frenin Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 8 hours ago, corbon said: Sure. How serious is up for debate and unable to be determined. Yet it was enough for Robert to delegate the pursuit, the race to KL, to Ned. When Robert is the one famed for lightning marches and the like, and Robert is the one who will be crowned in KL, the nominal head of the rebellion. Everything we know suggests Robert should have been the one riding madly to KL, but he was wounded and didn't. How serious? Serious enough to prevent Robert doing Robert stuff. But not serious enough that he couldn't follow behind a few days later and couldn't send his Maester to tend Barristan. The point? It wasn't a minor scrape. As you say, its really there to show Rhaegar was no slouch, no more. And perhaps to get Ned alone in the throne room finding Jaime... Nothing we're told implies that Robert was not heading to King's Landing. Ned was not sent to march against the city, but to hunt down the defeated loyalist army. It was an accident that remaining loyalists headed to King's Landing. Quote "You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us." Given that Robert arrived soon after Ned, it's completely possible that the plan was for him to march to King's Landing with Ned linking up, somewhere along the way when the loyalist army had for all intent and purposes ceased to exist. 8 hours ago, corbon said: Aren;t we? Thats exactly what we are told - which is not the full story, no doubt but its exactly what we are told. We're told that Rhaegar injured Robert and then he died, we're not told how Rhaegar was before that. 8 hours ago, corbon said: I think it can be argued that it happened, it just can't be determined that it happened. And I didn't say it definitively happened that way, just pointed out that there is a possibility that works with all the accounts and contradicts none. Another would be, for example, that the entire fight was on horse, when Robert hit Rhaegar in the chest he knocked him off the horse, Rhaegar struggled to stand, but doing so took the last of his strength and he then sank to his knees and died. A bit (only a bit) like Baelor's delayed death when Maegor hit him. When there is an account that contradict the others, one of them is not telling the true. Both Ned and Yandel have the fight starting and ending on horse, the vision ¿maybe? not. 8 hours ago, corbon said: They don't say the battle was "entirely" on horse. Only mentioning horseback is one thing, saying it was entirely on horse is different. Sure they do, Quote The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon’s ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar’s chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince’s breastplate. Quote The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until the last crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. Ned specifically says that they clashed upon their destriers again and again, circling and circling until Rhaegar got the killing blow, unless they fought some more after that, the fight started and ended on horseback. 8 hours ago, corbon said: Agreed. But their wordings do not rule out some portion of the fight being on foot. Yes, they do. Ned explicitly. There is no point for either of them to hide the foot part. 8 hours ago, corbon said: Agreed. It might be a 'false' vision - although those visions came from outside her, not her internal thoughts and memories - as evidenced by the blue flower in the ice wall, and probably several other of the visions. It might also be a real one (the others around it suggest it is either real or a "real in a possible timeline" vision). In which case we need to resolve its apparent conflict with the other accounts - which I think we can. Dany's visions were about the things that were, the things that would be and the things that would never be/never were. Dany's vision of Rhaego comes directly from her, it's a vision specifically for her and it's the vision she sees right before seeing the dying prince. 8 hours ago, corbon said: I don't see what you are saying in that conversation. Rhaegar lost, yes, thats the point. He was honourable, noble, etc. And he lost. No, if Rhaegar got beaten because of stupid gallantry, it defeats the purpose of Jorah's words. And Jorah's words are related to Dany using Rhaegar as shield to not buy the slavers, it has the very not that implicit message that sometimes being good isn't enough, that good people also lose to the bad guys. And honestly, as far as i can tell, fighting nobly, valiantly etc, it's everything a knight that isn't Tywin-Roose or in the crowd do. Jaime in the Whispering fought nobly, valiantly and honorably. Scenes like Rhaegar dismounting to find Robert afoot, would be remember by all and you can be sure that at least one would've mentioned it. Just like those who fought for the Black Dragon remember him dismounting to aid Gwayne Corbray. 