The Ethics of Lady Stoneheart's Revenge

[Megorova]

1 minute ago, Seams said:

With all due respect, please stop.

I already did.

[Seams]

From a symbolism point of view, we have a few clues about what may come next for Brienne and Jaime.

1) Shit for honor / river run.

Jaime describes himself as having "shit for honor" when he knocks over the bucket of his own waste in the dungeon at Riverrun. This is part of a larger motif that associates Lannisters with shit - the bad smell associated with Tywin, the joke about Tywin shitting gold, Tyrion being smeared with pig shit in the ship's cabin he shares with Penny. Jaime tells us that a privy trench has been located on the spot where he took his king's guard oath to Aerys.

Brienne is associated with water: Tarth is called the Sapphire Isle because it is surrounded by clear blue water. She and Jaime engage in one-on-one combat at a bridge over a river before they are captured by Vargo Hoat's men. She and Jaime have a memorable scene in a shared bath.

Diverting a river or a river changing course is a motif in ASOIAF: Tywin diverts a river to drown House Reyne; the river near the inn at the crossroads diverts course at some point so it no longer runs close to the inn; House Manderly relocates from the Reach to the North; The Shy Maid probably (imho) navigates through a flooded oxbow which is why it passes the Bridge of Dream twice. The dam in The Sworn Sword provides another example.

One of Tyrion's notable accomplishments is clearing out the sewers and drains at Casterly Rock. We don't know how he accomplished this, but he claims that the drainage was never so efficient before he was assigned this task by Tywin. There is a fair amount of Odysseus allusion in Tyrion's travels in Essos (Cersei = Circe; Penny = Penelope) so we can probably assume that Tyrion used an Augean Stables strategy to clean out the Casterly Rock drains, involving diverting a river to sweep out years of accumulated horse shit.

I suspect that the symbolism indicates that Brienne will somehow wash away Jaime's soiled honor. We already saw evidence for this influence in Jaime's so-called redemption arc in the published books. It might be that Brienne as water was not flowing water until she swore fealty to Catelyn, the river character. What I don't know is whether Brienne will cleanse Jaime or drown him. If she does drown him, we have seen a number of people who are revived after drowning - both among the Ironborn and in cases such as Patchface, Lady Stoneheart and Ser Davos Seaworth.

2) Jaime's dream.

From the wiki:

Quote

One night, Jaime has a bizarre fever dream that he and Brienne are trapped in the dank caverns beneath Casterly Rock. He sees the shades of the other knights of the Kingsguard as well as Prince Rhaegar, come to judge him for killing Aerys. After the fire of his sword goes out, Brienne’s continues to burn, defending him from the shades.

In this "watery cavern," the dream version of Cersei leaves Jaime in the dark until he picks up the pale flaming sword that dream Tywin has given to him. Brienne arrives, takes up a sword and it also flames blue and silver. Jaime describes an island in a "sea of darkness" and Brienne tells him he could climb on her shoulders to reach a tunnel mouth and escape. The "guttering" of flames on Jaime's sword but continued burning of Brienne's sword seems like a clear indication that the "shit for honor" approach is coming to an end but the "Oathkeeper" era will now light the way.

After waking, Jaime notes that there is no place like that beneath Casterly Rock. He determines to turn back and rescue Brienne from the Brave Companions.

Aside from the water and "island in the stream" imagery (the shades of the king's guard are the river, flowing on either side of Jaime), this relates to Catelyn because of the Hollow Hill headquarters of the Brotherhood without Banners and the weirwood stump on which Jaime rests his head while dreaming. Jaime's dream takes place in an Underworld setting similar to the Underworld hideout of the BwB. Catelyn is not a fan of weirwoods, but she was responsible for bringing Tyrion to the Eyrie where Lysa passed judgment on him from a weirwood throne and the BwB leader also occupies a throne made of tree roots. As Catelyn and as Lady Stoneheart, she seeks the return of the sword Ice that belonged to her husband and that her son, Robb, wanted sent to Riverrun. The swords in Jaime's dream seem to allude to Oathkeeper, made from Ice, as that is the sword Tywin gave to Jaime and Jaime passed along to Brienne.

Tyrion wore a shadowcat skin before he was imprisoned at the Eyrie and he recovered the pelt just before his trial: the idea of a cat skin cloak could symbolize that "Cat" Tully was protecting him. If Jaime's dream is comparable to Tyrion's trial at the Eyrie, Catelyn's presence could be implied.

