The Ethics of Lady Stoneheart's Revenge

[norwaywolf123]

The consensus among the community is that something is going to happen in Riverrun. What i am more uncertain about, is how the events will play out.

How many armed men are around Riverrun now? Can the BWB take on that army? Is it likely that the BWB and it's supporters will be able to take on the Lannister/Frey Army in a similar fashion to to ambush of Stark forces outside the Twins? Perhaps, but i think such a ambush will be dependent on Riverlords double crossing the Lannisters. The change of loyalty could be spurred by fAegons success. 

Perhaps BWB will infliltrate the castle by bypassing the camps outside? Once the soldiers outside understand what is happening, it will be too late, as the BWB shut them out.

Will the army outside leave prior to the "red wedding 2.0"? Doubtfull since it is Daven's wedding and he is the Shield of the West.

Perhaps something will happen after the wedding? Thus Daven might be spared, while Genna and Emmon who stay behind will remain doomed.

 Anyhow something is going to happen which will change Jaime's arc (atleast for some time), or contribute to changing Jaime's arc in concert with another even (perhaps in King's Landing). Genna mentioned for/asked Jaime, "who will protect House Lannister after Tywin". After whatever happens in Riverrun, Jaime will attempt step up.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Well, we know that Catelyn / Stoneheart represent(s) the natural forces known as rivers.

My thinking right now is that Alyssa's Tears is our best clue. She is the legendary widow / mother of House Arryn who grieves endlessly for her dead family. If her tears can reach the valley floor, she will finally be able to rest. There is a clear parallel between Catelyn and Alyssa dating back to Alyssa's interference in the Trial by Combat between Bronn (representing Tyrion) and Ser Vardis Egen.

That works beautifully--am now remembering Sweetsunray's take on Sansa in the Vale.

But yes--the North may be the one that remembers the old gods, but even without the weirwoods, really seems like the Land of Westeros has some "will."

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Fwiw, I think this is another brown / green fertility ritual: Bronn = brown, Ser Vardis Egen = Greens Adviser - an anagram - representing Jon Arryn's right hand. One of Catelyn's first observations in her first POV in AGoT is of the leaves creating "A thousand years of humus" on the godswood floor, "moist earth and decay." The point may be that the waterfall has to reach the valley floor in order to sweep away the accumulated rotten leaves.

So: waterfall.

Interesting.

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Ironically, I think we are seeing Catelyn and Jon Snow going through some parallels, in spite of their enmity. Qhorin led Jon Snow through a waterfall before delivering him to Rattleshirt. Qhorin and Jon also walk through a mountain tunnel - is this the same thing as a stone heart? The weeping Wall may also be part of this metaphor.

Nice! Especially with the potential that the Wall is "living" and "growing." Weeping before the rise of winter.

And, as you say, Jon really seems like he's getting ready to rise and fight for his family (or at least Arya).

5 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect that Jon's direwolf, Ghost, and Catelyn's father, Hoster, are parallels: ghost, host, guest, hotel (and hospital) all come from the same root word. Since guest right is a central factor in Catelyn's fate, I think GRRM has created some converging symbols that will come together in parallel ways.

Rivers are selective in their courses, winding between river banks when nature is in balance. This could fit with your notion that Stoneheart is selective in her path of revenge. When there is too much rain, however, rivers swell and overflow.

Yes on the rivers--Tywin and his brothers violated the rivers' courses with the Reynes. Not sure what to make of the Freys and their relationship to the rivers. But Cat--it's already overflowing to kill any and all Freys. I assume it will overflow even more.

[Seams]

20 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Not sure what to make of the Freys and their relationship to the rivers.

I love it when GRRM leaves us a trail of breadcrumbs to follow. Looking back on the paragraph about the smallfolk Edmure gave shelter within the Riverrun courtyard as well as a little additional context:

Quote

"Can we hope for no help from the south, Lady Stark?" asked Utherydes Wayn, her father's steward. "This charge of incest . . . Lord Tywin does not suffer such slights lightly. He will seek to wash the stain from his daughter's name with the blood of her accuser, Lord Stannis must see that. He has no choice but to make common cause with us."