8 hours ago, corbon said: No, there is no direct clash. Neither account rules out part of the combat being on foot. They merely describe the (bulk of the) battle on horseback, and a final blow (which isn't clearly on horse or on foot). For both accounts it is possible that the combatants dismounted prior to the final blow. It's a direct clash, they both describe the battle as being entirely on horse, they never hint even the battle being on foor. And Ned says that they were circling upon their destriers until Rhaegar got a hole in his chest. 8 hours ago, corbon said: Melees are ahorse, yes. But they are also a confused mess with little space and many combatants clashing randomly. Thats where Robert excels, where pure strength and ferocity rule over technique and agility and speed. Robert and Rhaegar had space. They circled and clashed, again and again. In the river, but shallow enough for men to scrabble for rubies, so I would guess between a few inches deep to maybe 1.5 foot or less deep - enough to hamper the horses slightly, but not significantly. That's how every battle is and how the melee starts, when Brienne and Loras fought, they were fighting just the two of them. Nor i know that's where Robert excels at, or that he was neither agile, fast or technical. Or if that was why excelled at it. That they had space doesn't mean it was not a melee, again, Brienne and Loras had space Quote Rhaegar was a swordsman, Robert used a two handed hammer - not generally an ideal weapon on horse. Rhaegar was almost certainly a much better horseman than Robert, though Robert was good enough. Jousting is about horsemanship, precision and control. I think only the most rabid fanboy wouldn't conceded Rhaegar likely had the edge in those factors over Robert. Speed and technique would likely be on his side too, just from the general descriptions of them. - Robert used a one handed hammer, or at least treated like that and he had prowess enough with it that any handicaps were limited. Given that the hammer is about blunt force, i'd say that it's actually the perfect weapon against a sworsdmen ahorse or anywhere. - We don't know that Rhaegar was better than Robert, let alone he was much better. Nor do we have a way to quantify unless, ofc you're only counting jousting, which is honestly just a fun sport. - I believe the ad hominems do you a disservice. Where's the reason to believe that when it comes to real battle, or anything that was not jousting, Rhaegar had an edge in horsemanship, precision and control?? Robert was a natural warrior like Jaime, what makes you think that he would be less precise or in control?? - Speed and technique would not likely be on his side, so far we can tell. You're not describing Robert, you're describing Gregor Clegane. 8 hours ago, corbon said: So with the horses splashing in the shallow water, I'd expect Rhaegar to have the edge with his skills, horsemanship, speed, control, and technique. And so its no surprise he gets the first wound in. But armour is designed to prevent killing wounds, and thats where Robert's advantage comes in. With his weapon, strength, and tactics, he's almost designed to lose a fight, technically, but when it comes down to killing, thats almost irrelevant. Robert only needs one success to end the fight, and Rhaegar's successes are much less likely to end the fight. I also think that if the water got deeper, so mobility was affected, that would significantly advantage Robert. Who knows if that was a component? It was shallow enough for men to scrabble for rubies where Rhaegar died, but his horse could have carried him back to shallower water, maybe? Really, this is a bit pointless, speculating the way we are. For me the point is that it was a close fight, that could have gone either way. I wouldn't expect Rhaegar to have an edge on anything, to be honest. Nor i think he really got the first wound in, nor i think it matters. It was a close fight, i don't really know how it could've gone either way, you can only do that by hyping up and hyping up Rhaegar, while turning Robert into a brute, which i don't really take seriously. Robert was more experienced, stronger and they were fighting in a terrain in which he had experience at, the odds were simply stacked against Rhaegar. That he still put up a good fight, says very of him, but i think that's about it. 7 hours ago, Orm said: Now you yourself have noted Robert although being a tall guy(6.6) isn't that very tall to be called a giant and there are many others taller than him.... While Mr Martin says Robert was freakishly strong... Because he's very very strong. Not the strongest. Honestly thiss two posts are just the reverse coin of each other, it's very funny. 6 hours ago, Wall Flower said: While Robert sent his own maester to tend Barristan, is there any indication that it was before or instead of the maester treating Robert himself? The rebels were apparently sitting around discussing what to do with Barristan and I can't imagine that occurring while their new king remained untreated. I agree though that it does suggest that Robert's wound wasn't life-threatening to the extent of needing constant care by the maester. Hmm, fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 56 minutes ago, frenin said: No, if Rhaegar got beaten because of stupid gallantry, it defeats the purpose of Jorah's words. Exactly...... But I don't think Corbon would quite smelling his/her own farts, about what was meant by Jorah's words(opposite of he/she thinks lol)...... 