Note: In Jaime's dream, his right hand has been restored. In a lot of the symbolism, Roose Bolton represents Jaime's right hand: both Roose and Jaime's hand slay a king and Roose conveys Jaime's regards as he slays Robb. This obviously relates to Catelyn as the POV that brought us the Red Wedding and led to the birth of Lady Stoneheart.

3) Penny tree

Some of what we know about Pennytree comes from Dunk's hedge knight mentor, Ser Arlan of Pennytree. We get some interesting details from Jaime's POV just as Brienne shows up to persuade him to help rescue the maiden in distress. I believe Pennytree is an entrance to the Underworld. If Jaime's dream was insufficient to tell us where he and Brienne are headed, the Pennytree location of their rendezvous underscores the likelihood that they have a quest ahead that takes them to the Underworld.

 

[HoodedCrow]

Does Ladystoneheart know that if she had Brienne and Jaime, she would have both halves of Ice, right? Gendry could repair it. Then what?

[kissdbyfire]

27 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Does Ladystoneheart know that if she had Brienne and Jaime, she would have both halves of Ice, right? Gendry could repair it. Then what?

She wouldn’t. The half Jaime got he gave to Brienne, Oathkeeper. The other half Tywin gives to Joffrey as a wedding gift, Widow’s Wail. 
 

@Seams, FWIT, my money is on washing not drowning. And I think the process has started already. 

[HoodedCrow]

Oh yes, thanks. Where is Widow’s wail? I haven’t reread lately. Well there goes that idea:)

Lots of forks in the river, crossroads, deaths in the river lands.

 

 

[Nevets]

I am not a fan of vengeance for vengeance's sake, so Red Wedding 2.0 holds little appeal.  I am reminded of a line from the pilot of "Battlestar Galactica".  Humanity has been obliterated by the Cylons, and the military commander wants to continue the war.  The president is like, "The war is over.  We lost."  That's the way I feel about the Riverlands.  The war is over, and my side lost.  ( I am a Stark fan).  Time to accept reality and move the fuck on.  Continuing the fight gets more people killed for little or no gain.

As to RW2 itself, does everybody think Daven Lannister is a complete idiot?  It sure seems like it.  He is as capable as we are of seeing that his wedding at Riverrun is an incredibly inviting target for the rebels.  Security will be very tight; very heavy, very sober, and downright paranoid.  anyone who thinks Tom of Sevenstreams is going to be able to open a door for his buddies to enter through is engaged in wishful thinking.  They will all be locked and guarded.  Any attack will likely lead to a BwB defeat.  

That is not to say that some guests or participants won't be killed going to or from Reverrun.  That is entirely possible.  But a massacre inside the castle?  Nah!

Jaime won't help with that, either.  He won't go against his family, especially on something like this.  You can threaten him, Brienne, anybody, he won't do it.  I can see him helping to free the Frey prisoners though.  "I'm Jaime Lannister, these are my men, I'm here to take them into custody"  Might even work.  But knowing GRRM, it probably won't.  

I have a suspicion that Jaime will die sooner rather than later.  Unless he is the valonqar, he has nothing he is really necessary for, and we're overdue for a big, unexpected death.

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Never mind.

[Darth Sidious]

33 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I am not a fan of vengeance for vengeance's sake, so Red Wedding 2.0 holds little appeal.  I am reminded of a line from the pilot of "Battlestar Galactica".  Humanity has been obliterated by the Cylons, and the military commander wants to continue the war.  The president is like, "The war is over.  We lost."  That's the way I feel about the Riverlands.  The war is over, and my side lost.  ( I am a Stark fan).  Time to accept reality and move the fuck on.  Continuing the fight gets more people killed for little or no gain.

As to RW2 itself, does everybody think Daven Lannister is a complete idiot?  It sure seems like it.  He is as capable as we are of seeing that his wedding at Riverrun is an incredibly inviting target for the rebels.  Security will be very tight; very heavy, very sober, and downright paranoid.  anyone who thinks Tom of Sevenstreams is going to be able to open a door for his buddies to enter through is engaged in wishful thinking.  They will all be locked and guarded.  Any attack will likely lead to a BwB defeat.  

That is not to say that some guests or participants won't be killed going to or from Reverrun.  That is entirely possible.  But a massacre inside the castle?  Nah!