Stannis has made common cause with a power greater and darker. "Let us speak of these matters later." Catelyn trotted over the drawbridge, putting the grisly row of dead Lannisters behind her. Her brother kept pace. As they rode out into the bustle of Riverrun's upper bailey, a naked toddler ran in front of the horses. Catelyn jerked her reins hard to avoid him, glancing about in dismay. Hundreds of smallfolk had been admitted to the castle, and allowed to erect crude shelters against the walls. Their children were everywhere underfoot, and the yard teemed with their cows, sheep, and chickens. "Who are all these folk?"

"My people," Edmure answered. "They were afraid."

(ACoK, Catelyn V)

The reference to Tywin attempting to wash away a stain may be another Rains of Castamere allusion except Wayn says that Tywin would use blood for this washing situation targeted at Stannis. I suspect that there is overlap or compare / contrast meaning in flowing water and flowing blood. (If blood = red wine, this perhaps explains why Olenna Redwyne and Catelyn, vengeful Lady of the Riverlands, seem to have similar goals in targeting House Lannister.) Some readers suspect that the ancestral sword of House Reyne is the Valyrian steel sword known as Red Rain. Maybe the Red Rain symbolism as well as the red Valyrian steel introduced into the blades of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail confirm the blood/water connection and Tywin's determination to use both blood and rain water to smite his foes.

Note: Generally speaking, I would think that blood is not a good way to wash away a stain because it creates its own stain. The Scottish play established this some years ago. Not sure whether GRRM sees blood washing in the same way. He tells us of Sheira Seastar and Mad Danelle Lothston bathing in blood to retain their beauty and youthfulness.

Catelyn's act here of leaving in her wake "dead Lannisters" (red cloak bannermen who tried to help Jaime escape) may be foreshadowing.

The word that brought me back to this paragraph is "toddler." It seems like a little throw-away line, but GRRM has so far used this word only twice in ASOIAF. I suspect the toddler is a little messenger of death, as Der Tod is the German word for death. Recall also that Jon Snow has a Night's Watch brother named The Toad. The toddler running in front of Catelyn's horse causes her to jerk her reins to avoid him - another wordplay Rains of Castamere reference? At this point, Catelyn is not ready for death (the toddler) but she will not be able to avoid it when she visits House Frey.

(More dead Lannisters: The other use of the word "toddler" in ASOIAF refers to Ermesande Hayford, the infant heiress who wedded Tyrek Lannister before his disappearance. Probably not a good sign for the fate of Tyrek if he is the bridegroom of death.)

But it is Edmure's word "afraid" that may give us a hint about how the Freys fit into anticipated "Red Wedding 2.0" events at Riverrun. If GRRM is giving us a pun on "Frey" and "afraid," the message from Edmure may be that these smallfolk symbolically represent the people who were slaughtered at the Red Wedding: they have been "frey-ed." Usually in ASOIAF, characters use the word "craven" instead of "afraid." It might be that GRRM reserves the use of "afraid" specifically for Frey wordplay situations. If Edmure's people have been "afraid," they may be even more likely to seek revenge against those who Freyed them.

(Another tangent: I have wondered whether GRRM chose the Frey surname as wordplay on "fray," which can refer to both damaged fabric and to the kind of fight that might also be called a "melee." We may be witnessing the indiscriminate "winner takes all" fighting of a melee as we watch the attacks and counter-attacks of Houses Lannister and Stark and their allies.)

We know that Edmure has the power to stop Lannisters from crossing rivers as Robb Stark chewed him out for pushing back the Lannister army at every river crossing when, in fact, Robb's strategy was to let the Lannister forces cross the river so he could cut off their retreat and attack them more effectively. So Edmure may have learned his lesson and he has now "allowed" the Freys and Lannisters to cross into Riverrun where he will trap and slaughter them (with both hands tied behind his back).