1 hour ago, frenin said: Honestly thiss two posts are just the reverse coin of each other, it's very funny. It's also funny you didn't try and dismiss what I said.... Is it cause I am spouting straight facts from the books? And dude accept a loss, you asked why I think Robert is superhuman or inhuman..... I gave reasoning from the Books supported by Mr Martin and the English fu*king Dictionary for Christ Sake and also provided the links for it in this thread..... He's inhuman cause the Text says he is.... Deal with it.... Anyways, my point was in a fight between Captain America(marvel comics) and Achilles (real world legend)..... I would bet my money on Cap winning 99 times out of 100.... Note, Cap= Robert (prime) and Achilles= Arthur(prime)...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Orm said: It's also funny you didn't try and dismiss what I said.... Is it cause I am spouting straight facts from the books? No, it's because it makes no sense arguing with someone that it's arguing with fanboyism. 2 hours ago, Orm said: And dude accept a loss, you asked why I think Robert is superhuman or inhuman..... And straight up tell me that there is a quote were Martin say that he was very strong. Gregor is far stronger and bigger than Robert, he's still human. It matters little what Ned thought Robert could've done in the field, battles are not like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 1 hour ago, frenin said: No, it's because it makes no sense arguing with someone that it's arguing with fanboyism. Heh, Given no counter arguments but an intended "insult".... I accept your secession..... 1 hour ago, frenin said: And straight up tell me that there is a quote were Martin say that he was very strong. You asking for the quote? Sure.... Quote Yes, it is a big hammer. A very big hammer. Going to be heavy as well. I insisted on that. After all, it says right in the book that Robert's warhammer was so huge and heavy that only someone with his own freakish strength could wield it. So I kept telling them, "bigger, bigger."-GRRM And the link to it, https://grrm.livejournal.com/203595.html 1 hour ago, frenin said: Gregor is far stronger and bigger than Robert, he's still human. Gregor is abnormal..... But I figure his strength is proportional to his size.... So not really impressive in any sense that he is literally a giant humanoid.... While Robert has abnormal strength for his size.... Kind of like an ant.... 1 hour ago, frenin said: It matters little what Ned thought Robert could've done in the field, battles are not like that. You don't get it do you? Ned outright calls Robert Peerless... the same guy who fought the lights of Arthur Dayne..... You are right about battles..... You can't win em all.... But, it's hard to argue against math and probability.... Which is on Roberts side along with the text.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 44 minutes ago, Orm said: Heh, Given no counter arguments but an intended "insult".... I accept your secession..... You asking for the quote? Sure.... And the link to it, https://grrm.livejournal.com/203595.html Gregor is abnormal..... But I figure his strength is proportional to his size.... So not really impressive in any sense that he is literally a giant humanoid.... While Robert has abnormal strength for his size.... Kind of like an ant.... You don't get it do you? Ned outright calls Robert Peerless... the same guy who fought the lights of Arthur Dayne..... You are right about battles..... You can't win em all.... But, it's hard to argue against math and probability.... Which is on Roberts side along with the text.... How is a muscled 2 meters man be comparable to an Ant?? Robert is big and very strong, this is normal, nothing Martin tells about him hints that he's inhuman. Ok whatever. I declare myself defeated here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted September 7, 2020 Share Posted September 7, 2020 7 minutes ago, frenin said: How is a muscled 2 meters man be comparable to an Ant?? Should've smelled the troll coming.... 7 minutes ago, frenin said: Robert is big and very strong, this is normal, nothing Martin tells about him hints that he's inhuman. ROFL..... It seems providing a Direct quote about Bobby B by Mr Martin saying that he is one of a kind isn't enough..... Anyways, I am done as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 On 9/6/2020 at 5:36 PM, frenin said: That it was not cakewalk is quite evident, we have historical sources that support that. Arguing otherwise it's fanboyism. I know that, and you know that, but @Orm claims Robert was superhuman and that Rhaegar stood no chance at all. Quote Yet i don't really remember where it's said that Robert received a serious wound. Both Ned and Yandel describe it plainly as a wound, and the fact that Robert let Barri to be treated before him and that he arrived to King's landing after Ned, but soon enough for the children's bodies to be recognizable and their blood being still fresh. It puts a question mark on how serious the wound was, which it's just a fan conclussion to the