Jaime won't help with that, either.  He won't go against his family, especially on something like this.  You can threaten him, Brienne, anybody, he won't do it.  I can see him helping to free the Frey prisoners though.  "I'm Jaime Lannister, these are my men, I'm here to take them into custody"  Might even work.  But knowing GRRM, it probably won't.  

I have a suspicion that Jaime will die sooner rather than later.  Unless he is the valonqar, he has nothing he is really necessary for, and we're overdue for a big, unexpected death.

 

 

(LIKE)

You and I are not usually on the same page, Nevets.  As you say, you are a Stark fan and I am a Daenerys Targaryen fan. 

In this instance, this one particular post, only this post, I can agree with a lot of what you said.  Vengeance is usually paid for by the blood of the little people, the part-time farmers-turned-soldiers who do most of the fighting and the dying when the noble families quarrel.  Perhaps this is what the Targaryen siblings saw prior to their conquest and wanted to make life better for the peasants.  Fighting is fine if the long-term benefits outweigh the human toll.  There is always a price.  Ellaria Sand knows.  There is no evidence that says life for the peasants will be better under a Tully restoration compared to a river land run by Baelish and Walder.  Both are capable and able men who, to me, are likely to better the Tullys.  

Good Evening Nevets

[Seams]

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

As to RW2 itself, does everybody think Daven Lannister is a complete idiot?  It sure seems like it.  He is as capable as we are of seeing that his wedding at Riverrun is an incredibly inviting target for the rebels.  Security will be very tight; very heavy, very sober, and downright paranoid.  anyone who thinks Tom of Sevenstreams is going to be able to open a door for his buddies to enter through is engaged in wishful thinking.  They will all be locked and guarded.  Any attack will likely lead to a BwB defeat.  

Jaime thought he had good security at Riverrun, yet Brynden Tully managed to escape:

"He did swim," said Edmure, sullenly. He had the same blue eyes as his sister Catelyn, and Jaime saw the same loathing there that he'd once seen in hers. "We raised the portcullis on the Water Gate. Not all the way, just three feet or so. Enough to leave a gap under the water, though the gate still appeared to be closed. My uncle is a strong swimmer. After dark, he pulled himself beneath the spikes."

And he slipped under our boom the same way, no doubt.

(AFfC, Jaime VII)

Granted, now that the portcullis has been identified as the means by which Blackfish escaped, that particular weak point in the defenses will probably not be used for a new invasion. But we know that Winterfell and Maegor's Holdfast have secret tunnels and doors known only to longtime residents. It would not surprise me if there are additional secret doors at Riverrun where Blackfish and/or Lady Stoneheart can direct castle invaders.

Another option is that invaders will slip in with deliveries of food for the wedding feast. The Hound and Arya used this ruse and Brienne accompanied an egg delivery for the Tarly / Mooton wedding at the gate of Maidenpool.

16 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Vengeance is usually paid for by the blood of the little people, the part-time farmers-turned-soldiers who do most of the fighting and the dying when the noble families quarrel.  ...  There is no evidence that says life for the peasants will be better under a Tully restoration compared to a river land run by Baelish and Walder.  Both are capable and able men who, to me, are likely to better the Tullys. 

I think this counts as evidence that the small folk fared exceptionally well under Edmure's leadership:

Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

...

That night the castle rang to the sounds of celebration. "Riverrun!" the smallfolk shouted, and "Tully! Tully!" They'd come frightened and helpless, and her brother had taken them in when most lords would have closed their gates. Their voices floated in through the high windows, and seeped under the heavy redwood doors.

(ACoK, Catelyn V and VI)

Edmure is particularly beloved by the smallfolk because he made an extra effort to keep them safe.

I suspect that the smallfolk of the Riverlands will help the anti-Frey and anti-Lannister forces to gain entry to Riverrun for the purposes of Red Wedding 2.0. It may be as you point out that they will suffer a disproportionate share of the casualties during the conflict. (Because GRRM has set up a parallel with the flooding metaphor associated with the Reynes of Castamere, the description of the floating voices coming through a window and seeping under doors foreshadows that the nature of the slaughter at Red Wedding 2.0 might be a Rains of Castamere 2.0.)

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Edmure is particularly beloved by the smallfolk because he made an extra effort to keep them safe.