One more line of thinking about a parallel:

Quote

"We raised the portcullis on the Water Gate. Not all the way, just three feet or so. Enough to leave a gap under the water, though the gate still appeared to be closed. My uncle is a strong swimmer. After dark, he pulled himself beneath the spikes."

(AFfC, Jaime VII)

Uncle Brynden Tully shares a name with Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers. The "Blackfish" and "Blackwood" names may even underscore the parallel. Here we see Brynden Tully swimming under spikes of the portcullis. When Bran is in his coma and conversing with the three-eyed-crow about flying and/or opening his third eye, he sees himself hurtling toward a frozen wasteland of ice spires below. He thinks:

Quote

He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

(AGoT, Bran III)

Maybe this undermines the idea I just put forward about "afraid" having a unique House Frey association.

The larger point here is that I see a Bran/Bloodraven and Brynden Tully parallel. Bran escapes injury from the ice spires and the Blackfish escapes injury from the spikes of the portcullis. One is above and one is below. I think GRRM is setting up a parallel between Uncle Brynden and Bran, but there is a Patchface-style inversion of up and down, flying and swimming.

And then there's this, as Bran and his traveling companions leave Winterfell after the fire:

Quote

The iron portcullis that closed the Hunter's Gate had been warped so badly by heat it could not be raised more than a foot. They had to squeeze beneath its spikes, one by one.

(ACoK, Bran VII)

With regard to the Freys and rivers, I think we will have to look at the symbolism of The Twins as the castle that both permits and prevents crossing of the river. Clearly another Lannister parallel.

Edit: It may not bode well for House Tully that the sigil of Lord Walder's current wife, Joyeuse Erenford, is a wading bird with a fish in its beak. House Frey may be learning to walk on rivers and to catch fish.

[Sly Wren]

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

The reference to Tywin attempting to wash away a stain may be another Rains of Castamere allusion except Wayn says that Tywin would use blood for this washing situation targeted at Stannis. I suspect that there is overlap or compare / contrast meaning in flowing water and flowing blood. (If blood = red wine, this perhaps explains why Olenna Redwyne and Catelyn, vengeful Lady of the Riverlands, seem to have similar goals in targeting House Lannister.) Some readers suspect that the ancestral sword of House Reyne is the Valyrian steel sword known as Red Rain. Maybe the Red Rain symbolism as well as the red Valyrian steel introduced into the blades of Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail confirm the blood/water connection and Tywin's determination to use both blood and rain water to smite his foes.

Note: Generally speaking, I would think that blood is not a good way to wash away a stain because it creates its own stain. The Scottish play established this some years ago. Not sure whether GRRM sees blood washing in the same way. He tells us of Sheira Seastar and Mad Danelle Lothston bathing in blood to retain their beauty and youthfulness.

Nice!

And fits in with the horror of Bran's vision of the man being sacrificed, the stories of the children of the forest making sacrifices, etc. I do think the land has seen too much fire and blood in pursuit of power. That won't be what washes it clean.

Ned showed us what makes it "clean" in the first chapter of Game--justice, not vengeance. How to get "justice" for all that the Lannisters and Freys have done? Not sure--but I'll be stunned if Stoneheart and others don't engage in more "vengeance" along the way.

And, I, too, think Macbeth is a perfectly solid reference point.

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

The word that brought me back to this paragraph is "toddler." It seems like a little throw-away line, but GRRM has so far used this word only twice in ASOIAF. I suspect the toddler is a little messenger of death, as Der Tod is the German word for death. Recall also that Jon Snow has a Night's Watch brother named The Toad. The toddler running in front of Catelyn's horse causes her to jerk her reins to avoid him - another wordplay Rains of Castamere reference? At this point, Catelyn is not ready for death (the toddler) but she will not be able to avoid it when she visits House Frey.