fact that he gave Ned the lead, without taking into account any other evidence. It was serious enough that Robert did not lead the march to King's Landing himself. He stayed back at the Trident recovering from his wounds. And that's per the World Book, not fan conclusions. No one is claiming Robert is near death. Obviously Selmy was in far worse shape. The point I'm trying to make is that the presence of the three ToJ KG at the Trident could very easily have produced a royalist victory. Proof of this is in the account of the battle itself. The Royalist right was pressing the rebel right hard; Lord Corbray was removed from the field and the rebel forces were scattered and leaderless. If Lyn Corbrey had been a different sort of man or for some reason was not in the battle, then the royalists would likely have prevailed, Robert's left would have fallen and Rhaegar would have been the victor without ever facing Robert himself. One man made the difference here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: I know that, and you know that, but @Orm claims Robert was superhuman and that Rhaegar stood no chance at all. Yeah and that's a ludicrous claim. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: It was serious enough that Robert did not lead the march to King's Landing himself. He stayed back at the Trident recovering from his wounds. And that's per the World Book, not fan conclusions. No, what he did not lead was the pursuit, he did march to King's Landing. Which is why he and Ned arrived in that short timespan Ned was hunting down the routed army and Robert was marching towards King's Landing, it just so happened that most of the routed army was going to King's Landing. Quote Lord Robert’s wounds prevented him from taking up the pursuit, so he gave that into the hands of Lord Eddard Stark. Quote "You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us." Had the fleeing army gone to Duskendale or Storm's End, Ned would have followed them there and would have ignored King's Landing altogether. 1 hour ago, John Suburbs said: No one is claiming Robert is near death. Obviously Selmy was in far worse shape. The point I'm trying to make is that the presence of the three ToJ KG at the Trident could very easily have produced a royalist victory. Proof of this is in the account of the battle itself. The Royalist right was pressing the rebel right hard; Lord Corbray was removed from the field and the rebel forces were scattered and leaderless. If Lyn Corbrey had been a different sort of man or for some reason was not in the battle, then the royalists would likely have prevailed, Robert's left would have fallen and Rhaegar would have been the victor without ever facing Robert himself. One man made the difference here. I know what you're claiming, i don't have a reason to believe that, Barristan was there and he did not change nothing, there is no reason to believe the other would have and wouldn't have been cut down by arrows or trampled after they fell from their horses. The rebel's left falling=/ the rebels losing the battle. And if it had not been Lyn Corbray it could've been no one... or anyone, it could've been Ned, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Silveraxe i don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 12 hours ago, frenin said: Nothing we're told implies that Robert was not heading to King's Landing. Ned was not sent to march against the city, but to hunt down the defeated loyalist army. It was an accident that remaining loyalists headed to King's Landing. Still. Ned arrived ahead of Robert. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Given that Robert arrived soon after Ned, it's completely possible that the plan was for him to march to King's Landing with Ned linking up, somewhere along the way when the loyalist army had for all intent and purposes ceased to exist. Did he? How soon. A day or two? Long enough at least for the sack to have been completed. The bodies of the Targ children were 'red ruins' but I don;t think that means the blood was still fresh and undried. 12 hours ago, frenin said: We're told that Rhaegar injured Robert and then he died, we're not told how Rhaegar was before that. Exactly. What aren't we told? That Robert wounded Rhaegar. they fought for a while, Rhaegar wounded Robert, Robert finished the bout with a single blow. 12 hours ago, frenin said: When there is an account that contradict the others, one of them is not telling the true. Both Ned and Yandel have the fight starting and ending on horse, the vision ¿maybe? not. No, they don't, you are reading something into the text that is not written. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Sure they do, Quote The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, or by chance—or perhaps by design—they met amidst the shallows of the ford. The two knights fought valiantly upon their destriers, according to all accounts. For despite his crimes, Prince Rhaegar was no coward. Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat, yet in the end, Baratheon’s ferocious strength and his thirst to avenge the shame brought upon his stolen betrothed proved the greater. His warhammer found its mark, and Robert drove the spike through Rhaegar’s chest, scattering the costly rubies that blazed upon the prince’s breastplate. They fought valiantly upon their destriers. [break] Rhaegar wounded Robert. [break] At the end, Robert drove the spike of his warhammer through Rhaegar's chest. During each [break] stuff happened. What exactly, we don't know. Maybe virtually nothing, maybe lots. Its a very brief summary, not a full description. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Ned specifically says that they clashed upon their destriers again and again, circling and circling until Rhaegar got the killing blow, unless they fought some more after that, the fight started and ended on horseback. Not quite. 13 hours ago, frenin said: The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, [break] until the last crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. Same again. The comma is a break, which means there could be more than just them circling on their destriers. This description is even briefer and more simple and coudl easily be leaving out even more than the other does. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Yes, they do. Ned explicitly. Not so. 12 hours ago, frenin said: There is no point for either of them to hide the foot part. Its not 'hiding' anything. Its just a 'normal' conversational shortcut. Even less than conversational. Both descriptions are very brief references, not full descriptions. Remember, I'm not saying this is how it is, just pointing out that it still 'works' within what we are given. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Dany's visions were about the things that were, the things that would be and the things that would never be/never were. Yup. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Dany's vision of Rhaego comes directly from her, it's a vision specifically for her and it's the vision she sees right before seeing the dying prince. No, it doesn't. Rhaego never lived and grew up so she has no 'memory' of what he looked like as a man. Its a thing that could have been but never was/will. Its a vision from the Undying ones, not internal from her. Yes, its a vision tailored to her somehow, but its still from them, not from her own recollections, memories and knowledge. 12 hours ago, frenin said: No, if Rhaegar got beaten because of stupid gallantry, it defeats the purpose of Jorah's words. Dont see it. Agree to disagree. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Scenes like Rhaegar dismounting to find Robert afoot, would be remember by all and you can be sure that at least one would've mentioned it. No, I can't be sure. We have two very very abbreviated accounts. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Just like those who fought for the Black Dragon remember him dismounting to aid Gwayne Corbray. No, that was a significantly expanded description. 12 hours ago, frenin said: That's how every battle is and how the melee starts, when Brienne and Loras fought, they were fighting just the two of them. When Cat came upon the scene there were four left. That fight is actually a perfect example. Loras is swifter and more skilled, Brienne stronger and larger. Loras is clearly winning while on horse, but at the end of the fight they end up on the ground and Brienne wins. 12 hours ago, frenin said: - Robert used a one handed hammer, From where? Nothing I can find in the text suggests this. What I do find is that Robert's hammer was so heavy Ned could barely lift it. 12 hours ago, frenin said: - We don't know that Rhaegar was better than Robert, let alone he was much better. Nor do we have a way to quantify unless, ofc you're only counting jousting, which is honestly just a fun sport. Its more than fun sport. Its a deliberate specific training for war, and 75% of it is horsemanship. 12 hours ago, frenin said: - I believe the ad hominems do you a disservice. I was using your term, I thought. Not about you, about those somewhat less rational. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Where's the reason to believe that when it comes to real battle, or anything that was not jousting, Rhaegar had an edge in horsemanship, Horsemanship is horsemanship. Rhaegar is noted for a skill that has it as its foundation. Robert is not. 12 hours ago, frenin said: precision and control?? Rhaegar was able, above all. The sword was the first weapon he used and he 'knew how to use it'. He is noted by Jaime as a match for the finest lance Jaime knew, Arthur Dayne, and better than even a young Barristan. Despite rarely entering the lists. Why would his sword work be any less good? 12 hours ago, frenin said: Robert was a natural warrior like Jaime, More like half way between Jaime and the Mountain. And more of a natural brawler than a natural warrior. Perhaps. 