I suspect that the smallfolk of the Riverlands will help the anti-Frey and anti-Lannister forces to gain entry to Riverrun for the purposes of Red Wedding 2.0. It may be as you point out that they will suffer a disproportionate share of the casualties during the conflict. (Because GRRM has set up a parallel with the flooding metaphor associated with the Reynes of Castamere, the description of the floating voices coming through a window and seeping under doors foreshadows that the nature of the slaughter at Red Wedding 2.0 might be a Rains of Castamere 2.0.)

This is gorgeous work, noting the flooding metaphors. Perfect!

Yes--Edmure has built up his people to want to do this.

I've never been fully sold on Red Wedding 2.0, but this point--this works.

[James Steller]

4 hours ago, Nevets said:

 

I have a suspicion that Jaime will die sooner rather than later.  Unless he is the valonqar, he has nothing he is really necessary for, and we're overdue for a big, unexpected death.

 

Oh, I’d welcome that kind of death. Especially because then Tyrion will be the valonqar after all. Cersei created her own worst enemy. That was something I always liked about Greek mythology or Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort’s self fulfilling prophecy; the whole reason the dooming prophecy came true is because you tried to prevent it from happening. Cersei would have nobody to blame but herself. Plus I want Tyrion to become the monster that everyone thinks he is. And Cersei fears Tyrion more than anyone else, so I want Tyrion to be the one who kills Cersei.

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Granted, now that the portcullis has been identified as the means by which Blackfish escaped, that particular weak point in the defenses will probably not be used for a new invasion. But we know that Winterfell and Maegor's Holdfast have secret tunnels and doors known only to longtime residents. It would not surprise me if there are additional secret doors at Riverrun where Blackfish and/or Lady Stoneheart can direct castle invaders.

Another option is that invaders will slip in with deliveries of food for the wedding feast. The Hound and Arya used this ruse and Brienne accompanied an egg delivery for the Tarly / Mooton wedding at the gate of Maidenpool.

Any secret passages at Winterfell and Maegor's lead through and around the castles, but not outside, so far as we know.  If there were passages going outside at Winterfell, they would have been utilized by now.

Delivery people and the like may be able to get in, but they won't be armed.  And the armory will probably be super heavily guarded.  I also expect significant measures taken against poisoning as well.  It's certainly possible they could make a go of it, but I think it would be a bloody mess on all sides if so.

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Oh, I’d welcome that kind of death. Especially because then Tyrion will be the valonqar after all. Cersei created her own worst enemy. That was something I always liked about Greek mythology or Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort’s self fulfilling prophecy; the whole reason the dooming prophecy came true is because you tried to prevent it from happening. Cersei would have nobody to blame but herself. Plus I want Tyrion to become the monster that everyone thinks he is. And Cersei fears Tyrion more than anyone else, so I want Tyrion to be the one who kills Cersei.

Tyrion is certainly a logical possibility, but there are others as well.  A self-fulfilling prophecy would serve her right, though.  I wouldn't even hold it against Tyrion.  She is well deserving of any death she receives at this point.  Self fulfilling prophecy is one reason that I think the younger more beautiful is Margaery.  She will cast Cersei down out of pure self-defense.  She has already taken Joffrey and tommen away from her, by murder and love, respectively.

 

 

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

anyone who thinks Tom of Sevenstreams is going to be able to open a door for his buddies to enter through is engaged in wishful thinking.  They will all be locked and guarded.  Any attack will likely lead to a BwB defeat.  

That is not to say that some guests or participants won't be killed going to or from Reverrun.  That is entirely possible.  But a massacre inside the castle?  Nah!

Tom is a commoner, thus when not attending feasts or celebrations, to entertain guests, he eats in the kitchen with servants and other commoners, not in the castle's great hall with the masters. Thru the kitchen he has access to food and water supply. So he can add there a poison, or a sweetsleep. Or even simpler - during the wedding he can approach the guards of the gates, and offer them a cup of wine to honor the newlyweds. What harm is there to drink just one cup? Also it would be disrespectful towards both Lannisters and Freys if the guards will refuse.

This sort of ruse I have seen in movies and read in books dozens of times. And it always works. So Jaime's participation or assistance isn't necessary.

10 hours ago, Nevets said:

Delivery people and the like may be able to get in, but they won't be armed.  And the armory will probably be super heavily guarded. 

