really, this is a bit pointless, speculating the way we are. 
For me the point is that it was a close fight, that could have gone either way. 

 

Ned's Horned God description just means Robert looked spectacular on horseback in all his military finery. Its even the context of its use. Its not a reference to his fighting skills.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

My point was Rhaegar went in Fresh....

Robert didn't...... 

Robert went in just as fresh as anyone else. 

[Orm]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

He's not inhuman... I don't really understand your point. Robert's not the strongest or the most deadly character we've read about.

He is in his prime is referred to as Giant among Princes....

Now you yourself have noted Robert although being a tall guy(6.6) isn't that very tall to be called a giant and there are many others taller than him.... While Mr Martin says Robert was freakishly strong...

So what does it mean?.....

It means 'Giant' is the midieval language for 'Super-human'......

And Yes he(in prime) is the strongest and Deadliest character we hear about....

Given Ned thinks, Robert>Arthur (and everybody else)....

7 hours ago, frenin said:

The Mountain's strenght is described as out of this world and both Barristan and Dayne are Martin's go to warriors.

???Your "But the Mountain" arguement isn't helping your cause....

 But Let's stop with the prevalent and completely fan invented notion that Robert was just some Hulk smash guy. He was easily one of the most skilled warriors of all time....

 

- He's killed or defeated more people in single combat than any other warrior in the entire series, barring possibly Barristan. He's defeated Marq Grafton, Ser Myles Mooton, 5 men at the BoTB, Jon Connington, Lord Fell, Silver Axe Fell, Rhaegar Targaryen, and I'm probably forgetting somebody....

- He was the first man over the wall at Gulltown

- Ned says he's watched Robert kill a thousand boars with a single sure thrust of a spear

- He kills a monstrous boar while blackout drunk, some 112lbs overweight, with his guts hanging out, with a single knife thrust straight through its eye

- He defeated or killed Ser Myles Mooton, Jon Connington, and 5 men at the Battle of the Bells *while wounded and with a sword* and not even his hammer.

- That means Robert is extremely skilled with hammer, sword, spear, and knife. We also know he was an okay jouster, if nothing special, meaning that he's averagely skilled with a lance too. And we know that he fought in melees with either a hammer or an axe, meaning he's also extremely skilled with axes. His favourite past time is also hunting, and that means using a bow. He's not just some brute who's only strong, he's skilled with pretty much every single weapon.

- Eddard remembers Robert literally laughing as he defeated men left and right at the Harrenhal melee

- Likewise, Cersei remembers that when Robert and her visited his Estermont cousins that Robert kicked the shit out of everybody in the training yard

- Robert impaled Rhaegar right through the heart, while dueling in the middle of a river, on horseback, in the midst of a raging battle. That's uncanny accuracy

- Stannis says that Robert won battles at worse than 5:1 odds before. You don't do that just by charging the enemy

- Stannis says that Robert beat him at everything, and in particular fighting

- Robert's won more battles than any other general in the series

- Despite being king and not allowed on the front lines anymore, Robert still managed to perform incredibly valiant and noteworthy deeds in the Greyjoy Rebellion

 

Yeah, Robert was indeed really, really fucking strong. That doesn't mean though that he was just some guy swinging a hammer really hard. There are plenty of characters who can do that, but they won't accumulate anywhere near the deeds or displays of skill that he has. He was obviously enormously skilled too. With that combo of strength and skill he's the most peerless

1 hour ago, corbon said:

 

warrior in the series (funny that he was unbeaten) Ned even called him peerless

 

>His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Rhaegar was a swordsman, Robert used a two handed hammer - not generally an ideal weapon on horse.

Warhammers are one handed weapons.... Robert uses his Warhammer one handed....

Quote

Robert's warhammer was displayed beside an immense iron shield blazoned with the crowned stag of House Baratheon.

Mr Martin quite approved of the drawing in horseback where Robert is using the hammer one handed against Rhaegar with a sword....

What made you think it was two handed? The weight?? This is fantasy..... Robert is very fantasy-esque....

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Ned's Horned God description just means Robert looked spectacular on horseback in all his military finery. Its even the context of its use. Its not a reference to his fighting skills

Fine, it was a weak argument on my behalf.....

But I think I made more than enough points that Robert (prime) is a War God not just in looks but feats aswell....

"Robert went in fresh as anyone"

The texts suggest otherwise and I am not going to argue it again.....

Peace.....

[Orm]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Can you explain this please??

Isn't it explained in the books?....

I was being sarcastic to prove a point.....

[Orm]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

For me the point is that it was a close fight, that could have gone either way.

Yeah sure.....

Cause There is not a single hint of accuracy/control when Some guy rams a bigass spiked hammer in some other guys heart Admist a raging battle on horseback, right?(eye-roll)....

Anyways, the point is Robert was toying with Rhaegar..... Made a show before the  final hammer-blow to the heart......

[Wall Flower]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

 

And the only ones that would know their exact whereabouts would be Brandon and his companions, they would know their destination but that's about it.

 

 

The idea that people were working for Tywin because people betray it's not workable either, we're talking about families that we're never told that had an special connection to either the Targs or Rhaegar or Tywin and that would ultimately give their strenght to overthrow Aerys.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

The App says that, they were on their way to get Rickard when they found about it, which means that they could be anywhere between the Golden Tooth and the Neck.

What makes you think that he and his companions would care much about safe/unsafe routes or would not just go to a different inn.

 

That it was not cakewalk is quite evident, we have historical sources that support that. Arguing otherwise it's fanboyism.

Yet i don't really remember where it's said that Robert received a serious wound.  Both Ned and Yandel describe it plainly as a wound, and the fact that Robert let Barri to be treated before him and that he arrived to King's landing after Ned, but soon enough for the children's bodies to be recognizable and their blood being still fresh. It puts a question mark on how serious the wound was, which it's just a fan conclussion to the fact that he gave Ned the lead, without taking into account any other evidence.

 

 

We are not told that. We're just told that Rhaegar got to injure Robert, which is there to prove that Rhaegar was no slouch, but honestly nothing else.

 

I don't think it can be argued that it happened, we have two historical accounts that says that the battle was entirely on horse and never mention them fighting a foot and we have one ethereal vision that mentions the sunk to his knees.

Vision that it's suspiciously similar as to how Dany imagines how the battle was like.

 

 

Nothing, as Jorah's words are simply the moral of the story. Not was an exact  summary od the events. "Rhaegar was all that and he still got beaten and lost everything, don't be like Rhaegar," Which is made evident by his previous sentence.

 

The very notion that Rhaegar ¿kinda? lost himself that fight defeats Jorah's intention. In which he's arguing the exact opposite.

It fits neither the accounts, as it clashes directly with Yandel's and Ned's, nor it fits the the known strenghts and capabilities of the two combatants perfectly, because as i've been trying to tell to @Orm, Rhaegar never participated in a melee, either on foot or house, and while Rhaegar was a great jouster, Robert was great at the melee. And melees are also at horse.

 

How can it fit the known strenghts of the combatans if they were duelling in a way Rhaegar had never fought before and Robert was an expert at??

 

 

He's not inhuman... I don't really understand your point. Robert's not the strongest or the most deadly character we've read about.

The Mountain's strenght is described as out of this world and both Barristan and Dayne are Martin's go to warriors.

 

 

Can you explain this please??

While Robert sent his own maester to tend Barristan, is there any indication that it was before or instead of the maester treating Robert himself? The rebels were apparently sitting around discussing what to do with Barristan and I can't imagine that occurring while their new king remained untreated. I agree though that it does suggest that Robert's wound wasn't life-threatening to the extent of needing constant care by the maester.