12 hours ago, frenin said: what makes you think that he would be less precise or in control?? No one ever suggested Robert was precise or controlled. Very strong, very very fierce, big and well armoured and equipped. And loved 12 hours ago, frenin said: It was a close fight, i don't really know how it could've gone either way, you can only do that by hyping up and hyping up Rhaegar, while turning Robert into a brute, which i don't really take seriously. And I think you are doing the reverse. Robert wasn't just a brute like the Mountain. But he's never noted for high levels of skill, control, precision, speed. He's hugely impressive to look at, which is where most of the descriptions end and he's noted for extreme strength and ferocity. Thats it. 12 hours ago, frenin said: Robert was more experienced, Probably 12 hours ago, frenin said: stronger Definitely 12 hours ago, frenin said: and they were fighting in a terrain in which he had experience at Thats just made up bullshit. They fought in a shallow river. I don't see what gives Robert any more experience there than anyone else. 12 hours ago, frenin said: , the odds were simply stacked against Rhaegar. That he still put up a good fight, says very of him, but i think that's about it. I think Brienne vs Loras has a very similar feel - except Brienne uses a morningstar (one handed) instead of a giant warhammer and lacks real ferocity. She sort of replaces the ferocity part with desperation when she gets in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 10 hours ago, corbon said: Still. Ned arrived ahead of Robert. Ned left before Robert. 10 hours ago, corbon said: Did he? How soon. A day or two? Long enough at least for the sack to have been completed. The bodies of the Targ children were 'red ruins' but I don;t think that means the blood was still fresh and undried. He did. Quote Yet, last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy The blood still show badly when they were presented to Robert. It was still fresh. The Sack could have been completed, an hour after Ned arrived or several hours later. 11 hours ago, corbon said: Exactly. What aren't we told? That Robert wounded Rhaegar. they fought for a while, Rhaegar wounded Robert, Robert finished the bout with a single blow. Perhaps because it's not relevant. At the end of the day of the day the wound is only there to hype Rhaegar up, Robert does not need that. It doesn't mean it did not happen. 11 hours ago, corbon said: Yet, last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar’s children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy … the boy I don't know about that, Ned's account it's pretty definitive. 11 hours ago, corbon said: They fought valiantly upon their destriers. [break] Rhaegar wounded Robert. [break] At the end, Robert drove the spike of his warhammer through Rhaegar's chest. During each [break] stuff happened. What exactly, we don't know. Maybe virtually nothing, maybe lots. Its a very brief summary, not a full description. You're the one reading something into the text that ir's not written, since there is no break implied. 11 hours ago, corbon said: Not quite. Same again. The comma is a break, which means there could be more than just them circling on their destriers. This description is even briefer and more simple and coudl easily be leaving out even more than the other does. How the comma is a break?? The narration does not take a break about what they were doing, circling and clashing, clashing and circling, you're introducing an artificial one because you need it to your theory. None of them mention the afoot part as it there is no reason to ignore it. 11 hours ago, corbon said: Its not 'hiding' anything. Its just a 'normal' conversational shortcut. Even less than conversational. Both descriptions are very brief references, not full descriptions. Remember, I'm not saying this is how it is, just pointing out that it still 'works' within what we are given. It is hiding something, that the battle ended up afoot, there is little reason for the on horse be mentioned and the afoot being ignored altogether. It doesn't really work, it means for us to change what we're given and treat it differently. 11 hours ago, corbon said: No, it doesn't. Rhaego never lived and grew up so she has no 'memory' of what he looked like as a man. Its a thing that could have been but never was/will. Its a vision from the Undying ones, not internal from her. Yes, its a vision tailored to her somehow, but its still from them, not from her own recollections, memories and knowledge. Ofc, which is a vision that never was and it can perfectly be a subconscious image of how Dany envisioned her child. The visions that had little to do with Dany are those related to Westeros or to players in Westeros, Rhaego is neither. The visions that could have been are from her regardless. 11 hours ago, corbon said: No, I can't be sure. We have two very very abbreviated accounts. And one of them is from a personwho appreaciates honorable man and foes, a man that would have noted that, since he was a witness. 11 hours ago, corbon said: Its not 'hiding' anything. Its just a 'normal' conversational shortcut. Even less than conversational. Both descriptions are very brief references, not full descriptions. Remember, I'm not saying this is how it is, just pointing out that it still 'works' within what we are given. Expanded?? That is the first description we have about the battle, the accounts about the Trident are diverse enough to form our own expanded description, yet there is still nothing there. 