BwB can get into the castle's grounds together with other wedding attendants, and to mingle with smallfolk. They and Tom can use the same trick as Bael the Bard - to bring women with them, supposedly to entertain guards. And when the guards will be distracted, either to knock them out, or to give them wine with sweetsleep. When the guards at the armory will be dealt with, they can take their uniforms, and clothe their own people in it. Then the women can take the weapons out of the armory, mingle with other people at the castle's grounds, and to pass weapons to BwB, that were waiting for them amongst other guests. Like it was done in Robin Hood movie.

I think that, most likely, Jaime won't even be in Riverlands, when the wedding will be held. So he won't be participating in whatever BwB will be doing at that wedding at Riverrun. BwB already have an access to the castle, thru Tom, thus they don't need Jaime to get them inside.

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, Seams said:

Jaime thought he had good security at Riverrun, yet Brynden Tully managed to escape:

"He did swim," said Edmure, sullenly. He had the same blue eyes as his sister Catelyn, and Jaime saw the same loathing there that he'd once seen in hers. "We raised the portcullis on the Water Gate. Not all the way, just three feet or so. Enough to leave a gap under the water, though the gate still appeared to be closed. My uncle is a strong swimmer. After dark, he pulled himself beneath the spikes."

And he slipped under our boom the same way, no doubt.

(AFfC, Jaime VII)

Granted, now that the portcullis has been identified as the means by which Blackfish escaped, that particular weak point in the defenses will probably not be used for a new invasion. But we know that Winterfell and Maegor's Holdfast have secret tunnels and doors known only to longtime residents. It would not surprise me if there are additional secret doors at Riverrun where Blackfish and/or Lady Stoneheart can direct castle invaders.

Another option is that invaders will slip in with deliveries of food for the wedding feast. The Hound and Arya used this ruse and Brienne accompanied an egg delivery for the Tarly / Mooton wedding at the gate of Maidenpool.

I think this counts as evidence that the small folk fared exceptionally well under Edmure's leadership:

Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

...

That night the castle rang to the sounds of celebration. "Riverrun!" the smallfolk shouted, and "Tully! Tully!" They'd come frightened and helpless, and her brother had taken them in when most lords would have closed their gates. Their voices floated in through the high windows, and seeped under the heavy redwood doors.

(ACoK, Catelyn V and VI)

Edmure is particularly beloved by the smallfolk because he made an extra effort to keep them safe.

I suspect that the smallfolk of the Riverlands will help the anti-Frey and anti-Lannister forces to gain entry to Riverrun for the purposes of Red Wedding 2.0. It may be as you point out that they will suffer a disproportionate share of the casualties during the conflict. (Because GRRM has set up a parallel with the flooding metaphor associated with the Reynes of Castamere, the description of the floating voices coming through a window and seeping under doors foreshadows that the nature of the slaughter at Red Wedding 2.0 might be a Rains of Castamere 2.0.)

This quote also reminds me of the repeated cowardice of lords like Mooton at Maidenpool or the lord of Saltpans - both closed their gates on the people directly living in their town or village, and normally should be under their protection, while the enemy attacked them. 

Cat believed Edmure a fool for sheltering so many smallfolk, but it made him beloved with them. And the BwB comprises mostly of angry smallfolk, who now have been armed and trained for two years to function as an underground rebellion to protect and avenge themselves, and clearly betray sers and lords who always underestimate the smallfolk. 

When it comes to cautiousness, Jaime is cautious of Edmure's pleased grin and the Blackfish swimming free. But he never suspects Ryman's Queen of Whores, and fully trusts Tom Sevenstrings. The lords and knights may mistrust other lords and knights when it comes to military actions, but they cannot and will not ever imagine smallfolk betraying them for anything more than individual opportunism to cheat someone out of coin. That any Frey or a Lannister will be apprehensive and expect a potential RW2.0 by the BwB such as @Nevets proposes is irrational. Even after the BwB hanged Ryman, they mroe readily believe Black Walder did it, than peasants. Nor do they even know that Catelyn is Lady Stoneheart. At best they are apprehensive about Beric Dondarrion, but they believe him only to be a danger in the woods or the little roads.

I agree once again with the Rayne connection. The Raynes too sheltered all their smallfolk in Castamere. It became everyone's doom. However, with a floating corpse of a "fish house" resurrected into an avenging fury, these mentions of "floating voices seeping through windows", we have another "ghostly" reference... not of ghosts wanting to get out, but in. More and more, it seems to me the RW2.0 will be an event couched into a layer of the Raynes' ghosts (smallfolk included) finally making "Lannisters pay". 

[Sly Wren]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

...