(More dead Lannisters: The other use of the word "toddler" in ASOIAF refers to Ermesande Hayford, the infant heiress who wedded Tyrek Lannister before his disappearance. Probably not a good sign for the fate of Tyrek if he is the bridegroom of death.)

I did not know this--interesting. Not yet sure what to make of it, but very interesting.

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

But it is Edmure's word "afraid" that may give us a hint about how the Freys fit into anticipated "Red Wedding 2.0" events at Riverrun. If GRRM is giving us a pun on "Frey" and "afraid," the message from Edmure may be that these smallfolk symbolically represent the people who were slaughtered at the Red Wedding: they have been "frey-ed." Usually in ASOIAF, characters use the word "craven" instead of "afraid." It might be that GRRM reserves the use of "afraid" specifically for Frey wordplay situations. If Edmure's people have been "afraid," they may be even more likely to seek revenge against those who Freyed them.

Nice--and I agree on the wordplay.

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

(Another tangent: I have wondered whether GRRM chose the Frey surname as wordplay on "fray," which can refer to both damaged fabric and to the kind of fight that might also be called a "melee." We may be witnessing the indiscriminate "winner takes all" fighting of a melee as we watch the attacks and counter-attacks of Houses Lannister and Stark and their allies.)

Absolutely--I, too, have thought that for a while. Given all that they do, and the fact that GRRM uses the word "fray" throughout the novels, no way he didn't intend that pun.

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

We know that Edmure has the power to stop Lannisters from crossing rivers as Robb Stark chewed him out for pushing back the Lannister army at every river crossing when, in fact, Robb's strategy was to let the Lannister forces cross the river so he could cut off their retreat and attack them more effectively. So Edmure may have learned his lesson and he has now "allowed" the Freys and Lannisters to cross into Riverrun where he will trap and slaughter them (with both hands tied behind his back).

I had completely forgotten that part of Robb's war strategy. Yes--that would make sense.

The practicality of a second red wedding does elude me at times--but the idea of this kind of reckoning against such a wholesale atrocity against old laws--GRRM does show that in the novels and in the Riverlands.

Reminds me of the "reckoning" against Harren--his use of weirwood. The things he did to get Harrenhal built. And it was "answered" eventually, with another atrocity by Aegon.

So, for all my talk of justice above, we may not get too much of it in the Riveralands.

On 9/3/2020 at 8:59 AM, Seams said:

With regard to the Freys and rivers, I think we will have to look at the symbolism of The Twins as the castle that both permits and prevents crossing of the river. Clearly another Lannister parallel.

Edit: It may not bode well for House Tully that the sigil of Lord Walder's current wife, Joyeuse Erenford, is a wading bird with a fish in its beak. House Frey may be learning to walk on rivers and to catch fish.

1. Yes.

2. I think House Frey already did this. The question: what's the consequence for what they did with their knowledge?

[867-5309]

This is standard for a woman of high birth.  She is expected to put family  ahead of the welfare of the peasants and plot to avenge her family.  It isn't right but this is a tale of otherwise normal people making really bad, really selfish decisions which lead to a lot of collateral damage.  It is not ethical and does more damage to Westeros.  But there are people who aren't even zombies who would do what Stoneheart does.  Cersei doesn't need to be zombified to do horrible things for revenge.  Arya still has a pulse and warm blood when she murdered those men in Braavos. 

[TheLastWolf]

12 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Arya still has a pulse and warm blood when she murdered those men in Braavos. 

I'm tired of OFFTOPIC arguments. There are separate threads for everything from Arya Bundy/Bates to GROSSJONARYA/JONSANSA.

This particular statement of yours can be...no...must be, justified somewhere else.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157416-arya-stark-mindless-psycho-killer-or-righteous-avenger/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/156883-aryas-storyline-going-forward/

Hope this helps.

And no links for gross incest ships from ME.