11 hours ago, corbon said: When Cat came upon the scene there were four left. That fight is actually a perfect example. Loras is swifter and more skilled, Brienne stronger and larger. Loras is clearly winning while on horse, but at the end of the fight they end up on the ground and Brienne wins. And i doubt that people made space for Rhaegar and Robert. Soon enough it was a duel with enough space to maneuver. Seems to me like a perfect false comparative. Loras would have outmatched Brienne either on foor or ahorse, Brienne tackles Loras off his horse and holds him on the ground. Nor we can say that Rhaegar is more skilled and swifter. 12 hours ago, corbon said: From where? Nothing I can find in the text suggests this. What I do find is that Robert's hammer was so heavy Ned could barely lift it. No, I said that because of the description of the battle in the world book. But it's never noted whether it was two handed or one handed. Logic dictates one handed or he could not fight and ride, let alone hold a shield, at the same time, but you have a point here. 12 hours ago, corbon said: Its more than fun sport. Its a deliberate specific training for war, and 75% of it is horsemanship. It seems like a fun sport to me, nor i see the specific training for war. You could argue that a melee is, and that's still a fun sport, yet i very much doubt how jousting is a deliberate specific training for war. Unless it's a 100%, numbers are pretty much irrelevant. 12 hours ago, corbon said: Horsemanship is horsemanship. Rhaegar is noted for a skill that has it as its foundation. Robert is not. Horsemanship is horsemanship, Rhaegar is noted as a good jouster, he is not noted as a great jouster, which we can extrapolate that he was a good enough horseman that excelled at everything else... or not. Of Robert we know that he was an indifferent jouster, but that can mean that he sucked at horsemanship, and given how much he likes to ride i very much doubt that, or that he sucked at everything else. Either way is beyond conclusive and it's a biased assumption. 12 hours ago, corbon said: Rhaegar was able, above all. The sword was the first weapon he used and he 'knew how to use it'. He is noted by Jaime as a match for the finest lance Jaime knew, Arthur Dayne, and better than even a young Barristan. Despite rarely entering the lists. Why would his sword work be any less good? Because a sword is not a lance. I've only seen Jorah sucking up to the man and that's about it, the one that says that Rhaegar was a match for Dayne is not Jaime but Cersei... And neither Cersei nor Jaime ever saw young Barristan joust, relatively young perhaps. 12 hours ago, corbon said: More like half way between Jaime and the Mountain. And more of a natural brawler than a natural warrior. Perhaps. Because of the size?? What is the difference between a brawler than a warrior and from where are you getting this exctly?? 12 hours ago, corbon said: When Cat came upon the scene there were four left. That fight is actually a perfect example. Loras is swifter and more skilled, Brienne stronger and larger. Loras is clearly winning while on horse, but at the end of the fight they end up on the ground and Brienne wins. And when did someone suggest that Rhaegar was precise or controlled?? Or is this just because of the jousting?? 12 hours ago, corbon said: And I think you are doing the reverse. Robert wasn't just a brute like the Mountain. But he's never noted for high levels of skill, control, precision, speed. He's hugely impressive to look at, which is where most of the descriptions end and he's noted for extreme strength and ferocity. Thats it. Nor did i say he was. I'm saying that Rhaegar was never noted for that and you have no problem to give him all those qualities to level the field. 12 hours ago, corbon said: Probably Had Rhaegar ever fought before the Trident?? 12 hours ago, corbon said: And I think you are doing the reverse. Robert wasn't just a brute like the Mountain. But he's never noted for high levels of skill, control, precision, speed. He's hugely impressive to look at, which is where most of the descriptions end and he's noted for extreme strength and ferocity. Thats it. Anyone else?? No, just Rhaegar. They fought in a melee style, which Robert had experience at, and they were fighting to death, in which Rhaegar had no experience before. 13 hours ago, corbon said: I think Brienne vs Loras has a very similar feel - except Brienne uses a morningstar (one handed) instead of a giant warhammer and lacks real ferocity. She sort of replaces the ferocity part with desperation when she gets in trouble. That's wishful thinking, Loras would have defeated Brienne in either situation, which is why Brienne made sure that he never got up to his feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 20 hours ago, frenin said: Yeah and that's a ludicrous claim. No, what he did not lead was the pursuit, he did march to King's Landing. Which is why he and Ned arrived in that short timespan Ned was hunting down the routed army and Robert was marching towards King's Landing, it just so happened that most of the routed army was going to King's