That night the castle rang to the sounds of celebration. "Riverrun!" the smallfolk shouted, and "Tully! Tully!" They'd come frightened and helpless, and her brother had taken them in when most lords would have closed their gates. Their voices floated in through the high windows, and seeped under the heavy redwood doors.

(ACoK, Catelyn V and VI)

Edmure is particularly beloved by the smallfolk because he made an extra effort to keep them safe.

I suspect that the smallfolk of the Riverlands will help the anti-Frey and anti-Lannister forces to gain entry to Riverrun for the purposes of Red Wedding 2.0. It may be as you point out that they will suffer a disproportionate share of the casualties during the conflict. (Because GRRM has set up a parallel with the flooding metaphor associated with the Reynes of Castamere, the description of the floating voices coming through a window and seeping under doors foreshadows that the nature of the slaughter at Red Wedding 2.0 might be a Rains of Castamere 2.0.)

And perhaps not just the flooding--I'm sure someone else has mentioned the Whispering Wood, but I'll bring it up, just in case.

The phrase "words are wind" gets used disdainfully in the novels now and again. But in these novels, "words are wind" is actually kinda terrifying: the cold winds rising, the words of the Night's Watch Oath literally having the power to open the Black Gate--words have power.

In the text above, it sounds like "words are waves," too. But I also wonder about all the potential shades in the woods around Riverrun.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

agree once again with the Rayne connection. The Raynes too sheltered all their smallfolk in Castamere. It became everyone's doom. However, with a floating corpse of a "fish house" resurrected into an avenging fury, these mentions of "floating voices seeping through windows", we have another "ghostly" reference... not of ghosts wanting to get out, but in. More and more, it seems to me the RW2.0 will be an event couched into a layer of the Raynes' ghosts (smallfolk included) finally making "Lannisters pay". 

Yes--the power of the dead and their words--Cat had her final words.

And I do think the above potentially gives us info even on the Others--cold winds, cold waters. The lands speaking out for the injustice of what was done on it. The water speaking out for the injustice done with it.

Yes--it sounds dramatic. But so far, seems the novels are pretty dramatic.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Cat believed Edmure a fool for sheltering so many smallfolk, but it made him beloved with them. And the BwB comprises mostly of angry smallfolk, who now have been armed and trained for two years to function as an underground rebellion to protect and avenge themselves, and clearly betray sers and lords who always underestimate the smallfolk. 

Yup--like Jon insisting on sheltering the free folk. Seeing them through Ghost's eyes (or nose)--that free folk and watchmen all smell the same. All people. The Night's Watch oath is to care for people.

Edmure wasn't a watchman, but he seemed to grasp this basic concept. At least with his small folk. Seems like there's a good chance the rightness of it, the power of his action, could be tied to the magic of the land.

Maybe.

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And perhaps not just the flooding--I'm sure someone else has mentioned the Whispering Wood, but I'll bring it up, just in case.

The phrase "words are wind" gets used disdainfully in the novels now and again. But in these novels, "words are wind" is actually kinda terrifying: the cold winds rising, the words of the Night's Watch Oath literally having the power to open the Black Gate--words have power.

This seems very significant as we are making these connections between House Reyne and Lady Stoneheart's revenge.

Tywin forces a couple of the Tarbeck daughters to join the Silent Sisters as part of his purge of their House. So the voices of the smallfolk seeping and flowing like water at Riverrun could represent the recovered voices of the people silenced by Tywin using the Rains of Castamere.

The other notably silent person in Tywin's orbit is Ser Ilyn Payne. I have seen him as Tywin / Jaime's direwolf equivalent - silent and white like Jon Snow's Ghost. (Perhaps a tangent, but it occurs to me to wonder whether he might be one of the "boy who lived" characters - he has grey/white hair, but is he too old to be Last Lord Tarbeck? Surviving drowning in a well would fit with our growing batch of symbols around drowning, washing away dishonor and rebirth from water.) He was also in a dungeon with a bucket of shit when Jaime asked him to accompany his mission through the Riverlands. I wonder what role he will play in the upcoming scene at Riverrun? As far as we know, he was the last person to use the sword Ice - to behead Ned Stark. We suspect that Lady Stoneheart wants that sword. Here's a thought: what if Ser Ilyn is suspicious of Brienne drawing Jaime off alone from Pennytree? He secretly follows them in somewhat the same way that Pod followed Brienne on her quest. Ser Ilyn saves Jaime when Brienne cannot break her oath - maybe he will slay Lady Stoneheart?

Back to the sound of voices.

At the end of AGoT, Catelyn feels she is the only person who heard and understood the "message" that the Whispering Wood tried to whisper to Robb: quit while you're ahead and go back to the North. She tries to make herself heard but Robb's bannermen shout her down with demands that Robb declare himself King in the North. Soon she loses her voice altogether when she becomes Lady Stoneheart.

Worth noting, too, that Robb's wolf was named Grey Wind. In Dany's dream, the wolf-headed king looks at her with mute appeal.

So words have power is a valid point but I think GRRM may also be telling us that people will find ways to make their voices heard even if you try to silence them.

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Nevets said:

Any secret passages at Winterfell and Maegor's lead through and around the castles, but not outside, so far as we know.  If there were passages going outside at Winterfell, they would have been utilized by now.

Delivery people and the like may be able to get in, but they won't be armed.  And the armory will probably be super heavily guarded.  I also expect significant measures taken against poisoning as well.  It's certainly possible they could make a go of it, but I think it would be a bloody mess on all sides if so.

 

While you and I are often on the same page, reading this bit without going further at yet another risk of looking like an idiot, reminds me of Arya & The Hound's entry to The Twins grounds at least.  I don't dig the idea of a second Red Wedding or Dance of Dragons.  However, reading though all the posts to this precise one reminds me that these suspected events don't necessarily have to happen in even similar ways.   All we really need is a substantial gathering of LSH's targets.  Poison works as well as drowning or private militia attacks or any other awful thing I could dream up.   Instead of these often uninspired conversations about fan ficish ideas like Red Wedding 2.0 maybe we could tweak the terms to better reflect what we really want.   How can LSH get what she wants and is it ok according to the rules in place in Westeros?  After all, LSH is a boogey man type creature.   No one in the story will give a hoot whether her claims are substantiated or not.   They will decisively put her to rest or at least make her cease to exist and move on.  This makes me really ponder all Thoros' strange comments to Brienne and wonder exactly where the seat of power within the BwB really is.   

Wow, Man, I haven't had a moment of clarity like that since the old Brienne thread a million years ago.   Thanks for a breath of fresh air to my brain.  With that brand new look at the subject, how about hills lined with bowsmen just picking the guests off 1 by 1 as they either come or go to said gathering?  

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

This seems very significant as we are making these connections between House Reyne and Lady Stoneheart's revenge.

Tywin forces a couple of the Tarbeck daughters to join the Silent Sisters as part of his purge of their House. So the voices of the smallfolk seeping and flowing like water at Riverrun could represent the recovered voices of the people silenced by Tywin using the Rains of Castamere.

Well done--all the symbolism around the Silent Sisters works here, too. Putting the dead to rest, etc. Knowing the secrets of the dead. Silent--but for how long?

1 hour ago, Seams said:

The other notably silent person in Tywin's orbit is Ser Ilyn Payne. I have seen him as Tywin / Jaime's direwolf equivalent - silent and white like Jon Snow's Ghost. (Perhaps a tangent, but it occurs to me to wonder whether he might be one of the "boy who lived" characters - he has grey/white hair, but is he too old to be Last Lord Tarbeck? Surviving drowning in a well would fit with our growing batch of symbols around drowning, washing away dishonor and rebirth from water.) He was also in a dungeon with a bucket of shit when Jaime asked him to accompany his mission through the Riverlands. I wonder what role he will play in the upcoming scene at Riverrun? As far as we know, he was the last person to use the sword Ice - to behead Ned Stark. We suspect that Lady Stoneheart wants that sword. Here's a thought: what if Ser Ilyn is suspicious of Brienne drawing Jaime off alone from Pennytree? He secretly follows them in somewhat the same way that Pod followed Brienne on her quest. Ser Ilyn saves Jaime when Brienne cannot break her oath - maybe he will slay Lady Stoneheart?

Maybe--but Payne still seems like a night's king figure to me. The mockery/counterfeit of the justice Ned teaches to his boys.

But perhaps that could work in taking out Lady Stoneheart.

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Back to the sound of voices.

At the end of AGoT, Catelyn feels she is the only person who heard and understood the "message" that the Whispering Wood tried to whisper to Robb: quit while you're ahead and go back to the North. She tries to make herself heard but Robb's bannermen shout her down with demands that Robb declare himself King in the North. Soon she loses her voice altogether when she becomes Lady Stoneheart.