Landing. Had the fleeing army gone to Duskendale or Storm's End, Ned would have followed them there and would have ignored King's Landing altogether. I know what you're claiming, i don't have a reason to believe that, Barristan was there and he did not change nothing, there is no reason to believe the other would have and wouldn't have been cut down by arrows or trampled after they fell from their horses. The rebel's left falling=/ the rebels losing the battle. And if it had not been Lyn Corbray it could've been no one... or anyone, it could've been Ned, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Silveraxe i don't know. Regardless, it was the wounds that caused Robert to do this, and it was "Ned's Starks van" bearing down on KL, meaning Robert was behind, moving at a slower pace. He wasn't mortally wounded like Selmy, but he was wounded, and not just a mere scratch. So since there is no suggestion that Robert had wounded Rhaegar before he killed him, then it's fair to say that Rhaegar was more than holding his own as they "circled and clashed, again and again." So again, we arrive at the same place: Robert is not a superhuman and his victory at the Trident was not assured. It could easily have turned out very differently. It wasn't just anyone, though, it was Corbray. He was there, he had the personality to accomplish such a feat, he was the one man who made the difference. We could just as easily say that someone on the Dornish side could have done the same thing (someone like Arthur Dayne, perhaps?). So my point is not to say this or that would have or could have happened, it's that one man can indeed make a difference in a battle of thousands, and yet Rhaegar leaves three of the most renowned knights in the land who stood the highest chance of making a difference at the Trident. But I've been on this thread for so long that I don't even remember why I was making that point in the first place, so I'll sign off now. Thanks for the chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 10 hours ago, frenin said: It doesn't really work, it means for us to change what we're given and treat it differently. I don't agree, the cases have been made, we're circling needlessly here now. 10 hours ago, frenin said: Ofc, which is a vision that never was and it can perfectly be a subconscious image of how Dany envisioned her child. The visions that had little to do with Dany are those related to Westeros or to players in Westeros, Rhaego is neither. The visions that could have been are from her regardless. No. The visions are from the Undying. Not from her. We have no reason to 'separate out' the 'could have been' and 'never were' and 'were' and 'will be'. They all come from the same source in the same way. And the blue flower growing in a wall of ice proves they are not from her internal ideas. She has no concept what thats about. 10 hours ago, frenin said: Expanded?? That is the first description we have about the battle, the accounts about the Trident are diverse enough to form our own expanded description, yet there is still nothing there. A couple of one-liners does not a duel describe. 10 hours ago, frenin said: No, I said that because of the description of the battle in the world book. But it's never noted whether it was two handed or one handed. Logic dictates one handed or he could not fight and ride, let alone hold a shield, Thats not logic, at least not informed logic. Two handed weapon wielders throughout our own history have ridden, fought horsed, and held shields. 10 hours ago, frenin said: at the same time, but you have a point here. 10 hours ago, frenin said: It seems like a fun sport to me, nor i see the specific training for war. Then you should read a bit more historical relevant things. 10 hours ago, frenin said: Horsemanship is horsemanship, Rhaegar is noted as a good jouster, he is not noted as a great jouster, Yes he is. Quote "He knows his duties, and there's no better lance—" "You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him He's noted as a match for the best there was. And his record proves it. 2-1 vs Dayne, 2-1 vs Selmy. Not beaten by anyone else. 10 hours ago, frenin said: Of Robert we know that he was an indifferent jouster, but that can mean that he sucked at horsemanship, and given how much he likes to ride i very much doubt that, or that he sucked at everything else. Either way is beyond conclusive and it's a biased assumption. Heh, I think its you who is biased in the assumption department. Rhaegar was a great jouster. That requires horsemenship first and control and precision are primary components in order to hit the right location with the end of your lance. By your own words, Robert was an indifferent jouster, which might be due to poor horsemanship (I doubt it, he still did well in the melee and riding is the sort of thing he would like). or lesser control/precision. Its likely other factor as well, but we those are the clues we have, Anyway, enough if this, we've both said our piece (and as I look at the title of the thread, somewhat hijacked it, sorry all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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