Worth noting, too, that Robb's wolf was named Grey Wind. In Dany's dream, the wolf-headed king looks at her with mute appeal.

So words have power is a valid point but I think GRRM may also be telling us that people will find ways to make their voices heard even if you try to silence them.

Thanks for following me down my rabbit hole. But I'll fully understand if you look at the rest of this and laugh at my crazy.

I also think the concept of the voices crying out might tie into what the OP was asking about the justice of Stoneheart: both Beric and Stoneheart only "rise" after the atrocities of the Lannisters (and Freys). Burning and ravaging the land. Breaking guest right. Violating the old laws.

@Voice insists that the Others are a natural response, a miasma sent against human atrocity against the land. (I'm butchering his ideas, but that's at least somewhat on point). I'm not sure I'm sold, and I'm not saying Stoneheart or Beric are Others.

But both only rise after atrocities. And both rise to mitigate and avenge the atrocities. Both have at least some semblance of justice when they do so--a trial, etc. And Beric's men insist that putting prisoners in cages to die is wrong, that they should be executed straight away (like Ned teaches).

My point: is Stoneheart tied to the vengeance of the . . . . land? Does that make any sense? The justice of natural forces, natural consequences--they are not merciful. Stoneheart isn't sweeping through all people, like the Others apparently do, but she is sweeping through all Freys. Like a natural force.

The voices of the dead. The men of the watch even call weather that makes the Wall weep "spirit summer"--ghosts even of the weather and all around. Is Stoneheart part of all these cold winds, these spirits and voices rising from the land?

Maybe.

And @Canon Claude: if I'm, taking your ideas too far afield, just say so and I'll shut up.

[Rondo]

Revenge and payback are family duties taught to lords and ladies.  Lady Stoneheart is the primal side of what is left of Catelyn Stark.  Having compassion, mercy, forgiveness, and consideration for the greater good can make a person give up on revenge.  The ability of a smart, thoughtful to reflect person can moderate the indoctrination of their society but sometimes that is not enough.  LSH and Jon Snow became blunt instruments of revenge because they came up short on those positive qualities.    brain cells have gone into decay.  Her ability to reason and think critically has been impaired.  It's all revenge now. 

Mercy is possible with the right people.  I give you two examples:  Dany choosing to exile Jorah when she could have had him executed.  Arya deciding to forgive Sandor instead of finishing his life.  

[Seams]

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

My point: is Stoneheart tied to the vengeance of the . . . . land? Does that make any sense? The justice of natural forces, natural consequences--they are not merciful. Stoneheart isn't sweeping through all people, like the Others apparently do, but she is sweeping through all Freys. Like a natural force.

Well, we know that Catelyn / Stoneheart represent(s) the natural forces known as rivers.

My thinking right now is that Alyssa's Tears is our best clue. She is the legendary widow / mother of House Arryn who grieves endlessly for her dead family. If her tears can reach the valley floor, she will finally be able to rest. There is a clear parallel between Catelyn and Alyssa dating back to Alyssa's interference in the Trial by Combat between Bronn (representing Tyrion) and Ser Vardis Egen.

Fwiw, I think this is another brown / green fertility ritual: Bronn = brown, Ser Vardis Egen = Greens Adviser - an anagram - representing Jon Arryn's right hand. One of Catelyn's first observations in her first POV in AGoT is of the leaves creating "A thousand years of humus" on the godswood floor, "moist earth and decay." The point may be that the waterfall has to reach the valley floor in order to sweep away the accumulated rotten leaves.

So: waterfall.

Ironically, I think we are seeing Catelyn and Jon Snow going through some parallels, in spite of their enmity. Qhorin led Jon Snow through a waterfall before delivering him to Rattleshirt. Qhorin and Jon also walk through a mountain tunnel - is this the same thing as a stone heart? The weeping Wall may also be part of this metaphor.

I suspect that Jon's direwolf, Ghost, and Catelyn's father, Hoster, are parallels: ghost, host, guest, hotel (and hospital) all come from the same root word. Since guest right is a central factor in Catelyn's fate, I think GRRM has created some converging symbols that will come together in parallel ways.

Rivers are selective in their courses, winding between river banks when nature is in balance. This could fit with your notion that Stoneheart is selective in her path of revenge. When there is too much rain, however, rivers swell and overflow.